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XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:26 AM
Dose any one know the turn time for the Jug? Im not complaining. It's just that it's not mentioned in the in game objects veiwer. I also cant find any thing on the web either.

any help would be aprecaited.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:26 AM
Dose any one know the turn time for the Jug? Im not complaining. It's just that it's not mentioned in the in game objects veiwer. I also cant find any thing on the web either.

any help would be aprecaited.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:31 AM
Hmm, thats a tough one. At speeds above 400kmh/250mph IAS, you can haul back pretty hard and get a tight turn. I'd guess a full 360 in about... Oh, 8 or 10 seconds at least. Trying to turn fight with the Jug is crazy, but its good experience.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-15-2003, 06:32 AM
It's probably similar to a tugboat.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:42 AM
lol buzz, you can find the info here http://www.p47pilots.com

sign up for the forums theres some great clips of p47s engauged with 190s and 109s and the 190s dont turn on a dime and prop stop fish flop snap stall whips http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:02 AM
Thanks guy's. I just went to p47pilots.com and registerd.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:15 AM
According to il2 compare it is about 23sec a t1000m

Buzz_25th
10-15-2003, 07:16 AM
Isn't that for guys who flew the P-47?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

Zayets
10-15-2003, 09:24 AM
Don't remember from where I have these numbers but here it goes:

Corner Velocity Maximum G Turn, first 180 degrees times/360 degrees times:

Plane 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
F6F 5.7s 6.3s 6.8s 7.4s 12.6s 13.8s 15.2s 16.8s
F4F 5.5s 5.5s 5.8s 6.3s 12.1s 12.6s 13.3s 14.6s
FM2 5.7s 5.6s 6.2s 6.9s 12.2s 13.2s 13.9s 15.5s
F4U 6.4s 6.7s 7.3s 7.7s 14.8s 15.8s 18.0s 19.1s
A6M2 4.5s 4.7s 5.1s 5.8s 9.9s 10.2s 11.7s 12.7s
A6M3 4.7s 5.1s 5.1s 5.7s 10.4s 11.6s 12.0s 13.7s
A6M5a 4.8s 5.4s 5.4s 5.9s 11.2s 11.9s 13.1s 14.5s
Ki43 4.5s 4.8s 5.2s 5.8s 9.7s 10.3s 11.5s 12.9s
Ki84 5.8s 6.0s 6.9s 7.7s 13.1s 14.1s 15.9s 17.8s
Bf 109E4 6.0s 6.4s 6.7s 7.1s 13.8s 15.4s 15.8s 17.8s
Bf 109F4 6.4s 6.6s 7.4s 7.6s 14.4s 15.5s 17.2s 18.6s
Bf 109G6 6.8s 7.2s 7.7s 8.6s 16.0s 17.4s 18.4s 21.8s
Bf 109G6R6 7.5s 8.5s 9.2s 9.5s 18.0s 19.3s 22.0s 23.0s
Bf 109K4 7.3s 8.0s 9.0s 9.3s 17.1s 18.9s 21.1s 22.7s
Bf 110C4 5.7s 6.0s 6.8s 7.6s 12.3s 13.4s 15.1s 16.8s
Bf 110G2R3 6.2s 6.7s 7.4s 8.2s 13.8s 15.6s 17.1s 18.8s
Fw190A4 7.8s 8.2s 9.5s 9.7s 17.3s 18.1s 20.7s 22.3s
Fw190A8 8.2s 8.6s 9.2s 10.5s 18.3s 19.7s 22.1s 24.3s
Fw190D9 8.1s 9.2s 10.1s 10.5s 18.2s 20.3s 22.6s 24.1s
SpitIa 5.0s 5.3s 6.0s 6.8s 11.3s 11.8s 13.2s 15.2s
SpitV 6.0s 6.2s 6.6s 7.1s 13.1s 13.6s 14.8s 16.1s
SpitIX 6.2s 6.6s 7.2s 8.0s 13.8s 14.6s 16.2s 18.1s
HurriI 4.8s 5.3s 6.2s 6.4s 10.8s 12.1s 13.3s 14.1s
HurriIIc 5.5s 5.9s 6.7s 7.4s 12.1s 13.3s 14.8s 16.4s
P38F 5.6s 6.1s 6.3s 6.9s 12.0s 13.3s 14.3s 15.9s
P38J 6.0s 6.3s 7.0s 7.6s 12.7s 13.4s 14.8s 16.9s
P38L 6.0s 6.6s 7.3s 7.5s 13.1s 13.9s 15.2s 16.9s
P39D 6.1s 6.3s 7.2s 7.9s 13.5s 13.7s 16.0s 17.0s
P40E 5.9s 6.3s 6.5s 7.1s 12.8s 13.6s 14.3s 16.1s
P47D 7.6s 7.7s 8.6s 8.9s 16.7s 17.1s 19.3s 21.8s
P51D 6.6s 7.3s 8.0s 9.0s 15.0s 16.2s 17.6s 19.9s
D3A2 4.6s 4.7s 5.5s 5.5s 10.1s 11.0s 12.4s 13.1s
B5N2 4.8s 5.2s 5.7s 6.1s 9.7s 10.3s 11.4s 12.4s
SBD-5 5.8s 6.1s 6.4s 7.4s 13.3s 14.2s 15.6s 17.9s
Ju88A4 7.3s 7.9s 8.2s 8.5s 16.6s 18.0s 19.8s 21.4s
B25H 8.2s 8.4s 9.1s 9.4s 18.9s 19.3s 20.9s 23.7s
B25J 7.1s 7.3s 8.0s 8.3s 16.8s 17.1s 19.0s 20.3s
B17G 9.0s 8.3s 8.8s 8.9s 18.4s 17.9s 19.4s 20.2s
TBF 6.0s 6.9s 7.4s 7.9s 14.1s 16.6s 18.3s 20.9s

