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Archo-Vax
03-09-2017, 01:58 AM
I see people constantly ridiculing others when they pontificate about honorable conduct. Now, there are two types of "honorable players" in my experience. The type that only use honor as an excuse when it suits them (I.E: crying about being thrown over a ledge), and the type who are actually quite serious and whom don't make excuses for themselves.

The former can go fu`ck itself- the latter is, in my opinion, is rather admirable.

Allow me to explain.

In most mature, and clear-headed circles, throwing someone off a ledge is not dishonorable. THAT IS a matter of skill.
However: ganking someone is NOT honorable.

Allow me to explain the logic behind this.

For example, in a 2v2 match, both players in each team are set in front of a single opponent. In the mind of an honorable player, it only follows that you would FACE said opponent, and focus on beating them. However, those who can't be bothered to think about Honor will gleefully sprint across the map in order to gank a single enemy with the help of their teammate.
The reason why people with honor see this as "dishonorable" is because they (and I) believe that doing so is a silent admittance of one's own lack of confidence. If your first instinct is to team up on someone, rather than simply fight one person, and THEN fight the next (should your teammate fall), it only makes sense in the eyes of an honorable player than ganking must be an indication of the Ganker's own cowardice, laziness, and lack of confidence in their ability to fight 1v1.
It's an admittance of fear and of general sliminess.
You may be asking "why play Brawl, then?". Because, the addition of a teammate and another enemy adds to the TENSION. You see, honorable players are the kinds of players who enjoy the thrill of a good fight, and the suspense of a nail-bitingly unpredictable punch-up. In Brawl, if you fight your opponent, beat them, and find that your teammate failed, it adds to the thrill of moment- your health is already reduced, and it pushes you to fight all the harder.

Ganking, however, offers no such excitement. It makes the outcome UTTERLY predictable.

Now, onto why honorable players themselves refuse to gank other people...

Ganking makes honorable players (REAL honorable players) feel guilty. It leaves a bad taste in their mouth, and they simply can't take themselves seriously by doing it. When an honorable player ganks, they often look at what they are doing and feel absolutely NO satisfaction. There's no THRILL or CATHARSIS to be had in unfairly wrecking the absolute shi`te out of someone. You see, an honorable player, is the kind of player who simply doesn't like "winning" a match, if that victory came through means that were less than impressive. Ganking someone is not impressive. Ganking someone is not something you can have pride in- not for those with honor, at least.

The "win" at the end of the game, isn't the highlight of the game for them. Simply HANDING on honorable player a victory through ganking gives them NO satisfaction and no joy. It makes them become overwhelmingly aware of the fact that they DID NOT win the game by their own merits. It feels like you're about to start race, but then the umpire just walks up to you before even firing the starting pistol, gives you the trophy, and says "good job".

To an honorable player, ganking is a sign of a lack of skill and a lack of integrity. A lack of a will to improve. A lack of confidence. Simply winning for the sake of winning IS NOT why they spent 60 dollars on the game. It's the same kind of logic used by fighting-game players- they constantly improve themselves, and seek improvement.

Ganking offers no room FOR improvement. What it does is give you a crutch. And it is a crutch that most honorable players simply refuse to take, because they want to prove that their leg ISN'T broken. They want to prove that they are NOT crippled, and that they don't NEED help.

Of course, you might be convinced to think that getting ganked would make things more exciting for them. It doesn't. Getting ganked is NEVER fun. It gives honorable players the impression that the people who are ganking them have no skill, and it makes them feel as though they've been denied a decent fight.
And, again, you may think that Duels are where most honorable players find their homes. Well, Duels get very boring, very quickly. Dominion is fun as fu`ck, man. As is Elimination.

You might read this and say that honorable players just want something to brag about. That they're egotists, and that they shouldn't play multiplayer if they want to be masochistic Dark-Souls-nuts.
That may be true...

But you can be damn sure that they aren't going to do that.

