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solho
03-16-2017, 10:10 PM
All class need same speed for guard change, its ridiculous that some are faster and adding that the connection p2p that sometimes causes delays in changing guards, sometimes.. almost always.

XImohtephXX
03-16-2017, 10:12 PM
Also taking into account recovery time is different on some character. Makes it an uphill battle to play a character slower than an assassin.

ParadigmFringe
03-16-2017, 10:34 PM
i would use the realism argument, but enough of this game is unrealistic that i have to agree with you. from a balance perspective, every character should change block speed at the same rate. i main LB, and while it's not insurmountable, PK lightspam and Zerk infinite can be a pain in the *** to counter. they attack fast as it is, and i have the lowest block speed in the game, i also have slow attacks, so they can just start up again any time i try to fight back.

Valtaya
03-16-2017, 10:52 PM
All class need same speed for guard change, its ridiculous that some are faster and adding that the connection p2p that sometimes causes delays in changing guards, sometimes.. almost always.

simple answer: no

little argumentation: if you want same change guard speed, then you also want same attack speed across all classes, same damage, same hitpoints and same range. Why don't we remove all classes/heroes and have just one left (actualy, I would like that, still, some weapons are faster)? Btw, the problem with the guard on some classes (lawbringer, shugoki, nobushi) is, because they change grip... nobushi: left guard... holds spear with right hand (center) for control and the end by left hand for balance... change guard stance to right... leads to change grip to hold spear with left hand (center) and the end with right hand... what the f.... maybe I am missing here something, but that does not "seem" right to me. Well, I am only proficient with a sword so, gues I would use a long weapon (polearm, spear) the wrong way.

Wolf-Heathen
03-16-2017, 11:00 PM
simple answer: no

little argumentation: if you want same change guard speed, then you also want same attack speed across all classes, same damage, same hitpoints and same range. Why don't we remove all classes/heroes and have just one left (actualy, I would like that, still, some weapons are faster)? Btw, the problem with the guard on some classes (lawbringer, shugoki, nobushi) is, because they change grip... nobushi: left guard... holds spear with right hand (center) for control and the end by left hand for balance... change guard stance to right... leads to change grip to hold spear with left hand (center) and the end with right hand... what the f.... maybe I am missing here something, but that does not "seem" right to me. Well, I am only proficient with a sword so, gues I would use a long weapon (polearm, spear) the wrong way.

No, actually he doesn't want normalized attack, damage and hit points across the classes. How you do you conflate normalized guard change speeds, with every class being exactly the same?? Nice straw man fallacy there.

dayLockey
03-16-2017, 11:05 PM
i would use the realism argument, but enough of this game is unrealistic that i have to agree with you. from a balance perspective, every character should change block speed at the same rate. i main LB, and while it's not insurmountable, PK lightspam and Zerk infinite can be a pain in the *** to counter. they attack fast as it is, and i have the lowest block speed in the game, i also have slow attacks, so they can just start up again any time i try to fight back.

I used to main Nobushi but recently changed to PK simply because I was so tired of the over abundance of Assassin/Warden/Warlord/Conq players.

CLaw2017
03-16-2017, 11:18 PM
I agree.

Valtaya
03-16-2017, 11:40 PM
All class need same speed for guard change, its ridiculous that some are faster and adding that the connection p2p that sometimes causes delays in changing guards, sometimes.. almost always.


No, actually he doesn't want normalized attack, damage and hit points across the classes. How you do you conflate normalized guard change speeds, with every class being exactly the same?? Nice straw man fallacy there.

well he said "all class same speed for guard change"... ok english is not my first language, but I gues I understood that

if guard speed changes, then what... have same guard speed with polearm (lawbringer) as with arming sword (peacekeeper), but the range of the arming sword stays the same, as of the polearm? I tell you here something, just an example. If you activate revenge and are being hit, your oponend is knocked down and knocked back. Virtualy ANY class, especialy those with "long weapons" can now use a heavy strike to hit you, while you are on the ground lying... except for the peacekeeper, who actualy have to dash forward to come into range again. So basicaly f*** u, you want to change guard speed? Fine, but then you ahve to change everything. Simple? Well, maybe not for you.