So , for the Jug it says 360 degree turn is made in:
16.7s at 1000ft
17.1s at 5000
19.3s at 10000
21.8 at 15000

NOTE : I don't know who did these calculations and if they are 100% precise, but I believe is good for comparisson. Is for that I've kept this txt document.


Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 04:15 PM
Um, Zayets are you shure about this?

We need to find out. I just looked over the numbers and im speechles. I would realy like to beleave these numbers are correct. I realy would.

Zayets
10-15-2003, 04:45 PM
Tiger!
Don't take it as 100% precise,because I don't remember from where I took them.If you will only look on my download directory you will understand. This file I post here has name "turnWW2.txt" and I remember that I copy/paste it from somewhere. I didn't kept the link , sorry. I have to do some order in my stuffs,that's for sure!

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 04:48 PM
Maple_Tiger wrote:
- Dose any one know the turn time for the Jug? Im not
- complaining. It's just that it's not mentioned in
- the in game objects veiwer. I also cant find any
- thing on the web either.
-
- any help would be aprecaited.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


When some1 gives u some numbers on this subject
count in these critical factors:

- weight
- speed
- altitude
- temperature ( affects air dencity and lift )
- drag (extra if u have ordonance )

Add to it that most data refers to factory new ac with everything optimal and to that add also that nubers apply only for a limited time.


couldnt resist /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

... and som sugestions:

1. the hardest sustained turn at lowest possible speed =
sometimes refered to as "corner airspeed" (the speed depends on the above parameters, in FB mosty weight)



2. hardest possible turn = maximum turn. = purpose of this turn is to bleed as much energy as fast as possible and make one single sharp turn ( best possible) to get the deflection on the enemy and shoot him down. mostly results in a high angle shot at the bandit (90 degrees )

afterwards u better have hit the enemy bcause your speed is gone.

gl

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 05:25 PM
yeah well Im complaining, why not

I have been creating and testing serveral P-47 missions offline. Since they cant hang well against most fighters I do ground missions with 110 and 210 intercepts. I am amazed every time to see a 110 able to turn with the P-47s.

