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TheBrokenCrow
02-28-2017, 01:34 PM
Now, before people come here expecting another "NERF PLZ" hear me out. this is for all of you who say the Orochi is "overpowered" and for the ones thinking of nerfing the orochi.

I'm an Orochi main I have played him in tech test 2, 3 and the open beta all the way up until now, i like his move set, how he plays and his appearance overall. Now people are saying he is overpowered for 2 main reasons, The first is the obvious, his speed. if you go by frame data he isn't actually that fast (for some weird reason he actually slows down to shugoki speed) and most of his moves (With experience that is) are very easy to parry because the animations are obvious. The second is his ability to do a lot of damage after a GB. Let's take a quick look at how the Orochi or i specifically get guard breaks, Parry -> Perfect GB -> damage. That is a risk reward system in place, if i fail that parry i will most of the time loose half of my health. That is balanced, that is fair. The Orochi capitalizes off of your mistakes and punishes accordingly. What people can't seem to realize is that if an orochi makes a mistake they get punished hard. An Orochi is not an aggressive character and if you die to an aggressive an Orochi it's for one of two reasons, you are new to the game and don't fully understand the mechanics or you lack the experience to deal with it. I'm not the best Orochi but i can tell you this, at higher tiers of play in 1v1 and 2v2 i have to rely on countering, i cannot be offensive or i will get stomped.

Now i can feel the "This roach is just protecting his main to save his kd" stuff already coming, lets take a look at ways you can beat an Orochi.

The best way in my opinion is a literal endurance test, you wait for them to make a mistake without doing anything, they make a mistake, you parry, do a combo and repeat.
The second, Distance, put distance between you and him/ her, wait for the dashing top light, parry, punish.

As you can see a lot of the stuff i'm saying related to parries for the simple reason at higher tiers naked GB will just get teched, spamming attacks will get you punished and a lack of patience will get you killed. This game is not a hack and slash, if it's planning on going competitive which supposedly it is, understanding the fundamental mechanics, frame data and good reads will be the name of the game.

Let's take a look at reading your opponent. What is a read? Well, every player has a pattern, some more obvious then others. you see the pattern, you read it like a book to see what they are going to do next, you punish accordingly. How do you actually figure out and realize patterns? experience. if you play this game casually there is a good chance you will get stomped, go to the forums, complain for a nerf, ruin a balanced character (Not just talking orochi here) and screw the game over. If you actually sit there for an 1-3 hours and do some research and figure out a way of working around a character that usually destroys you, you won't ruin the game due to complaints, you won't get stomped as often and you'll have more fun with the game.

For me the two classes that used to destroy me was the warden and the conqueror, The 50/50 mix ups always got me, i did some research, looked into frame data and found out that i can stop a warden dead in his/ her tracks with a top light attack (or if i think i won't land it i double tap the dodge to roll away to safety), that removes and counters the mix up making the warden nearly a lamb to slaughter. Same thing for the conqueror, the shield bash spam always gets me, so i stop in the same way i stop the warden, only difference is with the conq i need to read my opponents bash pattern to get the correct timing for the attack. (yes a good conq used to give me problems, good or highly skilled conqs are some of the strongest character in the game and some of the best in my opinion, they have very little to work with yet what they have is enough to bring down a formidable opponent if used correctly)

A lot of the characters, hell all of them are actually pretty "balanced" if you know how to fight them. Time, patience, experience and knowledge is all you need. One of the other characters that people complain a lot about (minus the warden) is the peacekeeper, the reason is the recovery time between her attacks is too fast. does that mean she is unkillable? no it means she will beat you 70% of the time with one button. (For some general Tech test 2 knowledge, this is the same reason why i among others actually considered the Valkyrie very very strong. Her attacks back then combined with the recovery time in-between said attacks made her unstoppable, you literally couldn't react fast enough plus the split second between changing guards to defend yourself, once you were in the loop, you couldn't escape, a true vortex. )

The things i haven't covered in this is "yomi layers" and conditioning. I'll save that for another post if people want more knowledge on how to be a better player and play with mindgames among other things.

