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Steelsoldier555
03-18-2017, 08:22 AM
Shugoki is the big tanky...well...tank of the game, but there are a lot of issues with him that characters exploit. Mainly Demon's Embrace, the fat sack of crap puts you on his shoulders and snaps your back and during this animation enemies can lay into you while on his back and while your on the ground making a guaranteed death. It is absolutely ridiculous because Demon's Embrace is EXTREMELY hard to dodge as most characters. They either need to take away the outside attack sources or allow the Shugoki to take heavy damage from his own teammates while in the process of Demon Embrace, leaving him vulnerable to all the heavy attacks the team unleashes while trying to kill the opponent on his shoulders. So now your Shugoki is low on health, you now risk killing him and the opponent to recover and kill YOU. This would even out the chances of the opponent to get back up and redeem himself. Players get off a successful guard break while the Shugoki sits nice and pretty next to them and they execute Demon's Embrace, even if the opponent counters the guard break he can't escape the Shugoki. This allows the other teammate to unleash a flurry of attacks and kill the opponent before they ever get back on the ground. Now creators of For Honor, explain how that is remotely fair

SoraFoxton
03-18-2017, 08:30 AM
I can fully agree to this, I recently had a match where the peacekeeper would constantly guard break with their shugoki friend right next them. Even if I countered the break I couldn't escape in time because that big man is just right there and instantly grabs me. Then the flurry of heavy and light attacks commences from the peacekeeper and I was dead before before the animation of being thrown off the big mans back even started. Something needs to be done about it.

SangLong524
03-18-2017, 08:44 AM
1. Dodge to side.
2. Dont get wall stunned
3. in team, sorry, cant really say. Kill the stupid, or get killed for being stupid. No offense
Oh and the animation cannot be stopped by anything but death, so watch out if u are about to land a heavy but shugoki still has green stamina
Try killing with shugoki vs players, u may learn his weaknesses and strengths.

tonycawley69
03-18-2017, 11:07 AM
I do play as the fat man sometimes and it's one of my favourite moves but yes it is a bit too much. Thing is, he didn't really have much else going for him so if you reduce its effectiveness, what's he left with?

Kiiyor
03-18-2017, 11:46 AM
the fat sack of crap puts you on his shoulders and snaps your back and during this animation enemies can lay into you while on his back and while your on the ground making a guaranteed death.

I main the fat man mostly for this exact reason in Dominion; it's a fantastic revenge neutralizer.

It warms my heart to see a Conqueror or Warlord shrugging off the attacks of an entire team, smugly confident in their ability to farm revenge in two or three hits, only to be unceremoniously hoisted up on a fat, sweaty shoulder before being beaten like a Meat PiŮata™. I LIKE MY CONQUEROR MEAT TENDER, and the salt from the recently chiropracted just adds to the flavor. Bonus points if you hoist them after the triumphant revenge activation animation.

Shugobro a disabler, and revenge farmers hate that, in any form. I see people complaining about the Conqueror's shield charge, the Lawbringer's hilarious pancake flip, and even the Warlord's headbutt, simply because they are great tools for negating godmode, and dammit, what good is all this fancy revenge gear if you can't solo an entire team?

In 1v1, the Shug is merely competitive, where the embrace is only guaranteed after a wall throw, and a near suicidal gimmick outside that. In Dominion, he's like a morbidly obese land shark - you can deal with him if you pay attention to him, but if you ignore him, he gets a free meal.

bramboforce
03-18-2017, 12:03 PM
Well in 1vmore players situation yu should run or be very careful and if you listen a little bit you can hear sound of demons embrace. In 1v1 situation you will be grabed only if you are ****ing dumb ****** or if he thrwos you to wall and then grabs you. Its easy to dodge i cant see why people have so much trouble with it.

SaphironX
03-19-2017, 11:07 AM
Not only is it easy to dodge, it's the one move in the game that injures the user if he misses.

Just dodge to the side. That attack never hurts me, and when I miss, it's painful as hell.

Great attack if you can land it, easy to dodge or stop if you just take down the shield before you do a major attack.

If you do a big heavy attack and his shield is up, yes, you will get crushed. Don't do that thing.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-19-2017, 11:18 AM
They need make it so your invulnerable to outside damage when in a shigoki bear hug and *maybe* while on the floor.

XImohtephXX
03-19-2017, 11:47 AM
You must also be one of the people asking for LBs Long Arm to be nerfed as it does basically the same thing. Just like the Long Arm it is not easy to land and requires an opening usually only created in a 4v4 environment. In 1v1s it requires setup to even land and against a competent opponent the chances of that happening become slimmer and slimmer. So if that means hes relegated to a 4v4 powerhouse and sub-par in an actual fight then so be it. I would certainly not recommend taking away one of the few useful tools a character has. And lets be frank here if the enemy team is having the patience and forethought to set you up with a GB like you stated for their big brother to man handle you then chances are very very small of you actually walking away from the situation regardless.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-19-2017, 12:05 PM
You must also be one of the people asking for LBs Long Arm to be nerfed as it does basically the same thing. Just like the Long Arm it is not easy to land and requires an opening usually only created in a 4v4 environment. In 1v1s it requires setup to even land and against a competent opponent the chances of that happening become slimmer and slimmer. So if that means hes relegated to a 4v4 powerhouse and sub-par in an actual fight then so be it. I would certainly not recommend taking away one of the few useful tools a character has. And lets be frank here if the enemy team is having the patience and forethought to set you up with a GB like you stated for their big brother to man handle you then chances are very very small of you actually walking away from the situation regardless.

Landing lb and shigoki bear hug takes no skill land if your not being looked but insta kills the person your doing it. Making your your opponent invulnerable while he is in the air won't hurt shigoki or lb 1v1 and in 4v4 fights it's cc+damage

Kiiyor
03-19-2017, 12:55 PM
Landing lb and shigoki bear hug takes no skill land if your not being looked but insta kills the person your doing it. Making your your opponent invulnerable while he is in the air won't hurt shigoki or lb 1v1 and in 4v4 fights it's cc+damage

Neither the long arm or the hug instakill - unless the fat man is on less than one bar of health when he tries the hug.

Adding invincibility to the hoistee probably won't change things either. Most teammates don't attack while the enemy on a shoulder, as it dishes out team damage to shugobro too - or doesn't land at all if you're attacking from the opposite shoulder. The majority of players I meet wait for the drop to the ground before they unload, because you're far more guaranteed to land damage that way.

secrecy274
03-19-2017, 02:16 PM
I don't think Demon's Embrace in on itself is broken, High Risk High Reward, however I think its core design is **** though. However, Demon's Embrace combined with his "PUS" or "Passive Uninterruptible Stance" is what makes it broken.

