PDA

View Full Version : Shugoki Balancing Thoughts?



Deadly Ire
03-17-2017, 03:27 PM
The more I play as shugoki the more I am confused. I can't decide if he's balanced or not. I think the one thing he has that is unfair is his grab, (Free one after a wall throw) not because of its damage, but because it heals him, and more specifically that it can instakill a player with full health if they've beaten him to a stump. I wan't to hear everyone's thoughts on this, especially shoguki mains.

Pope138
03-17-2017, 04:07 PM
The free grab after a wall slam I equate with environmental kills. Once you know they exist it's up to you to avoid them.
Shug was the hero I had the most trouble fighting, but I spent a couple hours training against him and he isn't as much of a challenge now.

secrecy274
03-17-2017, 04:32 PM
Well, my only problem with him is the hyper-armor.

Operch
03-17-2017, 05:14 PM
He pays a pretty hefty price for his tools. He's slower than an autistic sloth and most of his damage is easily avoided or parried.

dayLockey
03-17-2017, 05:25 PM
Shugoki is the most balanced of the 3 heavy heroes that are available now. If you're having trouble vs. Shugoki, here's a tip: DO NOT TRADE BLOWS WITH HIM. THAT IS WHAT HE WANTS.

Pope138
03-17-2017, 05:28 PM
If you're good at CGB and know when to dodge his unblockables he's not so tough.

massive02
03-17-2017, 05:33 PM
I think he's pretty well balanced. If there was one thing I would change it's his bear hug 1 shot. I don't think it should ever kill someone, but rather leave them with 1 bar of life instead, unless they are already at 1 bar of life then I think it should kill them. The heal on it is fine.

T1brys
03-18-2017, 02:39 AM
lemme guess, you're a fanboy of OP things and really loves them?

the Shugoki is op, totally op. and needs to eather be nerfed and balanced out to the other heroes, or removed fully from the game, as it stands right now, a team with ONE Shugoki can win extremly easy, and a team with 2 or more Shugoki's will win, hands down. i took 3 new players, did some runs with 2 , 3 and 4 Shugoki's, and none of us had any experience with that op hero, guess what, we won 10 of 10 matches without even having to concentrate.

Not op? well, if thats the case, i dont like beers, or wiskey, or my cuban cigarrs, and the earth is flat and North Korea has unicorns living in a cave, and they accually managed to land on the dark side of the sun.. ( check it out, they accually have claimed it )

suboptiml
03-18-2017, 05:19 PM
He's fine. Throwing into a wall is a guaranteed, high-damage strike for anyone. His does heal, yes, but he also takes increased damage when his hyper-armor is down.

He wants to trade blows. Don't. Watch for the hyper-armor flash.

His ability to one-shot with Demon's Embrace is as cheese as it gets, no argument. It rewards the Shugoki for having gotten outplayed throughout the fight. One-shots simply don't belong. This seems obvious, but sometimes developers fall way too in love with their own ideas and refuse to see how something is broken/op/unfair when in practice. This is a good example of that.

I love Shugoki as is. He's my second favorite to play at the moment. But Demon's Embrace one-shotting is brokenly OP and has no place in a game that wants to reward skillful play.

IamheiN
03-18-2017, 05:36 PM
I'm sorry but u two are talking nonsense, the one-shot ability from demon's embrace is good at it is, you KNOW that he's going to do demon's embrace when he's low on health, just do a sidestep and a light attack and he's dead because a failed demon's embrace left the shugoki with 1 hp. The same with Hyper Armor, he need that to trade blows, because he's slow as ****, just don't trade heavies and you are more than fine.

Shugoki atm is if not the most, one of the most balanced characters, he's just a big and slow meat ball with some tricks.

If u want to talk about nerfs then we can start talking about warlord, the safest and strongest character with a lot of ******ed tricks like headbutt spam, insane throws, guaranteed heavys, broken pasives etc.

I'm sorry guys but this is more an L2P issue from you both than a real balance problem.

ShadowBandit39
03-18-2017, 06:29 PM
Shoguki isnt that bad.....have no real problems facing him.

But i still think the mechanic should be changed.....getting health back is just stupid. Get rid of that and the increase in demons embrace damage with lower health, and just make it a flat damage across the board.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-18-2017, 06:57 PM
The free grab after a wall slam I equate with environmental kills. Once you know they exist it's up to you to avoid them.
Shug was the hero I had the most trouble fighting, but I spent a couple hours training against him and he isn't as much of a challenge now.

I'm starting think your a warlord with max throw...only comments I see from you involving environmental kills are "it's perfect" btw devs already said its a problem

Deadly Ire
04-24-2017, 07:51 PM
Thanks for the reply. I can tell you thought about it. I tend to agree. I still don't see how a heal of any kind is fair. In gametypes without feats and gear, this can be really problematic. However, I think that has more to do with how hard it is to open a player up in this game in general. The one shot is as you say the biggest issue with the class that really ought to be dealt with. I 'd say my final opinion is that the healing needs a reduction and not a removal, whereas one hit ought to be removed all together.

Wrayth-Zero
04-24-2017, 08:20 PM
I think that Shugoki is fine. Although I will admit that it was a huge headache to play him until I got to prestige 3 and got decent gear (same with all I know). But I agree that he is really easy to kill. A lot of his stuff is unsafe, and it's all about learning when and where to use said abilities. Personally, I spend most of my time doing Light Attack > Headbutt, after all I am a disabler.

I do wonder how the Charge of the Oni nerf will work though. If it no longer knocks down (Which it doesn't half the time anyways due to latency and hit box issues), then how will it be used, how will it "Disrupt" as the Devs put it?

KiahsRevenge
04-25-2017, 02:32 AM
if you just start or rarely fight him then of course it's going to be a challenge. He is so slow with a limited move set. He has literally one light attack into headbut. That's it for his light combos his heavy is heavy attack heavy attack that's it. Of course is charge up heavy but everything is so easy to dodge or parry. His charge back breaker deft needs to be changed a bit. I have a rep one almost rep 2 and almost never use the back breaker move. It's incredibly easy to dodge. Once that happens I'm boned!

In a 4vs4 game mode his back breaker ( forgot the name of the move) can be exploited to no end. It's unfair how my teammates can just spam moves to the poor soul who is stuck in his embrace and have no defense except waiting for his death. That need to be changed: make it so the person getting his back broke cannot take damage from your teammates until he is up again. If anything it would be nice to have a another combo or two to mix things up. Once you know how to fight him he is easy. Keep your distance and watch out for the embrace!

kweassa1917
04-25-2017, 03:10 AM
if you just start or rarely fight him then of course it's going to be a challenge. He is so slow with a limited move set. He has literally one light attack into headbut. That's it for his light combos his heavy is heavy attack heavy attack that's it. Of course is charge up heavy but everything is so easy to dodge or parry. His charge back breaker deft needs to be changed a bit. I have a rep one almost rep 2 and almost never use the back breaker move. It's incredibly easy to dodge. Once that happens I'm boned!

In a 4vs4 game mode his back breaker ( forgot the name of the move) can be exploited to no end. It's unfair how my teammates can just spam moves to the poor soul who is stuck in his embrace and have no defense except waiting for his death. That need to be changed: make it so the person getting his back broke cannot take damage from your teammates until he is up again. If anything it would be nice to have a another combo or two to mix things up. Once you know how to fight him he is easy. Keep your distance and watch out for the embrace!

You've actually got that backwards :D

There's no reason Shug lights and GB need to be protected by UI (uninterruptable), but OTOH Demon's Embrace is fine. :D

Antonioj26
04-25-2017, 03:37 AM
I'm sorry but u two are talking nonsense, the one-shot ability from demon's embrace is good at it is, you KNOW that he's going to do demon's embrace when he's low on health, just do a sidestep and a light attack and he's dead because a failed demon's embrace left the shugoki with 1 hp. The same with Hyper Armor, he need that to trade blows, because he's slow as ****, just don't trade heavies and you are more than fine.

Shugoki atm is if not the most, one of the most balanced characters, he's just a big and slow meat ball with some tricks.

If u want to talk about nerfs then we can start talking about warlord, the safest and strongest character with a lot of ******ed tricks like headbutt spam, insane throws, guaranteed heavys, broken pasives etc.

I'm sorry guys but this is more an L2P issue from you both than a real balance problem.

He's definitely high tier. In the top 5 at the very least. Yes you shouldn't be getting hit by raw demons embraces but there are ways to get hit by it I.e. Wallstun or knockdown. His oni charge could be used as a 50/50 with a guaranteed heavy at the end of it. Now with the oni charge being nerfed he may be starting fall to mid tier but even then I don't quite think so. We won't know until next patch.

Knight_Raime
04-25-2017, 03:47 AM
Hard to say. On one hand since he is actually really benifitting from the defensive meta he feels super strong.
on the other it's easy to pick a shugoki apart if you're smart about it.
I think the only thing that makes him a bit OP at the moment (aside from stupid inidicator bugs) is the ability to insta kill someone with a wall stun. He shouldn't be able to kill someone with that unless they are within one hit range on a heavy. And the health he gets should be fixed. not scaling depending on how much he's lost.

kweassa1917
04-25-2017, 04:03 AM
He's definitely high tier. In the top 5 at the very least. Yes you shouldn't be getting hit by raw demons embraces but there are ways to get hit by it I.e. Wallstun or knockdown. His oni charge could be used as a 50/50 with a guaranteed heavy at the end of it. Now with the oni charge being nerfed he may be starting fall to mid tier but even then I don't quite think so. We won't know until next patch.

Meh.. I'd rate him at the middle or upper-middle tier.

He's got more stuff up his sleeve than people think, but there's a critical piece missing from his kit that makes him lag behind the undisputed OP classes -- and that's the quick, easy, unblockable+unparriable spam skill with special effects and guaranteed extra damage. The reason OP classes became OP, is because they have these spammed UBs which becomes a means to smash through other people's "turtling" meta. Of the 4 "OP" classes people usually pick out, 3 of them have these, and the only exception being PK which is a unique case where it simply overwhelms average player reflex with light spams -- a rare method to smash the standard "turtle".

This, is why the "RunGoki" tactic was invented. Analytically speaking, it's basically a makeshift "spammable unblockable" move that's got special effects (knockdown) and offers guaranteed hits (guaranteed heavy)". In other words, the "RunGoki" is an attempt to replicate what the OP classes have in their kit!

But now that's gonna be fixed in 1.06, well, he's a tier or two below the OP classes -- alongside Lawbringers, IMO.

Antonioj26
04-25-2017, 04:17 AM
Meh.. I'd rate him at the middle or upper-middle tier.

He's got more stuff up his sleeve than people think, but there's a critical piece missing from his kit that makes him lag behind the undisputed OP classes -- and that's the quick, easy, unblockable+unparriable spam skill with special effects and guaranteed extra damage. The reason OP classes became OP, is because they have these spammed UBs which becomes a means to smash through other people's "turtling" meta. Of the 4 "OP" classes people usually pick out, 3 of them have these, and the only exception being PK which is a unique case where it simply overwhelms average player reflex with light spams -- a rare method to smash the standard "turtle".

This, is why the "RunGoki" tactic was invented. Analytically speaking, it's basically a makeshift "spammable unblockable" move that's got special effects (knockdown) and offers guaranteed hits (guaranteed heavy)". In other words, the "RunGoki" is an attempt to replicate what the OP classes have in their kit!

But now that's gonna be fixed in 1.06, well, he's a tier or two below the OP classes -- alongside Lawbringers, IMO.

Yes the "rungoki" as you call it was why I put him in high tier. There isn't really a counter to it. If you dodge he can GB, if you try and anticipate the gb and stand there then you can get charged, if you try to do a dash attack then he can cancel into parry, roll away and it's reset and you've used a large of stamina, attack him and his super armor will prevent him from stopping and he can charge through it, if you manage to get the gb he can cgb and reset The Whole thing over again. I agree he will probably fall a bit after the oni nerf but if we are talking about him in his current state, he has a tool with utility that no one aside from maybe warden even comes close to having.