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View Full Version : Still. Can not. Counter. Guard. Break.



Tazimuss
03-02-2017, 03:08 AM
Yes, I realize there is a certain timing, and I know exactly what that timing is. Yes, I realize they JUST updated it to work like it did in BETA - where I was fully able to do it. NO I STILL CAN NOT COUNTER A SINGLE GUARD BREAK.

I PRESS THE CORRECT BUTTON, AT THE CORRECT TIME, AND IT DOES. NOT. WORK.

PEOPLE ARE STILL ABLE TO COUNTER MY GUARD BREAKS FREELY, BY PRESSING THE BUTTON AT THE CORRECT TIME, AND I AM NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT.

THIS MAKES ME WANT TO KILL VARIOUS THINGS.

B3NNS
03-02-2017, 03:13 AM
What platform are you playing on? As far as I know the patch has only been released on PC. The patch for console is still pending approval by Sony and Microsoft.

FRAKTICA
03-02-2017, 03:14 AM
Yes, I realize there is a certain timing, and I know exactly what that timing is. Yes, I realize they JUST updated it to work like it did in BETA - where I was fully able to do it. NO I STILL CAN NOT COUNTER A SINGLE GUARD BREAK.

I PRESS THE CORRECT BUTTON, AT THE CORRECT TIME, AND IT DOES. NOT. WORK.

PEOPLE ARE STILL ABLE TO COUNTER MY GUARD BREAKS FREELY, BY PRESSING THE BUTTON AT THE CORRECT TIME, AND I AM NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT.

THIS MAKES ME WANT TO KILL VARIOUS THINGS.


LOL; thank you for that!

Tazimuss
03-02-2017, 03:24 AM
Fck you
fkc your broken gd dmn game
the only fking time i fcking die is when people grab me and there's literally nothing i can do about it
fck you give me my money back

Liu_Bae
03-02-2017, 03:37 AM
Jump into duel practice with a Lv 3 bot until you get the timing down. It's still never going to be perfect for the same reason you don't block every attack or parry every unblockable - sometimes you're just gonna **** it up, or fall for a feint or whatever else. But it is more doable now.

That being said it also helps to look out for common GB 'moves' - watch for when they close the gap (especially if they have an already long-reach weapon like the Kensei or Lawbringer) cos they're probably about to try and GB you.

Gen.Armchair
03-02-2017, 03:52 AM
I PRESS THE CORRECT BUTTON, AT THE CORRECT TIME, AND IT DOES. NOT. WORK.
.

If it's not working then you're not pressing it at the correct time.

War-Wolf9
03-02-2017, 04:55 AM
If it's not working then you're not pressing it at the correct time.

I don't see how this was helpful at all the post above yours was very helpful way to be a troll good job thumb thug

BlueBerry__x3
03-02-2017, 07:28 AM
Reverse what shouldnt be unblockable cause it's called guard breaking is a stupid thing, they should do something about it cause it starting to bore me out when people just abuse it and you can't do anything

AegonTheConq
03-02-2017, 07:30 AM
Dude, calm down. The problem is obviously you, or your own connection. You don't need to come on here cursing like a little child lol. Are you playing on WiFi? My guess is yes, or maybe you have a crappy PC. Plenty of people deal with guard breaks just fine. Even before the unneeded nerf.

coloss3070
03-02-2017, 10:19 AM
The typical bad complainer who wants to play easy *** CoD-like game and refuses to adapt and learn how to play. That's why our game gained some bad fame, ladies and gentlemen. The problem is in the casual player base not in the game itself.

I do not want to be blamed in trolling so my advance to the OP is to go to menus: How to Play> Advance Practice and learn the counter GB timing against the bot. If you play pre-patch - look for the animation where the bot/opponent puts his hand on you and you immidiately press the GB, if you play post-patch - start mashing the button as soon as you see the animation. This makes it so much easier for new players I guess.

Mr_Gallows
03-02-2017, 10:44 AM
The fact that GB is such a hit topic and most diskussions about gameplay revolve around GB is a testament of the problems with the game.

We should be talking about the cool core gameplay, the three-way attack defence system.

But instead it's all about this one button skill, wanting it nerfed for buffed.

GB should be a minor side dish - not the main course.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1585011-Fixing-the-core-of-For-Honor

coloss3070
03-02-2017, 11:53 AM
The fact that GB is such a hit topic and most diskussions about gameplay revolve around GB is a testament of the problems with the game.

