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View Full Version : Fix for the defensive meta @ high level



JeeNiNe
02-27-2017, 09:17 AM
I think I found a simple way to fix the defensive meta at high level without changing the mechanics of the game. That being said a patch that balances characters and address the server issues is still needed.

Make counter guard break use up more stamina than a guard break attempt.

What this does is force a defensive opponent to attack when he keeps getting harassed by guard breaks, otherwise countering guard breaks will lead the defensive opponent getting out of stamina leaving him vulnerable. Attacking would become the best alternative at countering guard breaks instead of passively waiting for the counter to reset the fight.
It's a fairly simple fix that also does not hinder the low and mid tier player base.

JeeNiNe
02-27-2017, 09:27 AM
This will lead to people disengage after the second block and waiting for their stamina to refill.
Thats a very valid concern, and i though about it, to disengage a fight you have to dodge back which leaves you open for a guard break, rolling would also eat away your stamina.

TCTF_SWAT
02-27-2017, 09:30 AM
What about making stamina have a slight delay before starting to regen similar to how conqs and warlords full block stance works or how health regen works.

JeeNiNe
02-27-2017, 10:44 AM
See, in the current state of the game, parrying becomes a problem when your opponent is fishing for a parry when being defensive and reactive, hence the defensive player is safe because he doesnt have to attack and risk getting parried himself. Which there lies the problem. The goal is to force both player to be more offensive to both have parries opportunity. So the goal is to force both player to keep an aggressive pace to exchange blows.

To do so, you need a pressuring tool that isnt punishable by reaction. GB would now be a pressuring tool. A defensive opponent using only GB counters pressured by GB spam would lose his stamina which would after a few GB counters leave him vulnerable with a grey stamina bar. On the other hand GB spam wouldnt be viable either because you leave yourself open for attacks while attempting to GB. So in response to multiple GB, you would have to retaliate with an offensive move to then make some space between you and your opponent to get your stamina back.
Also GBs have less range than attacks so it would be unsafe to GB as soon as you would be in GB range because you get in attack range 1rst.

I want to make this clear, even if this suggestion implies modifying stamina on GB it does not mean that the problems lies with GB or that it would change how GB works. GB and counter GB would basically stay the same the only difference is that c.ounter GB would cost more stamina

Felis_Menari
02-27-2017, 01:58 PM
Punishing a player for saving their own *** from a world of hurt when it requires precise timing to do so? He'll, no.

spawn10459
02-27-2017, 02:42 PM
Remove revenge and problem is fixed

Felis_Menari
02-27-2017, 02:53 PM
Remove revenge and problem is fixed

So what would you replace revenge with? Because without it or something like it, anything more than a 1v1 is basically an automatic loss for those who are outnumbered.

Qarismah
02-27-2017, 05:10 PM
I think I found a simple way to fix the defensive meta at high level without changing the mechanics of the game. That being said a patch that balances characters and address the server issues is still needed.

Make counter guard break use up more stamina than a guard break attempt.

What this does is force a defensive opponent to attack when he keeps getting harassed by guard breaks, otherwise countering guard breaks will lead the defensive opponent getting out of stamina leaving him vulnerable. Attacking would become the best alternative at countering guard breaks instead of passively waiting for the counter to reset the fight.
It's a fairly simple fix that also does not hinder the low and mid tier player base.

I think this is a smart solution. As much as I hate guardbreaks and being guardbroken, it is the only tool usable against an opponent who does nothing but block and parry. Unfortunately it is useless against someone who can consistently counter. This would not only make guardbreak useful in all situations, but also pressure defensive players to be aggressive when an enemy gets close enough to gb them and force them to counter and spend a lot of stamina. I think this is exactly what the guardbreak was originally intended to do: break your defense.

My only criticism to this solution is that I still think that guardbreaks are already too powerful in that they give way to throws that can end a fight with a couple button presses regardless of health. I think that a guardbroken player should have an additional chance to counter if a throw is attempted.

I'm totally in favor of this solution though because the way I play, I try to avoid being guardbroken at all since I'm not reliable with the counter. That means with some opponents I have to be very aggressive and with others I have to be careful of the parry to guaranteed guardbreak. I also think this solution is very helpful for lawbringers who are hurt right now because they rely so heavily on their gb combo but it's so predictable that even I can counter it consistently. However a predictable guardbreak that forces a counter which costs stamina would actually play very well into their role as a disabler.