Sieger300
02-28-2017, 02:07 PM
Now, before people come here expecting another "NERF PLZ" hear me out. this is for all of you who say the Orochi is "overpowered" and for the ones thinking of nerfing the orochi.

I'm an Orochi main I have played him in tech test 2, 3 and the open beta all the way up until now, i like his move set, how he plays and his appearance overall. Now people are saying he is overpowered for 2 main reasons, The first is the obvious, his speed. if you go by frame data he isn't actually that fast (for some weird reason he actually slows down to shugoki speed) and most of his moves (With experience that is) are very easy to parry because the animations are obvious. The second is his ability to do a lot of damage after a GB. Let's take a quick look at how the Orochi or i specifically get guard breaks, Parry -> Perfect GB -> damage. That is a risk reward system in place, if i fail that parry i will most of the time loose half of my health. That is balanced, that is fair. The Orochi capitalizes off of your mistakes and punishes accordingly. What people can't seem to realize is that if an orochi makes a mistake they get punished hard. An Orochi is not an aggressive character and if you die to an aggressive an Orochi it's for one of two reasons, you are new to the game and don't fully understand the mechanics or you lack the experience to deal with it. I'm not the best Orochi but i can tell you this, at higher tiers of play in 1v1 and 2v2 i have to rely on countering, i cannot be offensive or i will get stomped.

Now i can feel the "This roach is just protecting his main to save his kd" stuff already coming, lets take a look at ways you can beat an Orochi.

The best way in my opinion is a literal endurance test, you wait for them to make a mistake without doing anything, they make a mistake, you parry, do a combo and repeat.
The second, Distance, put distance between you and him/ her, wait for the dashing top light, parry, punish.

As you can see a lot of the stuff i'm saying related to parries for the simple reason at higher tiers naked GB will just get teched, spamming attacks will get you punished and a lack of patience will get you killed. This game is not a hack and slash, if it's planning on going competitive which supposedly it is, understanding the fundamental mechanics, frame data and good reads will be the name of the game.

Let's take a look at reading your opponent. What is a read? Well, every player has a pattern, some more obvious then others. you see the pattern, you read it like a book to see what they are going to do next, you punish accordingly. How do you actually figure out and realize patterns? experience. if you play this game casually there is a good chance you will get stomped, go to the forums, complain for a nerf, ruin a balanced character (Not just talking orochi here) and screw the game over. If you actually sit there for an 1-3 hours and do some research and figure out a way of working around a character that usually destroys you, you won't ruin the game due to complaints, you won't get stomped as often and you'll have more fun with the game.

For me the two classes that used to destroy me was the warden and the conqueror, The 50/50 mix ups always got me, i did some research, looked into frame data and found out that i can stop a warden dead in his/ her tracks with a top light attack (or if i think i won't land it i double tap the dodge to roll away to safety), that removes and counters the mix up making the warden nearly a lamb to slaughter. Same thing for the conqueror, the shield bash spam always gets me, so i stop in the same way i stop the warden, only difference is with the conq i need to read my opponents bash pattern to get the correct timing for the attack. (yes a good conq used to give me problems, good or highly skilled conqs are some of the strongest character in the game and some of the best in my opinion, they have very little to work with yet what they have is enough to bring down a formidable opponent if used correctly)

A lot of the characters, hell all of them are actually pretty "balanced" if you know how to fight them. Time, patience, experience and knowledge is all you need. One of the other characters that people complain a lot about (minus the warden) is the peacekeeper, the reason is the recovery time between her attacks is too fast. does that mean she is unkillable? no it means she will beat you 70% of the time with one button. (For some general Tech test 2 knowledge, this is the same reason why i among others actually considered the Valkyrie very very strong. Her attacks back then combined with the recovery time in-between said attacks made her unstoppable, you literally couldn't react fast enough plus the split second between changing guards to defend yourself, once you were in the loop, you couldn't escape, a true vortex. )