Come on, that cant be for real. Everything I read was that the P-47 toasted the 110s, outturned, climbed, dived, etc.

not in FB of course /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://www.blitzpigs.com/john/BP-johann-9-4-03.gif <center>

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:21 PM
johann63 wrote:
- yeah well Im complaining, why not
-
- I have been creating and testing serveral P-47
- missions offline. Since they cant hang well against
- most fighters I do ground missions with 110 and 210
- intercepts. I am amazed every time to see a 110 able
- to turn with the P-47s.
-
- Come on, that cant be for real. Everything I read
- was that the P-47 toasted the 110s, outturned,
- climbed, dived, etc.


Yes, this is correct. At low and medium altitudes, Bf-110G in a fighter config will outclimb, outturn and outaccelerate P-47. It will also outdive P-47 at low speeds, but because the Clmax is high on Bf-110 it has a pretty low Mach number, so P-47 will reach him quite fast if the dive is longer than it should. Bf-110 suffers from the same problem with P-38 or USN fighters, they have thick airfoils that do not offer good dive performance.

The only big disadvantage Bf-110 had was the max speed 50km/h below what a competitive fighter should have had in '43. In '44 this gap was even bigger, 100km/h. Also after BoB Bf-110 was not piloted by fighter pilots, only Zerstorer and bomber pilots, with totaly different objectives and skills. This is why Bf-110 cought in daylight with no fighter cover had hard time dealing with fighters.

They remained popular among bomber pilots though, because as a bomber Bf-110 was very difficult to intercept or hit by flak, due to speed, small size and maneuvrability.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 10/15/0312:43PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:29 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Yes, this is correct. At low and medium altitudes,
- Bf-110G in a fighter config will outclimb, outturn
- and outaccelerate P-47.


Please define "low and medium altitudes .....



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:33 PM
lol, i dont know what to beleave. im very new with sims and planes.

Look at it this way though. If you where the head of the team that created the P-47 back in ww2, knowing you needing a high altitude long rang escort fighter, would you desine it to just Boom and Zoom?



Message Edited on 10/15/0305:35PM by Maple_Tiger

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:52 PM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- Yes, this is correct. At low and medium altitudes,
-- Bf-110G in a fighter config will outclimb, outturn
-- and outaccelerate P-47.
-
-
- Please define "low and medium altitudes .....


Low alts are below 4000m, medium below 8000m, high up to 12000m. For early war 2000-3000m can be considered low alts, and medium up to 6000m.


DB605A (fitted on Bf-110G) critical altitude was at aprox 6000m.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:55 PM
It's missing in view objects list cause turn time has no meaning to P-47 like other heavies /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Maple_Tiger wrote:
- Dose any one know the turn time for the Jug? Im not
- complaining. It's just that it's not mentioned in
- the in game objects veiwer. I also cant find any
- thing on the web either.
-


=======================================
<font size = 1>
Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M, GeForce4ti4200,
MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

=815=Squadron in South Korea
http://cafe.daum.net/il2sturmovik
</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:23 PM
TooCooL34 wrote:
- It's missing in view objects list cause turn time
- has no meaning to P-47 like other heavies /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-

Damn right man. I didn't even know what these guys are talking here, see?

But seriously, I remember an occasion I turned the Jug. It was against Death. He was in a 190D-9, and we were pretty much on the deck (approx 10 meters). Had one of us stalled out, or low-yoyo'ed, he'd bought the farm. He was right on the opposite side of the circle (so, it was a same direction turnfight, the classic), and we kept going at it for almost a minute. Neither would gain angles. Death got bored and went out. Of course I wouldn't catch him as he turned out on the opposite, not his FW in my Jug anyway. So, had some time to consider what had just been going on. I thought:"Hum, that seemed pretty much equal." Then Death came on the radio and said "Hum, that seemed pretty much equal."
Note however that iirc I took the Jug out with just 25% on that trip, cause the base was vulched. And it was back in FB 1.0, or whatever. Anyway, before the recent version. I wouldn't know how it's now, but seems like the Jug hasn't changed much in turning.