AKDagriZ
03-09-2017, 02:28 AM
i had figure it out . but that was well explained. Whats wrong with certain player is not being able to tolerate those who don't mind being ganked and they really like to party up and work as bi-number to fight or defend especially in dominion.You know in the infantry all squad in a platoon are grouped in pair .they will never be alone on the battlefield.

In my case if i join a brawl and the 3 other player are showing me they are not going to play this way i will either quit or abide by their rules.What i am sincerely asking to all fellow honorable player is if you find yourself in a match where everyone is figthing ''honorably'' take it.But , If you join a session where the other guys are not following any rule set by others player , take it as well and stop saying ''no honor'' everytime you die.These guys might be the one who ask their teammate to give the last guy on the breaking team a chance to die honorably by letting him having duel with the rest of the winning team . 3v1 is ganking , 2v1 is something else and can be done in a civilized way, relatively easy to overturn when your are experienced getting outnumbered.Again , in my case most of the time i will step out of a 3v1 because its just stupid and make me feel stupid and i think at prestige 10 I should know better than that.But i have no shame in going 2v1 in any mod as i dont fear it at all if it happen to me.

I really hate being call a coward if i go 2 v1 when i actually never run away from a 1v2

Gray360UK
03-09-2017, 02:38 AM
I feel it's stating the obvious to say that no one has a problem with 'honourable' players until they start making demands on others, try to impose their imaginary ruleset on others, send hate mail to others because they are not following said imaginary ruleset, and so on.

I have never had a problem with anyone doing whatever they want to do in For Honor. Plenty of people have had a problem with me doing what I want to do.

Sirrkas
03-09-2017, 11:36 AM
I have to disagree. Ganking provides room for improvement and even for both sides.

The ganked player can learn how to defend from multiple opponents and the attackers can practice, how not to hit each other all the time. I had plenty of dominion matches, where allies seemed to only hit me, while we faced the same opponent together. Later on, he even complained about another ally, only to hit him, what seemed for me, he was lacking a lot of awareness and skill while outnumbering people.

I would prefer if people woulnd't try to force 1vs1 in brawls and then even cry, when they broke their own rules and I gank them. 2vs2 seems for me the perfect place to practice defending against multiple opponents. How am I supposed to survive a 3vs1 or 4vs1 in elimination, if I never had the chance to practise 2vs1 before?

I am allways confused and even slightly worried about the other players, when they start to complain about having to fight 1vsX, regardless of the gamemode. They know what they signed up for, teammatches. In LoL that probably would be the lanebully toplaner, that complains about getting ganked, when he pushes into the enemy tower or botlane complains about 4vs2 dives. When they happened to be in such a situation either they or their teams did the mistakes to get there. The opponent managed to get an advantage, they use it, you have to find a way, to reduce the advantage or get the upper hand yourself, that is how one improves. Not by complaining about "no skill/honor noobs".

If one really wants to improve, they have to embrace Xvs1s regardless of which side they find themselves in. People that want only 1vs1 might want to improve too, but only in duels. But that is just a part of the game. In a moba, one can also say "I will focus on farming minions" but the right place for such stuff would be custom games, where you train this specific skill. Not to go into matches, where the others want to win and the player forgets the goal of the game and becomes a handicap for his team.

I have no problems with people wanting to do their 1vs1s in brawl, I often even adapt to it. But they get very annoying, when they start to complain about "no honor" especially in elimination or domination matches.

Turric4n666
03-09-2017, 11:41 AM
You think that you get an advantage by instantly wailing in 1 guy with your ally. While the other one hits you in the back? Nothing to discuss here..

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1601799-Theory-about-the-self-proclaimed-honorable-players

Shameless promotion of my thread which states exactly the Opposite.

ThePollie
03-09-2017, 11:44 AM
The ganked player can learn how to defend from multiple opponents and the attackers can practice, how not to hit each other all the time. I had plenty of dominion matches, where allies seemed to only hit me, while we faced the same opponent together. Later on, he even complained about another ally, only to hit him, what seemed for me, he was lacking a lot of awareness and skill while outnumbering people..