Here:

https://youtu.be/UYdKp98KVGs

That's why I think it's broken.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-19-2017, 02:52 PM
Neither the long arm or the hug instakill - unless the fat man is on less than one bar of health when he tries the hug.

Adding invincibility to the hoistee probably won't change things either. Most teammates don't attack while the enemy on a shoulder, as it dishes out team damage to shugobro too - or doesn't land at all if you're attacking from the opposite shoulder. The majority of players I meet wait for the drop to the ground before they unload, because you're far more guaranteed to land damage that way.

This is the dumbest thing I have every read on the fourms. with the entire team beating on the shigoki he will lose MAYBE 1 bar if that and that's excluding the heal

BringerofAzrael
03-19-2017, 04:06 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h4PI5mo-rtA&t=1m14s

Steelsoldier555
03-19-2017, 10:35 PM
You guys keep saying "it's easy to dodge" in 1v1. My post is not about 1v1, it is focused around team based games and getting multi teamed with a Shugoki on the opposite team. And for the idiot who said most teammates won't attack because of friendly fire you are a HUGE idiot. Do you even realize how LITTLE damage you do to a teammate with your weapon? The Shugoki will MAYBE lose 1 bar of health while back breaking as his teammates slash the hell out of him. Back to the point of this, this post is for how much players abuse the fact you can't recover from being guard broken fast enough to dodge him. Like I mentioned, Shugoki noobs do nothing but sit there and wait for the opponent to be too busy blocking or until they're guard broken to charge in and seal their fate. This renders the Shugoki in a multi team game mode a effortless and no skill required character, and that needs to change!

Dizzy4213
03-19-2017, 11:09 PM
You guys keep saying "it's easy to dodge" in 1v1. My post is not about 1v1, it is focused around team based games and getting multi teamed with a Shugoki on the opposite team. And for the idiot who said most teammates won't attack because of friendly fire you are a HUGE idiot. Do you even realize how LITTLE damage you do to a teammate with your weapon? The Shugoki will MAYBE lose 1 bar of health while back breaking as his teammates slash the hell out of him. Back to the point of this, this post is for how much players abuse the fact you can't recover from being guard broken fast enough to dodge him. Like I mentioned, Shugoki noobs do nothing but sit there and wait for the opponent to be too busy blocking or until they're guard broken to charge in and seal their fate. This renders the Shugoki in a multi team game mode a effortless and no skill required character, and that needs to change!

As someone who plays Shugoki a lot, he is fine. He's incredibly strong in team fights but at the same time, extremely weak if he's being ganked. Even though I have as much defence as possible, I still die much quicker than assassins because of the extra damage I take when the stance is down.

I know it's annoying being hugged from behind but that's just how it is. Whenever I come up against another Shugoki I always prioritise him first. By that I mean I'm always locked on to him so I can dodge his Demon's Embrace. Admittedly, it doesn't always work out but you have a much better chance of surviving if you focus on him and watch out for it.

I know it's frustrating for a lot of people but you could say the same about everyone else. Lawbringer pancake flip, Conqueror shield bash, Valkyrie shield tackle/sweep etc. These are all moves which can knock you down whilst their teammates wail on you with heavy attacks. When a Warlord activated Revenge, I spammed my shield tackle as Valkyrie, constantly knocking him on the floor until his Revenge finished so my team could survive. Lawbringer, Valkyrie and Shugoki are Disablers. They're doing what they were designed to do, which is to disable the enemy. From my experience, Shugoki is by far the least annoying one of the lot, as it's easier to dodge and he pays a heavy price if he misses.

SangLong524
03-19-2017, 11:12 PM
You guys keep saying "it's easy to dodge" in 1v1. My post is not about 1v1, it is focused around team based games and getting multi teamed with a Shugoki on the opposite team. And for the idiot who said most teammates won't attack because of friendly fire you are a HUGE idiot. Do you even realize how LITTLE damage you do to a teammate with your weapon? The Shugoki will MAYBE lose 1 bar of health while back breaking as his teammates slash the hell out of him. Back to the point of this, this post is for how much players abuse the fact you can't recover from being guard broken fast enough to dodge him. Like I mentioned, Shugoki noobs do nothing but sit there and wait for the opponent to be too busy blocking or until they're guard broken to charge in and seal their fate. This renders the Shugoki in a multi team game mode a effortless and no skill required character, and that needs to change!

u obviously haven't been killed by friendly fire. Play more!
About teammode, that IS the nature of Teamwork. Someone needs to step back and someone needs to step up when his/her support is needed. That Shugoki u keep complaining about knows the value of teamwork and his place.
Skill! well, no! this matter is not for u to dictate. sorry!

ArlianDeBias
03-19-2017, 11:24 PM
Shugoki's demon grab is a very powerful move in the 4v4 team modes, but is very weak in 1v1 and 2v2.

I think it's balanced as it is, with the exception of the low health OHK version of the move. No moves should be able to OHK any other character, that's just not fair.

UbiJurassic
03-19-2017, 11:25 PM
This is a great discussion on Shugoki's Demon Embrace! I'll be sure to forward everyone's feedback on it to the team.

Felis_Menari
03-19-2017, 11:30 PM
Shugoki's demon grab is a very powerful move in the 4v4 team modes, but is very weak in 1v1 and 2v2.

I think it's balanced as it is, with the exception of the low health OHK version of the move. No moves should be able to OHK any other character, that's just not fair.

Very weak in 1v1? What? Say that after being thrown into a wall by a Shugoki, lol.

AzureSky.
03-19-2017, 11:31 PM
No...... its just broken in 4 vs 4 no need to nerf the move just for that, you can give the guy some invunerable frames in that time and problem solved, focus on buffing kensei and lawbringer, also nerf pk dash speed and attacks speed (make it the same as other fast characters, 500 ms not 400)

ArlianDeBias
03-19-2017, 11:38 PM
Very weak in 1v1? What? Say that after being thrown into a wall by a Shugoki, lol.

Every character can land a light attack on you if they throw you into a wall.

A competent player isn't going to be thrown into a wall in the first place.

escacleo
03-19-2017, 11:43 PM
The 1 hit kill guarantee is what is broken. Full HP and fresh revenge and this one move will kill you. Broken

SangLong524
03-19-2017, 11:43 PM
OHK in Critical state is extremely risky. u need great timing or wall stun or mind game to surprise the victim to pull it off. Miss and 1 light hit is all it takes to kill Shugoki. Even when pulled off successfully, u can still die from friendly fire by your friends or the BOTs as health only gained after the Shugoki throws the victim down.Not to mention the Shugoki is also completely open for the Victim's teammates' attacks too. It's stupid to Demon's Embrace in an out-numbered scenario. Very hazardous!
But I understand the OHK part. Personally, it's ok to me if OHK is removed but buff the health drain somehow to mitigate friendly fire.