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-



Message Edited on 10/15/0306:28PM by Heart_C

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:38 PM
Heart_C wrote:
- TooCooL34 wrote:
-- It's missing in view objects list cause turn time
-- has no meaning to P-47 like other heavies /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
--
-
- Damn right man. I didn't even know what these guys
- are talking here, see?
-
- But seriously, I remember an occasion I turned the
- Jug. It was against Death. He was in a 190D-9, and
- we were pretty much on the deck (approx 10 meters).
- Had one of us stalled out, or low-yoyo'ed, he'd
- bought the farm. He was right on the opposite side
- of the circle (so, it was a same direction
- turnfight, the classic), and we kept going at it for
- almost a minute. Neither would gain angles. Death
- got bored and went out. Of course I wouldn't catch
- him as he turned out on the opposite, not his FW in
- my Jug anyway. So, had some time to consider what
- had just been going on. I thought:"Hum, that seemed
- pretty much equal." Then Death came on the radio and
- said "Hum, that seemed pretty much equal."
- Note however that iirc I took the Jug out with just
- 25% on that trip, cause the base was vulched. And it
- was back in FB 1.0, or whatever. Anyway, before the
- recent version. I wouldn't know how it's now, but
- seems like the Jug hasn't changed much in turning.


This shows how overmodelled Jugs are in turn performance. Jugs were the slowest turning fighter by far. Turn time for D9 should be 22s (full internal fuel), and it is in the game. The Jug should turn in 26sec for D10 and D22 and more for D22.

Jugs are overmodelled in almost everything. Initial climb rate is 4000fpm which was never achieved even by the "never working right" M model.





<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:53 PM
That's because everybody asked P-47 but no one actually flew it after release. (instead they came here and complained.) It's some kind of balancing. Relax Huckebein.

Plz don't pop up with roll late on this post. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


=======================================
<font size = 1>
Athlon XP 3200+, FIC AU13 MOBO, DDR 1024M, GeForce4ti4200,
MCP-T SoundStorm, Barracuda IV 7200rpm 60G HDD,
Yes,I got TrackIR/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif , Two M$ SW Pr2(weird but good HOTAS.Bill,let sticks be made!)

=815=Squadron in South Korea
http://cafe.daum.net/il2sturmovik
</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:55 PM
Umm,

Huckebein and TooCooL34 i did not creat this post for people to complain.

Im looking for actual real flight data on the turn time for the P-47D27, D10 and D22.

If you have any real data that can help then great, other wize please keep your comments to your self.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 07:56 PM
Fb110s (C versions) could turn very tight, but their lack of roll killed them in BoB. Surprised me too when I learned about that. Like I said earlier with the pre~Patch P~47, fly P~47 always with a little flap to get an idea of what the Fb110 will be like visually (canopy) and FM come January.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 08:16 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
- This shows how overmodelled Jugs are in turn
- performance. Jugs were the slowest turning fighter
- by far. Turn time for D9 should be 22s (full
- internal fuel), and it is in the game. The Jug
- should turn in 26sec for D10 and D22 and more for
- D22.

Well, after all, maybe I'm overmodelled, we don't know. And keep in mind what I wrote, I took it up with just 25% fuel. Usually I don't take more than 50% ever with me in the Jug.


- Jugs are overmodelled in almost everything. Initial
- climb rate is 4000fpm which was never achieved even
- by the "never working right" M model.
-

Easy there. The D-27 still has a rollrate close to that of my grandma. Dispersion screws some of the fun, too. Probably you'd call that correct though.


=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:05 PM
Huckebein,

You raise an interesting point over which I will risk a another discussion. Hopefully this one will .....

Are you really sure that a "Bf-110G in a fighter config will outclimb, outturn, and outaccelerate P-47" up to 8000 meters altitude"? This doesn't makes sense at first glance for an aircraft with a purported service ceiling of only 26,000 odd feet (+/- 8000 meters) and a maximum speed of 340-350 mph at 22,900 ft (7,000 meters) - figures courtesy of a quick Google check. If service ceiling is an indicator of the realistic limit to specific excess power, it seems that the 110G has run out of breath by 8,000 meters.

