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View Full Version : Raider hyper Armor Please Ubi



KingTheokoles
03-10-2017, 11:38 PM
Raider is one of the larger/stronger champions in the game, and yet he has no hyper armor on heavy attacks? Warlord is comparable in size and only swinging a sword instead of a giant Dane axe and he gets hyper armor on every heavy swing.

Berserker gets hyper armor on a top light and a top heavy while dashing, and Shugoki gets it every 3 seconds as a passive.

I'm not a Raider main, however I think that maybe he should get hyper armor on his heavy attacks, it's sad to see a good raider be countered by anyone that knows how to parry.

I mean COME ON, you think a light jab from a 80lb dagger weilding PK is gonna be able to stop a raider heavy heavy attack of a 60lb Axe coming down on top of them.

Anyone else think this would be a good buff to raider? Or not enough?

Lyskir
03-11-2017, 12:07 AM
100% aggree he needs at least something to be viable :<

Steelsoldier555
03-11-2017, 12:32 AM
I don't know about you but I MAIN Warden and I can tell you he does NOT have hyper armor on heavy swings. You can interrupt Warden, you have to be faster though. Play a assassin character and you'll see. I cannot tell you the amount of time ive gone for a heavy kill blow and kept getting interrupted by being stabbed or smacked by my opponent.

Rahnzan
03-11-2017, 01:01 AM
80lb peacekeeper? 60lb axe? Try 190 and 8 bro. Thats a muscular woman as tall as a normal man wearing 60lbs of weapons and armor, and that axe isn't a car engine.

secrecy274
03-11-2017, 01:26 AM
80lb=36kg... That's inhumanly small, especially for someone of her size. She's by far not the biggest hero, however she's easily the size of the normal soldiers, which seems to be normal humans, so she easily over 154lb=70kg. And tbh, no matter how big and muscular you're, if you get a cold piece of steel through your shoulder, you will feel it.

Realistically, a Dane Axe weighted between 1kg=2lb to 2kg=4lb, however the one wielded by the Raider is probably a bit larger.

That the overly fat (and muscular, I assume) Shugoki gets this "hyper" armor is the biggest BS in the entire game, fat doesn't protect a damn against cutting weapons. If anything, aesthetically, (not talking balance wise) the "hyper" passive should be on the Lawbringer, he's one of the tallest and widest character in the game, and HE'S IN FULL PLATE! Nothing, absolutely nothing the other "heroes" wear even comes close to that kind of protection. In fact, few of their weapons would even be able to put a dent in that armor.

Rahnzan
03-11-2017, 01:37 AM
Actually gladiators would put on a couple dozen extra pounds specifically because fat did have an effect. Most cutting wounds are shallow, the extra layers would slow down blades, prevent organs from getting raked or pierced and because they don't contain nerves the wounds would even hurt less. I can imagine the extra calories also helped the healing process. That 9 foot tall 600lb Shugoki probably has 2 feet of stomach fat before you reach something important, and all of that blubber would act as a shock absorber on non-penetrating hits to the armor.

Rahnzan
03-11-2017, 01:42 AM
Sorry for the double-post but editing seems to delete my posts, but think about the last time you had to cut through fat on a raw steak. Now imagine instead of using a sharp serrated knife on fat a quarter of an inch thick laid down on a stable cutting platform, you're smacking into a few feet of it with a blade you've dulled over bone, metal and wood for the last 3 minutes and that fat is standing on 8 hinges all actively trying to minimize a strike.

secrecy274
03-11-2017, 01:47 AM
Sorry for the double-post but editing seems to delete my posts, but think about the last time you had to cut through fat on a raw steak. Now imagine instead of using a sharp serrated knife on fat a quarter of an inch thick laid down on a stable cutting platform, you're smacking into a few feet of it with a blade you've dulled over bone, metal and wood for the last 3 minutes and that fat is standing on 8 hinges all actively trying to minimize a strike.

"Grossschmidt’s assertion that gladiators purposely “packed on the pounds” with a carb-heavy diet poses several problems. For one thing, it ignores the devastating nature of ancient edged weapons. While a layer of subcutaneous fat can indeed give some amount of protection from the cuts of smaller knives, it is of no use against the types of weapons that gladiators typically had to cope with."
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"The gladius was a devastating weapon, capable of horrible, mortal wounds with both its point and edge."
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"archeologist Nicholas Sekunda noted that the ancient author Livy commented on how the Macedonians feared the cutting capacity of the gladius Hispaniensis–it was easily capable of shearing off limbs, or decapitating a foe."
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"Against such weapons, subcutaneous bodyfat would have served no genuinely beneficial purpose."

Link to full text: https://outofthiscentury.wordpress.com/2010/01/30/fat-gladiators-modern-misconceptions-regarding-the-dietary-practices-of-swordsmen-of-the-ancient-roman-arena/

So against a small knife, yeah, bodyfat can protect a bit, however against anything heavier it's completely worthless.
Granted, I do assume the medieval grade weapons would be superior if at not least equal to ancient roman ones. I'm not a weapon expert, so I might be wrong.

KingTheokoles
03-11-2017, 02:05 AM
80lb=36kg... That's inhumanly small, especially for someone of her size. She's by far not the biggest hero, however she's easily the size of the normal soldiers, which seems to be normal humans, so she easily over 154lb=70kg. And tbh, no matter how big and muscular you're, if you get a cold piece of steel through your shoulder, you will feel it.

Realistically, a Dane Axe weighted between 1kg=2lb to 2kg=4lb, however the one wielded by the Raider is probably a bit larger.

That the overly fat (and muscular, I assume) Shugoki gets this "hyper" armor is the biggest BS in the entire game, fat doesn't protect a damn against cutting weapons. If anything, aesthetically, (not talking balance wise) the "hyper" passive should be on the Lawbringer, he's one of the tallest and widest character in the game, and HE'S IN FULL PLATE! Nothing, absolutely nothing the other "heroes" wear even comes close to that kind of protection. In fact, few of their weapons would even be able to put a dent in that armor.

Uhhhh if you think that axe weighs 4lbs you're insane, I'm just gonna leave this here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV3FIUrSk

Kharneth88
03-11-2017, 02:41 AM
Raider is one of the larger/stronger champions in the game, and yet he has no hyper armor on heavy attacks? Warlord is comparable in size and only swinging a sword instead of a giant Dane axe and he gets hyper armor on every heavy swing.

Berserker gets hyper armor on a top light and a top heavy while dashing, and Shugoki gets it every 3 seconds as a passive.

I'm not a Raider main, however I think that maybe he should get hyper armor on his heavy attacks, it's sad to see a good raider be countered by anyone that knows how to parry.

I mean COME ON, you think a light jab from a 80lb dagger weilding PK is gonna be able to stop a raider heavy heavy attack of a 60lb Axe coming down on top of them.

Anyone else think this would be a good buff to raider? Or not enough?

Axe is only about 4-6lbs, maybe 8lbs cuz the head is way thicker than in real life. But, yes, without any armor a small little dagger poke will stagger the **** out of anyone.

Kharneth88
03-11-2017, 02:51 AM
Uhhhh if you think that axe weighs 4lbs you're insane, I'm just gonna leave this here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV3FIUrSk

Lol. Well, the axe they make is horribly imbalanced. These are smiths who don't make weapons making a weapon that is already thicker than it is suppose to be.

KingTheokoles
03-11-2017, 02:51 AM
Axe is only about 4-6lbs, maybe 8lbs cuz the head is way thicker than in real life. But, yes, without any armor a small little dagger poke will stagger the **** out of anyone.

well if it doesnt stagger the warlord whi is the same size it shouldnt stagger the Raider is all im saying

secrecy274
03-11-2017, 02:52 AM
Uhhhh if you think that axe weighs 4lbs you're insane, I'm just gonna leave this here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WBV3FIUrSk

Well, I said "Realistically, a Dane Axe weighted between 1kg=2lb to 2kg=4lb, however the one wielded by the Raider is probably a bit larger."
Even so, that axe is nowhere close to have a weight of 60lb.

Wateverdude
03-11-2017, 03:55 AM
Raider needs some small tweak, it not that he is unplayable right now

- His wave clear is a joke, you can only deal AOE dmg with running attack or a zone. I mean look at Warden, he kill ****load minions with only heavies
- Running stampede have weird tracking and inconsistent to use. Look at warlord,shugoki,conqueror, their running tackle have great tracking and can be pull of even in 1v1.

I have no problem vs other people 1v1 except PKs. I lost because their outplayed me, (except Pks, again) Raider move set is small but it still decent. A small tweak to his moveset and statwould be ok tho, but hyperarmor may be overpowered.

Kharneth88
03-11-2017, 04:28 AM
well if it doesnt stagger the warlord whi is the same size it shouldnt stagger the Raider is all im saying

Warlord is wearing actual armor, though. A dagger could likely be thrust through it, and yeah, you're right. But the Raider is literally wearing nothing on his chest. A soft slash would hurt like hell.

Jobsalot
03-11-2017, 05:14 AM
Warlord is wearing actual armor, though. A dagger could likely be thrust through it, and yeah, you're right. But the Raider is literally wearing nothing on his chest. A soft slash would hurt like hell.

That's true but given the sheer bulk of the warrior, I agree with those calling for hyper armor or some sort for the Raider. It's mostly about being interrupted with the staggering issue. The warlord mostly wears thick leathers anyway, it's not like he is running around in full plate. In fact, any blade swung heavily with the intent to kill would likely go through it.

It only really protects from superficial cuts which cause a lot of bleeding and hurt but whether you are interrupted in your charge or swing is essentially a matter of forces meeting. The Raider is a hulking mountain of muscle. Basically any swing he or she does has a large wind-up and the animation suggests there is huge force behind it. You don't just stop that force dead in its tracks with some light attacks. At least you shouldn't be able to.

KingTheokoles
03-11-2017, 05:40 AM
Warlord is wearing actual armor, though. A dagger could likely be thrust through it, and yeah, you're right. But the Raider is literally wearing nothing on his chest. A soft slash would hurt like hell.

Okay, what about the berserker? the guy has a silk 70's porn shirt on with his chest hair out, and he gets hyper armor on a dash overhead light and heavy....

Kharneth88
03-11-2017, 05:55 AM
That's true but given the sheer bulk of the warrior, I agree with those calling for hyper armor or some sort for the Raider. It's mostly about being interrupted with the staggering issue. The warlord mostly wears thick leathers anyway, it's not like he is running around in full plate. In fact, any blade swung heavily with the intent to kill would likely go through it.

It only really protects from superficial cuts which cause a lot of bleeding and hurt but whether you are interrupted in your charge or swing is essentially a matter of forces meeting. The Raider is a hulking mountain of muscle. Basically any swing he or she does has a large wind-up and the animation suggests there is huge force behind it. You don't just stop that force dead in its tracks with some light attacks. At least you shouldn't be able to.

That's not true. Padded cloth armor and leather armor actually is very adequate protection against most light slashing attacks. The peacekeeper's attacks would be mostly harmless and she would need to do more thrusts. Even attacks from a longsword don't cut through leather with ease, he'd need to put great force into the strikes and rely more on thrusting.

Also, staggering a foe has nothing to do with countering force. Staggering has to do with causing bodily harm that makes the foe flinch and stop their attack. Being struck by a sword in your flesh while swinging a mighty blow will stop you dead in your tracks.

KingTheokoles
03-11-2017, 09:44 AM
That's not true. Padded cloth armor and leather armor actually is very adequate protection against most light slashing attacks. The peacekeeper's attacks would be mostly harmless and she would need to do more thrusts. Even attacks from a longsword don't cut through leather with ease, he'd need to put great force into the strikes and rely more on thrusting.

Also, staggering a foe has nothing to do with countering force. Staggering has to do with causing bodily harm that makes the foe flinch and stop their attack. Being struck by a sword in your flesh while swinging a mighty blow will stop you dead in your tracks.

this is a smart man

Jobsalot
03-11-2017, 10:06 AM
That's not true. Padded cloth armor and leather armor actually is very adequate protection against most light slashing attacks. The peacekeeper's attacks would be mostly harmless and she would need to do more thrusts. Even attacks from a longsword don't cut through leather with ease, he'd need to put great force into the strikes and rely more on thrusting.

Also, staggering a foe has nothing to do with countering force. Staggering has to do with causing bodily harm that makes the foe flinch and stop their attack. Being struck by a sword in your flesh while swinging a mighty blow will stop you dead in your tracks.

Then you didn't read what I was writing. I was not talking about light slashes, I was talking about attacks with the intent to kill you on the spot. Those leathers aren't going to catch a full swing with an axe.

You don't just suddenly flinch back and stagger one and a half foot away from the enemy if he interrupts your full swing with a giant two-handed axe. It just doesn't happen, it's simply physics. You need something of comparable force to stop someone dead in his tracks. Even if you hit back against someone who is full mid-swing of a giant two handed axe, the attack is going to carry through and isn't just aborted. Worst case real-life scenario is that the Raider just launches himself straight into the enemy's sword and impales himself on it by accident while still plunging his axe into the neck of the opponent and they both die as a result and its a nasty, messy and painful death for either.

The game could at least try to somewhat mimick these things. I mean, the warlord takes damage and it doesn't simply bounce off of him. He just takes it, receives a health-penalty but still executes his attack, like with his jump attack for example. Why not the same with the Raider? It just doesn't make sense. The entire cinematic intro to the class made the point that these are battle fanatics who won't stop at anything and know no fear, fully relying on their faith that their end is already pre-determined by the gods. So, why armor? They wouldn't stop unless you meet them with a corresponding force. This should reflect in the game mechanics, plain and simple.

DrExtrem
03-11-2017, 10:17 AM
Keep in mind, that fat tissue heals a lot slower than muscular tissue.