Vordred
03-19-2017, 11:47 PM
i've said it many times, that despite the fact i main the LB, the LongArm and Demons Embrace should go, any move that takes away control of someones character for extended periods shouldn't be in the game, it's not fun to do and even less fun to be on the receiving end of. it's like Stun locking in MMO's. it's not fun to have zero control well you watch your character die.

and as a LB i'm guilty of doing this myself at time, in team games when someone pops revenge, i will just longarm them over and over, well my team beats them to death. as there is nothing they can do about it. don't think that kind of thing belongs on this game.

SangLong524
03-19-2017, 11:54 PM
i've said it many times, that despite the fact i main the LB, the LongArm and Demons Embrace should go, any move that takes away control of someones character for extended periods shouldn't be in the game, it's not fun to do and even less fun to be on the receiving end of. it's like Stun locking in MMO's. it's not fun to have zero control well you watch your character die.

and as a LB i'm guilty of doing this myself at time, in team games when someone pops revenge, i will just longarm them over and over, well my team beats them to death. as there is nothing they can do about it. don't think that kind of thing belongs on this game.

I don't know about completely removed them. To my knowledge, you can't escape PK's 3 stabs. God forbids u get stabbed when she has revenge on. Adjust them, by all means, go ahead. But keep them around to put people on edge. These are stoopid killa moves.

Felis_Menari
03-20-2017, 12:07 AM
Every character can land a light attack on you if they throw you into a wall.

A competent player isn't going to be thrown into a wall in the first place.

Because it never happens, right? Every decent player is totally immune to GBs, at all times, with no exception....lulz. And when thrown into a wall, *heavies* are guaranteed. Now that aside, the problem in a duel/brawl match is that a Shugoki can do what no other character can; regain health without an execution. And throwing an enemy into a wall, guarantees this. I also think the onsta-kill property of Demon's Embrace needs to go as well. It does decent damage normally, is guaranteed on a wall stun, and virtually guarantees death in 4v4s in just a single grab. It does *not* need health then and insta-kill on top of that in order to be good or viable.

SangLong524
03-20-2017, 12:16 AM
Because it never happens, right? Every decent player is totally immune to GBs, at all times, with no exception....lulz. And when thrown into a wall, *heavies* are guaranteed. Now that aside, the problem in a duel/brawl match is that a Shugoki can do what no other character can; regain health without an execution. And throwing an enemy into a wall, guarantees this. I also think the onsta-kill property of Demon's Embrace needs to go as well. It does decent damage normally, is guaranteed on a wall stun, and virtually guarantees death in 4v4s in just a single grab. It does *not* need health then and insta-kill on top of that in order to be good or viable.
Shugoki's GB is no different from other classes in the way u get grabbed. So CGB is your answer.
Now, every class needs something to distinguish themselves. U are not playing foot soldiers.
I dont want to repeat myself on the matter of Embrace's OHK property. It has a condition to OHK, shugoki cannot pull that OHK out of his *** without being in one of less block of health. Oh and being killed by Embrace while low on health doesnt count as OHK

Eddeh07
03-20-2017, 12:37 AM
Yeah I can't advocate a nerf of the demon's embrace, only because it will severly underpower the Shugoki in 1v1 situations. It's easy to dodge if you're expecting it, even as a slow character (I mostly play Lawbringer).

I do agree that I have come undone many times by a PK Shugoki combo in 1vX scenarios though, and don't really know how to counter if he constantly spams his embrace. Maybe a solution would be if we could outside parry the demon's embrace (but only outside parry, should still have to dodge if you're targeting him)? I dunno, seems like it would offer a small chance to escape, but maybe that's too complicated?

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 12:58 AM
No...... its just broken in 4 vs 4 no need to nerf the move just for that, you can give the guy some invunerable frames in that time and problem solved, focus on buffing kensei and lawbringer, also nerf pk dash speed and attacks speed (make it the same as other fast characters, 500 ms not 400)

Ppl complain about kensei but kensei has op feats...oneshot bow and a feat that completely trashes the entire system the game was built on...without these feats ya kensei is bad. No point in trying fight a kensi with unblockable on unless your confident in parrying his top dash light.

Felis_Menari
03-20-2017, 01:52 AM
Shugoki's GB is no different from other classes in the way u get grabbed. So CGB is your answer.
Now, every class needs something to distinguish themselves. U are not playing foot soldiers.
I dont want to repeat myself on the matter of Embrace's OHK property. It has a condition to OHK, shugoki cannot pull that OHK out of his *** without being in one of less block of health. Oh and being killed by Embrace while low on health doesnt count as OHK

There's also...Charge of the Oni, I think it's called. It can have finnicky hit detection, but when it does land, I'm pretty sure it can lead to a guaranteed DE. It's all well and good, a big, slow guy having a nasty grab maneuver. What's not all well and good is the heal and insta-kill. DE doesn't need them to be useful.

Dizzy4213
03-20-2017, 02:06 AM
There's also...Charge of the Oni, I think it's called. It can have finnicky hit detection, but when it does land, I'm pretty sure it can lead to a guaranteed DE. It's all well and good, a big, slow guy having a nasty grab maneuver. What's not all well and good is the heal and insta-kill. DE doesn't need them to be useful.

It's impossible to land a Demons Embrace after Charge of the Oni. I think the most I've ever gotten of the charge is a light attack.

It's completely fine as is. The move is slow and extremely telegraphed, and if the Shugoki misses he loses a lot of health. If you remove the heal from it, then you also need to remove the cost if you miss. It's a high risk high reward ability. Yes you can get it off a wall stun but it's your own fault for not being aware of your surroundings. Furthermore, Shugoki's throw distance is absolute trash for a fat guy. It's not that much better than Valkyries.

SangLong524
03-20-2017, 02:08 AM
There's also...Charge of the Oni, I think it's called. It can have finnicky hit detection, but when it does land, I'm pretty sure it can lead to a guaranteed DE. It's all well and good, a big, slow guy having a nasty grab maneuver. What's not all well and good is the heal and insta-kill. DE doesn't need them to be useful.
Charge of Oni does knockback, no damage. But DE cant grab a knocked down opponent from what i observed. But an opponent that gets up halfway, sometimes DE connects, i cant be sure.

Felis_Menari
03-20-2017, 02:37 AM
It's impossible to land a Demons Embrace after Charge of the Oni. I think the most I've ever gotten of the charge is a light attack.

It's completely fine as is. The move is slow and extremely telegraphed, and if the Shugoki misses he loses a lot of health. If you remove the heal from it, then you also need to remove the cost if you miss. It's a high risk high reward ability. Yes you can get it off a wall stun but it's your own fault for not being aware of your surroundings. Furthermore, Shugoki's throw distance is absolute trash for a fat guy. It's not that much better than Valkyries.