Eirmund
02-27-2017, 07:04 PM
I think I found a simple way to fix the defensive meta at high level without changing the mechanics of the game. That being said a patch that balances characters and address the server issues is still needed.

Make counter guard break use up more stamina than a guard break attempt.

What this does is force a defensive opponent to attack when he keeps getting harassed by guard breaks, otherwise countering guard breaks will lead the defensive opponent getting out of stamina leaving him vulnerable. Attacking would become the best alternative at countering guard breaks instead of passively waiting for the counter to reset the fight.
It's a fairly simple fix that also does not hinder the low and mid tier player base.

Uh.......no. I think this is a terrible idea. In theory it sounds good because it brings a turtle out of his shell. But think about how bad it'll be offensively.
People will spam GB after lights even more then they do now because it actually HURTS the other play to try and counter it. And what about when they get into a shoving match with GB? The attacker auto-wins because the defender will run out of stamina before they do. Not to mention that GB catches on evasion so the only way to counter the spam is to spam lights and get parried or roll away and burn up a large portion of stamina.

And what about exhaustion? How will it work there? It'll either eat up stamina, thus screwing you over because you'll either get GB'd and lose stamina, or you counter GB and lose stamina, or you won't be able to Counter GB while in exhaustion. The game will devolve into a new meta of running your opponent out of stamina because exhaustion will guarantee a win. No thank you.

Qarismah
02-28-2017, 07:19 AM
Uh.......no. I think this is a terrible idea. In theory it sounds good because it brings a turtle out of his shell. But think about how bad it'll be offensively.
People will spam GB after lights even more then they do now because it actually HURTS the other play to try and counter it. And what about when they get into a shoving match with GB? The attacker auto-wins because the defender will run out of stamina before they do. Not to mention that GB catches on evasion so the only way to counter the spam is to spam lights and get parried or roll away and burn up a large portion of stamina.

And what about exhaustion? How will it work there? It'll either eat up stamina, thus screwing you over because you'll either get GB'd and lose stamina, or you counter GB and lose stamina, or you won't be able to Counter GB while in exhaustion. The game will devolve into a new meta of running your opponent out of stamina because exhaustion will guarantee a win. No thank you.

The thing is exhaustion doesn't actually guarantee a win. You can still defend just as well when you're out of stamina. You can still counter guardbreaks, you can still dodge, you can still block, you can still parry. You only attack really slowly and you can't sprint. This solution doesn't really put a good defender at too much risk, it only prevents a strictly defensive player from being able to punish an aggressive player so effectively.

The objective in fights would then be to kill or be killed, as it probably should be. There would definitely be a shove meta developing but it would easily be countered by simply being more aggressive. The point is that if you let your opponent guard break you, you are taking some punishment either in the form of damage to your health or to your stamina. Therefore, do not get guardbroken! However, an opponent that is constantly reaching for a guardbreak gets torn apart by someone who is playing aggressively.

As a result, fights would end quicker. You would be less likely to find yourself outnumbered because you wouldn't have to spend 2 minutes or more waiting for someone to make the first move. But if you really like playing defensively, you would still be able to in some situations. You would just have to mix in a few light attacks in order to prevent them from getting close enough to guardbreak you.

JeeNiNe
02-28-2017, 10:43 AM
My only criticism to this solution is that I still think that guardbreaks are already too powerful in that they give way to throws that can end a fight with a couple button presses regardless of health. I think that a guardbroken player should have an additional chance to counter if a throw is attempted.

See I agree with that, when I want to win, and I am near a cliff, I literally never attack and fish for a parry, and get it, parry to GB then throw off the opponent. Its kind of lame to be honest. But hazards kills are so prominent in this game, its a core element to their design. I doubt they would get rid of it. Although I dare say, I think that the fact that you can one shot people using throws, helps with the balance between most classes and bad matchups. See without throws the raider is nothing really. Although the Warlord is already ridiculously dangerous in this game without his 10 feet push.

I would also like to point out that at some point you ll know the variables of a fight enough that you will rarely get thrown off ledges unless its initiated by a really good parry.

Personally I would like to see more maps with fewer hazards.especially, for 1v1 and 2v2 maybe besides fire, because fire traps are the only balanced traps in this game.
Im open for a second chance mechanic when getting thrown, I think a lot of low to mid tier player would appreciate such mechanic, hell im sure some high level players would see as a good idea too. I would just make it harder to counter than a GB because once you get it down, you dont miss counter GB anymore.

I dont know tho, I still think ledges keep somewhat of a balance between characters.

CaptianBeetle
02-28-2017, 11:25 AM
I think I found a simple way to fix the defensive meta at high level without changing the mechanics of the game. That being said a patch that balances characters and address the server issues is still needed.

Make counter guard break use up more stamina than a guard break attempt.

What this does is force a defensive opponent to attack when he keeps getting harassed by guard breaks, otherwise countering guard breaks will lead the defensive opponent getting out of stamina leaving him vulnerable. Attacking would become the best alternative at countering guard breaks instead of passively waiting for the counter to reset the fight.
It's a fairly simple fix that also does not hinder the low and mid tier player base.

This is an absolutely terrible idea.

People would just guard break you so they get their free heavy hit, and if you try to defend it, then you use more stamina.. Like... You really think that is a good idea?

It would basically mean you either lose stam, or get smacked in the face. Or both.

JeeNiNe
03-01-2017, 06:22 AM
Seriously, at least read the post correctly before passing illogical judgment that could confuse others. I dont know where you read ''free heavy hit''.

Warp_11
03-01-2017, 06:30 AM
I disagree with this thread, I don't imagine playing current Lawbringer with defense nerfed. You can't simply parry every incoming attack, especially vs assassins, Valkyrie and Nobushi.

CaptianBeetle
03-01-2017, 10:57 AM
Seriously, at least read the post correctly before passing illogical judgment that could confuse others. I dont know where you read ''free heavy hit''.

The free heavy hit comes with not defending guard break.

If you do not defend guard break, the person who grabbed, hits you in the face with a heavy. Usually. Guardbreak --> Free Heavy Hit (It is occasionally counter-able, depending on who is swinging at you and from what direction)

If you try and counter guard break, and it takes more stamina than a guard break, then you are wasting your own stamina for nothing because you will have less options to punish your opponent after successfully defending yourself. Simply because you have less stamina to do attacks.

So, if your opponent decides to try and spam guard breaks on you, you are forced with 1 of 2 options really. 1, neglect to defend yourself, and take a free heavy hit to the face, or 2, defend yourself and back away to recover stam/waste the remaining stam trying to punish.

And that isn't even mentioning your opponent trying to grab you again after you just countered their first grab. Meaning you would lose more stamina again, or get bopped in the face again.

I read your post. Does this clarify my previous post?

Recpit
03-01-2017, 11:12 AM
I feel like countering an attempt of gb in a open space doesnt punish the player that gets countered quite enough. I mean, multiple times i've saw people that were constantly spamming gb, the only thing that they would get after being countered was just being pushed away. Wich is not that punishable, at least in my opinion (in a open space, not on maps such as bridge and so on)

Qarismah
03-03-2017, 07:08 PM
The free heavy hit comes with not defending guard break.

If you do not defend guard break, the person who grabbed, hits you in the face with a heavy. Usually. Guardbreak --> Free Heavy Hit (It is occasionally counter-able, depending on who is swinging at you and from what direction)

If you try and counter guard break, and it takes more stamina than a guard break, then you are wasting your own stamina for nothing because you will have less options to punish your opponent after successfully defending yourself. Simply because you have less stamina to do attacks.

So, if your opponent decides to try and spam guard breaks on you, you are forced with 1 of 2 options really. 1, neglect to defend yourself, and take a free heavy hit to the face, or 2, defend yourself and back away to recover stam/waste the remaining stam trying to punish.

And that isn't even mentioning your opponent trying to grab you again after you just countered their first grab. Meaning you would lose more stamina again, or get bopped in the face again.

I read your post. Does this clarify my previous post?

You are ignoring option 3 which is the entire purpose of this thread: Play more aggressively. If an opponent is constantly trying to force you out of stamina by guard breaking all you have to do is spam light attacks.

The whole purpose is so that players who like to fish for parries and nothing else will be forced to actually attack every once in a while so that their opponent can have a chance to parry as well.

TL;DR DON"T GET GRABBED. ACTUALLY USE LIGHT ATTACKS.

eight216
07-01-2017, 02:53 AM
This changes the meta to "Reactively counter gbs with a light" on the high end and on the lower end of skill "Spam gb because they don't know yet that whatever they do in response to a GB puts them at a disadvantage unless it's a light."

Oh, and then in mediocre tier "Spam GB to condition them to throw lights, one of which i will parry when they assume the GB is INC"


What they ought to do is 5 things

1) if an enemy tries to parry against a feint you get a free followup light attack that operates similar to warden, orochi, or shinobis free second light.

2) You get one parry attempt on an attack. If you fail to parry the attack you can't block or go for a second parry on that attack (however revenge would lift those restrictions so if you're outnumbered you've got a little room for error.)

3) Conquers superior block now operates like shogoki hyper armor and will only work once per enemy every 5 seconds. Sup block should get a free light on light block and a GB on heavy block, it should be restored on a parry or sup block deflect. If the conq is hit and/or blocks an attack during the recharge, it resets the cooldown of said recharge back to 5s (not including bleed damage)

4) The further along your combo you are the more chip damage you deal. This is to allow continued offense to mount pressure as well as to shift the balance of the game towards increased reward for following through rather than feinting.

5) Revenge, in addition to the properties explained above, will also grant you increased resistance to control effects. Mainly, you will only be staggered by knockdowns and you'll be effectively immune to staggers.


Ideally feints would only be used when you know your opponent is going to parry and otherwise you'll be better off trying to combo through enemy block.

AzureSky.
07-01-2017, 03:11 AM
I think I found a simple way to fix the defensive meta at high level without changing the mechanics of the game. That being said a patch that balances characters and address the server issues is still needed.

Make counter guard break use up more stamina than a guard break attempt.

What this does is force a defensive opponent to attack when he keeps getting harassed by guard breaks, otherwise countering guard breaks will lead the defensive opponent getting out of stamina leaving him vulnerable. Attacking would become the best alternative at countering guard breaks instead of passively waiting for the counter to reset the fight.
It's a fairly simple fix that also does not hinder the low and mid tier player base.



I think its better to make the counter guard break more harder to do, since right now even normal elo players can do it.

AzureSky.
07-01-2017, 03:18 AM
This changes the meta to "Reactively counter gbs with a light" on the high end and on the lower end of skill "Spam gb because they don't know yet that whatever they do in response to a GB puts them at a disadvantage unless it's a light."

Oh, and then in mediocre tier "Spam GB to condition them to throw lights, one of which i will parry when they assume the GB is INC"


What they ought to do is 5 things

1) if an enemy tries to parry against a feint you get a free followup light attack that operates similar to warden, orochi, or shinobis free second light.

2) You get one parry attempt on an attack. If you fail to parry the attack you can't block or go for a second parry on that attack (however revenge would lift those restrictions so if you're outnumbered you've got a little room for error.)

3) Conquers superior block now operates like shogoki hyper armor and will only work once per enemy every 5 seconds. Sup block should get a free light on light block and a GB on heavy block, it should be restored on a parry or sup block deflect. If the conq is hit and/or blocks an attack during the recharge, it resets the cooldown of said recharge back to 5s (not including bleed damage)

4) The further along your combo you are the more chip damage you deal. This is to allow continued offense to mount pressure as well as to shift the balance of the game towards increased reward for following through rather than feinting.

5) Revenge, in addition to the properties explained above, will also grant you increased resistance to control effects. Mainly, you will only be staggered by knockdowns and you'll be effectively immune to staggers.


Ideally feints would only be used when you know your opponent is going to parry and otherwise you'll be better off trying to combo through enemy block.

People dont parry lights in low elo......... even in high elo theres not much people that can do light parrys constantly.

The_B0G_
07-01-2017, 03:59 AM
I didn't think I was high level but all I've been running into all night is turtles, I fought one guy that stayed at C in the new Samurai msp, he never attacked once, got 8 kills from turtling and pushing people into the water with a conq, it was infuriating.

Another game was Shugoki, same thing, never attacked until he had help just turtle and CGB, after the 4th match in a row of turtles I just turned the game off. I might wait untill the defense meta nerf until I can play this game again. I don't know how high level player can still play this game.

RatedChaotic
07-01-2017, 05:12 PM
I think there is enough light attack and gb spam as it is.

People will spam gb to have the opponent lose stam. Light attack spam to counter it. No thanks.