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johnbn
02-07-2004, 09:05 AM
I posted a while back about suspicions I had on online cheating. I described the situations which I was suspicious of and promtly got shot down in flames about how there is "NO CHEATIN IN IL2" was called a noob and told to learn how to fly.(There was also some intelligent replies to my post which I appreciated.)
Well since then it has come to light about the speed hack cheat (which is consistent with what I was seeing, and believe me still has not been completely eradicated.) and there has been steps taken to try and stop it. Dont get me wrong a lot of people accepted there was cheating going on and had seen it themselves but to all the flamers out there a big "DUH" to you.
Now the reason I am posting today is that I also have suspicions about some sort of cheat when shooting. It appears that certain players are getting kills from near impossible shots and when I look back at my online tracks I can see that the bullets are missing the planes but also scoring hits. No I am not talking about just me being hit as I often go into games and record and watch back later from different points of view when possible.
No I am not trolling here as some of you forum types put it and please do not bother to reply if you are only going to flame the post. The reason I have posted is to have reasonable, intelligent discussion on this subject so if you have nothing to contribute but blind denial do not bother.

johnbn
02-07-2004, 09:05 AM
I posted a while back about suspicions I had on online cheating. I described the situations which I was suspicious of and promtly got shot down in flames about how there is "NO CHEATIN IN IL2" was called a noob and told to learn how to fly.(There was also some intelligent replies to my post which I appreciated.)
Well since then it has come to light about the speed hack cheat (which is consistent with what I was seeing, and believe me still has not been completely eradicated.) and there has been steps taken to try and stop it. Dont get me wrong a lot of people accepted there was cheating going on and had seen it themselves but to all the flamers out there a big "DUH" to you.
Now the reason I am posting today is that I also have suspicions about some sort of cheat when shooting. It appears that certain players are getting kills from near impossible shots and when I look back at my online tracks I can see that the bullets are missing the planes but also scoring hits. No I am not talking about just me being hit as I often go into games and record and watch back later from different points of view when possible.
No I am not trolling here as some of you forum types put it and please do not bother to reply if you are only going to flame the post. The reason I have posted is to have reasonable, intelligent discussion on this subject so if you have nothing to contribute but blind denial do not bother.

Maple_Tiger
02-07-2004, 09:27 AM
You ever notice some times planes flying sidways or how about some times shots you normaly make just are not working?

Its lag.

I have had ace AIs fly by me and shoot me down while there plane is vertical lol

but im on dial up, and whenever im in a server that goes from 10 plarys to 20 i start to find that my gunnery gets worse. With 25 to 30 players it's just one big lagg fest for me. with almost 30 players i can hardly land any shots. Not only that but it also seems that i or my plane is actualy slower then the rest of the guys that are on cable or DSL.

I usualy avoid servers that have more then 15 players now.

But from what your describing it sounds like lagg.

Cess-Harp
02-07-2004, 09:47 AM
johnbn YOu are right on the cheating.. We brought this forwad over a year ago, and the same thing happend to us.. but at least some of the Host saw what was going on, and looked out for it..

And yes Oleg has put some code in the sim to help . But it is not stoping all of them yet.. and I don't know if we ever will.
But as host of games we do look for them an kick them out.. and we have to because a whole lot of the players will not fly with them when they see a known cheater in the game.

Also , I saw that you where using a dialup. Well that is causing a problem now that the new patch has come out.. we have seen this when a dialup player comes on in a game. That if he is very far away or is using AOL dialup then it makes the whole game look like it is full of cheaters http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

So we have to be carefull of this.

But yes there where cheaters and still are some. But Oleg is working on then problem and I am sure that he will get it worked out in some form as the new game addons come out.

And I keep telling myself tht there are and will always be losers in the world who will even cheat them selvs to try to win.. but they get caught in the end.

Just choose who you fly with and keep on having a great time with the Sim just like the rest of us.

Yum_Yum
02-07-2004, 09:59 AM
Hello johnbn http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I too have seen this many times in online games ..

A Plane gets close but appears to have a no defflection shot or slightly rong deflection, when they open fire the maths adds up to "they should miss" ... then you see the shots missing but the target is hit!!.

Its very annoying but I think it's lag.