Oh and btw, when they "generalize" the weapons, what is next... maybe you start complaining about the small hit box of the PK as well and say "oh this poor poor poor lawbringer/raider/shugoki they are so big, they can't fit into a small corridor, but can face TWO (oh dear oh dear) Peacekeepers and once while alone, that is not bearable, change change change!!!!!!!!!!!111".... yah whatever.

Keep the advantage of the polearm in game (range) but remove the disadvantage (speed), yah that is the way how to balance things. If you can not keep a PK at a distance, then you do something wrong.

rocketdrive
03-17-2017, 10:21 AM
well he said "all class same speed for guard change"... ok english is not my first language, but I gues I understood that

if guard speed changes, then what... have same guard speed with polearm (lawbringer) as with arming sword (peacekeeper), but the range of the arming sword stays the same, as of the polearm? I tell you here something, just an example. If you activate revenge and are being hit, your oponend is knocked down and knocked back. Virtualy ANY class, especialy those with "long weapons" can now use a heavy strike to hit you, while you are on the ground lying... except for the peacekeeper, who actualy have to dash forward to come into range again. So basicaly f*** u, you want to change guard speed? Fine, but then you ahve to change everything. Simple? Well, maybe not for you.

Oh and btw, when they "generalize" the weapons, what is next... maybe you start complaining about the small hit box of the PK as well and say "oh this poor poor poor lawbringer/raider/shugoki they are so big, they can't fit into a small corridor, but can face TWO (oh dear oh dear) Peacekeepers and once while alone, that is not bearable, change change change!!!!!!!!!!!111".... yah whatever.

Keep the advantage of the polearm in game (range) but remove the disadvantage (speed), yah that is the way how to balance things. If you can not keep a PK at a distance, then you do something wrong.

"Waaah my peacekeeper light spam is the only way I win waaah" is all I'm reading.


Go play lawbringer until you are rep 1. Don't play any other class until you reach rep 1 lawbringer. THEN think about how valid your realism argument is against game balance. I mean realistically the knights have this by a massive technological advantage. I don't see you crying about that.

Try to argue with things that Have happened and not things that are going to happen. The last time a large group of people argued like you, they all said the world would end 4 years ago.

sd_fungi
03-17-2017, 11:45 AM
well he said "all class same speed for guard change"... ok english is not my first language, but I gues I understood that

if guard speed changes, then what... have same guard speed with polearm (lawbringer) as with arming sword (peacekeeper), but the range of the arming sword stays the same, as of the polearm? I tell you here something, just an example. If you activate revenge and are being hit, your oponend is knocked down and knocked back. Virtualy ANY class, especialy those with "long weapons" can now use a heavy strike to hit you, while you are on the ground lying... except for the peacekeeper, who actualy have to dash forward to come into range again. So basicaly f*** u, you want to change guard speed? Fine, but then you ahve to change everything. Simple? Well, maybe not for you.

Oh and btw, when they "generalize" the weapons, what is next... maybe you start complaining about the small hit box of the PK as well and say "oh this poor poor poor lawbringer/raider/shugoki they are so big, they can't fit into a small corridor, but can face TWO (oh dear oh dear) Peacekeepers and once while alone, that is not bearable, change change change!!!!!!!!!!!111".... yah whatever.

Keep the advantage of the polearm in game (range) but remove the disadvantage (speed), yah that is the way how to balance things. If you can not keep a PK at a distance, then you do something wrong.

I just finish a match against a Peace Keeper as Nobushi, after every parry and GB I landed the PK recovered instantly, giving me no chance to inflict damage. On the other hand if I got hit once by the PK I was staggered and took 2 full 3 hit combos before control of my hero was returned to me. Also I have noticed since I started play Nobushi that attacks performed by Heroes such as PK and Conq, that have a spinning animation (not a dodge or a zone attack) allow them to "avoid" a thrust attack.

When a PK can land a gap closing Heavy attack faster than I can land a light attack there is a problem.

chiller2k3
03-17-2017, 12:04 PM
Hm, duno.. I play LB and cannot really complain having a lot more trouble with his guard change then with others. If you miss blocking/parrying the first attack (which is not faster than from other classes, 15 frames (guess what, LB top light 15 frames!)) you will have a hard time for that combo (2 additional hits +zone) and then resetting and getting your second chance to interrupt that incoming damage.

I will also go one step further: The LB has the same guard change timing like ANY other class! The only thing is, the visual appearance seems slower, but the actual block is as fast as with others!
Don't believe me? Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmFI_67czp8
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmFI_67czp8)

I for myself don't have more problems with LB as with others..

Cheers

Turric4n666
03-17-2017, 12:11 PM
While we are at it, different run speeds need to go because that's clearly imbalanced.

chiller2k3
03-17-2017, 12:14 PM
Also, you complain about the gap closer of PK? I can tell you, he cannot even use it, because either my guard is Top anyways or he will get parried for about 80% of the time.
By any means, I hate playing against PK. he's hella fast and I often struggle against him and see my health melting.. but then I get through, let her feel my combo and 70% of her health is gone and the fight is reset..
Sure I loose against them.. but, sure I win against them

the problem as we all know is, that she is a noob (not meant mean, more like beginner) killer and you will struggle against her a lot if you are not aware of what she can do (and especially what she can NOT do) and what your character is capable of.

For example: Learned today that parrying a light attack (not that easy for sure) with LB will get me my unblockable of (it’s not parryable or dogeable!!) Eat that PK ;P

Cheers

Valtaya
03-17-2017, 01:20 PM
"Waaah my peacekeeper light spam is the only way I win waaah" is all I'm reading.


Go play lawbringer until you are rep 1. Don't play any other class until you reach rep 1 lawbringer. THEN think about how valid your realism argument is against game balance. I mean realistically the knights have this by a massive technological advantage. I don't see you crying about that.

Try to argue with things that Have happened and not things that are going to happen. The last time a large group of people argued like you, they all said the world would end 4 years ago.

Have not said that once... on the other hand, all I read is "buhuhu I am so unskilled, nerf everyone but my class".

And I do not have to play a lawbringer. My best friend, who I always play with, mains a lawbringer, so I know what he can do and what not. And while he do not enjoy fighting PKs, a PK is surely not his worst nightmare.


I just finish a match against a Peace Keeper as Nobushi, after every parry and GB I landed the PK recovered instantly, giving me no chance to inflict damage. On the other hand if I got hit once by the PK I was staggered and took 2 full 3 hit combos before control of my hero was returned to me. Also I have noticed since I started play Nobushi that attacks performed by Heroes such as PK and Conq, that have a spinning animation (not a dodge or a zone attack) allow them to "avoid" a thrust attack.

When a PK can land a gap closing Heavy attack faster than I can land a light attack there is a problem.

I experience the same with my PK and not just vs Nobushi, this is a problem with the game (usualy connection) and not PK related.


Also, you complain about the gap closer of PK? I can tell you, he cannot even use it, because either my guard is Top anyways or he will get parried for about 80% of the time.
By any means, I hate playing against PK. he's hella fast and I often struggle against him and see my health melting.. but then I get through, let her feel my combo and 70% of her health is gone and the fight is reset..
Sure I loose against them.. but, sure I win against them

the problem as we all know is, that she is a noob (not meant mean, more like beginner) killer and you will struggle against her a lot if you are not aware of what she can do (and especially what she can NOT do) and what your character is capable of.

For example: Learned today that parrying a light attack (not that easy for sure) with LB will get me my unblockable of (it’s not parryable or dogeable!!) Eat that PK ;P

Cheers

Thanks.

PK is surely a very easy beginner class for multiplayer, even with heavy lag you can deal out some light attacks and light combos. And executing them is not that hard either... but as people get more experience iwth other classes, learn them, their counters, their moves... PK is no longer such a thread. You know, when not playing my PK, I rather face other Pks then actualy nobushis or shugokis or kensei or conquerors.