No. Against competent players, there is no defending yourself in a 2v1. You've lost, that's effectively it. Unless they are uncoordinated and just throwing raw heavies at you to feed revenge repeatedly, you have no hope in hell of even pretending to try and win this. Good players will bog you down with bash-spam while the other attacks during recovery. If you won a 2v1, congratulations. Your opponents were bad.

Turric4n666
03-09-2017, 11:52 AM
No. Against competent players, there is no defending yourself in a 2v1. You've lost, that's effectively it. Unless they are uncoordinated and just throwing raw heavies at you to feed revenge repeatedly, you have no hope in hell of even pretending to try and win this. Good players will bog you down with bash-spam while the other attacks during recovery. If you won a 2v1, congratulations. Your opponents were bad.

But op stated that it is 2on1 right at the start of the game.. That one instantly gets ganked and that this is unfair. It is not.

Also you can just assume that people play by made up rules without stating that in the beginning. You can ask to fight sequential but you can not expect that and you can surely not flame anyone for not following it. That is the problem.

Sirrkas
03-09-2017, 12:09 PM
No. Against competent players, there is no defending yourself in a 2v1. You've lost, that's effectively it. Unless they are uncoordinated and just throwing raw heavies at you to feed revenge repeatedly, you have no hope in hell of even pretending to try and win this. Good players will bog you down with bash-spam while the other attacks during recovery. If you won a 2v1, congratulations. Your opponents were bad.

Or it might be just the next tactic, waiting for a proper counter. The only time it was impossible for me to do anything, was against a lawbringer, that throw me over himself all the time.

The game probably needs something to change those scenarios.

Alustar.
03-09-2017, 12:52 PM
So this argument isn't new. It's been around since pvp matches made their way into MMOs and it's every bit as invalid now as it was then, and this is why:
Unless you are in a match that specifically states 1v1, you can't complain when you are grouped up on.
The game even gives you the ability to engage multiple people and shows you how.
Complaining that you can't 1v1 in group matches is flat out ignorant. Go practice and get skilled instead of trying to force everyone around you into an arbitrary set of rules that don't exist.
(Btw this is coming from a scrub player who has had the game a month and gets team rolled every other match.) It's a video game, climb of your high horse.

Obdach01
03-09-2017, 02:55 PM
Speaking about Honor the way it is done in this forum makes me think not a single person has watched the intro video... honor is something the victor shout, when they have won and the looser shout the opposite at their victors. It has been like this in real life, just remember history. I don't want to count all the dishonorable things 'honorable' soldiers did to innocent bystanders and prisoners... but if you watch the intro video and maybe play the storyline, you must be blinde not to see the irony of the title. It is ment historically acurate.
The setting we are in, in this game, has nothing to do with honor. We are playing warriors who have fought all their lives, even forgot why they fight... they fight because they are warriors and need to survive. The need for survival leaves not a single inch for honor. Honor has never survived. Honor is in christianity one thing, in Bushido another and with the Norse something entirely different.
The way you see honor, is the way you see it, but here are three cultures out of which two don't see it the way you do... simply because honor means something else in their culture and religion.
Please people stop thinking honor can only be seen the way you see it. There are as many views of something as there are people in the world... and there has never been honor in war and survival, as the story of this freaking game is set in.
I rest my case. Really tired of this honor discussion, as if there was only one kind of honor... in a war of murder and slaughter. lol

Captain-Courage
03-09-2017, 03:00 PM
Unless you are in a match that specifically states 1v1, you can't complain when you are grouped up on.
The game even gives you the ability to engage multiple people and shows you how.
Complaining that you can't 1v1 in group matches is flat out ignorant


And more on that : we're dealing with a computer product.

In such things, code (understand : source code) is law.
Always.
Everithing else is irrelevant, because every bit of the game is in the code. The rulset is written within this code and can only manifest itself because of it.

In a video game you can't do what the programmers don't allow you to do (unless you cheat and hack). You can only do what they want you to.

If 2 v 2 brawls were suposed to be 1v1 + 1v1 only, programmers could simply physically prevent you to hit your teammate's adversary in such game mode.

They didn't, and even more, built mechanics to deal with fights in numerical inferiority.