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View Full Version : Suggesting v. Whining



XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 08:12 PM
I have read many posts here trying to find useful information which has been a mostly fruitless effort. IL2 and FB are beyond a doubt the best, most realistic flight sims on the market. Can it be improved? Are there faults and bugs? Yes. I am sure some of us like myself are licensed pilots and can appreciate much of the realism and be disappointed by some of the faults. Many of you have accomplished what seems to be exhaustive research on very fine details of particular aircraft. As well, many of you have expressed dissatisfaction in that it may appear that the designers have not done the same research or expended the effort required to incorporate them in the flight models. This may be true but then again maybe not. I submit the following for consideration: It may be that we have become spoiled by the incredible detail of this simulation that we expect and are disappointed when many details or a particular detail is missed or erroneous. Do we have a right to bring them to the developers' attention? Yes, some may even believe that we have an obligation to do so not only for our enjoyment of the simulation but for the enjoyment of other players as well. I can tell you as a pilot, that there is no other flight sim that comes close to this and runs as reliably. (If you want real frustration, buy a copy of MSFS 2004. I'll be putting mine up for sale on EBay soon.) I can tell you as a programmer that you cannot possibly program for every eventuality that will occur. Does everyone here comprehend the incredible mathematical processes that have to go on to model these flying conditions? The developers cannot possible program for every variable that could affect a given aircrafts climb rate i.e. air temperature, air pressure, humidity, fuel temperature, convection, etc. The testers cannot possible test every eventuality either. Nobody can put the simulation through it's paces like the vast horde of players we have out there. The developers , in trying to respond to various complaints have fallen into the old trap: 'You can please some of the people all of the time and you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time'. (Poetic license to Abe Lincoln) We as customers have every right to expect the best product your money can buy and given the current offerings in this genre, I think we have that. Yet, as a community we also have the opportunity to test the simulation as it can never be tested before production and to discover frailties and foibles that can and should be presented to the developers in a mature and sensible manner with regard to the incredible effort, design and craftsmanship that a simulation of this caliber requires. In short, I propose that instead of whining, complaining and name-calling we work together with the developers to improve and expand their product. I will point out mistakes and omissions to them, wait patiently for them to be worked out and work with them when they aren't. I would hope the rest do the same, and I would also hope the developers make the best use of all the testing and research that goes on in the community as well.


"When you have to shoot; shoot, don't talk."

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 08:12 PM
I have read many posts here trying to find useful information which has been a mostly fruitless effort. IL2 and FB are beyond a doubt the best, most realistic flight sims on the market. Can it be improved? Are there faults and bugs? Yes. I am sure some of us like myself are licensed pilots and can appreciate much of the realism and be disappointed by some of the faults. Many of you have accomplished what seems to be exhaustive research on very fine details of particular aircraft. As well, many of you have expressed dissatisfaction in that it may appear that the designers have not done the same research or expended the effort required to incorporate them in the flight models. This may be true but then again maybe not. I submit the following for consideration: It may be that we have become spoiled by the incredible detail of this simulation that we expect and are disappointed when many details or a particular detail is missed or erroneous. Do we have a right to bring them to the developers' attention? Yes, some may even believe that we have an obligation to do so not only for our enjoyment of the simulation but for the enjoyment of other players as well. I can tell you as a pilot, that there is no other flight sim that comes close to this and runs as reliably. (If you want real frustration, buy a copy of MSFS 2004. I'll be putting mine up for sale on EBay soon.) I can tell you as a programmer that you cannot possibly program for every eventuality that will occur. Does everyone here comprehend the incredible mathematical processes that have to go on to model these flying conditions? The developers cannot possible program for every variable that could affect a given aircrafts climb rate i.e. air temperature, air pressure, humidity, fuel temperature, convection, etc. The testers cannot possible test every eventuality either. Nobody can put the simulation through it's paces like the vast horde of players we have out there. The developers , in trying to respond to various complaints have fallen into the old trap: 'You can please some of the people all of the time and you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time'. (Poetic license to Abe Lincoln) We as customers have every right to expect the best product your money can buy and given the current offerings in this genre, I think we have that. Yet, as a community we also have the opportunity to test the simulation as it can never be tested before production and to discover frailties and foibles that can and should be presented to the developers in a mature and sensible manner with regard to the incredible effort, design and craftsmanship that a simulation of this caliber requires. In short, I propose that instead of whining, complaining and name-calling we work together with the developers to improve and expand their product. I will point out mistakes and omissions to them, wait patiently for them to be worked out and work with them when they aren't. I would hope the rest do the same, and I would also hope the developers make the best use of all the testing and research that goes on in the community as well.


"When you have to shoot; shoot, don't talk."

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 09:21 PM
I agree, but this shouldn't be in this forum.

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 10:44 PM
I agree wholeheartedly too - and though it ideally should not be in this forum, it is sadly relevant to post it here

C!

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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 03:49 AM
JG5_UnKle wrote:
- I agree, but this shouldn't be in this forum.
-

Uh, yes it should be here. This forum is the only place to post suggestions that might actually be implimented into the game, so this would be where you would post threads about posting suggestions. It sounds whacky but he is in the right place.

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 03:56 PM
Geesh, have you ever heard of paragraphs? I'm sure I been writing for ages about the points you've written about too.

The thing about testing is that most people assume it's only to do with useability which it isn't. Testing can also contain elements of hardware compatibility as well as looking for robustness, functionality, modular cohesion and other principles within the software.

Most testers are unsure about what they are doing anyway. If we are seen as testers for the game identifying what is useful information is seems to be over done. There are some good ideas for playability improvement and a few ideas about hardware and driver compatibility but they are only far and few between. Most people here whinge about their nations aircraft firstly then any favourite aircraft they may have.

I'm not certain about this but I think most of the programming time at the moment is taken up for a new commercial product. Any freeware patch for Forgotten Battles is likely to be worked on secondly. At least if I was Project Manager, that's the plan I'd be working to.

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 04:16 PM
~S!

Well said , bump!

Maybe the General discussion area is a good place as well.

Regards:



BPO5_Jinx
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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 05:53 PM
Great Post. My sediments exactly!

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/insignia/italy/incocca-tende-scaglia.jpg
Saluti!
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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 07:30 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- Great Post. My sediments exactly!

Yes, Mike, I have my own deeply-felt "little fragments of rocks that float downwards in a liquid" about this subject, too... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

GreyBeast_P39

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 04:59 PM
No offense - it should be in general discussion - But I agree with what was posted.

I know the ORR seems logical but you only get labelled as a "Whiner-Whiner" or some other pathetic BS.

You can't even come here and post any sort of suggestion or topic (even with data) without being labelled a "Luftwhiner/VVSWhiner/AmiWhiner/EuroWhiner/Britwhiner/Stangwhiner/JugWhiner" Blah Blah Blah

It wasn't like this in the past. Back in the demo days and early release days it was different. I don't know why it turned like it did /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Anyway, didn't want to sound-off like a smartass, nice post.

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 05:24 PM
hi,
the poetic saying of Abr. Lincoln..you can underline in case of the well known problem of pilots view in FW 190.. since release of IL2....and the reaction of the developer..

some developers are more closed in the obstinacy to fix main mistakes in design than the products of them

cpirrmann wrote:
- I have read many posts here trying to find useful
- information which has been a mostly fruitless
- effort. IL2 and FB are beyond a doubt the best, most
- realistic flight sims on the market. Can it be
- improved? Are there faults and bugs? Yes. I am sure
- some of us like myself are licensed pilots and can
- appreciate much of the realism and be disappointed
- by some of the faults. ....