We should be talking about the cool core gameplay, the three-way attack defence system.

But instead it's all about this one button skill, wanting it nerfed for buffed.

GB should be a minor side dish - not the main course.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1585011-Fixing-the-core-of-For-Honor

Kk, stop spamming this already, we got it.

Mr_Gallows
03-02-2017, 12:01 PM
Kk, stop spamming this already, we got it.

No. I use it as a signature whenever I want. The link is not assassinating your free will not to read it. Just present your own ideas and don't spend so much time telling others how to post. I post politely, and don't flame other peoples ideas even when disagreeing. I certainly am not interrested in a meta discussion about post ethics ;)

MeArney
03-02-2017, 12:04 PM
On console itīs still after you see the red gb icon. You can hear a slight "tap" sound, that is when you press to counter. Works 50% of the time, 100% of the time!
I practised this on lvl3 bots. Took a while, but now Iīm able to do it and I also play a lot better. You donīt need to spam the button. Listen to the "tap" sound. Hope this helps, this is also a viable way to counter vortex spamming Wardens, who usually get trampled on after it because thatīs all they know how to do.

EmeraldCthulhu
03-02-2017, 12:28 PM
On console itīs still after you see the red gb icon.

This is the most important part. Your instinct tells you that, well, I block when I see red, and I parry when I see red, so I CGB when I see red as well. But nope, it's after you see red - if you press it while the red shield becomes visible you messed up and you will fail.

And I know, it's hard, I fail myself all the time, but as soon as you realise why you will get better with time.

Mr_Gallows
03-02-2017, 12:35 PM
This is the most important part. Your instinct tells you that, well, I block when I see red, and I parry when I see red, so I CGB when I see red as well. But nope, it's after you see red - if you press it while the red shield becomes visible you messed up and you will fail.

And I know, it's hard, I fail myself all the time, but as soon as you realise why you will get better with time.

You do not have to get better at the timing though, as it's being changed :)

Bracus_Maximus
03-02-2017, 12:38 PM
This is the most important part. Your instinct tells you that, well, I block when I see red, and I parry when I see red, so I CGB when I see red as well. But nope, it's after you see red - if you press it while the red shield becomes visible you messed up and you will fail.

And I know, it's hard, I fail myself all the time, but as soon as you realise why you will get better with time.

Well if you parry when you see the red mark you failed too. At least at the slow heavies.

Op. :Practice with bots and you will get used to the right timing. Thats what i and many of us did too.

DethOriginal
03-02-2017, 02:47 PM
I have practiced against bots for hours and although my timing may not be perfect its pretty close. This still only gets me maybe a 50% success ration in game. I still believe most of these timing issues come from crap connections. Most games I am the only one with an open NAT green connection (along with open ports).

JackStreicher
03-02-2017, 03:24 PM
MY counter-grab works, sometimes.

I have a ****load of other issues but only with my main charakter, the rest plays just fine:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1595786-Warden-not-Working?p=12395646#post12395646

Tatsumaru.
03-02-2017, 04:15 PM
Yes, I realize there is a certain timing, and I know exactly what that timing is. Yes, I realize they JUST updated it to work like it did in BETA - where I was fully able to do it. NO I STILL CAN NOT COUNTER A SINGLE GUARD BREAK.

I PRESS THE CORRECT BUTTON, AT THE CORRECT TIME, AND IT DOES. NOT. WORK.

PEOPLE ARE STILL ABLE TO COUNTER MY GUARD BREAKS FREELY, BY PRESSING THE BUTTON AT THE CORRECT TIME, AND I AM NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT.

THIS MAKES ME WANT TO KILL VARIOUS THINGS.

What platform are you using? I use a PC with a 360 controller. I have had a lot of similar frustration. The recent patch has certainly made a difference. Prior I got 0% now i get like 15-20%. There is a controller bug for PC users where if you are pressing any other buttons it cancels out the GB input. You literally have to let go of everything and hit GB. This is an extreme disadvantage(compared to Kb/M users) considering we have to relinquish positive control of our guard already to get to our GB button in time, let alone releasing ALL buttons. Until they allow Controller users to re-map the button bindings I fear GB counters will continue to be non-existent and a free combo/throw for all Kb/M opponents.