The things i haven't covered in this is "yomi layers" and conditioning. I'll save that for another post if people want more knowledge on how to be a better player and play with mindgames among other things.
im not really going to read all of that stuff. But how can you call something balanced if you havent played another hero? Try berserker for an example for a few days. Then make another quote how orochi is balanced. He is strong,not op. But theres heroes that weak,so it cant be balanced,right? Its either all weak,or all strong = balance

TheBrokenCrow
02-28-2017, 02:16 PM
Sure, I have a rep 1 lawbringer and valk because people said they were way too weak, i proved them otherwise/ I shouldn't need to do a berserker for the simple reason to be a good berserker you need to be astonishingly good at feins, mind games and cancels, I've had my *** handed too me plenty of times by pretty damn good berserkers but sure, if i need to i will go through and rep a berserker, record it all and share my thoughts on it. Sadly the one or the other "All strong or all weak" is stupid, no offence meant but expecting that from the game when it only launched afew weeks ago is not too smart. As i stated in the above post, time, experience and knowledge, like any other fighting game. So sure, i'll go play the beserker for a few, I've seen so many people play him wrong it hurts, too many people relying on the dodge attacks to start a combo. I will agree however he is the weakest assassin out of the three BUT only in inexperienced hands.

And of course as expected you more then likely got too the "I'm an orochi main" part and noped out. Thats one of the issues with this community, if you take the time to ACTUALLY RESEARCH and read through you'll realize why i say what i say.

Sieger300
02-28-2017, 02:29 PM
Sure, I have a rep 1 lawbringer and valk because people said they were way too weak, i proved them otherwise/ I shouldn't need to do a berserker for the simple reason to be a good berserker you need to be astonishingly good at feins, mind games and cancels, I've had my *** handed too me plenty of times by pretty damn good berserkers but sure, if i need to i will go through and rep a berserker, record it all and share my thoughts on it. Sadly the one or the other "All strong or all weak" is stupid, no offence meant but expecting that from the game when it only launched afew weeks ago is not too smart. As i stated in the above post, time, experience and knowledge, like any other fighting game. So sure, i'll go play the beserker for a few, I've seen so many people play him wrong it hurts, too many people relying on the dodge attacks to start a combo. I will agree however he is the weakest assassin out of the three BUT only in inexperienced hands.

And of course as expected you more then likely got too the "I'm an orochi main" part and noped out. Thats one of the issues with this community, if you take the time to ACTUALLY RESEARCH and read through you'll realize why i say what i say.

im maining berserker,but im not saying hes unplayable. Im saying hes just worst then orochi overall. I have 75% duel w/r with but, i can find an rep 5 orochi and lose 3/0 to him. Then i switch to my level 13 oro and go 3/0 in mirror.
I never claimed it should be perfect balanced right now. It will come eventually, at least i hope. But all strong/weak is defenition of balance. How can that be stupid beyond me.
So dont cry about someone saying oro is op. He is to some heroes. Top light = 37 damage. If thats not good,idk what is

Sieger300
02-28-2017, 02:30 PM
for me to get ~40 damage with berseker i have to parry/gb into wall top r2. So thats kinda not fair,doesnt? But im fine. Im playing my hero that describes me. And i am able to compete with all. Pk tho

Sieger300
02-28-2017, 02:32 PM
and oro zone is second best in the game.

TheBrokenCrow
02-28-2017, 02:40 PM
im maining berserker,but im not saying hes unplayable. Im saying hes just worst then orochi overall. I have 75% duel w/r with but, i can find an rep 5 orochi and lose 3/0 to him. Then i switch to my level 13 oro and go 3/0 in mirror.
I never claimed it should be perfect balanced right now. It will come eventually, at least i hope. But all strong/weak is defenition of balance. How can that be stupid beyond me.
So dont cry about someone saying oro is op. He is to some heroes. Top light = 37 damage. If thats not good,idk what is

The stupid part is people expecting it to be a thing already, Some (like you) know thats not a thing yet, i read your post wrong since being an orochi main i'm expecting mostly a storm of hate and arguments that consist of "you weeb, your bad and only play the orochi because it's over powered" But yeah you are correct, the orochi is strong but has next to nothing to use minus GB> top light > area or GB into top heavy. Apart from that it relies on parries which is a pure risk reward system. The 37 damage from a top light is good, in fact it's a little too good, that is something i had an issue with in the beta's even making a post saying that it needs a damage reduction. I am however curious though, How do you play the berserker?