Currently, a clear profile of cheating and what to look for is very vague, so it is also difficult to see http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

grinman
02-07-2004, 10:03 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I hope It's just lag because I hate cheaters don't you? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Back to the subject, I think it's one cheater or more. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

julien673
02-07-2004, 10:06 AM
johnbn wrote:
"was called a noob and told to learn how to fly"

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ahahahahhahah..... its only lags!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. If you have 56k modem....mayby many people are a dam cheater http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Wilie_Wombat
02-07-2004, 10:08 AM
John,

I agree too, but be careful when watching those tracks. The longer the recording, the more warped things appear. After 30 mins, you'll be flying sideways! But there are the times that I see a plane pass me from a nose to nose aspect, his nose MUST be pointed in the opposite direction, I see the bullets flying away from me and BOOM, I'm done in.

This is hard to ignore. Just have faith, and if things continue deeper into the fantasy rhelm, leave and go somewhere else.

WW

Steaky_361st
02-07-2004, 11:22 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cess-Harp:

But yes there where cheaters and still are some. But Oleg is working on then problem and I am sure that he will get it worked out in some form as the new game addons come out. [QUOTE]

At the expense of our tracks yes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Something new that Ive noticed online since this last patch is that sometimes you dont even see the plane open fire...no tracers or nothing and you just randomly take in damage(eventually you see them shoot though.)

grinman
02-07-2004, 11:31 AM
Must be a glitch(problem) for the patch http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-07-2004, 11:39 AM
Now it has begun, it will probably continue. Oleg will patch, the cheaters will find a way around. It will go on and on, similar to Counterstrike, etc. Suspicion will become rife.

This is why the offline Campaign AI needs to be continuously improved. It`s going to be the only way to guarantee no cheating. That and just have private LAN parties with known trusted friends.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/greypilots.jpg

georgeo76
02-07-2004, 11:48 AM
Tracks are un-reliable when determining shot accuracy until the expansion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by Oleg Maddox:

Because of this, the NTRK tracks no longer display recording playerâ's cannon and MG shots, even though the track does record these events, and their damage is correctly displayed. This was necessary because of the changes listed above.
We will attempt to rectify the NTRK situation in the Ace Expansion Pack, which will also contain an even higher anti-cheating protection ensuring continuously stable online play in the future.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend/images/buck2.gif
"I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up. "
Fiend's Wings (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

Chuck_Older
02-07-2004, 11:58 AM
Bear with me a second http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am a huge car guy (no I'm not fat, lol). I am very interested in automobiles. In particular, muscle cars. I have one, do my own work from installing the convertible roof to building the engine. It's a lot of fun and rewarding too.

"How's this matter?" you are wondering. Well, in addition to the fact that I think muscle cars are sort of the automotive equivelent of WWII fighters, I like computers and simulations.

I'm getting to my point now, I promise http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Anyone recall an Electronic Arts online-only game called "Motor City Online"? They pulled the plug before last year, so it's no more. Pretty inaccurate as far as cars go, but hey, it's a game and it was fun. It's been my only online gaming experience, but let me tell you: it was RIFE with exploiters and cheaters. (If I knew any of you from the MCO days, I was Reno on the Atlantic server and Duntov on the Pacific. How you been doin'?)

But even though it was full of cheaters and exploiters (using an exploit in the game mechanics to win), as a group, the folks who didn't cheat or exploit simply passed around the word that so-and-so was a known cheater. Folks were unjustly accused all the time (I was fairly good at the game and was called a cheater a lot by folks who couldn't win). But even though folks were unjustly accused a lot, gradually the MCO community was able to sort of seperate the wheat from the chaff as it were, and identify actual cheaters. What we had was car clubs, very similar to squadrons, and clubs would race other clubs they knew were on the level (or if you like, who would cheat or exploit with them) and you know what? Accused cheaters were noted more by their absence because strangely, when some of them weren't in a race for some reason, the suspicion of cheating was almost gone. Nothing shady had happened. As time went on we could generally identify the diffrence between lag-related trouble and cheaters.
Takes a while and it can be done. I had a small group I played with online, maybe 30 players out of a few thousand. But we knew each other, knew reputations, and in my case I kept a pad of paper with me, in which I wrote the on-line names of shady players. It just took a little effort.

I'm sure some of you already do this, but you're not powerless to do something about cheaters yourselves.

*****************************
the sergeant will for, his sergeant's pay, obey the captain 'till his dying day~ Clash

AB_Mormac
02-07-2004, 12:57 PM
Hi, I know that I was not to have a negative reply to your posting. Have been gaming online with the flight simulators for three years or more. In games I find lag for me is really frustrating. The bottom line is if I do not like the game I leave, and go play in a another room that has a better connection. One must always remember that it is the game for one's entertainment.

RedDeth
02-07-2004, 12:59 PM
cheating....what is cheating? the speed hack was a modification of your computer. not an alteration of FB. FB was not hacked. its closed code. you cant cheat in FB at all. you cant change the way planes fly or how accurate they are. its closed code. you are seeing lagg. ive been shot by planes the were 5k away when there is lots of lagg. and ive done it to others.if you see a plane floating across your screen and you hit it then he will die even if hes 10 kilometers away. no matter what direction he is facing. you CANT CHEAT in FB. but there was a speed up function for your puter before. on tight hosting settings it boots now. and the new add on will have more ways to watch it.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

GAU-8
02-07-2004, 07:00 PM
i have a feeling TIME WARNER is going to see a spike of customers going from 56K to ROAD RUNNER CABLE since 1.22

as a (switching to cable tuesday) 56K player, i cant even get to 90 percent of the games online anymore before im kicked..or locked-up.

at first i thought maybe it was my connection. but after testing all my other online games, and narry a problem, i realised the new patch is very 56k unfriendly

Fillmore
02-07-2004, 07:50 PM
The Shooter shoots what the Shooter Sees, not what You See, see? Latency (people tend to use the word lag to mean other things as well, like changes in latency and packet loss etc.) means that there is a time difference between you and everyone else, so You will never See what Everyone Else Sees, see? Even with everyone having very low latencey there will still be time differentials of at least a tenth of a second, which may not seem like much but when everyone is flying around at over 100 meters per second, it means that everything You See can be as much as (depends on the various angles/velocities that the planes are moving relative to each other) 10 meters away from what Someone Else Sees, see? And this is speaking about pings of no more than 50, with pings in the hundreds then it is commonplace for You to See Someone shooting at Someone Else, and it looks to You like Their shooting is way off, but wheather they hit only depends on what They See, not what You See, see? Add in changes in latency (lag spikes) and packet loss, and it all adds up to a mess.

It is rather obnoxious to look over your shoulder and see someone who doesn't look like they have a shot, only to find out the hard way that they did have a shot, because their point of view was a couple tenths of a second different than yours. When the pings get much over 200-300 is when it becomes pointless to judge someone elses shot.

SodBuster43
02-07-2004, 09:19 PM
It has been stated more times than I can count that IL-2 has not been cracked or hacked, etc. This may be true, however, people still find a way to cheat others out of a fair game by merely exploiting quirks in the game itself or by manipulating clock speeds, etc. Unless everyone participates in using all the exploits, the game cannot be considered completely fair in all respects.

Several known ways to cheat or gain an unethical edge over your opponents are the so called "speed hack", "trim cheat" and "prop pitch cheat". I am fairly positive that I have witnessed all of these being used by players at times to gain an edge. The "prop pitch cheat" is rather vague to me and I think it only relates to the Luftwaffe aircraft that can be switched from auto to manual prop pitch. I think this may not even be a cheat at all but rather a poor automatic prop pitch control setup.

There is also one other concern that has been pointed out by 1c:Maddox as a potential problem. Apparently there is the theoretical possibility of having unlimited ammo. I have only witnessed one occurance where this may have been employed by a player who appeared to be spraying ammo endlessly.

There are many other strange occurances when I have been playing online that seem to defy explanation. Most people will lump these under the catagory of "lag issues". I have witnessed cases of aircraft invincibility where myself and possibly other players have attempted to shoot down a particular aircraft that exhibited absolutely no damage when it should have been ripped apart. Some of these aircraft continue to fly as if completely unharmed by pulling maneuvers or taking evasive action only a pristine aircraft would have been capable of.

[This message was edited by SodBuster43 on Sat February 07 2004 at 08:34 PM.]

[This message was edited by SodBuster43 on Sat February 07 2004 at 08:37 PM.]

johnbn
02-09-2004, 03:50 PM
Thanks for the expanation Fillmore.Yeah you could be right my ping is always above 250, often higher.

Sodbuster43 I know what you mean. I used to play in a server where one guy in particular was always getting lots and lots of kills and I noticed the server regulary said he " walks away from crash site ". I rammed him one time (by accident of course) at about 1500m both planes blew up. Guess what the server said " so and so walks away from crash site " I dont play on that server any more.

BaldieJr
02-09-2004, 04:00 PM
Sesame Street. Remember that show?

One of these kids is doing his own thing... that song was the coolest.

I'm reminded of the Wizard of Oz. Ignore the man behind the curtain.

Oh, and "I did not have relations with Monica Lewinki.".

Lemme see... there is an old joke: You're only gay if you like it.

I am senile. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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