Also, here is an interesting video on GB bugs;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRkBiNUPhUI&index=19&list=WL

Grimmyke
03-02-2017, 04:39 PM
Also, here is an interesting video on GB bugs;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRkBiNUPhUI&index=19&list=WL

+100
They say they reverted it back to beta state but it still doesn't feel like that. Now it's just completely unresponsive. The release state GB atleast had a specific timing to it that I could nail 50/50 of the time. Now it's back to 0/100. Just so frustrating when many classes get free cheese after a GB.

Mr_Gallows
03-02-2017, 04:46 PM
What platform are you using? I use a PC with a 360 controller. I have had a lot of similar frustration. The recent patch has certainly made a difference. Prior I got 0% now i get like 15-20%. There is a controller bug for PC users where if you are pressing any other buttons it cancels out the GB input. You literally have to let go of everything and hit GB. This is an extreme disadvantage(compared to Kb/M users) considering we have to relinquish positive control of our guard already to get to our GB button in time, let alone releasing ALL buttons. Until they allow Controller users to re-map the button bindings I fear GB counters will continue to be non-existent and a free combo/throw for all Kb/M opponents.

Also, here is an interesting video on GB bugs;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRkBiNUPhUI&index=19&list=WL

Yes that video shows a completely broken GB system, where you will in many cases have no idea what's going to happen when you press the button. Both initiating GB at the same time should just cancel both.

Broken system.

xan1112
03-02-2017, 04:50 PM
If it's not working then you're not pressing it at the correct time.

Generally agree, but I will say that sometimes it just feels like it doesn't work? I wonder if there's a lag component which affects the timing against certain players, or in certain situations (remember, your lag each player will be different due to the p2p architecture). For example, in 1v1's now that I've put in a lot of practice, I can guard break MUCH more reliably than I used to be able to. Mostly this is me learning the matchups and timings of different classes.

Last night I was playing a bunch and was probably hitting 60-75% of my guard break counters, that's damn good for me. This morning playing some Dominion, and I didn't hit 1 in 3 matches, except by accident. I also didn't hit a single parry and missed LOADS of blocks too. To me it felt like I was lagging - maybe I was?

Well worth checking your ping etc. and doing some bot tests to see if you can do it there reliably. I have the feeling from my games today that sometimes the window is a lot shorter in reality than it is in theory.

xan1112
03-02-2017, 05:00 PM
Yes that video shows a completely broken GB system, where you will in many cases have no idea what's going to happen when you press the button. Both initiating GB at the same time should just cancel both.

Broken system.

Not a broken system, 1 (apparently) broken aspect still it seems:

1. Guard break counter works much better now.
2. Guard break catches dodges - rock, paper, scissors. If you think your opponent will GB, don't dodge, light attack instead.
3. Follow up guard breaks - if you GB instantly after a GB attempt that connected but you didn't follow up on, you'll miss. Stops GB spamming. If you don't follow up a GB, don't try and GB instantly, you'll miss.
4. Simultaneous guard breaks - seems in some situations its still wierd. From my own play since the patch I'll say it IS possible to counter out of a guard break when you both did it at the same time. this seems to show that it doesn't always work. Fair enough - that's a question for UBI.

On point 4: Personally, I agree with the view that if you both do a GB within a certain time window it should just cancel out (like a tech throw in almost any fighting game). Push both players back a *short* distance, cost both players equal stamina and then carry on.

PrimaGoosa
03-02-2017, 05:03 PM
Also, here is an interesting video on GB bugs;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRkBiNUPhUI&index=19&list=WL

I already don't like this video 1 minute in. There's no button press overlay to show when he is pressing the button, it just shows him counter GB successfully, then a message pops up saying "As you can see, it's easier now". So many people could have done that successfully that many times in a row pre-patch.

Also, GB is supposed to catch you mid-dodge. It's an anti-defensive move, since dodge counters many swings like block, GB counters dodges and blocks. If you're an assassin who relies on dodging, you can to a dodge-attack which then blocks the GB, since you're attacking. That's how it's supposed to work. You aren't supposed to just dodge around like an animal avoiding everything they might do.