(Also, i'm not crying, i'm looking for an actual argument about why he is overpowered, i see too many "plz nerf" posts when i know that if they nerf him he will be one of the weakest classes in the game)

TheBrokenCrow
02-28-2017, 02:41 PM
and oro zone is second best in the game.

Just saying it's the third, warden, oro and god forbid the damn pk area cancel, that thing gives me shivers.

Panzer_Cmndr
02-28-2017, 02:44 PM
Orochi is OP, just is what it is. But to be honest, most of the Asian classes are OP, which is why so many migrate to them.

Sieger300
02-28-2017, 02:49 PM
The stupid part is people expecting it to be a thing already, Some (like you) know thats not a thing yet, i read your post wrong since being an orochi main i'm expecting mostly a storm of hate and arguments that consist of "you weeb, your bad and only play the orochi because it's over powered" But yeah you are correct, the orochi is strong but has next to nothing to use minus GB> top light > area or GB into top heavy. Apart from that it relies on parries which is a pure risk reward system. The 37 damage from a top light is good, in fact it's a little too good, that is something i had an issue with in the beta's even making a post saying that it needs a damage reduction. I am however curious though, How do you play the berserker?

(Also, i'm not crying, i'm looking for an actual argument about why he is overpowered, i see too many "plz nerf" posts when i know that if they nerf him he will be one of the weakest classes in the game)

you 're saying that oro is punishble. Hes zone is almost unpunishble. My berserker zone can be parried during hit. thats one. In highlevel that im playing(im not greatest player ever) it seems that my infinite combo is almost a flaw. Since really if im not canceling heavy its almost autoparry. That said i feel ok. I have to feint 2 times to get 70% of damage u get from your top light.
And if they dont fall for parry and block my light = free gb. It was free gb,right now its not(THANK GOD).
Orochi is strong because he doesnt need many moves to be succesfull. Higher level orochis only do zones,top light,top heavy, storm rush cancels into top lights. Thats fine tbh. PK makes me wanna punch someone tho. This hero is really ******ed. He has highest attack speed lights and not even shortest ( helo my zerker). She has 8 frames zone. 8 frames. for instance shugoki change stance 9 frames. 8 ****ING frames. That gives me a cancer. That move is litteraly UNPUNISHBLE. you can block it = no reward. you can dodge it = no reward. The only way to punish is to ACCEDENTLY parry it. Cause obviously you cant do that intentionally.

Sieger300
02-28-2017, 02:57 PM
Right now the most unbalanced thing in game across some heroes is zone attacks. I dont get how clearing mobs waves can be so effective in 1v1. That doesnt make sense. I dont know if that was intended but it seems it wasnt. Since double indicators with FASTEST attacks in the game is not a really a good idea. At least not for me.

P.S. mby im crying about it because my zerker has ****ty zone tho . LUL

TheBrokenCrow
02-28-2017, 03:01 PM
you 're saying that oro is punishble. Hes zone is almost unpunishble. My berserker zone can be parried during hit. thats one. In highlevel that im playing(im not greatest player ever) it seems that my infinite combo is almost a flaw. Since really if im not canceling heavy its almost autoparry. That said i feel ok. I have to feint 2 times to get 70% of damage u get from your top light.
And if they dont fall for parry and block my light = free gb. It was free gb,right now its not(THANK GOD).
Orochi is strong because he doesnt need many moves to be succesfull. Higher level orochis only do zones,top light,top heavy, storm rush cancels into top lights. Thats fine tbh. PK makes me wanna punch someone tho. This hero is really ******ed. He has highest attack speed lights and not even shortest ( helo my zerker). She has 8 frames zone. 8 frames. for instance shugoki change stance 9 frames. 8 ****ING frames. That gives me a cancer. That move is litteraly UNPUNISHBLE. you can block it = no reward. you can dodge it = no reward. The only way to punish is to ACCEDENTLY parry it. Cause obviously you cant do that intentionally.