Naturally, if the heal was to be removed, so would the penalty for missing. That much is a given. Now, in some instances, being aware of one's surrounding doesn't matter. Some duel maps simply do not allow for significant distance from walls (sometimes it's a choice between ledges and walls; walls are clearly safer). All it takes is one missed CGB, and suddenly the health differential shifts more than in any other situation in the game.

SangLong524
03-20-2017, 02:40 AM
Naturally, if the heal was to be removed, so would the penalty for missing. That much is a given. Now, in some instances, being aware of one's surrounding doesn't matter. Some duel maps simply do not allow for significant distance from walls (sometimes it's a choice between ledges and walls; walls are clearly safer). All it takes is one missed CGB, and suddenly the health differential shifts more than in any other situation in the game.
So.... what exactly is the problem? I can do all of that with any classes, not just Shugoki. And u are getting off topic

Felis_Menari
03-20-2017, 02:57 AM
So.... what exactly is the problem? I can do all of that with any classes, not just Shugoki. And u are getting off topic

It's not off topic if it involves Demon's Embrace, which is what I talked about in the post you quoted. And no, you cannot heal and deal damage simultaneously with any other character (executions, and 4v4 excluded, naturally).

SangLong524
03-20-2017, 03:04 AM
It's not off topic if it involves Demon's Embrace, which is what I talked about in the post you quoted. And no, you cannot heal and deal damage simultaneously with any other character (executions, and 4v4 excluded, naturally).
No, u were talking about ringouts in the previous post, which has nothing to do with DE. CGB failure is your shortcoming alone. All these can be done by any class, hence my reply. Different maps to prevent players getting bored, which also has nothing to do with DE.
So your problem is both health gain and dealing damage. Do stick with it. The health drain maybe a bit dubious but the damage is a must. Who can walk away fine from having their spine snapped? Dont be ridiculous.

Dizzy4213
03-20-2017, 03:13 AM
Naturally, if the heal was to be removed, so would the penalty for missing. That much is a given. Now, in some instances, being aware of one's surrounding doesn't matter. Some duel maps simply do not allow for significant distance from walls (sometimes it's a choice between ledges and walls; walls are clearly safer). All it takes is one missed CGB, and suddenly the health differential shifts more than in any other situation in the game.

Then don't you think that your issue is more to do with map design than Shugoki himself? I agree, there are some ridiculous maps, like the one where you fight on the bridge. But Shugoki shouldn't have to be nerfed because of poor map design.

I think the move is fine as is. It's one of the most unique qualities of Shugoki. If he couldn't land the move off of a wall stun then it would be completely useless in all but 4v4 modes. As I said before, Demons Embrace has a lot of drawbacks as well as Shugoki's extremely poor throwing distance. Which makes it much more difficult to throw you into a wall. If Demons Embrace gets nerfed, then I probably won't use him ever again. He takes increased damage when his stance is consumed so I think it's only fair he has some way of recovering that lost health. I believe that when his stance is consumed Shugoki is left fighting with the same health pool as that of an assassin.

TCTF_SWAT
03-20-2017, 03:15 AM
What do ya see? WHOAAWHAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Kiiyor
03-20-2017, 03:26 AM
This is the dumbest thing I have every read on the fourms. with the entire team beating on the shigoki he will lose MAYBE 1 bar if that and that's excluding the heal

If that's the dumbest thing you've read on the forums, It's probably safe to assume you haven't actually read much on the forums... and I envy you.

I know you're keen to sensationalize the whole thing, but I was merely pointing out that neither of the attacks you mentioned (long arm and DE) instakill, unless the Shug is on critical health - and coincidentally, i'd be more than fine with the crit health instakill being removed from the Shug's repertoire.

Also, the loss of health due to FF wasn't a point I was adding for contention as far as balance goes - I was pointing out an observation about the way people attack a target on a fat man's shoulder. In my experience, most players wait until the target is on the ground before landing their hits, as the hits are more likely to land that way. Making the shouldered player invincible would likely do nothing to address any part of the issue.


with the entire team beating on the shigoki

I'd also like to add that if the entire friendly team is beating on a friendly Shugoki, assuming his shoulder armor has the optional enemy soldier temporary attachment upgrade, then that soldier is probably screwed (and deservedly so) anyway, and any argument about the method of their demise is probably moot.

Look, I understand frustration, but all these hyperventilating posts about "X IS RUINING THE GAME AND I WON'T ACCEPT DISCUSSION" solve nothing - but hey, we're pretty far down the angry hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation rabbit hole already, so why not just go for it and see if we can fill the hole with salt too with more hypothetical arguments to argue about.

"There were 4 guys hitting me but this one dude pancake flipped me and I died 0.86 seconds faster than I would have if he didn't, so long arm needs to go!"

"It's not fair because my Valk/Warlord had revenge up and I was looking forward to headbutting/shield bashing them with my inescapable revenge autokill combo and the inescapable Shugoki hug is more annoying than my inescapable combo waaaaa nerf the Shugoki"

"THAT FAT BASTARD SHUGOKI RUINED MY CONQUERORS REVENGE. I WORKED HARD TO GET THOSE THREE HITS TO LAND AGAINST MY ALL DEFENCE AND IT'S NOT FAIR THAT I COULDN'T KILL ALL 4 PLAYERS AS REWARD FOR MY HARD WORK"

"OMG that Shugoki is listed as a disabler but I never thought something listed as a disabler should be a priority in gank fights and then he DISABLED ME WTF"

RoosterIlluzion
03-20-2017, 04:10 AM
"Ledgeguard"

**** player, **** boy that sucks Shugoki ****.

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 04:23 AM
- It is ABSURDLY easy to avoid

- If you miss then you are screwed in MANY ways

- The damage is negligible unless you are below one bar of health

- It is VERY easy to tell when a Shugoki is about to use it

- The rest of his kit is severely limited if anything should happen to the grab then the entire character is rendered pointless





Shugoki is meant to be a gigantic dude who sits on points and defends them on his own or until help arrives. He is meant to hit very hard, but be very easy to avoid. If you find yourself consistently losing to one then that speaks more to your skill level as a player rather than Shugoki as a hero.


He is a bruiser. Slow, hard hitting, and meant to outlast you rather than outplay you.


The people complaining are the people who don't understand how his stance works or how to get around it. If you are getting grabbed all the time then that is because YOU as a player are doing things wrong.


It doesn't mean the ability is OP.


P.S. If you are complaining because you just got one shot by a Shugoki because of the grab then sit down and stop talking.