And what kind of point is he trying to make about GB spam? If you let a GB go the full duration, then they can't immediately grab you, but you can grab them back? Does this actually work on players or is it a bot limitation? And even so, that situation has literally never happened to me. If I get GB'd, and they don't do anything to me, I don't come out and immediately try to GB them back. That sounds like a terrible idea to begin with, so why would anyone do it? Is this supposed to show that you can "troll" someone by just grabbing and holding them repeatedly, because every time you let go they try to GB you immediately instead of doing *literally anything else*?

The only interesting thing here is when the bot uses GB after the player starts it, but again, is this limited to bot behavior? Bots already do strange things sometimes, like recover faster than a gear-disabled player after parries and such.

This is only a good vid if your confirmation bias is showing.

xan1112
03-02-2017, 05:28 PM
The only interesting thing here is when the bot uses GB after the player starts it, but again, is this limited to bot behavior? Bots already do strange things sometimes, like recover faster than a gear-disabled player after parries and such.

I'm not 100% certain on this. To me it definitely feels like a change since pre-patch. I've def been caught with a GB while pressing GB myself, and then been able to counter GB out of it which I never was able to do pre-patch. That I at least have a chance to GB is good and very welcome; maybe there's still wierd timing with it that means you can't counter it in certain situations - I'm not sure.

See my edit below... this was my original thinking, but I'm not so sure any more....
What I do agree with, as per my previous comment, is the view that if both you and your opponent decide to GB at the same moment (+- some leeway of course for lag and what have you), NEITHER player should get an advantage (in general). This is different to say, 2 players deciding to light attack at the same time. Different characters and different attacks have different properties (see also Shugoki where that is pretty much his playstyle!), but GB is pretty much constant across the whole cast as far as I can see. Therefore, the only decision is "should I GB now". If both of you decide to do it at the same time, then that is symmetric and noone should get an advantage (in general).

I would probably opt for something like a throw tech in a fighting game which seems the most analogous situation to me. Play the GB counter effect or something similar, and push both characters back a short way so they end up neutral, where they started.

This doesn't mean that in all situations neither player can come out behind from this... and that's fine. For example, if you were on the lip of an edge, maybe the recovery would push you over. Maybe the recovery could stagger you against a wall. That's something that would need tweaking and balancing from gameplay guys much smarter than me, but it still means there's potential for strategic decision making, even in the neutral GB Countter situation. For example, the following mind games:

* Oppnent next to ledge, want to throw them over, so want to GB.
* Know that if they GB at the same time, the "double counter" will happen and they'll just get pushed over the edge, so GB becomes a REALLY good option.
* Opponent knows this, so chooses to delay GB so he can GB counter to get the enemy off him.
* You know your oppnant knows this so you delay your gb to get the simultaneous effect.....
* etc to Yomi level 90000.

In short, what I don't like is a system that feels arbitrary. Who gets (hit/parried/grabbed) should ALWAYS follow predictable rules. This is the only bit that feels wrong to me at the moment - it seems that in the case you both hit GB together, the game "arbitrarily" decides who gets GB, and who has to play the counter QTE game.

Maybe it's not really arbitrary? Maybe it's whoever pressed it first/last based on frame number since the last syncronization. Maybe it's always whichever player's attack got into the queue first etc. Maybe it's just lag that lets it *appear* that your GB started, and really you got GB from block?

Whatever the reason, it should be obvious and predictable for players so that it can be incorporated into play and mind games. That's my opinion anyway.

EDIT:

re-reading this and I'm actually more confused now that I was when I started. I was thinking about WHY it might be the way it is at the moment. I still don't think it feels right, but if we imagine that simultaneous guard breaks just resulted in a neutral outcome - what's the impact that would have.

It maybe makes for a more spammy and less reactionary play style.

* At present, the only way "out" of a GB is to CGB with precise timing. You can't do anything to "get out ahead of time" (except for attacking etc.)
* With the above system, you can just go for the grab yourself, like a tech throw in a fighting game.
* This would make it much harder to land grabs in the first place at all, because they have 2 points of "escape", 1) predict the incoming grab and grab at the same time and 2) counter once grabbed.
* Given how important grabs are as a core mechanic and setup for a lot of skills etc., grabs being much easier to avoid would reduce srategic diversity a lot.
* If you accept that, but want to keep the "new" grab mechanic then you could remove the guard break counter entirely. Now grabs are harder to land (because they are easier to avoid) but are guarenteed to give you whatever you wanted from the grab in the first place.