We do not talk about the PK... PK's are what we call literally broken. Too fast, now they have most of their bleed back (from the patch notes they have 90% of it's damage back) and ofcourse a 8/9 frame area cancel that can be put into a combo for more damage. v.v . Thats painful to even think about. Personally and honestly i think 2 things need to be tweaked a little on the orochi, the area's speed and the top light damage. THAT will make him more balanced and less of a threat, the zerker needs to be a little faster with maybe a 1-2 damage increase and the area needs a tweak. Honestly i have respect for you for the simple reason you have an actual argument towards this so i appreciate that.

TheBrokenCrow
02-28-2017, 03:02 PM
Right now the most unbalanced thing in game across some heroes is zone attacks. I dont get how clearing mobs waves can be so effective in 1v1. That doesnt make sense. I dont know if that was intended but it seems it wasnt. Since double indicators with FASTEST attacks in the game is not a really a good idea. At least not for me.

P.S. mby im crying about it because my zerker has ****ty zone tho . LUL

I don't see that as crying, i think after the second hit it should be cancelable into a dash or just a fein.

Sieger300
02-28-2017, 03:06 PM
my point is. Dont cry out loud about someone who says you're beating them just because you're playing different class.
I can link you 500000 youtube videos of pk mains that saying that PK is just a good hero. She's not. Since bad pk players(like me) can litteraly **** everyone playing her 5 times.

TheBrokenCrow
02-28-2017, 03:08 PM
my point is. Dont cry out loud about someone who says you're beating them just because you're playing different class.
I can link you 500000 youtube videos of pk mains that saying that PK is just a good hero. She's not. Since bad pk players(like me) can litteraly **** everyone playing her 5 times.

Thats understandable and agreeable. I miss the days when forums were made for discussion not arguments, ideas not misinformation and a place where a community can actually agree on stuff.

In other words maybe i just expect a little too much but there are people like you who want a game to work rather then nerf everything into oblivion.

ZEONesp
02-28-2017, 03:15 PM
Love these guys protecting their op main.

Sieger300
02-28-2017, 03:16 PM
actually im fine with 37 damage top light. I dont like double indicator zone. That stupid. The only thing i have to say is broken about orochi. but thats not orochi thing,its across all classes.
If you want to see how im playing my berserker i can link you my zerker VOD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD6_zUucJec&t=113s
just 4 duels in a row that i recorded

TheBrokenCrow
02-28-2017, 03:19 PM
actually im fine with 37 damage top light. I dont like double indicator zone. That stupid. The only thing i have to say is broken about orochi. but thats not orochi thing,its across all classes.
If you want to see how im playing my berserker i can link you my zerker VOD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD6_zUucJec&t=113s
just 4 duels in a row that i recorded

Ah sweet thanks, going to take a look now. (As some people may have realized yes i'm ignoring other people who have no argument minus "it's op" i don't care for that opinion, sorry.)

Edit: After watching some of it, your a pretty damn good zerker, i will say though try and parry a lil more. more damage xD

EffectedMink0
02-28-2017, 04:01 PM
Now the only thing that bothers me is how his guardbreak always seems to take priority over every other action in the game. Now, I'm a Warlord main, I'm fully aware of how to parry and counter GB, etc etc.

I can initiate my GB a second before his, only for him to hit his GB and have it take priority while he hits me with a strong attack that takes out a bar and a half of my health.

Panzer_Cmndr
02-28-2017, 04:08 PM
"yes i'm ignoring other people who have no argument minus "it's op" i don't care for that opinion"

LMAO! Now that is classic!

basic-one
02-28-2017, 04:36 PM
"yes i'm ignoring other people who have no argument minus "it's op" i don't care for that opinion"

LMAO! Now that is classic!

Maybe people don't want to discuss anything with you because of your ****ty attitude and tone.