- You KNOW they are gonna go for the grab when they are low

- You KNOW how to avoid it


All you have to do is dodge it and they essentially kill themselves. Don't come to the forums and ask that a character gets his main move nerfed just because YOU jumped the gun and dove at a guy just because he was low.


A fight doesn't end until the guy is dead. Just because he has one bar does not mean you stop playing like you did before. Always fight as if the opponent is at full health and you will never get surprised.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 04:35 AM
- It is ABSURDLY easy to avoid

- If you miss then you are screwed in MANY ways

- The damage is negligible unless you are below one bar of health

- It is VERY easy to tell when a Shugoki is about to use it

- The rest of his kit is severely limited if anything should happen to the grab then the entire character is rendered pointless





Shugoki is meant to be a gigantic dude who sits on points and defends them on his own or until help arrives. He is meant to hit very hard, but be very easy to avoid. If you find yourself consistently losing to one then that speaks more to your skill level as a player rather than Shugoki as a hero.


He is a bruiser. Slow, hard hitting, and meant to outlast you rather than outplay you.


The people complaining are the people who don't understand how his stance works or how to get around it. If you are getting grabbed all the time then that is because YOU as a player are doing things wrong.


It doesn't mean the ability is OP.


P.S. If you are complaining because you just got one shot by a Shugoki because of the grab then sit down and stop talking.

- You KNOW they are gonna go for the grab when they are low

- You KNOW how to avoid it


All you have to do is dodge it and they essentially kill themselves. Don't come to the forums and ask that a character gets his main move nerfed just because YOU jumped the gun and dove at a guy just because he was low.


A fight doesn't end until the guy is dead. Just because he has one bar does not mean you stop playing like you did before. Always fight as if the opponent is at full health and you will never get surprised.
My problem is when it's a 1vX unless your locked onto the shigoki or happen be lucky enough to see him your ****ed. His entire team can beat you down with full hp and full revenge before you can get back up..idc about the low hp 1shot

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 04:40 AM
My problem is when it's a 1vX unless your locked onto the shigoki or happen be lucky enough to see him your ****ed. His entire team can beat you down with full hp and full revenge before you can get back up..idc about the low hp 1shot

That is the point.

He is a disabler. That is his disable.

- Valkyrie Sweeps the leg

- Lawbringer shoves and flips you

- Nubushi chain kicks you in the jimmy

- Shugoki grabs you


All of those has the ability to turn you into a pinata.

SangLong524
03-20-2017, 04:41 AM
My problem is when it's a 1vX unless your locked onto the shigoki or happen be lucky enough to see him your ****ed. His entire team can beat you down with full hp and full revenge before you can get back up..idc about the low hp 1shot

Shugoki should be your priority target in team. Then kill the PK quickly if she's around. Whichever is closer, prerferably kill the PK since shugoki has sprinting speed issue. U get DE-ed because u lose track of him. Well, Don't.
Personally, no class out me on high elert faster than a PK. Not so worried about shugoki.
Do u know friendly fire disable his stance too? In an uncoordinated and blood crazed team that keeps swinging without care, it's easily backfired

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 04:43 AM
If that's the dumbest thing you've read on the forums, It's probably safe to assume you haven't actually read much on the forums... and I envy you.

I know you're keen to sensationalize the whole thing, but I was merely pointing out that neither of the attacks you mentioned (long arm and DE) instakill, unless the Shug is on critical health - and coincidentally, i'd be more than fine with the crit health instakill being removed from the Shug's repertoire.

Also, the loss of health due to FF wasn't a point I was adding for contention as far as balance goes - I was pointing out an observation about the way people attack a target on a fat man's shoulder. In my experience, most players wait until the target is on the ground before landing their hits, as the hits are more likely to land that way. Making the shouldered player invincible would likely do nothing to address any part of the issue.



I'd also like to add that if the entire friendly team is beating on a friendly Shugoki, assuming his shoulder armor has the optional enemy soldier temporary attachment upgrade, then that soldier is probably screwed (and deservedly so) anyway, and any argument about the method of their demise is probably moot.

Look, I understand frustration, but all these hyperventilating posts about "X IS RUINING THE GAME AND I WON'T ACCEPT DISCUSSION" solve nothing - but hey, we're pretty far down the angry hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation rabbit hole already, so why not just go for it and see if we can fill the hole with salt too with more hypothetical arguments to argue about.

"There were 4 guys hitting me but this one dude pancake flipped me and I died 0.86 seconds faster than I would have if he didn't, so long arm needs to go!"

"It's not fair because my Valk/Warlord had revenge up and I was looking forward to headbutting/shield bashing them with my inescapable revenge autokill combo and the inescapable Shugoki hug is more annoying than my inescapable combo waaaaa nerf the Shugoki"

"THAT FAT BASTARD SHUGOKI RUINED MY CONQUERORS REVENGE. I WORKED HARD TO GET THOSE THREE HITS TO LAND AGAINST MY ALL DEFENCE AND IT'S NOT FAIR THAT I COULDN'T KILL ALL 4 PLAYERS AS REWARD FOR MY HARD WORK"

"OMG that Shugoki is listed as a disabler but I never thought something listed as a disabler should be a priority in gank fights and then he DISABLED ME WTF"
I read some pretty stupid sht.... also in a recent post somewhere. idc about his one shot at low hp. What bothers ppl is if you are not locked onto him and he grabs you one time your dead his whole team can top heavy you 2-3 times before you get up...also you miss understood me the skill itself don't 1 shot you But when a shigoki grabs you for about 3-5 sec his entire team can spam top heavys.

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 04:50 AM
I read some pretty stupid sht.... also in a recent post somewhere. idc about his one shot at low hp. What bothers ppl is if you are not locked onto him and he grabs you one time your dead his whole team can top heavy you 2-3 times before you get up...also you miss understood me the skill itself don't 1 shot you But when a shigoki grabs you for about 3-5 sec his entire team can spam top heavys.

And?


He is a disabler.

Thats his JOB.


And if there are that many of his team there you mostly likely are about to run away. His job is to make sure you don't.


Complaining about a Disabler keeping you still for a few seconds is like complaining that an Assassin keeps trying to get kills.



Thats what they do.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 05:04 AM
And?


He is a disabler.

Thats his JOB.


And if there are that many of his team there you mostly likely are about to run away. His job is to make sure you don't.


Complaining about a Disabler keeping you still for a few seconds is like complaining that an Assassin keeps trying to get kills.



Thats what they do.

I main pk and the video says " can end a fight before they even know what happened" so from your statement pk needs to be buffed cuz she isn't fitting her job? Cuz i sure as hell can't kill someone that fast (maybe if I throw someone off a cliff? Dose that mean we are all assassin's o.o?)

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 05:06 AM
I main pk and the video says " can end a fight before they even know what happened" so from your statement pk needs to be buffed cuz she isn't fitting her job? Cuz i sure as hell can't kill someone that fast (maybe if I throw someone off a cliff? Dose that mean we are all assassin's o.o?)



Dude just stop lol I am quoting the Disabler word from the DIRECT DESCRIPTIONS given to each Hero at the character menu


You just quoted a hype video


Are you serious? lol

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 05:13 AM
Dude just stop lol I am quoting the Disabler word from the DIRECT DESCRIPTIONS given to each Hero at the character menu


You just quoted a hype video


Are you serious? lol
Why dose it matter where I get it. The video describes the characters? Also pk says counter attacker pk dose not even use the counter mechanic...happy?

Maybe you should rethink your logic :/?

Dizzy4213
03-20-2017, 05:15 AM
I feel like no matter how much anyone tries to explain it, some people will just refuse to accept it. Demon's Embrace is fine end of! It's balanced by the fact that it consumes a lot of health if missed and is extremely slow. All I see is a bunch of people moaning about a hero which is designed to disable the enemy.

Lawbringer can pancake flip you to death in a team fight.

Shugoki can Demons Embrace you in a team fight.

Valkyrie can sweep/shield tackle you to death in a team fight.

Nobushi can kick you to death in a team fight.

Conqueror can shield bash you to death in a team fight.

Warden can shoulder bash you to death in a team fight.

Warlord can headbutt you to death in a team fight.

Need I go on?

Everyone complaining about Shugoki when most other characters can spam a certain move in a team fight and get you killed. Yes they may not be as strong, but a simple shoulder bash or headbutt can break your guard long enough for a teammate to get in a heavy or two.

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 05:19 AM
Why dose it matter where I get it. The video describes the characters? Also pk says counter attacker pk dose not even use the counter mechanic...happy?

Maybe you should rethink your logic :/?

No you need to rethink your source.


I am quoting what the game says the hero is supposed to do.


You are quoting some random hype trailer that was meant to give us an idea of what the PK is in the lore of the world not what they are in the game itself.


They are counter attackers because they can deflect and get a guaranteed bleed everytime they deflect an attack.


Thats a counter attack.


Just like Shugoki is a Disabler and his grab disables you for a short period.


Thats a Disabler.


I get that you don't like the move, but if you are gonna make an argument it help to make one that makes logical sense. By your assbackwards hype video logic The Lawbringers should have ridiculous damage reduction to due to their armor and the Orochi should be the very best class period.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 05:22 AM
I feel like no matter how much anyone tries to explain it. Some people will just refuse to accept it. Demon's Embrace is fine end of! It's balanced by the fact that it consumes a lot of health if missed and is extremely slow. All I see is a bunch of people moaning about a hero which is designed to disable the enemy.

Lawbringer can pancake flip you to death in a team fight.

Shugoki can Demons Embrace you in a team fight.

Valkyrie can sweep/shield tackle you to death in a team fight.

Nobushi can kick you to death in a team fight.

Conqueror can shield bash you to death in a team fight.

Warden can shoulder bash you to death in a team fight.

Warlord can headbutt you to death in a team fight.

Need I go on?

Everyone complaining about Shugoki when most other characters can spam a certain move in a team fight and get you killed. Yes they may not be as strong, but a simple shoulder bash or headbutt can break your guard long enough for a teammate to get in a heavy or two.
Most ppl you mentioned only stagger you and most time ppl won't have time capitalize on it...also if like to throw in the added bonus he can 1 shot you others cant? Also all the above can be knocked out of it with a zone attack with the exemption of valkyrie and shigoki

If you don't want add immunity to to player then remove immunity from the shigoki?

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 05:27 AM
Most ppl you mentioned only stagger you and most time ppl won't have time capitalize on it...also if like to throw in the added bonus he can 1 shot you others cant? Also all the above can be knocked out of it with a zone attack with the exemption of valkyrie and shigoki

If you don't want add immunity to to player then remove immunity from the shigoki?


You seriously cannot wrap your head around the fact that the grab is just as dangerous for the Shugoki as it is for you and its actually starting to get annoying.


You keep acting like its so OP and has ZERO downside.


Open your eyes please and remove your obvious bias


- The Shugoki loses a chunk of health and has a massive recovery penalty if he misses and it is VERY easy to avoid the grab

- While he has you grabbed your teammates can wail on him just as easy as his teammates can wail on you

- The grabs actual damage is minimal compared to what he can do if he just smacks you over the head with his club

- The only time it truly is obscene is when the Shugoki has almost NO health and then it should be OBVIOUS that the grab is coming



The point at which the grab is the most deadly? Is also the point at which EVERYONE with a brain knows that it is coming. If it lands at that point it means that you as a player are bad. Not that the move is OP.


All of those are not opinions. Those are facts of the situation regarding his grab.


If you see all that and still think there is an issue then you are not here to have a discussion. You are here to blindly throw your opinion at people until they agree with you or walk away.


As to your absolutely ridiculous statement about immunity?


All those other characters don't get immunity because they have MUCH more diverse kits and options for attack. The Shugoki has basically jack squat outside of his grab and a charged heavy attack. And yet you wanna take half his kit from him.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 05:31 AM
No you need to rethink your source.


I am quoting what the game says the hero is supposed to do.


You are quoting some random hype trailer that was meant to give us an idea of what the PK is in the lore of the world not what they are in the game itself.


They are counter attackers because they can deflect and get a guaranteed bleed everytime they deflect an attack.


Thats a counter attack.


Just like Shugoki is a Disabler and his grab disables you for a short period.


Thats a Disabler.


I get that you don't like the move, but if you are gonna make an argument it help to make one that makes logical sense. By your assbackwards hype video logic The Lawbringers should have ridiculous damage reduction to due to their armor and the Orochi should be the very best class period.

PK will never deflect cuz parrying is ***GUARANTEED*** guardbreak and dose hell of alot more dmg... by your logic pk is not fulfilling her job same for orochi.

Go ahead deny it and sound like a hipicrit

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 05:36 AM
PK will never deflect cuz parrying is ***GUARANTEED*** guardbreak and dose hell of alot more dmg... by your logic pk is not fulfilling her job same for orochi.

Go ahead deny it and sound like a hipicrit


I have a buddy who mains a PK. He deflects on a regular basis. Just because YOU don't do it does not mean NOBODY does it.


She is fulfilling her job just fine when people decide to play her that way.


You can play a character outside of their job. That does not mean they don't have one.


Valkyrie is considered a Disabler due to her Sweep move and her shield knock down. I myself rarely use either because I prefer to use her are a hit and run type option.


Does that mean she is not capable of doing her job? No. It means that I as a player choose to not play her that way.


PK is STILL a counter attacker even though some people don't play her that way.




Keep trying though. :)

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 05:44 AM
I have a buddy who mains a PK. He deflects on a regular basis. Just because YOU don't do it does not mean NOBODY does it.


She is fulfilling her job just fine when people decide to play her that way.


You can play a character outside of their job. That does not mean they don't have one.


Valkyrie is considered a Disabler due to her Sweep move and her shield knock down. I myself rarely use either because I prefer to use her are a hit and run type option.


Does that mean she is not capable of doing her job? No. It means that I as a player choose to not play her that way.


PK is STILL a counter attacker even though some people don't play her that way.




Keep trying though. :)

I'm actually baffled by this response. You just totally ignored the fact that it's inefficient to play her as a counter attacker. And tried use "don't have to play by her job"
To justify it....

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 05:49 AM
I'm actually baffled by this response. You just totally ignored the fact that it's inefficient to play her as a counter attacker. And tried use "don't have to play by her job"
To justify it....


Its inefficient. Not impossible.


Its not that she CANNOT do her job.


Its just that there are better ways to play her.


How does this confuse you?


Also we have gotten off track you completely ignored all of the completely valid downsides to the Shugoki grab in order to discuss the PK due to your own asinine comment. I am done discussing that because the grab is the topic of the thread and I am done derailing the thread over it.


Back to the subject at hand. The Shugoki's grab has the numerous downsides that I listed.


Your response?

Dizzy4213
03-20-2017, 05:58 AM
Most ppl you mentioned only stagger you and most time ppl won't have time capitalize on it...also if like to throw in the added bonus he can 1 shot you others cant? Also all the above can be knocked out of it with a zone attack with the exemption of valkyrie and shigoki

If you don't want add immunity to to player then remove immunity from the shigoki?

It feels like I'm talking to a brick wall. Did you not read anything? "Most people won't have time to capitalise on it." Yeah sure, if you use it once that is. But if you're trying to fend of 2 attackers and I'm spamming you with Warlord headbutts constantly stunning you for a few seconds. You can sure as hell bet you won't survive for very long.

Shugoki can be knocked out with an attack provided his stance is consumed. Which in a team fight is highly likely as his team mates can also remove his stance from him.

I can't count the amount of times I've tried to Demons Embrace someone with critical health, only to be hit by a stray zone attack or killed by my own teammates who also attack me before the heal triggers.

Of all the moves listed, Shugoki's Demons Embrace is by far the least obnoxious and easiest to counter.

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 06:02 AM
It feels like I'm talking to a brick wall.


Its because you are.


His argument is essentially "SHUGOKI GRAB OP CUZ REASONS"


Then he gets mad when people bring facts to the table.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 06:03 AM
Its inefficient. Not impossible.


Its not that she CANNOT do her job.


Its just that there are better ways to play her.


How does this confuse you?


Also we have gotten off track you completely ignored all of the completely valid downsides to the Shugoki grab in order to discuss the PK due to your own asinine comment. I am done discussing that because the grab is the topic of the thread and I am done derailing the thread over it.


Back to the subject at hand. The Shugoki's grab has the numerous downsides that I listed.


Your response?

Ok sure

Shigoki can grabs you he heals he misses he losses hp thats fine reward for landing a hard skill.also like to throw in that same skill can 1 shot you

Now in a team fight all of the negative of using this skill are non existent unless of course your opponent is locked onto you

Soo now you have a skill that
*is extremely easy land
*heals you
*takes 2 bars of damage OR flat out one shot you
* guarantees each person on your team at least 2-3 top heavys

Now let's say for some stupid reason you do miss in a team fight

*You lose 2 bars of hp
*maybe lose all your stamina? (Not sure)

It is very unlikely people are going turn around and attack you esp if you only lost 2 bars. And tbh missing a grab in a team fight is pretty damn hard

In 1v1 this skill is perfect

CoyoteXStarrk
03-20-2017, 06:12 AM
Ok sure

Shigoki can grabs you he heals he misses he losses hp thats fine reward for landing a hard skill.also like to throw in that same skill can 1 shot you

Now in a team fight all of the negative of using this skill are non existent unless of course your opponent is locked onto you

Soo now you have a skill that
*is extremely easy land
*heals you
*takes 2 bars of damage OR flat out one shot you
* guarantees each person on your team at least 2-3 top heavys

Now let's say for some stupid reason you do miss in a team fight

*You lose 2 bars of hp
*maybe lose all your stamina? (Not sure)

It is very unlikely people are going turn around and attack you esp if you only lost 2 bars. And tbh missing a grab in a team fight is pretty damn hard

In 1v1 this skill is perfect


Okay so you are saying the ability is fine unless its against multiple people.


1) If you are outnumbered then you are screwed 90% of the time anyway unless you run away like a coward

2) In that same situation a Lawbringer or Nobushi is pretty much just as bad. You wanna complain about them to?

3) That same Shugoki can walk up to and unblockable heavy you into oblivion rather than grab you

4) In the SAME situation with a different hero that enemy instead of grabbing you is just gonna combo you.

5) Also at least if you DO decide to run a Shugoki has NO WAY to catch you. Another hero instead can just chase you.



You are essentially just yelling at the clouds for raining at this point.

The_B0G_
03-20-2017, 06:21 AM
I main the fat man mostly for this exact reason in Dominion; it's a fantastic revenge neutralizer.

It warms my heart to see a Conqueror or Warlord shrugging off the attacks of an entire team, smugly confident in their ability to farm revenge in two or three hits, only to be unceremoniously hoisted up on a fat, sweaty shoulder before being beaten like a Meat PiŮata™. I LIKE MY CONQUEROR MEAT TENDER, and the salt from the recently chiropracted just adds to the flavor. Bonus points if you hoist them after the triumphant revenge activation animation.

Shugobro a disabler, and revenge farmers hate that, in any form. I see people complaining about the Conqueror's shield charge, the Lawbringer's hilarious pancake flip, and even the Warlord's headbutt, simply because they are great tools for negating godmode, and dammit, what good is all this fancy revenge gear if you can't solo an entire team?

In 1v1, the Shug is merely competitive, where the embrace is only guaranteed after a wall throw, and a near suicidal gimmick outside that. In Dominion, he's like a morbidly obese land shark - you can deal with him if you pay attention to him, but if you ignore him, he gets a free meal.

^ This is bang on, I call him the fat ninja, unless he has top revenge gear, he is fairly easy to beat solo, but when he has help you usually want to kill his help first and you usually pay with your life if you ignore him too much because he'll sneak up with either an unblockable heavy, or the bear hug.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-20-2017, 06:23 AM
Okay so you are saying the ability is fine unless its against multiple people.