Rahnzan
03-13-2017, 01:22 AM
@secrecy what we think of as the gladiator games was a bloodthirsty celebration that used prisoners in place of athletes, from what I know, every other fight in the arena was more like a sport, with competing celebrities, finishing blows and thrusts were severely looked down upon as they made fights short and boring. And they were still allowed armor which was routinely attacked on purpose.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-13-2017, 02:10 AM
Raider is one of the larger/stronger champions in the game, and yet he has no hyper armor on heavy attacks? Warlord is comparable in size and only swinging a sword instead of a giant Dane axe and he gets hyper armor on every heavy swing.

Berserker gets hyper armor on a top light and a top heavy while dashing, and Shugoki gets it every 3 seconds as a passive.

I'm not a Raider main, however I think that maybe he should get hyper armor on his heavy attacks, it's sad to see a good raider be countered by anyone that knows how to parry.

I mean COME ON, you think a light jab from a 80lb dagger weilding PK is gonna be able to stop a raider heavy heavy attack of a 60lb Axe coming down on top of them.

Anyone else think this would be a good buff to raider? Or not enough?

Well firstly the game doesn't have to 100% emulate real life. I thought that was made clear by all the heroes being huge compared to regular soldiers and killing these trained soldiers with practically 0 resistance. Also I think most of the attack in this game would probably kill you on their own or incapacitate/disable you at the very least but I don't see you arguing about removing the health bar and making everything a one hit kill. It's nice how you use an argument exclusively dependent on what you think is realistic yet cherry pick which parts of the real world to include.

It's more important to have fair gameplay and good mechanics.

Not that what you described was actually realistic anyway. I mean a 60 pound dane axe? LMAO Try researching a bit, no source I've come across yet has the typical dane axe past 4 pounds... Of course raider is bigger than the average adult human and thus has a more massive axe but it's nowhere near by a factor of 10. The assertion that the peace maker is only 80 pounds is also equally laughable but of course the real issue here would be their size relative to the raider's.

Now I'm no expert on swinging 60 pound objects while getting stabbed in a vital organ or really melee combat at all but I doubt the swing will continue to be effective after such an event occurs.

Rahnzan
03-13-2017, 12:31 PM
Raider needs some small tweak, it not that he is unplayable right now

- His wave clear is a joke, you can only deal AOE dmg with running attack or a zone. I mean look at Warden, he kill ****load minions with only heavies
- Running stampede have weird tracking and inconsistent to use. Look at warlord,shugoki,conqueror, their running tackle have great tracking and can be pull of even in 1v1.

I have no problem vs other people 1v1 except PKs. I lost because their outplayed me, (except Pks, again) Raider move set is small but it still decent. A small tweak to his moveset and statwould be ok tho, but hyperarmor may be overpowered.

Shugoki run has zero tracking, it's just really wide.

Valtaya
03-13-2017, 03:31 PM
Raider is one of the larger/stronger champions in the game, and yet he has no hyper armor on heavy attacks? Warlord is comparable in size and only swinging a sword instead of a giant Dane axe and he gets hyper armor on every heavy swing.

Berserker gets hyper armor on a top light and a top heavy while dashing, and Shugoki gets it every 3 seconds as a passive.

I'm not a Raider main, however I think that maybe he should get hyper armor on his heavy attacks, it's sad to see a good raider be countered by anyone that knows how to parry.

I mean COME ON, you think a light jab from a 80lb dagger weilding PK is gonna be able to stop a raider heavy heavy attack of a 60lb Axe coming down on top of them.

Anyone else think this would be a good buff to raider? Or not enough?

Why should he have hyper armor on heavy attacks? Because he have a "giant Dane axe" and not a shield? Serious?

Just becaue this whole "hyper armor" mechanic is f* up does not mean, they should give it to everyone.

Well, unless the "counterer" has lag and counters nothing and that heavy swings goe through any block as if having 200% block damage.

Yes, one small stab and it is game over. Just as one hit by this axe (should) mean game over.

What buff, for what. Learn to play? A good raider can counter a good peacekeeper, or whatever else you throw at the raider. The problem is, there are no good raider players at the top tier, just a bunch of peacekeepers etc., maybe because PKs are so easy to play... though, I do not think so. I gues people have to learn... raider is not a realy suitable class for dueling, buff him, and he becomes unstoppable in 4on4 modes (skirmish/dominion).

corazondedelfin
03-13-2017, 03:45 PM
I agree that the RAIDER could get "hyperarmor" during two types of heavy swings (maybe when its left or right for example in the second hit of his favourite screaming combo, for saying an example).

I have no idea about raiders, only how to kill them. So I cant say much, but I support you raiders and thumbs up you all. (im an orochi, not underpowered but close)