The net result is that you have a:
* More predictable guard break system (from a player perspective)
* at the "cost" of more "mash" friendly inputs
* where guard breaks will land less often
* but are guaranteed results if you do land one

This is exactly analogous with a trad fighting game where skilled players are rarely thrown because they know when to tech grabs in combos etc.

Compared to currently:

* Occasionally unpredictable system
* Skill / reaction based get out mechanic
* More grabs land
* Less certain of the outcome of each.

Despite my original thinking, I'm really not sure which way is better? It certainly FEELS bad when you press grab, but end up grabbed (like in the video). It FEELS like you got punished for making a "good" call, and often when that happens I'm surprised and don't react fast enough to counter.

However, I'm not sure I like the alternative. If I setup a situation where grab is my best option, I actually don't want it to be trivially easy to counter my grab...

Game design ain't easy!

Mr_Gallows
03-02-2017, 07:09 PM
Well yeah didn't mean the entire game was broken, but those elements of GB are. The same holds true for the very core of the game. The three-way attack/defence system that should be the main attraction, simply does not work, because blocking cannot be balanced against two very different attack speeds with the current block mechanic. Everything else should support this core mechanic, but instead the added attacks and options attempt to remedy the fact that it is very badly balanced. If the game had just one attack speed, it could be done, but it doesn't. They should just make block follow similar principles and it would allow balancing away from the turtle meta and the need for GB as the only viable way to hit with a heavy.

PrimaGoosa
03-02-2017, 07:21 PM
Actually, with the proper conditioning, you can land heavies if you make your opponent think you always feint then go into a fast attack from a different direction. They'll anticipate you going a different direction by reflex, then your heavy that you typically feint just goes through and hits them. I've seen it happen a lot, especially when someone plays Raider. Cancel side heavies into the top stun attack several times, then just let the heavy go through.

There's a time and a place for heavies even in matchups where both players know what they are doing. It isn't only after a GB.

Mr_Gallows
03-02-2017, 07:58 PM
Actually, with the proper conditioning, you can land heavies if you make your opponent think you always feint then go into a fast attack from a different direction. They'll anticipate you going a different direction by reflex, then your heavy that you typically feint just goes through and hits them. I've seen it happen a lot, especially when someone plays Raider. Cancel side heavies into the top stun attack several times, then just let the heavy go through.

There's a time and a place for heavies even in matchups where both players know what they are doing. It isn't only after a GB.

Heavies are unsafe and when many characters have perfectly safe options, it would not be optimal play at all. Yes you can land them against some people but if your opponent knows what he is doing, he will punish you for taking initiative with an unsafe heavy. With a slight revamp of heavy blocking, they would be fine. The problem is safe mixups, that cannot be punished or are very hard to punish. Plus free punish simply because you parry.

Nina_Flowers
03-02-2017, 08:26 PM
I use a PC with a 360 controller.There is a controller bug for PC users where if you are pressing any other buttons it cancels out the GB input. You literally have to let go of everything and hit GB.

Damn, this is shiiit =( i use 360 gamepad on PC too, and a lot of times im going to press X ... and press START ...
And again you need to leave all the damn buttons or cant leave menú just pressing B. hehe this sucks.

PrimaGoosa
03-02-2017, 08:51 PM
Heavies are unsafe and when many characters have perfectly safe options, it would not be optimal play at all. Yes you can land them against some people but if your opponent knows what he is doing, he will punish you for taking initiative with an unsafe heavy. With a slight revamp of heavy blocking, they would be fine. The problem is safe mixups, that cannot be punished or are very hard to punish. Plus free punish simply because you parry.

Heavies are unsafe, but in the right situation they still land.

Check the time on this vid: https://youtu.be/3Zn8rQO7pIM?t=48s

To end the fight he does two things: first, he cancels the side-heavy into the top stun while the Orochi tries to parry the side heavy. Then, he just lets the heavy through, and you see his opponent go from blocking to the side to trying to parry the subsequent top stun again. Instead he eats the heavy and dies.

It isn't like he doesn't know what he's doing, but it got into his head and a simple side heavy went through for the kill. Often times trying to stick to purely optimal moves makes you predictable, and predictability is a death sentence.

Mr_Gallows
03-02-2017, 08:59 PM
I'm not going to argue with you that it is possible, because you are right. Also optimal play is boring as hell. :)

But making heavy attacks slightly harder to block would be good :)