Iuslez_
03-17-2017, 03:36 PM
PK is surely a very easy beginner class for multiplayer, even with heavy lag you can deal out some light attacks and light combos. And executing them is not that hard either... but as people get more experience iwth other classes, learn them, their counters, their moves... PK is no longer such a thread. You know, when not playing my PK, I rather face other Pks then actualy nobushis or shugokis or kensei or conquerors.
PKs like to tell that, but it's simply not true. That class has - with warlord - won the most tournaments in that game. So no, whatever the skill, PK is a threat in that game.

Hammelsneid
03-17-2017, 04:58 PM
Seems my question rather fits the topic: I realized that I am able to block the Light Attack Combo from a Valkyrie way better and more often with a Valkyrie than with my main, the berserker. Same setup, same monitor same everything exept the class (playing with controller). Is the berserker intended to have a slower guard switch speed than the valkyrie? Because moving two 1h axes seems to me "easier" than moving a 2m spear and a buckler.. but maybe I am wrong.

Moondyne_MC
03-17-2017, 05:50 PM
Maybe it's because I'm in Australia, as all my friends have the same issue, but certain characters light combos are literally impossible for us to block. I'm a fairly decent blocker, but as a Nobushi a PK can take me from 100 to 0 with no repercussions just doing light spam. The same problem applies (albeit to a lesser extent) to Berserker and Valkyrie, and even the Orochi and Warden's zones. I can see the attack direction coming, move my stick that way and still take damage. It's pretty ridiculous to try and fight against.

Operch
03-17-2017, 06:02 PM
/signed

Some things should be different between the characters, but guard change speed is NOT one of them. Normalize it!!

Turric4n666
03-17-2017, 06:24 PM
/signed

Some things should be different between the characters, but guard change speed is NOT one of them. Normalize it!!

i am curious as to why that is. What makes guard change speed different to attack speed?

secrecy274
03-17-2017, 06:30 PM
i am curious as to why that is. What makes guard change speed different to attack speed?

Because attack speed can be balanced around other factors, like reach and damage, a heavy attack might be slower, yet do more damage. However, a faster Guard Change is just that, an advantage without drawbacks.

Turric4n666
03-17-2017, 06:32 PM
Because attack speed can be balanced around other factors, like reach and damage, a heavy attack might be slower, yet do more damage. However, a faster Guard Change is just that, an advantage without drawbacks.

you could increase the range of slower switching characters. Thatīs not a satisfying argument.
You could implement a character that can not block at all, but give him excellent dodge abilities and it could be balanced.

secrecy274
03-17-2017, 06:40 PM
you could increase the range of slower switching characters.Thatīs not a satisfying argument.
You could implement a character that can not block at all, but give him excellent dodge abilities and it could be balanced.

That's a possibility yes, however it wouldn't solve the problem with some characters (supposedly) not being able to switch guard fast enough to count for example light attacks from the Peacekeeper. Especially since it's possible for some heroes to do an attack that brings them sideways and forward enough to close the distance, while dodging.

EDIT: Neither is yours, "could be" doesn't mean "are".

Turric4n666
03-17-2017, 06:42 PM
That's a possibility yes, however it wouldn't solve the problem with some characters (supposedly) not being able to switch guard fast enough to count for example light attacks from the Peacekeeper. Especially since it's possible for some heroes to do an attack that brings them sideways and forward enough to close the distance, while dodging.

No class can block peacekeepers zone attack on reaction alone. The problem lies within an attack that has 18 frame startup imo.

secrecy274
03-17-2017, 06:55 PM
No class can block peacekeepers zone attack on reaction alone. The problem lies within an attack that has 18 frame startup imo.

While that's also a problem, it's not the same. To go back to previous post, dodge is currently one of the two basic defensive options in the game, the other being guard (block), but when a hero have both superior dodging abilities, and (supposedly) faster guard change, it's ultimately superior at both options. So when a hero that's supposedly meant to rely on dodging guards better than a hero that's supposedly better at guarding yet's still **** at dodging, it's not very balanced.