I can see possible merit in your argument in superior turn and acceleration performance at low altitude. But I'm not convinced regarding climb rates. The time-to-climb figures shown on the web for the 110G are 8 minutes to 18,000 ft (5500 meters), which is an average of only about 2250 fpm


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:46 PM
Cheers

Read "Thunderbolt" by Robert S. Johnson

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 11:00 PM
FlockZa wrote:
- Cheers
-
- Read "Thunderbolt" by Robert S. Johnson

I think i might, i live 45 min from the city, but next im in Fredericton ill take a look for it.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 11:06 PM
Blutarski, up to 5000m my affirmation is prudent enough. At higher altitudes up to 7000m those performance parameters are close.

Also initial climb rate for 110C was 15m/s at climb and combat setting (2x1050hp). This is already max for most P-47D variants. 110G had 2*1475hp, 40% more power for only 5% weight increase. You can imagine the difference in climb rate. It also had aprox 600km/h max speed at 7000m. That's quite good for a bomber/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Max ceiling and speeds you are quoting are for 110C, a 1940 model Blutarski. Pay attention to the types we are talking about.

Those who imagine Bf110 a helpless dog will have a surprise when it will become flyable. Of course, with a proper DM, not the "1 shot from 1km -> engine fire" like we have now.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 10/15/0305:59PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 11:28 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Max ceiling and speeds you are quoting are for 110C,
- a 1940 model Blutarski. Pay attention to the types
- we are talking about.


In fact I did check for the model type to be 110G series. Perhaps the several websites are wrong in their figures and/or simply quoting each other.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 11:44 PM
Maple_Tiger wrote:
- Umm,
-
- Huckebein and TooCooL34 i did not creat this post
- for people to complain.
-
- Im looking for actual real flight data on the turn
- time for the P-47D27, D10 and D22.
-
- If you have any real data that can help then great,
- other wize please keep your comments to your self.
-
-


sorry for may own complaining, I just love the jug but cant fly it too well. All I know is one of the blitzpigs that flys the jug, BlitzPig_DDT, regularly prefers the D10, he say historically and in FB it turned better than D22 and D27.

If you see him, pose the question to him, he may have hard data.



<center>http://www.blitzpigs.com/john/BP-johann-9-4-03.gif <center>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 04:56 AM
johann63 wrote:
-
- Maple_Tiger wrote:
-- Umm,
--
-- Huckebein and TooCooL34 i did not creat this post
-- for people to complain.
--
-- Im looking for actual real flight data on the turn
-- time for the P-47D27, D10 and D22.
--
-- If you have any real data that can help then great,
-- other wize please keep your comments to your self.
--
--
-
-
- sorry for may own complaining, I just love the jug
- but cant fly it too well. All I know is one of the
- blitzpigs that flys the jug, BlitzPig_DDT, regularly
- prefers the D10, he say historically and in FB it
- turned better than D22 and D27.
-
- If you see him, pose the question to him, he may
- have hard data.


No proublom johann63, we are all not perfect, right. I know im not, im far from from it lol.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 06:56 AM
johann63 wrote:
- sorry for may own complaining, I just love the jug
- but cant fly it too well. All I know is one of the
- blitzpigs that flys the jug, BlitzPig_DDT, regularly
- prefers the D10, he say historically and in FB it
- turned better than D22 and D27.
-
- If you see him, pose the question to him, he may
- have hard data.

The D-10 is the overall best performer, but the worst visibility. For the fighter it is, I think the D-27 is better for the task. Regardless of what DDT will tell you, the D-27 dives better and makes deflection shots much easier.

New P-47 jocks should stick with the D-10 and move up to the D-27 if they want to. But the P-47 is a bird that requires you to fly it non-stop, 24/7.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Zayets
10-16-2003, 07:17 AM
johann63 wrote:
I just love the jug
- but cant fly it too well.

Get a mate if you fly the Jug. Your whole Jug life will change. If none of you are gready on the prey you will score even against the FW's. As team I mean. Jug is good as a bait. One is oon the deck , the other one 1000 ft above. That was the tactic back then. Work on tactics not in flying your plane because it flies pretty much by itself.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG