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glottis77
04-15-2004, 03:25 AM
A thing which I always found amazing is how many ultra-high scoring pilots the germans had. I don't know for sure, but I think they had at least 10 pilots with more than 200 kills. Actually I wonder how "serious" these numbers are, especially since information in Hitler-Germany was at least a bit biased (sarcasm), and most of us know the reality content of Goebbels' propaganda machine. So what I'd like to ask you is if there are other sources (if such a thing is possible) that Hartmann et al. really downed so incredibly many planes.

glottis77
04-15-2004, 03:25 AM
A thing which I always found amazing is how many ultra-high scoring pilots the germans had. I don't know for sure, but I think they had at least 10 pilots with more than 200 kills. Actually I wonder how "serious" these numbers are, especially since information in Hitler-Germany was at least a bit biased (sarcasm), and most of us know the reality content of Goebbels' propaganda machine. So what I'd like to ask you is if there are other sources (if such a thing is possible) that Hartmann et al. really downed so incredibly many planes.

csThor
04-15-2004, 03:35 AM
To a large degree they were correct although a certain percentage of overclaiming was there (e.g. the heavily smoking plane made it home though or something like that).

The question was raised for the first time after the war and historians - when researching that stuff - were astonished how close to the truth the official german statistics were (note: to claim a kill does not mean the officials granted that claim!). Aside the VVS from 1943 on the Luftwaffe had the strictest set of rules for claiming a kill - witness on ground, in air or guncam film of the crash/explosion of the enemy AC were required to be granted a kill claim. Sketchy claims were mostly not handed over to RLM from the Geschwader as these would not be granted in the most cases.

The bottom line is - we will never know how many victories the "Aces" really had and doubting the scores just because "that cannot be" or "that's propaganda" is most likely to produce a nice flamewar http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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madsarmy
04-15-2004, 03:39 AM
Everybody run! Fire in the hole. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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|CoB|_Spectre
04-15-2004, 03:50 AM
Author-researchers Constable and Tolliver found that the vast majority of the scores could be confirmed. Several factors to consider was the length of service (for some beginning in the Spanish Civil War), the quality of the air forces they went up against (quality equating to relative technology of the machines as well as aircrew training) and the sheer numbers of targets. As General Gunther Rall once said, you either got an iron cross or a wooden one. Germany did not rotate their pilots after a certain number of missions, therefore able-bodied pilots were in combat for the duration. The Luftwaffe operated in a target-rich environment on both fronts that only increased as the war progressed. While there were many Luftwaffe pilots with more than 100 victories, you have to compare that with the numbers of those who were KIA. There are many references that deal with this subject and they all make interesting reading.

glottis77
04-15-2004, 04:27 AM
thanks for the intelligent replies to my question.

WUAF_Co_Hero
04-15-2004, 04:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by glottis77:
A thing which I always found amazing is how many ultra-high scoring pilots the germans had. I don't know for sure, but I think they had at least 10 pilots with more than 200 kills. Actually I wonder how "serious" these numbers are, especially since information in Hitler-Germany was at least a bit biased (sarcasm), and most of us know the reality content of Goebbels' propaganda machine. So what I'd like to ask you is if there are other sources (if such a thing is possible) that Hartmann et al. really downed so incredibly many planes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a matter of fact, yes: there are many sources... otherwise known as all in existance, that state that Hartmann scored 352 kills. Now, whether or not all his victories actually DIED is a different story... but that is abo****ely the truth. Coupled with Hartmann's dissociation with the Nazi party, I have a hard time believing he would have embelished the truth... That, and the fact that he lived many years after the war, and was never doubted, or if so, never proved incorrect.

Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.

Also, consider the amount of kills he had, over the time period he flew: three years. Considering that many of us make hundreds of kills in a week, is it really unbelievable to think that the greatest ace of all time would make sometimes 10 kills in a day? He did fly 1400 sorties btw, which avg's him at 1/4 kill/ sortie. Doesn't seem as incredible when you look at it that way... but it was.

negus1
04-15-2004, 06:45 AM
what an ace hartmann was is best shown by the fact that the russian sentenced him to 25 years labour camp for his war crimes (what war crimes can a fighter pilot commit?). however hartmann was maybe not the best german fighter pilot. here in germany m√¬∂lders, galland and esp. marseille were and are much more appreciated.

"Negus 1 an alle kleinen Br√ľder, wir greifen an! Kameraden, dicht aufschlie√üen zum Sturmangriff! Die Begleitgruppe aufpassen auf Indianer. Wir machen Pauke, Pauke; nur die Ruhe, Kameraden, alles mir nach!"
Maj. Dahl JG 300

Coldgas
04-15-2004, 06:48 AM
Here is a nice site with a lot of aces from different countris.

http://1000pictures.com/aircraft/aces.htm#Norway

Zer Germans had the absoloutely best scors! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

Chuck_Older
04-15-2004, 07:31 AM
Also, bear in mind that on the Eastern Front, there was a period of time in which German pilots were shooting down Russian bombers that had only one crew member: the pilot. A pilot that was more afraid of being shot by a firing squad than of the Germans. A defenseless target, to say the least.

Also, in the early stages of the attack on the Soviet Union, that nation was still recovering from Stalin's Purges of the officer corps. Training and morale couldn't have been exemplary, and neither could organisation and trust.

*****************************
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Itto_Okami
04-15-2004, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by negus1:
what an ace hartmann was is best shown by the fact that the russian sentenced him to 25 years labour camp for his war crimes (what war crimes can a fighter pilot commit?).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've read time ago, here in the forum, that the sentence about Hartmann cited as war crime the distruction of 347 russian aircrafts, thing that caused high economic loss to the Russians...

S!

Okami

Aztek_Eagle
04-15-2004, 09:32 AM
well if the guy survive all war in combat duty, and was in many importand battles and managed to stay alive, what would he be if not an ace?

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Franzen
04-15-2004, 11:00 AM
A Hollywood movie star? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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Cossack_UA
04-15-2004, 11:03 AM
Liddel Hart and Basil Henry had these totals for Battle of Britain:

British clamed at the end of October of 1940: 2698 German aircaft shot down.

1733 German aircraft shot down in reality.
about 150% overstatement

British actually lost 915 aircraft by the end of October of 1940
Germans claimed 3058 aircraft shot down.
Thats more than 300% overstatement by Germans.

Don't know how the holw claiming thing worked out but TWO THOUSAND aircraft must have been clamed by someone and that someone actually never shot them down.

lazio5
04-15-2004, 11:11 AM
Franzen, isnt that the truth! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

crazyivan1970
04-15-2004, 11:16 AM
I am a little sceptical about numbers as well. If you read Pokrishkin, Kozhedubs, Babak`s and many others - and compare to Blong Knight of Germany - you will see inconsistences, quiet a few of them. Of course both sides are biased (yes i said that word) to some extent, so you will have to balance in the middle.

V!
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faustnik
04-15-2004, 11:24 AM
I always note actual losses to claims when reading unit histories or any WW2 historical material. Frequently, claims are not even close to actual losses. A good rule of thumb might be 50% of claims are actual losses to the enemy.

The ONLY instance I have read of this not being true is the analysis of losses/claims in "Black Cross/Red Star Vol. 1". It seems that during 1941 the LW claims were close to actual VVS losses.

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Jippo01
04-15-2004, 03:07 PM
On the Eastern Front most accurate were the Finns, close to no overclaiming per se. Overclaiming was there of course but then again valid claims were not approved. The second accurate where the Germans 2:1 overclaiming (Black Cross + Red Star vol.2), and worst were the Russians from 4:1 - 16:1 claims per actual kill (BC + RS vol.2, Valtonen Hannu, "Pohjoinen Ilmasota").

American and British claims(of course not taking the airgunner claims in to account) were to my understanding inbetween the latter two, more inaccurate than the Germans but more accurate than the Russians.

One thing to be noted when judging overclaiming is the operational situation: fighting over enemy territory seems to lead to overclaiming. Also flying escort missions where the fighter pilots are required to stick with a bomber fleet has the same effect. It happened to Germans in BoB and then again to allied pilots over the mainland Europe.


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WOLFMondo
04-15-2004, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack_UA:
Liddel Hart and Basil Henry had these totals for Battle of Britain:

British clamed at the end of October of 1940: 2698 German aircaft shot down.

1733 German aircraft shot down in reality.
about 150% overstatement

British actually lost 915 aircraft by the end of October of 1940
Germans claimed 3058 aircraft shot down.
Thats more than 300% overstatement by Germans.

Don't know how the holw claiming thing worked out but TWO THOUSAND aircraft must have been clamed by someone and that someone actually never shot them down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never actually thought of that before although I'd suspect those claims were not made by pilots at all but a made up by the governments to boost morale at home. The pilots themselves where probably wondering which one of them was an ace and not owning up.

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dahdah
04-15-2004, 03:22 PM
Not made up by the governmant just were not confirmed. The true numbers were known after some checking. As said, good for public moral.

XyZspineZyX
04-15-2004, 03:33 PM
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Hello,

If I may, look at the ratio number of missions, number of combat missions, combat missions with contact and fight with the ennemy and the number of combat missions with aerial victories of the different nations on the different fronts and you must make the observation that the ratio are the same!

Sensei.

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Spit_Fan
04-15-2004, 03:40 PM
John Wayne could take Hartmann.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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JimmyJazz14
04-15-2004, 03:46 PM
As it was stated above, german pilots were not rotated. Allied pilots were sent back home after 25 or 50 combat missions and usually trained new pilots. At the end of the war the german airforce had, despite the heavy bombing, sufficient aircrafts but lacked skilled pilots. Apart from the few aces who were lucky enough to survive, the Luftwaffe then only had unskilled newbs who fought against allied pilots who been trained by the allied veterans who had done their tour of combat missions.
The allied airfoces didn't have aces who had scored 300+ victories but in my opinion the rotation system was nevertheless the better one. Only a living ace can pass on his knowledge to new pilots.

johann_thor
04-15-2004, 03:49 PM
when you count damaged planes that managed to land and planes that were lost for "unknown" reasons .... they come close.

I would say usually about 70-90% depending on the situation. but there are exceptions and the germans (like all other airforces) overclaimed aircraft destroyed on the ground dramatically ... i am not going to get to serious about this and start quoting books on the subject but air-ground kills were exaggerated five to tenfold in many cases.

but here is a good account on the tremendous overclaiming in the pacific airwar

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/tuluvu/tuluvu_main.htm

salute !

Abbuzze
04-15-2004, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack_UA:
Liddel Hart and Basil Henry had these totals for Battle of Britain:

British clamed at the end of October of 1940: 2698 German aircaft shot down.

1733 German aircraft shot down in reality.
about 150% overstatement

British actually lost 915 aircraft by the end of October of 1940
Germans claimed 3058 aircraft shot down.
Thats more than 300% overstatement by Germans.

Don't know how the holw claiming thing worked out but TWO THOUSAND aircraft must have been clamed by someone and that someone actually never shot them down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct, BUT you forget to mention a single fact, british and german have diffent opinions what a shot down plane is!

The British just count a plane which crashed into the ground and make a big whole as shot down or combat loss! A bellylanded plane was not a loss cause parts of it where still useable even if the rest was a write off! Germans count such a plane as a combat loss... even if it landed in france... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So its less an overclaiming by the german pilots (at least not more than the british), but more an underclaiming by combatloss from the RAF! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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DaBallz
04-15-2004, 04:07 PM
Without making comments about the hyperinflated German
fantasy scores, the reason why Allied pilots
did not rack up the extreme scores were many.

Rotation was one good reason.

But many opted to remain in theatre and did
not get the extreme scores. There were other reasons.

In my opinion, the following reasons may help explain.

#1, Allied pilots, after the initial shock still
faced combat veterans, it's tougher to make kills
against skilled vets.

#2, Good hardware. Axis planes were good, and it
took time to achieve equality or superiority.
Initally the Germans were up against mostly
inferior machines with green pilots. The same
went for the Japanese. Later the tables were
turned as Russian machines got to be very good
and the American fighters advanced to best the
Axis equipment. The actual combat ability of
the early Allied fighters was not as bad as
most think, the AVG, "Flying Tigers" proved that
with "obsolete" P-40Bs

#3, Tactics, early on the "piece of cake" attitude
and the "one on one" WWI dogfight mentality caused
heavy losses over the Pacific and Europe.
That same indivudal dogfight mind set proved
disasterous for the Japanese after team B&Z
tactics were adopted. In this respect German
tactics were excellent early on. They avoided
the turning dogfight.

#4, The home field advantage..... There is one
advantage to fighting a hopeless battle. The fight
is usually over your territory. A pilot who is
shot down is likely to survive to try again
having learned from his mistakes.
I believe Marsailles was shot down at least 5 times!
One shoot down over Germany ended the career of
an Allied pilot.

Da...

PraetorHonoris
04-15-2004, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
hyperinflated German fantasy scores
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No comment. You have got your view on history, but you did not mention the most important reason, why allied pilot did not achieve so many kills.

From 1943 on they seriously outnumbered the Germans. Many allied fighter pilots did not even see a German airplane.
And if a few appeared, only few of the many Allied could shot down the Germans.
In Alfred Price's "The Last Year of the Luftwaffe" is said that in general there were 20 allied on one (!) German plane, later on even 40:1.
Don't forget this.

"Wir tragen die goldgelben Spiegel am Rock,
im Herzen die Treu' und die Ehre,
die Liebe zum Volk und den Glauben an Gott,
den Willen zur Waffe und Wehre."

Itto_Okami
04-15-2004, 05:26 PM
Luftwaffe overclaiming during BoB could be explained in another way... RAF pilots were facing not only fighters but bombers too. Could be that two or more gunners seeing an enemy fighter falling claimed it as a victory.
The same problem arose when Americans went over Europe with their bombers. Many gunners claiming the same falling plane gave an incredible number of victories claimed by USAAF gunners.

BTW... anyone can tell me if there is a list of the gunners aces during WWII?

S!

Okami

flockzap
04-15-2004, 05:34 PM
S!
Btw the Hartmann Biography is documented and written by American authors - Constable and Tolliver.

Flockzap

eodtech2000
04-15-2004, 09:52 PM
Hartmann got his high score through some luck but great tactics, cool nerves, great situation awareness, and large numbers of VVS A/C to pounce on. His commander Gunter Rall, had no doubts about his deadly abilites, who of course was no slouch himself.

Hartmann didn't start off to great, neither did Barkhorn. Bubi's success can be traced back to his learning his craft from veteran JG52 pilots like Grislawski who taught him to respect VVS pilots and how to stay alive.

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-15-2004, 10:31 PM
To answer the thread question...if you were one of the "statistics", then hell yeah they're serious.



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Loco-S
04-15-2004, 11:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DaBallz
wrote:
posted 15-04-04 15:07
Without making comments about the hyperinflated Germanfantasy scores, the reason why Allied pilotsdid not rack up the extreme scores were many.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry Daballz, but before getting to the conclussion of regarding german scores "fantasy" you should get aquainted with the fact that German pilots did not consider strafed aircraft as victories, they were reported as "destroyed" and in no way got to their record as Air to Air victories, in order to claim a victory in the air, it had to be confirmed by a witness/ witnesses, wreckage had to be found, gun camera film must be presented ( if available) or the claim will not be accepted, there are several accounts of pilots who shoot down allied aircraft but didnt bother to report because of lack of any of the three requisites, ( Rall, Hartmann, Galland and others got some unconfirmed kills that could not be verified comes to mind)

according to the Luftwaffe way of crediting victories, one aircraft was one kill to one single pilot, they never had tallies like some allied pilots with 5 1/4, 10 1/2 victories.......shared victories?..he he...please

some Allied pilots ( and Im not saying American only) became aces without downing a single aircraft themselves due this absurdity.

there are some great books written by British and American authors that go in great detail of some of those amazing pilots, please read them and get to know the real deal.

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WUAF_Co_Hero
04-16-2004, 01:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by negus1:
however hartmann was maybe not the best german fighter pilot. here in germany m√¬∂lders, galland and esp. marseille were and are much more appreciated.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isn't unexpected either (though I wasn't aware), because Hartmann himself remarked Galland as a better pilot, because the the enemy in Africa was much more deadly. This is also part of what got Hartmann such a huge sentence... because he said that TO the Russians.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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TPCMike
04-16-2004, 01:50 AM
Some claims were simply ludicrous.

Yeager for example dropped in behind a bunch of LW aircraft (109's if I remember correctly), one broke and hit another. Yeager was awarded two kills for that and he never fired a shot. (His own words from his autobiography).

I do think that most overclaimed but in the case of Hartman, given how long he flew for and the quality of opposition he flew against while 352 may be overclaimed I don't think it's unreasonable to think that his true kills were into the hundreds.

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Skii_
04-16-2004, 02:19 AM
I once heard that Adolf Galland was one of the strictest followers of confirmed kills, his total is widely believed to be larger than the 104 he is credited for as a fair proportion of his 'kills' were never accounted for as the crash/result couldn't be precisely confirmed.

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DaBallz
04-16-2004, 03:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loco-S:
[QUOTE]DaBallz
wrote:
posted 15-04-04 15:07
Without making comments about the hyperinflated Germanfantasy scores, the reason why Allied pilotsdid not rack up the extreme scores were many.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry Daballz, but before getting to the conclussion of regarding german scores "fantasy" you should get aquainted with the fact that German pilots did not consider strafed aircraft as victories, .......


Another uninformed person using the strafed planes
count to snub American pilots.

NO strafed planes are used in American pilot totals
after the war, 5 strafe kills do not make an ace.
Within the 8th AF during the war strafe kills were
counted. Those pilots were really pissed when
they lost those kills after the war.

As to the Germans and their perfect honesty.
First tell me where all those kills the Germans
claimed during the BOB came from. There were
never enough aircraft on hand unless the Brits
are lying and they had 3 TIMES AS MANY PLANES
as they really had and LOST THEM ALL.

I met a German pilot when I was in high school
who scored one official kill. His name s lost
to me, sorry, but he complained that the "golden boys"
and commanders claimed others kills. It was
good propaganda and there was extreme social
pressure to be the top ace (not unique to germans).

So, slam US pilots all you like but no strafe kills
are counted in current US pilot scores.

Da...

PraetorHonoris
04-16-2004, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
As to the Germans and their perfect honesty.
First tell me where all those kills the Germans
claimed during the BOB came from.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was done already, read the posts.
(hind: it is above your first comment in this thread)
I think you simply don't want the German pilots having achieved so many victories.
Many people here have already descriped the system how Lw-Pilots had to confirm their victory.
Sure there is some overclaim, maybe some underclaim but Hartmann's, Galland's and Rall's [...] many, many victories are reality

"Wir tragen die goldgelben Spiegel am Rock,
im Herzen die Treu' und die Ehre,
die Liebe zum Volk und den Glauben an Gott,
den Willen zur Waffe und Wehre."

[This message was edited by PraetorHonoris on Fri April 16 2004 at 03:22 AM.]

Cajun76
04-16-2004, 04:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
hyperinflated German fantasy scores
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No comment. You have got your view on history, but you did not mention the most important reason, why allied pilot did not achieve so many kills.

From 1943 on they seriously outnumbered the Germans. Many allied fighter pilots did not even see a German airplane.
And if a few appeared, only few of the many Allied could shot down the Germans.
In Alfred Price's "The Last Year of the Luftwaffe" is said that in general there were 20 allied on one (!) German plane, later on even 40:1.
Don't forget this.

"Wir tragen die goldgelben Spiegel am Rock,
im Herzen die Treu' und die Ehre,
die Liebe zum Volk und den Glauben an Gott,
den Willen zur Waffe und Wehre."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simply untrue. The Allies did not instantly gain air superioty in 1943, and overwhelm the LW. It was early 1944 when the day fighter force of the LW was mostly destroyed. Also, the LW often had local air superiority. Sure, in the later stages, the Allies outnumbered green LW pilots, but in 1943 they were facing the LW at the peak of thier strength, with seasoned pilots and some of thier best hardware (compared to what the Allies were fielding).

This leads into a bigger theme, the crying by some that the only reason the Axis lost is shear numbers, and nothing else. If I go around my neighborhood, and start insulting people, hitting several guys wives, kicking their dogs, and setting buildings on fire.... should I whine when I get my arse kicked by half the nieghborhood? "Hey, that's not fair, I could take any one of you, one at a time...." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Give credit where it's due. It was a hard fought conflict on either side, and a terrible price was paid by many young lives. Don't cheapen their sacrifices, by twisting it around.

My .02, due to the unique nature of the airwar at the time, LW tactics and the targets availible, it's concievable that the numbers are as correct as any others out there.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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Gershy
04-16-2004, 04:39 AM
btw. Hartmann never flew in the BoB.

DaBallz: as someone already posted. there were high claims in BoB on both sides but they were not credited. There's a difference in that. Another thing is that the hugh numbers in BoB were indeed made up (the purpose of the british ac destroyed count for example, off course they knew they lost an AC when it made a bellylanding but for propaganda it's better not to report it as lost, same applies for german claims). btw the German ranking and awarding system even worked in different ways. After the war the high kill numbers became more important than they actually were for the army during the war. That's why a pilot in the west got an award or a promotion after shooting 5 planes for example whereas you'd have to shoot twice as much to get the same award as a pilot in the east. Later numbers became more important but for the LW a pilot shooting a plane in the west was more "important" than one shooting a plane in the east. Just look at the really famous and highly decorated ppl during the war like Galland, Moelders, Marseille aso.

-----------------------------

So long.We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

PraetorHonoris
04-16-2004, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:

Simply untrue. The Allies did not instantly gain air superioty in 1943, and overwhelm the LW.

This leads into a bigger theme, the crying by some that the only reason the Axis lost is shear numbers, and nothing else. If I go around my neighborhood, and start insulting people, hitting several guys wives, kicking their dogs, and setting buildings on fire.... should I whine when I get my arse kicked by half the nieghborhood? "Hey, that's not fair, I could take any one of you, one at a time...." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never complained about war beeing unfair.

And it is true, what I wrote. Or do you think "allies" are only Anglo-Americans?
Do not forget: the vast mass of the Wehrmacht was defeated in the east!

"Wir tragen die goldgelben Spiegel am Rock,
im Herzen die Treu' und die Ehre,
die Liebe zum Volk und den Glauben an Gott,
den Willen zur Waffe und Wehre."

hop2002
04-16-2004, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Luftwaffe overclaiming during BoB could be explained in another way... RAF pilots were facing not only fighters but bombers too. Could be that two or more gunners seeing an enemy fighter falling claimed it as a victory.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Jagdwaffe alone (ie just the fighter squadrons) claimed 1,998 single engined fighters during the BoB, the British lost around 900 single engined fighters to all causes on operations, including those lost on the ground and to bomber's defensive guns.

If you assume a third of Spits and Hurris lost to accidents, bombers and destroyed on the ground, the Jagdwaffe overclaimed 3 to 1.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Correct, BUT you forget to mention a single fact, british and german have diffent opinions what a shot down plane is!

The British just count a plane which crashed into the ground and make a big whole as shot down or combat loss! A bellylanded plane was not a loss cause parts of it where still useable even if the rest was a write off! Germans count such a plane as a combat loss... even if it landed in france... So its less an overclaiming by the german pilots (at least not more than the british), but more an underclaiming by combatloss from the RAF!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope.

The RAF admitted losing 900 or so Spits and Hurricanes. They lost 420 Spitfire and Hurricane pilots killed.

That's a ratio of over 2 fighters "lost" for every pilot killed.

In the second half of 1941, the Luftwaffe on the channel front (Jg 2 and Jg 26) lost 100 pilots killed, 48 wounded. They admitted losing 110 fighters in combat, 168 in total.

That means they lost 1.68 planes per pilot killed.

It seems to me that the more planes you lose per pilot, the more ready you are to write off a damaged aircraft. The RAF actually admit losses more readily than the Luftwaffe.

There's a fairly obvious reason why, the RAF had an oversupply of planes during the BoB, so there wasn't pressure to keep the plane and try to repair it. Just write it off, get a new one from stores.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I once heard that Adolf Galland was one of the strictest followers of confirmed kills, his total is widely believed to be larger than the 104 he is credited for as a fair proportion of his 'kills' were never accounted for as the crash/result couldn't be precisely confirmed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adolf Galland claimed 35 kills during the BoB. All but 1 of those are counted in his "104" total.

That's 34 kills over enemy territory with no inspections of crash sites, and no witnesses other than his wingman or other subordinates.

In fact, several of Galland's 104 total were actually denied by the Luftwaffe, but they still seem to get counted in his total anyway.

Galland was supposed to have 97 kills by the time he retired from combat in late 41.

He had actually claimed 100 kills by this time, 6 had been refused. He had 1 kill in his first 60 refused. The rest were during the channel fighting in 1941, which usually occured over occupied territory.

dahdah
04-16-2004, 06:25 AM
Oh, oh, call the fire trucks for I have a feeling it is going to get hot in here. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FW190fan
04-16-2004, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dahdah:
Oh, oh, call the fire trucks for I have a feeling it is going to get hot in here. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Why Milo, you planning on starting something? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

Cossack_UA
04-16-2004, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hop2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Luftwaffe overclaiming during BoB could be explained in another way... RAF pilots were facing not only fighters but bombers too. Could be that two or more gunners seeing an enemy fighter falling claimed it as a victory.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Jagdwaffe alone (ie just the fighter squadrons) claimed 1,998 single engined fighters during the BoB, the British lost around 900 single engined fighters to all causes on operations, including those lost on the ground and to bomber's defensive guns.

If you assume a third of Spits and Hurris lost to accidents, bombers and destroyed on the ground, the Jagdwaffe overclaimed 3 to 1.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Correct, BUT you forget to mention a single fact, british and german have diffent opinions what a shot down plane is!

The British just count a plane which crashed into the ground and make a big whole as shot down or combat loss! A bellylanded plane was not a loss cause parts of it where still useable even if the rest was a write off! Germans count such a plane as a combat loss... even if it landed in france... So its less an overclaiming by the german pilots (at least not more than the british), but more an underclaiming by combatloss from the RAF!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope.

The RAF admitted losing 900 or so Spits and Hurricanes. They lost 420 Spitfire and Hurricane pilots killed.

That's a ratio of over 2 fighters "lost" for every pilot killed.

In the second half of 1941, the Luftwaffe on the channel front (Jg 2 and Jg 26) lost 100 pilots killed, 48 wounded. They admitted losing 110 fighters in combat, 168 in total.

That means they lost 1.68 planes per pilot killed.

It seems to me that the more planes you lose per pilot, the more ready you are to write off a damaged aircraft. The RAF actually admit losses _more_ readily than the Luftwaffe.

There's a fairly obvious reason why, the RAF had an oversupply of planes during the BoB, so there wasn't pressure to keep the plane and try to repair it. Just write it off, get a new one from stores.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I once heard that Adolf Galland was one of the strictest followers of confirmed kills, his total is widely believed to be larger than the 104 he is credited for as a fair proportion of his 'kills' were never accounted for as the crash/result couldn't be precisely confirmed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adolf Galland claimed 35 kills during the BoB. All but 1 of those are counted in his "104" total.

That's 34 kills over enemy territory with no inspections of crash sites, and no witnesses other than his wingman or other subordinates.

In fact, several of Galland's 104 total were actually denied by the Luftwaffe, but they still seem to get counted in his total anyway.

Galland was supposed to have 97 kills by the time he retired from combat in late 41.

He had actually claimed 100 kills by this time, 6 had been refused. He had 1 kill in his first 60 refused. The rest were during the channel fighting in 1941, which usually occured over occupied territory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point. Britsh never experienced shortages of aircraft. Pilots were in short supply though.

Boandlgramer
04-16-2004, 08:20 AM
the RAF claimed for the latter half of 1941 the destruction of 731 german fighters. in fact the true cost to the luftwaffe western based jagdgeschwader was just 103 fighters .
thats more than 700% overclaiming 7 to 1 .

but to be fair, every airforce made false claims,
sometimes fantasy claims and sometimes close to reality . no wonder in the heat of an airbattle.

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg
The first Time i saw Chuck Yeager, i shot him down. Petrosillius Zwacklmann (Held ).
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:negrFY2J26MJ:www.thienemann.de/img/rauber_5.jpg
Wachtmeister Dimpfelmoser in Verfolgung von R√¬§uber Hotzenplotz, der auf sch√¬§ndliche Weise Oma‚¬īs Kaffeem√ľhle in seinen Besitz brachte.
Gut, dass es Wachtmeister gibt , unbestechlich und tapfer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Cossack_UA
04-16-2004, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boandlgramer:
the RAF claimed for the latter half of 1941 the destruction of 731 german fighters. in fact the true cost to the luftwaffe western based jagdgeschwader was just 103 fighters .
thats more than 700% overclaiming 7 to 1 .

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Care to cite the source?

Boandlgramer
04-16-2004, 08:59 AM
well cossack, i havn‚¬īt read your source, but here :

"Osprey Aircrafts of the aces"
"Focke Wulf Aces of the Western Front " by John Weal.

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg
The first Time i saw Chuck Yeager, i shot him down. Petrosillius Zwacklmann (Held ).
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:negrFY2J26MJ:www.thienemann.de/img/rauber_5.jpg
Wachtmeister Dimpfelmoser in Verfolgung von R√¬§uber Hotzenplotz, der auf sch√¬§ndliche Weise Oma‚¬īs Kaffeem√ľhle in seinen Besitz brachte.
Gut, dass es Wachtmeister gibt , unbestechlich und tapfer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Blutarski2004
04-16-2004, 09:08 AM
Apart from differences in claim handling procedures and standards (sounds like an insurance company operation), a general correlation can be drawn between the incidence of over-claims and the nature of the aerial combat. The ratio of over-claims to actual losses tended to be least for the party fighting over its own territory, and consequently able to count physical wrecks on the ground, and greatest for the party fighting over their opponent's territory and therefore unable to do so.

BLUTARSKI

BaldieJr
04-16-2004, 09:21 AM
Blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda.

60 years ago a lot of guys jumped into airplanes and tried to kill one another because it was thier duty.

Today, we trivialize the devestation and search for needles in haystacks when a simple ****ing "thank you" to those men will suffice.

Carry on.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

Ruy Horta
04-16-2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
Without making comments about the hyperinflated Germanfantasy scores, the reason why Allied pilotsdid not rack up the extreme scores were many.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heya Da, looks like you're still like fishing!

Point is that for 60-years this issue has been debated, in the end most serious historians accept that although all sides overclaimed, at least between the Germans, Americans and Brits there is no indication that one did more so than the other.

Overclaiming varies from campaign to campaign, period to period and even unit to unit (and of course between pilots).

But a couple of Ballz isn't going to change 60-years of research and you just have to live with it...and accept that there were many who really tried hard to proof the opposite.

So if you do your reading you'll soon find out that you can just as easily find overclaiming on both sides of the fence.

As far as Japanese, Russian and to some extend Italian claims go, I'm more cautious.

And the good thing is...you don't have to take it from me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As we say in Holland: De Ballen!

Or literally: Da Ballz

From your favorite apologist

Ruy Horta

PS. Now all we need is Arcadeace to join and we have a reunion - but maybe he's still banned?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

dahdah
04-16-2004, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:

Why Milo, you planning on starting something? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I am getting real sick of this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Now who is this Milo you say I am? Your ex-sweetyheart? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Harrasment is a banning offence. Next time a message is sent off to a Moderator.

Loco-S
04-16-2004, 11:04 PM
http://users.aol.com/dheitm8612/claims.htm
Luftwaffe Scoring System and Awards System


The major difference between the German and Western Allies' method of scoring victories was that the Germans were not allowed to share a victory. Their cardinal rule was: "One pilot-one kill." In contrast Allied pilots were allowed to share victories. If two pilots fired at an enemy and it went down, each Allied pilot received one-half of the kill. Carried to absurdity, it is conceivable that an Allied pilot could become an ace with ten or more half-victories, never scoring any victories of his own! The Luftwaffe system of awarding victories was impartial, inflexible, and far less prone to error than the American or British method. That is not to say that errors were not made, history shows that both sides during the "Battle of Britain" tended to overclaim victories on a scale of 2:1.

The German's recorded victories in one of three categories: Abschuss (Destroyed), Herausschuss (Seperation), and endgueltige Vernichtung (Final Destruction.) These three categories were used for assessing "points" towards awards. Only an enemy aircraft in an Abschuss was counted towards the pilot's overall victory tally. A pilot that brought down and enemy plane with a Endgueltige Vernichtung or Final Destruction of a damaged aircraft was not awarded credit for the "kill", however he did earn "points" for the aircraft's destruction.


Luftwaffe Points Scoring System

Aircraft-type:

Abschuss
(Destroyed)

Herausschuss
(Seperation)

Endgueltige Vernichtung
(Final Destruction)

Single-engined fighter

1

0

0

Twin-engined bomber

2

1

1/2

Four-engined bomber

3

2

1


The system recognized the fact that achieving a Herausschuss, that is, damaging a bomber enough to force it from its combat box, or "pulk" (as the Germans called it), was a more difficult task than the final destruction of a damaged straggler. The emphasis of the German fighter arm, the Jagdwaffe, was that of intercepting the Allied bombers. Dogfighting with Allied fighters was to be avoided if possible in favor of attacking the bomber stream when one was present. Decorations were awarded after the following point totals had been reached:


German Awards System

Iron Cross Second Class

1

Iron Cross First Class

3

Honor Cup

10

German Cross

20

Knight's Cross

40


The point system existed for the purpose of award qualification only. "Victory claims" and "points" were two distinct statistics. The requirements for the verification of victory claims remained unchanged; only the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) could confirm a claim, and this proceedure could take more than a year. The practice of claiming "Herausschuss" (seperations) died out in 1944 and many "seperation" claims were eventually awarded as "victories"; occassionally claims by other pilots were allowed for the "final destruction" of the same aircraft. This system led to a claims duplication by a factor of as much as two.

Back To Index_

_______________________________________________
Luftwaffe Claims Confirmation Proceedure

As noted on the Luftwaffe Scoring and Awards System page, "victory claims" and "points" were two seperate issues. Whenever an Abschuss (Destruction) of an enemy aircraft was claimed a strict proceedure was followed before the claim was allowed.

Following the policy of "one pilot-one kill", the investigating authorities would determine if the claiming pilot was solely responsible for the destruction of the enemy plane. Every Abschuss had to be observed by a witness: either a ground observer or the encounter, the pilot's wingman, or a Staffelmate. Witnesses were necessary unless the victor's aircraft had been fitted with a gun-camera and the destruction of the plane or the vanquished pilot's bailout had been recorded on film, if the wreckage of the downed pilot or other crew crew member had been captured by German forces. In effect: No witness or tangible evidence - no victory.

Every Abschuss had to be confirmed by the Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe or Commander in Chief of the Air Force. Jagdwaffe pilots were at all times required to note their geographical position as well as the type and number of the aircraft in enemy formations engaged. Naturally, the victor was required to log the exact time of a kill, while he maneuvered for a tactical advantage over the remaining enemy aircraft! In addition, he had to observe other actions in the air in order to be able to witness victories by his Staffelmates. Upon landing, the claimant prepared his Abschuss report for review by the immediate supervisory officer, who either endorsed or rejected the claim. If endorsed, the pilot's report to the Geschwaderstab, or Wing Staff, which, in turn, filed its report and sent both to the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM), or Air Ministry. After checking all the papers that were submitted, the official confirmation was prepared and sent to the unit. This very long bureaucratic proceedure sometimes took as long as a year! During 1944, another authority was created: the Abschusskommission, which received all reports on crashed aircraft remains found by search units. This commission checked conflicting claims between antiaircraft batteries and fighter pilots, and awarded credit for the victory to one claimant or the other. This system ensured that no more credits would be awarded than wrecks found.

The German system of confirming aerial victories was very effective in keeping human errors and weknesses within limits. Despite this, the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe, or Luftwaffe High Command, considered the large victory totals during the early days of the Russian campaign as incredulous. On many occasions, they accused the Jagdgeschwader Kommodores of exaggerating the victory scores. In effect Goering was calling the frontline pilots liars. This was one of the grievances that brought about the Mutiny of the Fighters, or the Kommodores' Revolt Conference, in Berlin during January, 1945.

When a German fighter pilot scored a victory, he would call "Horrido" on the radio. This distinctive announcement of victory alerted his fellow pilots to watch for a crash or a flamer, as well as notify ground stations, which helped to confirm many victories.

Back To Index
________________________________________________
Typical Luftwaffe Victory Claim Report

(English Version)


auf Deutsch (in German)



Copy

1./JG No.26

Base of Operations on 23.6.1941

Victory Report
1. Time (day, hour, minute) and area of victory: 23.6.1941 8:50PM Hour, 5 Km northeast of Calais
2. Name of victor: Oblt. Gottlob
3. Type of plane shot down: Spitfire
4. Nationality of victim: England
Serial No. or other markings: Cockard
5. How was it destroyed:
a) Flame with dark smoke, flame with light smoke (cloud of smoke)
b) Single part shot (which parts) Body and wings
c) Was it forced to land (which side of the Front, good or crash landing)
d) If he crossed the lines did you still attack
6. How did victim crash (must be seen by victor)
a) This side or other side of front
b) Did it crash or crash-land or explode: (in water)
c) If did not see crash, why not?
7. What happened to crew (dead, bail out or not see.)
8. Combat Report is attached.
9. Witnesses:
a) air:
b) ground:
10. How often attacked enemy plane: 1 attack
11. From which direction were the attacks: from rear
12. Range when shooting: 70 ft.
13. From which position was attack started: from rear below
14. Were the pilots wounded: -/-
15. Type of Ammunition: P.m.k.v.,Sm.K.L. Spur v. Br. Spr. Gr. M. Muni Va.m.Muni 06.
16. Ammunition used: 300 shots M.G. and 110 shots cannon
17. Type and number of weapons used: 2 MG and 2 cannon
18. Type of airplane used: Me 109E7
19. Added technical remarks: -/-
20. Was your plane hit: no.
21. Were you assisted (including Flak)

Signed


Back To Claims Proceedure
_______________________________________________
Typical Luftwaffe Combat Report
(English Version)


auf Deutsch (in German)



Copy

Gottlob, Oblt.

Base of Operation, on 23.6.1941

1./JG No. 26

Combat Report

Start:

20.11 hours (8:11 PM)

Mission:

Alarmstart (Scramble)

Landed:

21.04 hours (9:04 PM)

I flew as the protection Rotte of our Staffel, as our Saffelkapitaen engaged a Spitfire. Then I saw that three other Spitfires tried to get behind the Staffel. I engaged them with my Rotte. The Spitfires went into a tight turn. I turned also and climbed above them. I saw one Spitfire flying in a northwesterly direction. The Spitfire was over land at 19, 680 feet altitude. I flew behind him at a range of about 70 feet and the pilot did not take evasive action.

I fired all guns from the rear and below. I saw a lot of smoke and parts falling from his fuselage and wings. The plane climbed and slowed and rolled over the left wing. It rolled 2 or 3 times. Then the Spitfire dived down. I dived after it and fired again. I pulled out of my dive and gained altititude. I turned into a bank and saw the Spitfire hit the water.

The pilot did not emerge from his plane.

Gottlob


Back To Claims Proceedure
________________________________________________

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif
Armis Bela, non venenis geri

Loco-S
04-16-2004, 11:24 PM
Daballz, Please refer to the following links, I dont care if you believe on them or not, History is not fiction:

LOL, lots of stuff to read http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/hart/hart.asp

http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_blakeslee.html

http://www.jcs-group.com/military/usaaf/hethel2.html

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/jg27bookextractjw_1.htm



http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/claims.htm

http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlesww2luftwaffe.htm

http://www.acepilots.com/german/ger_aces.html

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/pilots_day/W_Nowotny.html

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/vol2.htm

http://webpages.charter.net/92sentai/7jg77scoring.htm

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/Dieppe.htm

http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~fredrik/cuda/Scenarios/bob/bob.html

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/action.htm

http://www.franka.clara.net/History3.htm

http://www.78thfightergroup.com/history/78thFGassncheckerboard.html

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/falck.html

http://www.battleofbritain.net/0033.html

http://www.usaaf.net/ww2/night/nightpg7.htm

http://intellit.muskingum.edu/uk_folder/ukwwii_folder/ukwwiiultra_folder/ukwwiiultrabu-c.html

http://www.history.navy.mil/avh-vol2/Appen4.pdf

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif
Armis Bela, non venenis geri

Ruy Horta
04-17-2004, 12:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hop2002:
The Jagdwaffe alone (ie just the fighter squadrons) claimed 1,998 single engined fighters during the BoB, the British lost around 900 single engined fighters to all causes on operations, including those lost on the ground and to bomber's defensive guns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True that the accepted combat figure for RAF fighters lost in combat is around 600. That leads to overclaiming for the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.

This has been accepted, but its not THE smoking gun, its just a single campaign with its particular circumstances.

Now those who accept German claims on face value are naive, but those who take one campaign and its variables as indiciative for the whole war are just as narrow minded.

Once you fight over enemy territory you remove one important variable - the counting of wrecks.

Near the front line you still have plenty of ground witnesses, but in deep in enemy territory or over sea you loose much of this.

I've just finished reading "The Luftwaffe Fighters' Battle of Britain", "The Luftwaffe Bombers' Battle of Britain" and "Luftwaffe Fighter-Bombers over Britain". Its interesting to compare the first two with the last title (all by Chris Goss btw). The numbers don't lie. The Luftwaffe overclaimed during the BoB, period. Compare however the dry loss figures of the first title with a more in depth title as Mason's "Battle over Britain" and you suddenly see additional RAF losses. The gap becomes less, once you start counting (heavy) combat damage and losses which are operational in nature, but non combat. In the later title there are occasions of up to 6:1 RAF overclaim.

Now should I start using that 6:1 example as my benchmark?

You can of course find such examples for most combattants, and that's the great equalizer. What you need is to take wide sample and make sure the result is not anomalous. Only now can you start comparing with the other AFs.

It alsways struck me that the RAF for example had a relatively high over claim rate over home turf during that same Battle of Britain.

Also that the RAF claims almost all of the German losses during the campaign in the West, something that makes our French neighbors frown (and rightly so).

I'm not pushing numbers since it will proof nothing and lead to a lot of discussion. It remains a simple fact that 60 years of hard research, also by debunkers, has not lead to conclusive evidence the germans being more prone to overclaiming that the other western combattants. To continue on that line of thought (if you'd take a rough modifier of 1/3 like so many like to do) would mean that the Luftwaffe still ends up with a big number of "aces", but many a western ace in a day and single digit aces will wither away.

That's an undertaking that few will make.

That's why the debunkers always stop while they are "winning", and unfortunately for them that's not at the finish line.

PS
Do "I" believe in all the German claims?

Absolutely not, but I start looking at all claims, regardless of the claimant in a similar way.

Ruy Horta

[This message was edited by rhorta on Fri April 16 2004 at 11:54 PM.]

konstantinl1
04-17-2004, 03:17 AM
It's my opinion that over claiming was rampent. Just take a modern example like Kosovo. OK there wasn't much air to air fighting, but the number of tanks and armoured vehicles claimed destroyed by pilots equipped with the most modern equipment in the world (FLIR etc) was 10x higher than the reality on the ground.

Pilots claimed hundreds of tanks destroyed but only a small number of tanks were actually found to be destroyed after the war.

If overclaiming is happening in the modern era with todays technologly as regards fairly large slow moving or stationary ground objects surely it must have been prevailent 60 years ago with fast moving, agile aircraft?

I've read many examples of dogfights when each side claimed 10 or 12 enemy shoot down when in fact both sides flew home without casualties.

I don't doubt for a moment that German pilots had the largest kill scores of the war, but what I do doubt are they numbers of kills.

We all like definite answers but the list of aces and scores we have today are a guideline at best. They didn't know then for sure and we certainly don't know for sure 60 years later.

S77th-brooks
04-17-2004, 03:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack_UA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boandlgramer:
the RAF claimed for the latter half of 1941 the destruction of 731 german fighters. in fact the true cost to the luftwaffe western based jagdgeschwader was just 103 fighters .
thats more than 700% overclaiming 7 to 1 .

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Care to cite the source?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> try here for that http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/wutzgalland/wutzgalland.htm and yours???

DaBallz
04-17-2004, 04:41 AM
I have never heard of an Axis plane with a gun camera.
American fighters did have gun cameras.
The much hated P-51 had one, and P-47s.
Kill confirmation was a whole lot easier with
a gun camera?

How about the AVG/Flying Tigers? They required
a confirmed wreck. No wreck or no pay.
Pretty tight system eh?

no, I don't believe Hartmanns score any more
than I believe the inflated scores of bomber
crews over Europe.
Hartmann got kills, so did bomber gunners.

Hartman was the perfect propaganda tool. Blond hair
blue eyes, the perfect Aryan superman. I am not
trying to start a race war here, but the facts
are that the NAZI's whole ideology was around
the concept of the Aryan superiority.
Hartman was very good, there is no doubt about it.
That he really got all those kills.... Fantastic in the literal sense.

Da...

dahdah
04-17-2004, 05:08 AM
Now DaBallz, how were those films taken of B-17s and B-24s being attacked? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The Fw190 used a BSK 16 gun camara.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This was mounted just outboard of the gun alignment sighting tube on the port wing (1.4m from the CL).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have never heard of an Axis plane with a gun camera.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you have now.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Kill confirmation was a whole lot easier with a gun camera?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only if it showed the pilot bailing out or the a/c exploding.

Lav69
04-17-2004, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madsarmy:
Everybody run! Fire in the hole.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LoL.

_______________
I'm fixin to.

Ruy Horta
04-17-2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
I have never heard of an Axis plane with a gun camera.

Hartman was the perfect propaganda tool. Blond hair
blue eyes, the perfect Aryan superman. I am not
trying to start a race war here, but the facts
are that the NAZI's whole ideology was around
the concept of the Aryan superiority.
Hartman was very good, there is no doubt about it.
That he really got all those kills.... Fantastic in the literal sense.

Da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both items show how little you actually know about the subject. You are just reaching and trying to get some points. Keep fishing Balsey, maybe you'll catch something.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

Ruy Horta

Heavy_Weather
04-17-2004, 12:08 PM
JimmyJazz' post says it all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

clover4
04-17-2004, 12:32 PM
In large part on the eastern front, the differences can be attributed to one man: Joseph Stalin, who approached all Russian military problems with one concept: more! More planes, more pilots, and when they got shot down, even more planes and more pilots. Poorly trained, flying mediocre aircraft, the brave Russian pilots didn't have much of a chance.
Also important is the type of air warfare that the Soviets waged. They focused on ground support, on the tank-killing Il-2 Sturmoviks. And they were very successful. But the Sturmoviks, while deadly against German tanks, were no match for Bf 109s and Fw 190s.

To point out another very basic difference between German and Allied combat philosophy. While the Allies tended to hunt in packs and compete vigorously for kills, the Germans, at least in North Africa, tended to let the best pilots "have at it" while the novices would tend to sit back and watch the show.
This is one reason the loss of an asset like Hans-Joachin Marseille was so devastating to the Luftwaffe in Africa. The men of Marseille's squadron were so devastated by his death that the entire I Gruppe ceased to function as a combat unit and was subsequently withdrawn from combat operations for a period of almost one month. That kind of emotional destruction would not likely occur in Allied squadrons.

Their are probably a 1001 more contributing factors to give the correct answer to the original post.

Red_Storm
04-17-2004, 01:22 PM
Great informative posts Loco-S! Thanks!

JG52Schatten
04-17-2004, 01:24 PM
Taken from "Germany's Mother of Aces" by Jon Guttman as published by World War II Magazine in Sept.2002

-----------------------------------------------
JG.52's phenomenal success---even by Luftwaffe standards---has stimulated its share of
explanatory theories. Western observers have attributed the fantastic scores of the German
Experten to the propaganda of a totalitarian state, or to the inferiority of the Luftwaffe's
Soviet opponents. The first claim was refuted by the professionalism with which the
Luftwaffe tallied its scores and the later release of Soviet loss records, which disputed
their claims by a factor of no more than 10 percent. As for the quality of the opposition,
Soviet aircraft were indeed outdated and their aircrews inexperienced when Operation
Barbarossa began in June 1941, but by 1943 both the aircraft and the pilots had improved
considerably. Yet many of JG.52's greatest pilots began their scoring at that time---Batz,
for example, did not gain his first victory until March 11, 1943. Hartmann's first
unassisted victory occurred on January 27, 1943, but, significantly, he had already flown 90
missions before getting into his stride.

The key to JG.52's success lay in the unique circumstances in which it found itself. It was
fighting a tactical war over the Russian steppes, seldom more than half an hour from the
front lines. Its pilots flew anywhere from three to seven missions a day, against enemies
who were generally doing the same. As a result, aerial engagements did not take the form of
one-time clashes, as were usually experienced by British and American pilots flying missions
across the English Channel, but of constant sprawling melees that littered the battlefields
below with wreckage from both sides.

Contrary to the popular film image, however, not every aerial success resulted in an enemy
plane going down in flames or exploding in midair. On the Eastern Front, close proximity to
the lines and relatively flat ground on which to land also gave the pilots of a great many
crippled aircraft, both German and Russian, opportunities to crash-land so that they---and
sometimes their reparable aircraft---could fight another day. That factor had much to do
with both the survival and success of JG.52's pilots, for they were by no means invincible,
and they were among the first to admit that their Soviet opponents could be formidable.
Barkhorn survived being shot down nine times. Walter Krupinski, Hartmann's mentor and victor
over 197 Allied planes, estimated that he crashed about a dozen times.

That leads to another factor in the German fighter pilots' unique set of circumstances. On
other fronts, pilots who had been shot down---including Germans---were entitled to a period
of rest and recuperation. On the Eastern Front, nobody, least of all the increasingly
outnumbered Germans, could afford such a luxury. Given such constant activity, members of
JG.52 accumulated a wealth of experience that was reflected in escalating scores---provided
combat fatigue or the law of averages did not catch up with them, as they inevitably did for
many of the wing's members. Between September 1941 and October 1943, Heinz "Johnny" Schmidt
rose from enlisted man to a captain and scored 173 victories, only to be shot down and
killed on October 29. And for every ace, scores of JG.52 pilots died before they could gain
that necessary level of combat savvy.

To the unique foundation of terrain, opportunity and experience that characterized JG.52's
war may be added the relationship between pilot and plane, which in the tight confines of an
Me-109 could be intimate indeed. Finally, one cannot discount the importance of two
remaining factors over which JG.52's most elite pilots had no control, but which they seem
to have possessed in abundance: talent and luck.
-----------------------------------------------

I'd say that a disputed factor of 10% or less is pretty accurate.

Funny, everyone wants to argue that Hartmann(352), Barkhorn(301), Rall(275), etc. couldn't have shot down that many planes each. But you never hear anyone disputing that Rudel couldn't have possibly destroyed more than 500 tanks with a Stuka.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Again, if they had not done so, then why did Russia so badly want to imprison them for so long (and in some cases, execute them) after the war? As someone beautifully put it earlier... what kind of war crimes can a fighter pilot commit (besides attacking civilians)?

Oh, and I wouldn't say that Russian aircraft were inferior towards the end of the war. Quite contrary. The pilots may not have been the best trained perhaps, but the machinery was quite excellent. Same goes for Germany. As Hartmann once commented, towards the end of the war Germany got in such a rush to resupply pilot losses, that the average replacement pilot was getting younger and more poorly trained all the time. Now this was quite the opposite regarding British and American pilots. They were getting better all the time.

Oh, and that was true about under-manned Russian aircraft. The Russians would shoot their own men on the spot if they didn't go and run into the Germans' guns. (There's a good historical portrayal of this throughout "Enemy At The Gates". The main reason for this was that the Russians COULD NOT afford to let ANY pressure off of the Germans. If they had done so, the Germans would've surely advanced and retaken whatever ground that the Russians had fought so hard to capture previously. I'm not justifying it by any means. Just saying that was their reason. I feel so sorry for those men that faced that situation.)
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.myezboard.com/projects/ezboard/ezboard_userimages/membersofthejg52ndbutcherbirds/images/SchattenSig.jpg
JG52 The Butcherbirds (http://www.geocities.com/jg52thebutcherbirds/)

hop2002
04-17-2004, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>True that the accepted combat figure for RAF fighters lost in combat is around 600. That leads to overclaiming for the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.

This has been accepted, but its not THE smoking gun, its just a single campaign with its particular circumstances.

Now those who accept German claims on face value are naive, but those who take one campaign and its variables as indiciative for the whole war are just as narrow minded.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was only responding to some particular posts on the BoB.

In fact, I thought my reference to Galland, having only 1 kill turned down until the end of the BoB, but another 5 in 1941 when the Germans were frequently fighting over friendly territory, showed that I was drawing conclusions only about the BoB.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It alsways struck me that the RAF for example had a relatively high over claim rate over home turf during that same Battle of Britain.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought it was a fairly low, but it depends how you define "claims".

The RAF confirmed about 2,500 kills, iirc, including anti aircraft command. The Germans lost around 1,800, including accidents (again iirc)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do "I" believe in all the German claims?

Absolutely not, but I start looking at all claims, regardless of the claimant in a similar way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Claimant, or claimant's airforce?

If we accept that not over friendly territory, the Luftwaffe's claims procedure was not accurate (on average about 3 times over), what about certain individuals with very high claims?

In particular, Marseille. How many of his kills were confirmed from wreckage?

If the German claims procedure could be out, a pilot like Marseille, who the Germans invested a lot of propoganda in, and who was under tremendous pressure to keep scoring, could be more out than average.

I don't believe the German claim procedure was any worse, although there are plenty here who will tell you the German procedure was close to perfect. Isegrim, for example, asserted some time ago that claims during the BoB were only confirmed after recce aircraft were sent out to photograph the wreckage of each crash site. (He wouldn't answer what happened about aircraft shot down over the channel)

I also think that if "true" figures could ever be worked out (and they obviously can't be) that the Germans would still have the most aces, and the highest scoring aces.

But I think the propoganda value Germany got out of individual ace scores, and the star status they confered on the highest scoring aces, probably led to most of those high scorers overclaiming more than most.

huggy87
04-17-2004, 04:17 PM
Loco-s,
You seem to have a lot of knowledge on links around the internet. Maybe you can help me out with figuring out which had the most kills, P-38 or Hellcat.

Here is the link to the thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=934105443&r=613101943#613101943

Thanks, Huggy

My apologies for being o/t of this thread

dahdah
04-17-2004, 07:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe the German claim procedure was any worse, although there are plenty here who will tell you the German procedure was close to perfect. Isegrim, for example, asserted some time ago that claims during the BoB were only confirmed after recce aircraft were sent out to photograph the wreckage of each crash site. (He wouldn't answer what happened about aircraft shot down over the channel)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This can't be a serious statement. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Recce a/c had better objectives (manufacturing plants, airfields, troop concentrations, defences, raid damage assessment, etc, etc, .....) to spy on than to fly willy-nilly around the countryside looking for crashed a/c to photograph for kill confirmation. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Whatsmypassword
04-17-2004, 10:35 PM
Did Luftwaffe pilots cook their "victories" or not is a mystery but their end is not mystery at all.

http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/blacksea/tiv_29.jpg


Russian pilots before the Victory Parade on June 24, 1945.

http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/photoalbum/pilots_gss.jpg

FW190fan
04-17-2004, 10:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dahdah:
I am getting real sick of this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Now who is this Milo you say I am? Your ex-sweetyheart? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oops, sorry - I forgot you wanted to be called dahdah instead of Milo now.

All apologies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

Loco-S
04-17-2004, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
I have never heard of an Axis plane with a gun camera.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can buy a DVD of German gun camera footage, (cool stuff) here:

http://www.historicaviation.com/historicaviation/product_info.po?ID=7672

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://www.historicaviation.com/historicaviation/Image.po?pn=00V8678&size=large



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Hartman was the perfect propaganda tool. Blond hair
blue eyes, the perfect Aryan superman. I am not
trying to start a race war here, but the facts
are that the NAZI's whole ideology was around
the concept of the Aryan superiority.
Hartman was very good, there is no doubt about it.
That he really got all those kills.... Fantastic in the literal sense.

Da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He He...Hartmann was not a member of the nazi party...he he, If not he would not have been allowed to train NATO pilots on the new Luftwaffe...... and later in civilian life would join the FAA along with managing several flying schools in the Wurttemberg area...interesting dont you think?

Even the Simon Wiesenthal Foundation agree...they are Jewish you know?....why a Jewish would recognize a "nazi" pilot?....'cos he was not nazi...

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t029/t02905.html

or the Russian (soviet)government verified and accepted his claims.....and put him in prison for 15 years, due to "false" and "suspicious" claims?...of course.....

http://english.pravda.ru/society/2002/12/13/40785.html

but of course you dont believe it..he he http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif


hey...no one is perfect....

Oops I forgot, here is a list of his kills...

http://home.tiscali.nl/adsl446606/Harmann's%20victories.pdf

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif
Armis Bela, non venenis geri

[This message was edited by Loco-S on Sat April 17 2004 at 10:26 PM.]

[This message was edited by Loco-S on Sat April 17 2004 at 10:36 PM.]

Ruy Horta
04-18-2004, 02:24 AM
Hop you make some good points, but that doesn't mean we agree.

First I dislike to use any artificial modifier, like your persistant devide by three rule, especially since there is enough material available on the Western front to enable a serious enthusiast to dig deeper - almost on the individual level.

Now a point you make, with others and this one keeps coming back, is the so called "Nazi-propaganda factor". The pilot in the center of attention being able to get easier credit for his claims.

First there is a difference between the propaganda effect, as in initial newspaper coverage claiming plus 200 bombers shot down during the first Augsburg-Regensburg mission, and the final military accessment of having shot down 60 bombers.

200 is propaganda
60 is a military statistic

Yes, I do think that Marseille, Graf or Hartmann (fill in many an Experten) had an easier time getting their claims approved. But I do not believe that this advantage was any different to that of Johnny (E.) Johnson, Douglas Bader, Richard Bong, Davis McCampbell, Ivan Kozhedub or Alexander Pokryshkin etc etc etc

The propaganda value of Aces is universal, not only "Nazi". The machinery of propaganda is just as universal and understands the inspiring effect of having a hero as an example.

According to Mike Spick's "The Ace Factor" (leaning on a studing by American analyst Herbert Weiss), 95% of the kills are made by only 5% of the pilots - the so-called Ace Factor.

This leads to the conclusion that these few men had a far higher probability of actually having shot down an a/c than the rest.

Taking your "average modifier" chances would be that if unit A claimed 3 a/c shot down, One of which by the Ace, the rest by "unknowns", statistically the Ace would hold the trump when it came to actual having shot down that single a/c.

The Ace appears to be statistically more entitled to his claims and by a very wide margin.

One item that is often neglected.

To understand what these German pilots did (regardless of total numbers of kills) one must look at how often many of them were forced down doing it. Its clear that in order to get such a tally they survived losing the fight more once.

These Experten had the rare opportunity to play again (and again...)!

So if there are universal factors.
1. propaganda value
2. ace factor
3. opportunity

There are also specific variables.
1. the claims system
2. the tactical circumstances
3. the AF doctrine

IMHO many of these variables favor the Experten

Only the specifics need some explanation, since the universal variables are clear:

1. One claim - one kill
Favors the big name over the unknown one, although this is actually universal, since the Luftwaffe did not recognise partial kills it has more impact on the total scores.

2. tactical situation
For much of the war, Germany was on the defensive, hence they had the advantage of fighting on home turf, or at worst fighting near the front line. Even if shot down their pilots still had a good chance of fighting again another day.

3. AF Doctrine
Marseille is a prime example how the Germans used the "Ace" as the team's forward, using a football term. The whole squadron worked to set up kills for the one who was best at doing so. Having no partial recognition strengthened the accruel of kills on account of the Experten. This wasn't a unique situation, in the Jagdwaffe the Experten held a central role. Although this lead to high score Experten it undermined the development of new pilots.

Opportunity is a universal factor, but it deserves a specific explanation. No opportunity, means no kills, many opportunities can lead to many kills.

Now we all know one thing - the Experten had no lack of opportunity. Although the Luftwaffe did at times take men out of combat, this wasn't comparable to the regular rotation system of the Western Allies.

Since they faced both the Western Allies and the Soviets on four fronts (incl. Reich) they had what we call a "target rich enviorment".

Personally I'll stick to comparing figures only if I have them from both sides. And if a pattern seems to emerge for a campaign , limit any conclusions to said campaign.

====

Ah, as for Whatsmypassword making a simple yet undeniable point. What did all these Experten achieve?

Nothing, in the end Germany lost, but at what cost?

Statistically behind those 5 HSU-holders stand 95 unkown Soviet fighter pilots, think about that.

Ruy Horta

MiloshMorai
04-18-2004, 05:38 AM
Edit: ... Oh dear, was that a line I stepped over...

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Sun April 18 2004 at 05:50 AM.]

Tully__
04-18-2004, 06:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dahdah:
I am getting real sick of this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Now who is this Milo you say I am? Your ex-sweetyheart? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oops, sorry - I forgot you wanted to be called dahdah instead of Milo now.

All apologies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a rule against harassment http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)

Salut
Tully

FW190fan
04-18-2004, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:


There's a rule against harassment http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Tully<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Gee Tully, is there a rule against apologies as well?

How about a rule against repeatedly calling someone a "nazi lover" like Milo did in the post above that was mysteriously edited?

Does that fit into your definition of harassment as well or do I need to go back and read the forum rules again?

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

horseback
04-18-2004, 01:05 PM
There have been a number of interesting & valid observations in this thread, but one difference between the Germans and the Allies needs a bit more emphasis; the hunter/star system, or as rhorta brilliantly (no sarcasm here) decribed it, using the experten as forwards are used in soccer.

The American comparison would be using them as shooting guards in basketball, or going to a 'hot' receiver or running back in the NFL. We could compare a Hartmann to a Jerry Rice or a Kobe Bryant (I don't follow soccer, so I can't cite a similarly gifted soccer player), being used to advance the ball or score. A wonderful analogy.

By contrast, the Allies in the West used a 'team' concept, similar to a pressing defense in basketball, or maybe Dean Smith's great North Carolina teams (I might have used Duke for an example, if I could spell the coach's name), which produced plenty of great players (Michael Jordan, for instance), but allowed no 'stars'. They would go to the 'open man' rather than feed the star players the ball.

I'm not saying that British and American aces weren't as good, I'm saying that they played in a different system, and got nothing like comparable opportunities.

We're not talking apples and oranges here, we're talking apples and grapes.

This was a matter of necessity for both sides. The British and Americans had to travel a long way to enter combat from late '42 onwards, they had the advantage of numbers and there would be a great deal of difficulty involved with setting up kills for a star, when contact with the enemy could not be predictable. Therefore, they usually (at least the successful units) gave the lead to the elements who spotted the enemy first, in an offensive sweep, or set the repulse or prevention of attacks on the bombers as the team goal in the escort role. This led to an emphasis on overall quality, rather than trying to find and polish the 'gems'. Individual kills (or maybe victories; forcing an enemy a/c from the field, or taking him off the board without actually destroying a machine could often meet the Allied mission requirements) were much more of a matter of being in the right place at the right time for the Allies' pilots than the Germans'.

The German 'star system,' however, resulted in something very like Michael Jordan's early years with the Bulls; they'd feed him the ball, he scored a lot of points, and the Bulls were always eliminated from the playoffs early.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

clint-ruin
04-18-2004, 02:50 PM
Good analogy from Horseback.

Another factor is in the type of missions flown - if I understand correctly, the allies didn't have a great deal of emphasis on free-hunting, at least, from the top down. Same as any other service - the goal of any service personel is to achieve the greater strategic war aims of the country they're serving. The goal of every soldier is not -necessarily- to run around and massacre as many opposing troops as possible. Acts of bravery and skill get medals but they don't necessarily do any good towards winning the war. Tuskegee Airmen pilots weren't anywhere near the scores of the axis pilots, but I don't think anyone could argue that they were ineffective at the missions they were assigned. Pilots being rotated back to training schools prevented them from getting hundreds of kills, but it helped to raise the level of competance of every pilot who got the benefit of their experience.

Hartmans three hundred and fifty two kills ultimately resulted in this:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/the-end.jpg

Hmm - I can't help but think that didn't actually work out too well, 352 kills or not.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

huggy87
04-18-2004, 03:20 PM
Not to add more fuel to the fire, but...

Did the U.S. fighters, as a whole, considerably outscore their british/commonwealth counterparts?

This is by no means a criticism of them. The Spitfire, Tempest, and Mosquito were superb. Their aircrew were at least as good as the Americans. However, the american aircraft had considerably more range. I imagine from 42' on as the Germans shifted to a defensive strategy, the Americans saw more combat as a whole. They could take the bombers deep into France and Germany, while the British day fighters had not even half the legs. Is this assumption wrong?

PraetorHonoris
04-18-2004, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:

Hartmans three hundred and fifty two kills ultimately resulted in this:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/the-end.jpg

Hmm - I can't help but think that didn't actually work out too well, 352 kills or not.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hartmann is surely not responsible for faked Sowjet propaganda photo shots... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just a question: Why do you think the rotation system was a more important reason for the low scores of allied pilots than their far superior number was.
If there are 20 Mustangs attacking 1 Me109 there is one kill for one US pilot, but the German pilot had to shoot down more, if he wantet to survive. (only few actually did survive.)

"Wir tragen die goldgelben Spiegel am Rock,
im Herzen die Treu' und die Ehre,
die Liebe zum Volk und den Glauben an Gott,
den Willen zur Waffe und Wehre."

dahdah
04-18-2004, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:

Hartmans three hundred and fifty two kills ultimately resulted in this:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/the-end.jpg

Hmm - I can't help but think that didn't actually work out too well, 352 kills or not.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hartmann is surely not responsible for faked Sowjet propaganda photo shots... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was clint-ruin's post a little too deep for you? Hartmann could have had 3520 kills and the result still would have been the same, the Soviet flag still flying over Berlin and other parts of eastern Germany.


Huggy, yes the 2cd TAF did not have the same exposure to LW a/c as did the 8thAF. Being more an a2g airforce would reduce the exposure to LW a/c.

PraetorHonoris
04-18-2004, 04:04 PM
Don't you understand a little joke, dahdah... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

"Wir tragen die goldgelben Spiegel am Rock,
im Herzen die Treu' und die Ehre,
die Liebe zum Volk und den Glauben an Gott,
den Willen zur Waffe und Wehre."

ELITE1499
04-18-2004, 04:10 PM
Very similar were all the prayers which the Cossacks wrote down and concealed under their shirts, tying them to the strings of the litle ikons blessed by their mothers and to the little bundles of their native earth. But death came upon all alike, upon those who wrote down the prayers also. Their bodies rotted on the fields of Galicia and East Prussia, in the Carpathians and Rumania, wherever the ruddy flames of war flickered and the tracks of Cossack horses were imprinted in the earth.

clint-ruin
04-18-2004, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
Hartmann is surely not responsible for faked Sowjet propaganda photo shots... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe :&gt;

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Just a question: Why do you think the rotation system was a more important reason for the low scores of allied pilots than their far superior number was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because they can't actually get any kills at all if they're not physically present in the theatre to score them. Having superior numbers of pilots obviously increases the distribution of kills among more pilots too. Fairly predictable statistics..

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

PraetorHonoris
04-18-2004, 04:20 PM
and when they were physically present, there were a lot other pilots... that leads to the point of the superior number.

At least you understand my little joke... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Wir tragen die goldgelben Spiegel am Rock,
im Herzen die Treu' und die Ehre,
die Liebe zum Volk und den Glauben an Gott,
den Willen zur Waffe und Wehre."

ELITE1499
04-18-2004, 04:20 PM
Tear the collar of your last shirt at your throat, dear heart! Tear the hair of your head, thin with your joyless, heavy life; bite your lips till the blood comes; wring your work-scarred hands and beat yourself against the floor on the threshold of your empty hut! No good will ever come.

ELITE1499
04-18-2004, 04:23 PM
Wo3 men2 de4 sheng1 ming4 dou1 bu2 hui4 hao3 de1.

BerkshireHunt
04-18-2004, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by huggy87:
Not to add more fuel to the fire, but...

Did the U.S. fighters, as a whole, considerably outscore their british/commonwealth counterparts?

This is by no means a criticism of them. The Spitfire, Tempest, and Mosquito were superb. Their aircrew were at least as good as the Americans. However, the american aircraft had considerably more range. I imagine from 42' on as the Germans shifted to a defensive strategy, the Americans saw more combat as a whole. They could take the bombers deep into France and Germany, while the British day fighters had not even half the legs. Is this assumption wrong?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you'll find that while US long range escort fighters were engaging the Luftwaffe over Germany RAF fighters were simultaneously escorting medium range bombers over northern France and the low countries- diversionary attacks were necessary to keep JG2 'Richthofen' and JG26 'Schlageter' busy (the two resident units in France). If this had not been done US formations would have been harried continually the moment they overflew the English Channel- and their escorts' guns might have been emptied before they got to Germany.
Each daylight mission was very complicated in terms of the timing of diversionary raids on the inward and outward leg and while it is probably true to say that in 1943 US units saw more contact with the Luftwaffe the RAF still got its share over France.
With the advent of D Day and the transfer of RAF units to France the longer range of the American fighters became somewhat immaterial and the contact opportunities were levelled up.

JG14_Josf
04-18-2004, 04:44 PM
Imagine a situation where you (the person wondering if the kill numbers of the German Aces were "serious") are standing face to face with a German Ace.

Use your imagination and consider the possiblities.

Now read some books like:

Blond Night of Germany (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830681892/qid=1082327416/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5689235-1999349?v=glance&s=books)
Gunter Rall (http://isbn.nu/0971553300)
Schnaufer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0752416901/qid=1082327850/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5689235-1999349?v=glance&s=books)
Fighter General (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962551902/qid=1082327899/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5689235-1999349?v=glance&s=books)
The War Diary of Helmut Lipfert (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0887404464/qid=1082327943/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5689235-1999349?v=glance&s=books)
Heinz Knoke (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0304366382/qid=1082328004/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5689235-1999349?v=glance&s=books)
Hermann Buchner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1902109007/qid=1082328053/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/102-5689235-1999349?v=glance&s=books)
Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0816857903/qid=1082328197/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-5689235-1999349?v=glance&s=books)

Perhaps after reading some of the words written by the German Aces or the words written by the people who interviewed the German aces the question may be less ambiguous.

If you do have an opportunity to meet any of those people who survived combat in WWII you may find them to be credible, honest, and honorable people at least deserving some consideration.

Oh I forgot one book that should definitely be included in that list:

Johannes Steinhoff (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895267667/qid=1082328700/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5689235-1999349?v=glance&s=books)

[This message was edited by JG14_Josf on Sun April 18 2004 at 03:52 PM.]

huggy87
04-18-2004, 07:01 PM
Which of those books are actually autobiographies? I prefer them to Biographies.

JG14_Josf
04-18-2004, 08:43 PM
I also prefer the Autobiographies.

I believe Heinz Knoke and Hermann Buchner wrote their Autobiographies and Helmut Lipfert was assited with his Autobiography by Werner Girbig.
Gunther Rall authorized his Biography.

Adolf Galland writes this on the Acknowledgements page in the book Fighter General:
"Many opportunities and offers came to me through the decades for the preparation of an offical, authorized biography. None of these proved appropriate or timely, until my friends Colonel Raymond F. Toliver and Trevor "Sailor" Constable proposed this biography to me several years ago. All the necessary elements were present at this time."

Johannes Steinhoff's book: 'Voices of the Third Reich' is not an Aviation book. It is a look at what WWII was like from the eyes of people living in Germany at that time.

My point is that people are involved in this business of keeping score. Real people living real lives in conditions that most of us have no capacity to conceptualize.

Reading thier words, or even hearing their words personally can help someone form an educated opinion concerning what thier history was like, but even so; that is a far cry from personal understanding.

What is the opinion of their peers? What is the opinion on this subject of the people who actually flew against the German pilots? People who share a similar experience. People who are in a possition to know a little bit more than most of us as to what is most likely the real deal.

Consider that these guys did live after the war and if these scores were nothing more than inflated claims then this fact would have been fleshed out, that if these guys were in fact frauds then they would be exposed as such.

I don't think that you will find many of these people considering their tallies as anything more than an unfortunate consequence of war.

Ask yourself if a B-17 pilot bombing Dresden considered the people being bombed as numbers on his kill stick? Didn't they simply count the number of missions. If, and this was a big if, they managed to make it to 25 misions then they, as far as I can understand, considered their obligation to be fulfilled. Their duty was done.

How can we, people who have not faced what they have faced, even begin to question their integrity.

To me; killing is abhorrent. These people are brutal killers. How do you reconcile that fact with this petty concern of numbers.

Please excuse my rant.

Whatsmypassword
04-18-2004, 11:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG14_Josf:

To me; killing is abhorrent. These people are brutal killers. How do you reconcile that fact with this petty concern of numbers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah. Nazis bombed lots of civil targets in the Soviet Russia including towns and villages. Somebody here admires Rudel (who was in fact a convinced Nazi) & Co but he and his collegues did commit these crimes flying their Ju-87 & 88. Hartmann was no better.

http://www.sovsibir.ru/dynamic/cnews/imagelib/135/163/102.jpg

http://www.9151394.ru/projects/gum/moscow_60/9/reb.jpg

I read somewhere in the memoirs of Russian fighter pilots about fighting over Leningrad during the blockade of 1941-42. Transport planes that delivered provisions to Leningrad on their way back took children and elders who boarded the planes before the fighter pilots' eyes at the same airfileds. No surprize that escort fighters defended fiercely these planes that for Luftwaffe pilots meant just more points for a two-engine plane.

http://www4.colgate.edu/scene//may1997/images/21e-big.jpg

JG14_Josf
04-19-2004, 03:02 AM
Please excuse my error. I posted words in a hurry and did not consider the precise meaning with enough care to communicate effectively.

I wrote 'These people are brutal killers' which is literally correct but missing an important understanding that I feel a need to clarify.

A better sentence to describe my intended viewpoint would be 'These people killed other people in a brutal manner'

I am not of the opinion that a profesional soldier is akin to a mass murderer.

My point or viewpoint is that killing is beyond my comprehension. Therefore I cannot judge others in this regard.

How about this analogy:

A mass murderer would not be invited to baby sit my kids, however, I know one War veteran in particular who killed other people in a brutal manner and he is most welcome in my home with my children and his integrity is beyond reproach, certainly beyond my capacity to judge. A higher power is his judge.

For me to make any claims concerning the integrity of any War Veteran is ridiculous.

Thanks for not closing this thread before I had a chance to clarify my earlier lack of care in writing.

hop2002
04-19-2004, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hop you make some good points, but that doesn't mean we agree.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's ok. As they say, it would be a boring world if we all agreed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>First I dislike to use any artificial modifier, like your persistant devide by three rule, especially since there is enough material available on the Western front to enable a serious enthusiast to dig deeper - almost on the individual level.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm aware of some of the information available. It seems to me there is actually more availabe, or at least more information that is fairly easily available, than there used to be even a few years ago.

Someone on one of the other boards I belong to (a general military history and current affairs board) is investigating Luftwaffe kills at the moment, I think he's going to focus on Marseille.

I don't mean to insist on a divide by three rule. I'd say it's a fair representation of the BoB, nothing more.

I think the difference is you probably get a lot of people doubting the Luftwaffe claims, and so believe it's necessary to stress they were no less accurate than most others, and better than some.

From my position, of hanging around flight sim boards too long, there is a perception, particulary on these boards, that the Luftwaffe claims are not only the most accurate of any AF, they are actually almost completely accurate.

I stress the overclaiming in the BoB only as evidence that the Luftwaffe did sometimes overclaim, and that their scores are not necessarily 100% accurate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now a point you make, with others and this one keeps coming back, is the so called "Nazi-propaganda factor". The pilot in the center of attention being able to get easier credit for his claims.

First there is a difference between the propaganda effect, as in initial newspaper coverage claiming plus 200 bombers shot down during the first Augsburg-Regensburg mission, and the final military accessment of having shot down 60 bombers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I accept that, but was Marseille credited with more kills in the German press than his actual military record shows? I thought not, but it's not something I've ever looked into, so I can't say.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, I do think that Marseille, Graf or Hartmann (fill in many an Experten) had an easier time getting their claims approved. But I do not believe that this advantage was any different to that of Johnny (E.) Johnson, Douglas Bader, Richard Bong, Davis McCampbell, Ivan Kozhedub or Alexander Pokryshkin etc etc etc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't speak for the US or USSR, but the RAF in particular were very reluctant to promote individual aces, at least in the early part of the war.

You also have the difference in the awards system, with the RAF giving medals for particular acts or sustained periods of outstanding service, and the Luftwaffe awarding honours based mainly (exclusively?) on the number of enemy aircraft destroyed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One item that is often neglected.

To understand what these German pilots did (regardless of total numbers of kills) one must look at how often many of them were forced down doing it. Its clear that in order to get such a tally they survived losing the fight more once.

These Experten had the rare opportunity to play again (and again...)!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I accept that. There are very good reasons why the Luftwaffe had the highest scoring aces. Their pilots typically flew more combat sorties, encountered the enemy far more often, and usually fought over friendly territory, or close to it.

All those factors suggest the higest scoring aces should belong to the Luftwaffe, and I firmly believe they did.

As I said, my perception of the points that need to be made are coloured by the company I keep. Trying to argue with someone who says every Luftwaffe kill in the BoB was confirmed by recce flights, or by people who claim the discrepancy between the 2000 kills the Jagdwaffe claimed and the 900 aircraft the RAF lost to all causes is caused by the RAF not admitting a loss if they could recover a single component from a crashed aircraft, makes you approach the problem from a differnet angle.

JG52Schatten
04-19-2004, 06:12 PM
[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Nazis bombed lots of civil targets in the Soviet Russia including towns and villages. Somebody here admires Rudel (who was in fact a convinced Nazi) & Co but he and his collegues did commit these crimes flying their Ju-87 & 88. Hartmann was no better.
[/QUOTE]

I may have overlooked something here... As far as I recall, I'm the only one to have mentioned Rudel. And it sounds like you are attacking me. Go back if you don't believe me and look, but NO WHERE did I say that I was an admirer of his! I simply pointed out the fact that no-one seems to have any problem accepting that he destroyed 519 tanks in comparison to Hartmann's, Barkhorn's and Rall's air victories.

(I really am trying my best not to start a flame war here...)
I disagree with you comparing men like Hartmann and Rall to those who went out of their way to attack civilians. I think that if you read more interviews and auto/biographies of Hartmann and Rall, you would be surprised at their level of integrity / honor / character.
Also, convicted Nazi war criminals wouldn't have been called back to duty in the New German Air Force and risen through the system to become generals, NATO leaders, aircraft manufacturing consultants, etc. So why then did they? Because they WEREN'T Nazi war criminals! They were soldiers doing their duty while serving their country. Nowhere have I ever heard or read that Hartmann & Rall knowingly attacked a civilian or civilian target.

If you're saying that Hartmann & Rall were no better than Rudel for having sent other military men to their deaths, so be it. But know this, on the flip-side of that same coin, you are also saying that ANY SOLDIER... who ever pulled a trigger, threw a grenade, used a knife, dropped a bomb, fired a cannon, whatever.... that sent another man to his death... is no better... Allied OR Axis.

And as far as civilians getting killed during war goes, yes this is most unfortunate, but it is a sad fact about war. When it is done deliberately (not to destroy a military or industrial target) it is truly a war crime. When it's an accident, it's an accident. Horrific all the same, but an accident.

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Loco-S
04-20-2004, 11:38 PM
yeah, everybody is a saint,either stalin killing 21 million of their own, or hitler killing 6 million plus jewish people, or Theodore Roosevelt, who authorized the fire bombing of Japanese cities ( civilian targets with Napalm) which incidentally killed more non combatant civilians in 2 months than the whole civilian population killed in Europe in WW2 by comparison, check here some numbers.....
and the civilians killed must have been guilty of something, or uncle sam would not have bombed them........ have you ever seen footage of a canister of M69 napalm bomblets?, is dropped from a plane, the 6-lb napalm bomb (AN-M69) used a hexagonal body with a bright red band around it. The fuse was mounted in the head, the incendiary mixture (napalm) in the middle, and the tail consisted of a metallic ribbon that unfolded as the bomb was dropped and stabilized its fall. The bombs were loaded in cassette carriers carrying 14, 38 or 60 of these small bombs. When the bomb hit its target the napalm incendiary mixture sprayed out of the tail assembly and could cover an area of up to 230 square meters with droplets as well as sections of igniter that set off the napalm....there is no way to put off a napalm fire, it burns and burns and burns....now imagine that on your head, hands, arms...the victims of napalm can be divided into four basic classes. Some are completely burned and die immediately of the heat. 35 percent of the people in the proximity of the site of napalm explosion die within half an hour. Of the survivors, 50-55 percent die within 40 days of shock, poisoning, or different complications. The survivors, 10-15 percent, require significant medical attention.

10 MARCH 1945

JAPAN
(This is the opening of a program of night fire raids directed against the Japanese civilian population. This death toll is the highest of any single day's action during the war.)

(Mission 40) Before dawn, 279 of 325 B-29's dispatched from the XXI BC, 73rd, 313th and 314th BW's attack Tokyo urban areas with 1,665 tons of incendiary bombs from between 4,900ft and 9,200ft. Twenty other B-29's attack alternate targets. Fifteen square miles of the Tokyo urban area is burned out; 267,171 buildings are destroyed, estimated 83,793 Japanese are killed and 40,918 wounded. Fourteen B-29's are lost.

11 MARCH 1945

JAPAN

(Mission 41) During the night of 11-12 March, 285 of 310 XXI BC B-29's dispatched attack the Nagoya urban area with incendiary bombs at altitudes from 5,100 to 8,500ft destroying 2.05 square miles; and six B-29's attack a secondary target. One B-29 is lost.


13 MARCH 1945

JAPAN

(Mission 42) During the night of 13-14 March, shortly after 2400 hours local, 274 of 301 XXI BC B-29's dispatched attack Osaka with incendiary bombs at altitudes between 5,000ft and 9,600ft. Because of 8/10 cloud cover over the target area, bombing is by radar. An area of 8.1 square miles in the heart of the city is burned out. Five B-29's attack other targets. B-29's claim 1-0-0 Japanese aircraft. Two B-29's are lost.(During three hours of bombing, 134,744 houses are destroyed, 1,363 houses damaged and Japanese casualties are 12,451 dead, 678 missing.)

MARCH 1945

JAPAN

(Mission 43) During the night of 16-17 March, in the heaviest raid to date, 307 of 330 B-29's dispatched from units of the XXI BC attack the Kobe urban area with incendiary bombs at altitudes between 5,000ft and 9,000ft. The attack lasts 2 hours and 8 minutes and approximately 2.9 square miles or about 20% of the city's area is destroyed. Three B-29's attack other targets.

B-29 crews see 314 enemy aircraft which make a total of 93 individual attacks. The AAF claims 1-0-? Japanese aircraft. Three B-29's are lost, none to fighters. Almost 500 industrial buildings are destroyed and 162 are damaged; 65,951 homes are lost leaving 242,468 civilians homeless. Casualties are 2,669 dead or missing and 11,289 injured.)

18 MARCH 1945

JAPAN

(Mission 44) During the night of 18-19 March, 290 of 313 B-29's dispatched from units of the XXI BC attack the Nagoya urban area with incendiary bombs at altitudes between 4,500ft and 9,000ft for the second time in as many weeks. An additional 3 square miles are burned including the Nagoya Arsenal, Aichi Aircraft Engine Plant and freight yards. The Mitsubishi plant escape with minor damage. One B-29 is lost.

check around, no body is a saint during a war, not even the winner.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif
Armis Bela, non venenis geri

huggy87
04-21-2004, 12:05 AM
Two words: TOTAL WAR

Let us just hope we never see total war again between developed countries, the weapons are just too powerful now.

LEXX_Luthor
04-21-2004, 03:36 AM
The higher the score, the more worthless the pilot cos he/she should be training Newbies.


__________________
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"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
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:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-21-2004, 03:52 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
When you are killed in it war is allways total!

Sensei.

http://users.skynet.be/sb314718/images/haddock.gif

King_Curtis
04-21-2004, 05:40 AM
Ei ELITE 1499!
Wo de zhong wen bu hao de. Ying wen shuo shenme?

Zyzbot
04-21-2004, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..., or Theodore Roosevelt, who authorized the fire bombing of Japanese cities ( civilian targets with Napalm) which incidentally killed more non combatant civilians in 2 months than the whole civilian population killed in Europe in WW2 by comparison, check here some numbers.....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong ROOSEVELT....it was Franklin.

Skalgrim
04-21-2004, 11:33 AM
hartmann claim was probable very accurate

he has fight only eastfront, only 15min flightime to combat zone average

many time over own areal or not far away,

only at low altitude compare westfront, so that he and his wingman, can easy observe where go the defeat plane down

and he had shoot distance 50m or less,

this distance was the plane most destroy
(wing cut, burning, explode),

so know certain it was kill

[This message was edited by Skalgrim on Wed April 21 2004 at 11:00 AM.]

JG52Schatten
04-21-2004, 02:02 PM
Rgrt. I think Loco-S meant FDR & not Teddy.

TY Loco-S. Point made very well. Atrocities were committed by nearly all sides. But those who won the war often were not prosecuted. *sadly, it is still a fact about war*

"The higher the score, the more worthless the pilot cos he/she should be training Newbies."---LEXX_Luthor

LEXX,
Hartmann, as well as the other top scoring aces, DID train their fair share of rookies. That was part of their jobs. So your comment has no bearing. If you should study how the Luftwaffe operated, you would learn (and know this) and would probably be surprised at how effecient the Luftwaffe operated. You're reasoning is propably that if they had trained more "Newbies" then there would've been alot more "Aces". The reality is that the war was so fierce that many rookies didn't stay in the air long enough (live) to become aces. For whatever reasons... lucky shot by Allied pilot, met with Allied ace, made careless mistake, flak, etc., etc. etc. Some did and were even killed later. There are VERY FEW pilots that survived careers that spanned from the beginning of the war to the end.
Also, think about your statement, how does keeping the most experienced combat leader out of combat make any sense? To only send out those with very little, if no experience what-so-ever, would only get them killed twice as fast, if not faster. Often Hartmann (or whichever ace) would have his "student" as a wingman and would teach him via the radio. BTW, Hartmann NEVER lost a wingman. Not even one.
On some occassions they would have a group of students observe a particular battle from a safe distance while listening to the participating pilots on the radio.



Well, I grow weary with all the "debates" and history lessons. I shall take a long rest and leave you with this quoted excerpt (I wish I could remember where I heard / read it):
"Everyone wants everything to be black and white. Unfortunately... guess what... other colors exist! No-one is 100% good or evil. No-one can be 100% blame-free. Hidden agendas lie just underneath the surface of everything you will ever do or encounter. That's human nature. That's life. Get used to it and get real."

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DaBallz
04-21-2004, 05:07 PM
Why does every thread seem to break down into
war crimes and atrocities?

I can't help but notice the axis defenders brisitle
at the mear mention that the German pilots scores may be inflated.
They Were.
In a free society propaganda is of less value
than a close one.
In a free scoiety propaganda is dangerous to the
goverment for one very good reason.
You will get caught.
Germany had a track record ov claiming success
while in retreat, claiming victory in failure,
and generally trying it's best to fool the population
into believing the war was going well.
The big names had to keep scoring while alive.
Rudel had to bust 500 tanks (no I don't believe that either).
And the blond knight had to be the top scorer.

I might add two points. #1 is I do believe
the German pilots did in fact run up high
scores and probibly did have the highest kill scores.
#2 is that you might find the German propaganda score
of 200 bombers over Schwinefurt is more accurate
than the 60 officially shot down.
Why you might ask???? Because over 200 bombers were
damaged so badly only their parts flew again.
I believe the total written off was around 180.

As I said, Hartmann was very good, and I have
no doubt the Third Reich had some great fighter pilots.
But the big picture of NAZI propaganda should
help filter the results.

Da...

Snow_Wolf_
04-21-2004, 08:17 PM
I didn't read through 6 page of this Thread

I Just want to know how does the German airforce credit a pilot for shooting down someone (Aka the paper work and how is it credit). and secondly how is there system different then that of the allies or the Russians or even the IJAAF or IJNAF

http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~jtsiekki/mono2.gif

Bewolf
04-22-2004, 12:37 AM
allies OR russians?

funny http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

wayno7777
04-22-2004, 09:29 AM
According to various books I've read most of the scores are reasonable. Luftwaffe records are spotty due to many being destroyed. The same occured in the Pacific theater with Japanese and Chinese scores. The Germans probably had the strictest confirmation system.
If two or more pilots claimed a victory most times it was credited to neither, rather just to the unit. The Japanese usually only gave credit to the unit and not the indiviual.

Wir greifen an!
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-wayno77.jpg

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

wayno7777
04-22-2004, 09:29 AM
According to various books I've read most of the scores are reasonable. Luftwaffe records are spotty due to many being destroyed. The same occured in the Pacific theater with Japanese and Chinese scores. The Germans probably had the strictest confirmation system.
If two or more pilots claimed a victory most times it was credited to neither, rather just to the unit. The Japanese usually only gave credit to the unit and not the indiviual.

Wir greifen an!
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-wayno77.jpg

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

LilHorse
04-22-2004, 12:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loco-Shttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gifr Theodore Roosevelt, who authorized the fire bombing of Japanese cities ( civilian targets with Napalm) which incidentally killed more non combatant civilians in 2 months than the whole civilian population killed in Europe in WW2 by comparison, check here some numbers.....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As pointed out it was FDR who gave such orders. But, I also question the above claim. Can you clarify that? Do you mean civilians killed in bombing raids? Or killed in a two month period? You have to remember that nearly 20 million Soviet civilians were killed on the Eastern front alone. Bad as any American firebombings against the Japanese might have been they in no way came close to the numbers of civilians killed in Europe by all causes of the war.

I believe that the approximate number of German Civilians killed in bombing raids by the Western allies was around 360,000. They destroyed Germany's top 50 largest cities. This was where strategic bombing truly developed and it was simply carried over to Japanese cities. I wouldn't be surprised if the casualty figures for Japan were higher for strategic bombing. With the use of incendiaries and mostly wood and paper construction of houses, the resulting firestorms must have been terrible. But those numbers don't come anywhere near to the civilian deaths in Europe as a whole. Gruesome to make the comparason but true non the less.

Cossack_UA
04-22-2004, 02:27 PM
No matter how bad the allied bombings of German cities were, German civilians didn't suffer much compared to others.

Most highest figure of German civilian casualties is about 2 million. Compare this to 19-20 million of Soviet civilian casualties.

Soviet civilians suffered pretty much the whole 5 years. German civilians began to experience war fully only in 1944. I've read planty of memoirs of German soldiers and all of them describe their trips home on leave as a strange feeling of going from chaos of the battlefield to peasefull German cities.

And lastly, German civilians got help immidiately after capitulation. Allied nations sent tons of food and supplies. Soviets civilians had rely on themselves only. Every third child in 1945 was an orphan.

horseback
04-22-2004, 06:42 PM
Good point Cossack_UA. But we should remember that almost all of Germany was plowed up in pretty intense ground combat during the winter of '44-5, and it was, and is, a much smaller country. There was a conscious effort by the Allies to punish the German people for the atrocities of the Hitler regime, and they were pretty thorough. A great deal of Germany and Austria resembled a moonscape once the smoke cleared.

By contrast, much of the Soviet Union was bypassed (or never reached) by ground combat, and the German bombers' reach beyond their own lines was negligible. The urban centers took a pasting, but it was my impression (colored, admittedly, by Cold War bias) that much of the countryside was relatively untouched, bypassed by ground combat units, and that the 20 million figure was for total lives lost, including military casualties and purges of suspected unreliables. I have also heard that the propagandists folded the Ukrainian famines of the mid-30s into the figure as well as throwing in the losses of Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians (who were swallowed up by the Soviet Empire along with eastern Poland in concert with Germany in 1939) who may or may not have resisted the Soviet troops 'liberating' them from the Germans.

Things were pretty rough throughout Europe for the next couple of years immediately following the war, and the reason the Soviet Union didn't get the same level of assistance from the Americas was the Cold War. Had Stalin been a little more cagey, and bided his time, a lot of the post-war suffering in the old Eastern Bloc could have been avoided.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Cossack_UA
04-22-2004, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
By contrast, much of the Soviet Union was bypassed (or never reached) by ground combat, and the German bombers' reach beyond their own lines was negligible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't make me laugh! Germans used the policy of "burned land" so much they hated slavs and of frustration they can't beat them.

As to the casualties. The highest estimat of civilian (non combat) casualties that i've encountered in Western literature is 19-20 million.

You will find different figures from different sources ranging from unrealistic 10 million to 20 million CIVILIAN casualties.

Soviet propaganda did not publish realistic figures till 70s or so. But people knew their losses first hand.

Loco-S
04-22-2004, 11:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Cossack_UA posted 22-04-04 19:33

Don't make me laugh! Germans used the policy of "burned land" so much they hated slavs and of frustration they can't beat them.

As to the casualties. The highest estimat of civilian (non combat) casualties that i've encountered in Western literature is 19-20 million.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im sorry, I confused Franklin with Theodore....oldtimers disease, ..but if Im correct, Stalin was the one who ordered the burned land in front of the German troops so they could not get any supplies while soviet troops retreated.....
Of the of 50 million soviets dead: 20 million were lawful combatants (soldiers), 23 million were civilians targetted indirectly and who knows, victims of friendly fire too...Politruks? shells and bullets dont make distinction between friend and foe... and 7 million were civilians deliberatly slaughtered by stalin in the Gulags, and or hitler in death camps. same fate, similar psychos.

Ever heard of the gulag? Many current estimates reveal that Stalin was responsible for the murders of as many as 30 million of his own people


regarding civilian casualties, Japan lost by July 1945 400,000 dead and 500,000 injured on the napalm bombings....destroyed 2.5 million homes and left 9 million japanese civilians homeless..
this numbers do not include victims of Hiroshima and nagasaki.

the damage made to Tokio (56.3 square miles burned to nothing) and Osaka (16.4 square miles) nearly equaled to the total damage made to all German cities put together by the end of WW2....

japanese troops were no boy scouts either, in 1942 after the Doolitle raid executed every man, woman and children in southern china as "reprisal"...250,000 civilians killed "by hand"

The worst part in any war is that the civilians pay cash for their government assets, and have been and always will be victims caught in the middle of two stupid armies.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif
Armis Bela, non venenis geri

wayno7777
04-24-2004, 01:31 PM
A couple more good reads on the subject:
The Few by P. Kaplan & R. Collier w/intro by
Peter Townsend and The Greatest Aces by Edward
H. Sims.

P.s. The Mammoth Book of Fighter Pilots

Wir greifen an!
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-wayno77.jpg

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Kurfurst__
04-24-2004, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hop2002:
Claimant, or claimant's airforce?

If we accept that not over friendly territory, the Luftwaffe's claims procedure was not accurate (on average about 3 times over), what about certain individuals with very high claims? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still do not get why you cant make a distinction between individual claism of pilots, and the number of claims actually being accepted by the airforce? LW pilots can make just as many more claism as other, this was never the issue, or the point. The point always was the LW had stict rules so only the valid claims should be accepted for the pilots, the rest were turned down, and most aviation historians agree that the LW`s confirmation system was rather accurate. In the RAF, one lone pilot could claim he shot down five bombers and had some chance those being accepted. In the LW, the same guy didnt have at least a witness, they didnt even bother to invastigate his claim, let alone accept it! A more rigourous confirmation procedure will provide greater accuracy, no doubt of this. Never 100% of course, such system doesnt exist even nowadays - even the most advanced jets happily bomb down entire UN convoys in stupid mistakes... Similiar system, or apparatus, never exited in either the USAAF, or the RAF. Fact.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I don't believe the German claim procedure was any worse, although there are plenty here who will tell you the German procedure was close to perfect. Isegrim, for example, asserted some time ago that claims during the BoB were only confirmed after recce aircraft were sent out to photograph the wreckage of each crash site. (He wouldn't answer what happened about aircraft shot down over the channel)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would really love to see such a qoute from Isegrim, Hop. But something tells me you will fail to provide this.. I say there`s a fair chance you just made up this part completely on your own.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/fat-furred%20tigerB.jpg

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

Ruy Horta
04-25-2004, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
#2 is that you might find the German propaganda score
of 200 bombers over Schwinefurt is more accurate
than the 60 officially shot down.
Why you might ask???? Because over 200 bombers were
damaged so badly only their parts flew again.
I believe the total written off was around 180.

As I said, Hartmann was very good, and I have
no doubt the Third Reich had some great fighter pilots.
But the big picture of NAZI propaganda should
help filter the results.

Da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This post is contradictory in content.

We must filter German claims because of the character of Nazi propaganda, thus in fact making allowance for intrinsic overclaiming.

That c.60 bombers were shot down and littered occupied territory is a fact - c.60 wrecks, the write offs although interesting from a historical point of view were not claimed by the Luftwaffe, period.

Now you tell us that military statistics were lower than the more accurate Nazi claim? As in 60 verified claims versus 200 initial claims, but the latter figure being closer to the total loss in terms of write offs?

You confuse me?

Shouldn't the Military statistic, being part of the NAZI regime, be the same as the Nazi claim?

Being all good Nazis shouldn't those 200 so kills been awared to the pilots, one or two getting an instant Knight's Cross to boot?

Make one or two of these Arian Knights Experten in a Day would serve to give the HJ wannabee LW pilots hope?

Why limit yourself to the wrecks?

Ruy Horta