However, this is all hypothetical, I'm skeptical about the whole different guard change speeds until I see hard numbers.

Turric4n666
03-17-2017, 09:00 PM
While that's also a problem, it's not the same. To go back to previous post, dodge is currently one of the two basic defensive options in the game, the other being guard (block), but when a hero have both superior dodging abilities, and (supposedly) faster guard change, it's ultimately superior at both options. So when a hero that's supposedly meant to rely on dodging guards better than a hero that's supposedly better at guarding yet's still **** at dodging, it's not very balanced.

However, this is all hypothetical, I'm skeptical about the whole different guard change speeds until I see hard numbers.

guard change speed is same for every hero. The difference is that certain classes can not "cancel" their switch and go to another stance right away. They need to fully change into the guardstance which you input first, similar to a queue.

My theory is that they wanted to allow fast classes to feint better than slow classes, because thatīs what it ultimately allowes but didnīt think about the fact that feints now are faster than you can switch (which is really the only problem).

It is easily possible to block every non feinted attack on reaction alone, except certain attacks which always come from the same direction or have a distinct starting animation.

The problem lies in feints.

secrecy274
03-17-2017, 09:09 PM
guard change speed is same for every hero. The difference is that certain classes can not "cancel" their switch and go to another stance right away. They need to fully change into the guardstance which you input first, similar to a queue.

My theory is that they wanted to allow fast classes to feint better than slow classes, because thatīs what it ultimately allowes but didnīt think about the fact that feints now are faster than you can switch (which is really the only problem).

It is easily possible to block every non feinted attack on reaction alone, except certain attacks which always come from the same direction or have a distinct starting animation.

The problem lies in feints.

That sounds about right. Then I guess the problem with Peacekeeper light spam is that since you're staggered you only have time to switch stance one, which means if you get to the wrong one you don't have time to switch to the right one.

solho
03-17-2017, 09:27 PM
If we talk about realism, changing your guard continuously would have to lower stamina since it is humanly impossible to be infinitely changing your guard without getting tired. What I am talking about is the speed at which you change your guard, everyone would have to have the same for a balance in defense. Is supposed to be a competitive game, it can not be that only 4 classes are viable for these reasons, of course there will be classes that are strong and weak others, but the defense has to be almost the same for all, so that the difference marks the skills of a person and not the one of a class.
I think that first is the balance and then the realism, since there are many things that are not realistic in this game but are not far from reality.

secrecy274
03-17-2017, 09:41 PM
If we talk about realism, changing your guard continuously would have to lower stamina since it is humanly impossible to be infinitely changing your guard without getting tired. What I am talking about is the speed at which you change your guard, everyone would have to have the same for a balance in defense. Is supposed to be a competitive game, it can not be that only 4 classes are viable for these reasons, of course there will be classes that are strong and weak others, but the defense has to be almost the same for all, so that the difference marks the skills of a person and not the one of a class.
I think that first is the balance and then the realism, since there are many things that are not realistic in this game but are not far from reality.

*cought* Armors *cought* tissue paper *cought*

Thanapetus
03-17-2017, 09:46 PM
*cought* Armors *cought* tissue paper *cought*

Yeah, lets add true realism to the game. All bladed contact bleeds, and you can bleed out.
Limb dismemberment
Daggers do **** to plate
Archery and kunai do **** to plate
Danes axe and kanabo shatter shields
Cant dodge more than 1 or 2 feet and can get tired
Everything related to stamina
If you are holding a firebomb and get hit, self immolation
Catapults miss
Spawning

Minion damage X100

EDIT
Two second caresses bring you back to life

EDIT 2
I was proven wrong regarding shattering shields
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcfIZA4nmtc

sd_fungi
03-17-2017, 09:51 PM
Also, you complain about the gap closer of PK? I can tell you, he cannot even use it, because either my guard is Top anyways or he will get parried for about 80% of the time.
By any means, I hate playing against PK. he's hella fast and I often struggle against him and see my health melting.. but then I get through, let her feel my combo and 70% of her health is gone and the fight is reset..
Sure I loose against them.. but, sure I win against them

the problem as we all know is, that she is a noob (not meant mean, more like beginner) killer and you will struggle against her a lot if you are not aware of what she can do (and especially what she can NOT do) and what your character is capable of.