1) If you are outnumbered then you are screwed 90% of the time anyway unless you run away like a coward

2) In that same situation a Lawbringer or Nobushi is pretty much just as bad. You wanna complain about them to?

3) That same Shugoki can walk up to and unblockable heavy you into oblivion rather than grab you

4) In the SAME situation with a different hero that enemy instead of grabbing you is just gonna combo you.

5) Also at least if you DO decide to run a Shugoki has NO WAY to catch you. Another hero instead can just chase you.

1) actually 1v4 is easy unless a shigoki grabs you

2)Lawbringer is just as guilty but at least hitting him stops his long arm attack (immunity should be added for this skill also)

Nobushi is a stagger at most MAYBE 1 person will land a top heavy

3)unblockable heavys are telegraphed very well
*he screams
*he has fire around him
*and your block thing is bright a$$ red with a "!"

4 )grabs are can be counter guardbroken (maybe 1 attack will hit you in the .5 sec counter guard break animation)

5)running is the only viable thing you said.
Running is a option but at same time not all classes can outrun 4 ppl

SangLong524
03-20-2017, 07:15 AM
1) actually 1v4 is easy unless a shigoki grabs you

2)Lawbringer is just as guilty but at least hitting him stops his long arm attack (immunity should be added for this skill also)

Nobushi is a stagger at most MAYBE 1 person will land a top heavy

3)unblockable heavys are telegraphed very well
*he screams
*he has fire around him
*and your block thing is bright a$$ red with a "!"

4 )grabs are can be counter guardbroken (maybe 1 attack will hit you in the .5 sec counter guard break animation)

5)running is the only viable thing you said.
Running is a option but at same time not all classes can outrun 4 ppl
Hey, when u put yourself in a 1vs4, u accept the risk entails. That means DEATH.
So what is exactly your problem? That shugoki prevent u solo the entire team of 4 on your own term, your way? Now that completely irresponsible and childish.
Last i check, speed is individual. U can totally out run 4 people. I outrun everyone with my nobushi. Its not that their speed added together. Nonsense!
I wont argue with this any further unless present with more facts than emotion fueled b****ing.

Kiiyor
03-20-2017, 09:25 AM
What bothers ppl is if you are not locked onto him and he grabs you one time your dead his whole team can top heavy you 2-3 times before you get up...

Now that's just hyperbole. Have you ever actually attacked someone on a Shugoki's shoulder? 2-3 top heavies, lol. Stamina, animation time and positioning aside, that's ludicrous - and it's not nearly half as bad as the conquerors running knockdown. I have personally witnessed multiple occasions where the whole team has been able to attack with eleventy billion top heavies and combos whilst pausing in between to complete full emotes after a conqueror shield charge. #nerftherah

Semantics aside, we're arguing about the survival of a player being attacked by 4 players here. It's a sad indicator of the state of the defensive meta and revenge that people expect to be able to survive this, and it's an even sadder indicator of the state of player's mindsets that they would be angry at characters who are designed to be strong in multiple player engagements, and to break through said defensive meta.

Devastatius
07-05-2018, 01:22 PM
It is just stupid that he can kill you just like that with ONE attack that is hard to doge and, yes while it DOES reduce his health if it misses, it will STOP doing that if this would kill him. So as soon as his health is bellow the last bar and his opponents health is still ... maybe FULL, he has literally nothing to loose and can then just ONE HIT?!? And to add insult to injury he even REGENERATES a scaling amount of health from this WTF. I mean if someone ledges you that is one thing, you can at least look upon such a trick and think: ... Yeah :rolleyes:. BUT NOT with the stupid ONEHIT Grab. I mean ... srsly. The Shaman can do something similar, and while I kind of laugh about that bite move :o It at LEAST is not even half as broken as the Shugoki Grab. Because despite of its regenerative ability it is still just a more or less regular attack. It cannot onehit. Now here is what should be done, and keep in mind that he actually gets MORE health the more injured the Shugoki is: Remove its ability to onehit, and remove the mechanic that increases the amount of health he regenerates the more hurt he is, and if that is too much nerf then maybe make it harder to doge again, and noone sais that it should not regenerate quite a bit health. But just not as much as he gets when he ONEHITS right now :(

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
07-07-2018, 12:29 AM
I'd just like to say something about demons embrace. The tracking is horrible and getting damaged for a hug is stupid considering raiders charge is superior in nearly every way alone with shamans bite.
I use it allot in dominion during battle not just wall spats. The are certain times when the risk Vs reward of a demons embrace are worth it. Landing a demons embrace is all about perfect timing and misdirection imo. Even then, with the opponent stand perfectly still, the DE will fail for no reason at all.
That said one of my favorite times to hug is when the person being ganked has no choice but to pop revenge as soon as he gets it. Pressing the revenge button is now a game of Russian roulette with four bullets in the chambers and guess whose up first?
If u die trying a de odds are good your team mates will revive you anyways. Just last night as a hail marry attempt to win a dominion match I landed two miracle DE s in two separate games winning the dominion games with the one shot kill. Were they fair? Yes. Without a doubt. Considering all I had to go through to get that desperate..the death sentence it means If I miss it.. And the ridicule I'd probably get from teammates for dropping the ball on a near impossible shot...yea it's more than fair.

ChampionRuby50g
07-07-2018, 12:54 AM
So before this thread gets closed for necromancy, I just wanna say:

If you are getting hit by DE outside of been wall splatted or in a gank situation, thatís on you. If you struggle to dodge a move thatís 1200ms and has a massive start up, maybe you need to work on your dodging.

I disagree with the One shot kill on DE, and you should be knocked out of DE if enemies hit you, or you have revenge during that duration.

PS to the mod who will close this thread: why do you close threads that are old and have comments on them again? Is it that you prefer newer topics be made as many of the original commenters in the thread may no longer be active on the forums?

UbiJurassic
07-07-2018, 01:36 AM
So before this thread gets closed for necromancy, I just wanna say:

If you are getting hit by DE outside of been wall splatted or in a gank situation, thatís on you. If you struggle to dodge a move thatís 1200ms and has a massive start up, maybe you need to work on your dodging.

I disagree with the One shot kill on DE, and you should be knocked out of DE if enemies hit you, or you have revenge during that duration.

PS to the mod who will close this thread: why do you close threads that are old and have comments on them again? Is it that you prefer newer topics be made as many of the original commenters in the thread may no longer be active on the forums?

Very old threads that receive new comments are usually closed to prevent confusion from what has been said in the past and now. The game has changed quite a bit from March 20th of 2017 (the last time this thread was active) and now. In order to keep conversations relevant to the current state of the game, we encourage players who want to discuss it to create new threads.

That said, we'll be closing this thread.