For example: Learned today that parrying a light attack (not that easy for sure) with LB will get me my unblockable of (it’s not parryable or dogeable!!) Eat that PK ;P

Cheers

I wasn't complaining about the PK gap closer, I was using it as another example of timing issue with the game. When a light attack cannot complete before a heavy attack, which the PK gap closer is, then there is an issue.

secrecy274
03-17-2017, 09:54 PM
Yeah, lets add true realism to the game. All bladed contact bleeds, and you can bleed out.
Limb dismemberment
Daggers do **** to plate
Archery and kunai do **** to plate
Danes axe and kanabo shatter shields
Cant dodge more than 1 or 2 feet and can get tired
Everything related to stamina
If you are holding a firebomb and get hit, self immolation
Catapults miss
Spawning

Minion damage X100

Well, everything except this, most shields would more than likely survive a hit from either of these weapons, however I'm not so sure about the arm underneath.
However, yeah, very few of the weapons in the game would successfully pierce armor, Samurais are pretty screwed in this regard.

EDIT: Actually, if you look at realism, I think the Lawbringer would be the most successful and dangerous warrior available.

solho
03-17-2017, 09:56 PM
Yeah, lets add true realism to the game. All bladed contact bleeds, and you can bleed out.
Limb dismemberment
Daggers do **** to plate
Archery and kunai do **** to plate
Danes axe and kanabo shatter shields
Cant dodge more than 1 or 2 feet and can get tired
Everything related to stamina
If you are holding a firebomb and get hit, self immolation
Catapults miss
Spawning

Minion damage X100

And with two seconds of caresses revive you full life

truecoins
03-17-2017, 11:01 PM
Anyone who thinks guard speed is fine clearly are low level players and this is the first game they feel like they are any good at. Probably taunt after killing a team rep 0 with their 108 gear revenge build with full attack and tell people it's fine just gotta be "smart"

Guard speed being the same or within the same by a frame or two would only benefit the the better player with better reaction. It's because you don't want to learn the expanded toolset this game gives you outside light attack spam on heavy characters. Simple as that.

MambosMango
03-17-2017, 11:24 PM
you cant even switch your guard direction without risk of getting hit by a fast light or zone attack.
the switch delay adds a reaction lag and this has nothing to do with skill. they limit the playable hero pool to 8 characters or did you ever saw a nobushi, raider, lawbringer or shugoki winning a tournament? not even close.

Turric4n666
03-18-2017, 01:37 AM
you cant even switch your guard direction without risk of getting hit by a fast light or zone attack.
the switch delay adds a reaction lag and this has nothing to do with skill. they limit the playable hero pool to 8 characters or did you ever saw a nobushi, raider, lawbringer or shugoki winning a tournament? not even close.

the first battlefy was won by nobushi.

Delectable_Sin
03-18-2017, 04:03 AM
All defensive maneuvers should be universal IMO. The differences should be in the ways the characters attack, but block speed, dodge speed, and dodge distance should be the same on all characters. This way, you can be positive that your reflexes are what is the determining factor in a game, and not the guard speed of your character.

Altair_Snake
03-18-2017, 12:30 PM
In fight games the block speed is usually (if not always) standardized. Dodges may vary, but usually not as much as in For Honor. I'm kind of OK with the big variation in dodges, but I think guard speed should be standardized.

Turric4n666
03-18-2017, 12:31 PM
All defensive maneuvers should be universal IMO. The differences should be in the ways the characters attack, but block speed, dodge speed, and dodge distance should be the same on all characters. This way, you can be positive that your reflexes are what is the determining factor in a game, and not the guard speed of your character.

that is a good argument, but as i said this would also increase their feint potential, making their offensive attack better.
Also i think that everyone should rather have the slow speed because defense in this game is to good anyway.