PDA

View Full Version : Getting serious, joystick advice...



Bluntage1
03-08-2004, 04:24 PM
I have been playing Forgotten Battles as well as the original off and on for a year or so. I am an absolutely dreadful pilot, but I enjoy the occasional quick mission... this game is so beautiful I am awestruck. I am currently using a MS Sidewinder Precision Pro (non-FFB). I am thinking of really sinking my teeth into the game now that I have Aces but want more control from my flight stick. I am limited in the amount of cash I can spend at one time so I must choose my pieces wisely. My friend has the Saitek X45 and, to be completely honest, I am not too keen on it. I can't afford to get pedals right away and prefer the twist rudder to those rockers switches. And although the throttle is quite nice, the stick itself leaves a lot to be desired imho. I have been eyeing the CH Fighter Stick. I am thinking I can use it alone for the time being, eventually adding the pedals and the throttle. The CH website says it has 3 axes, so my question is : does that mean it actually has a twist rudder? If so, I think I am sold. All of your opinions in this matter are welcome!

Secondly, I cannot afford Track IR2 and want to use my hat for view... but I wish it was more fluid. Any suggestions? I have seen some talk on these boards about Newview and all. Your thoughts?

Thanks so much,

Bluntage

Bluntage1
03-08-2004, 04:24 PM
I have been playing Forgotten Battles as well as the original off and on for a year or so. I am an absolutely dreadful pilot, but I enjoy the occasional quick mission... this game is so beautiful I am awestruck. I am currently using a MS Sidewinder Precision Pro (non-FFB). I am thinking of really sinking my teeth into the game now that I have Aces but want more control from my flight stick. I am limited in the amount of cash I can spend at one time so I must choose my pieces wisely. My friend has the Saitek X45 and, to be completely honest, I am not too keen on it. I can't afford to get pedals right away and prefer the twist rudder to those rockers switches. And although the throttle is quite nice, the stick itself leaves a lot to be desired imho. I have been eyeing the CH Fighter Stick. I am thinking I can use it alone for the time being, eventually adding the pedals and the throttle. The CH website says it has 3 axes, so my question is : does that mean it actually has a twist rudder? If so, I think I am sold. All of your opinions in this matter are welcome!

Secondly, I cannot afford Track IR2 and want to use my hat for view... but I wish it was more fluid. Any suggestions? I have seen some talk on these boards about Newview and all. Your thoughts?

Thanks so much,

Bluntage

Bluntage
03-08-2004, 05:54 PM
bump http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dnmy
03-08-2004, 06:00 PM
keep your microsoft stick. They're simply the best there are.

go for the trackIR.

I play with a microsoft stick and a trackIR. HOTAS and the like is overrated in FB. Nice but hardly mandatory. TrackIR however..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

forgot:
i also have the CH fighterstick and throttle, but i don't use them in FB. The CH stick definitely does NOT have twist rudder.

horseback
03-08-2004, 07:14 PM
I'll confirm that the CH sticks don't have twist rudder control; the third axis can be used for throttle. You're better off going for pedals first, despite your initial aversion. IMHO, it's the most immersive addition you can make to this game's experience.

The Sidewinder Precision 2 is a good little stick, and you can still use it with CH Pro Pedals; just map your rudder & brakes to the pedals instead of the twisty thing.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

XyZspineZyX
03-08-2004, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
... HOTAS and the like is overrated in FB. Nice but hardly mandatory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. I find a HOTAS set-up is much more immersive IMHO. I went from a simple 3 axis/4 button stick to an X-45 and like it fine. However the X-45 isn't for everyone. But it is inexpensive and would make it easier for you to afford pedals.

One option, used by Bearcat99 and others is to use the Microsoft stick in combination with a throttle quadrant. With a throttle you can have more commands at hand rather than looking down at the keyboard just before that guy gets on your six and sends you down to earth in a flaming ball of fire.

If you really don't want a throttle quad, consider pedals as posted above. It would be an excellent addtion.

(Plus if you do any auto racing sims they can double for accelerator/brake pedals.)

My 2 kopecks worth.



http://www.il2airracing.com/images/IL2AirRacing.gif
http://www.il2airracing.com/

HH Quazi
03-08-2004, 09:03 PM
Just the fact that with an X-45 you can map all the functions you need to play FB without never having to go to the keyboard for anything. There are some great profiles out there. I also find the rudder control on the throttle to be easy access. For my personal taste, the X-45 is all I need to be a better pilot. Just the fact that I don't have to hunt for keys on the keyboard while in the middle of a DF is a huge help. But to each his own. I hope you find the stick and setup that suits you. BTW, the only thing I wish the X-45 had is forced feedback. Good Luck! S!

Bluntage
03-08-2004, 09:08 PM
Thank you all for the swift replies. To be honest, I don't want to spend a ton of money on CH products if I can get what I am after for less. Perhaps I will take a drive to Best Buy tomorrow and give the Saitek another look, only had the chance to use it briefly when my friend was here from Florida last year. Cheers.

Blunty

RollingBlunder
03-08-2004, 09:31 PM
Blunt,

Don't step off of that cliff just yet. I've tried a lot of sticks over the years and my favorites are still the FF sticks by Microsoft. Do like some others suggested and get a throttle quad.

I can't imagine getting a stick without force feedback. It's just too much to give up.


Just rolling along,
RollingBlunder

JG27_Gundog
03-08-2004, 09:48 PM
I've got a Thrustmaster Cougar that sits on a shelf. Up untill this weekend I'd been using my cougar throttle with my MSFF2 stick. That worked fairly well, however I just picked up a nostromo sn52 speedpad for $40.00.
http://www.imageshack.us/files1/n52_001_l.jpg

"Belkin's unique game controller aims to replace your keyboard for first and third person shooters by placing 14 programmable keys, a directional pad, scroll wheel. and thumb buttons, at the tips of your left hand. Rather than fumbling across the keys of your keyboard, the n52 is an ergonomic and innovative solution to the problem. There are also four different shift states. So you can multiply your buttons x 4 .
http://www.insidemacgames.com/reviews/view.php?ID=453

[This message was edited by JG27_Gundog on Mon March 08 2004 at 09:03 PM.]

Jumoschwanz
03-08-2004, 11:21 PM
If you can find one somewhere, get a microsoft sidewinder precision 2. I have been abusing one for two years at least and it has not given a hint of trouble. It is built very well. Control is great. I have looked at other sticks and have never seen one that is as well built. I guess the CH stuff has nice build quality but more than one place I read they need work out of the box to perform up to snuff. Look on ebay or on e-stores for the ms precision 2. I think MS quit making joysticks a few months ago so you might have a little trouble finding one. When I heard they were dicontinuing it I went out and bought two and put them in the closet so I will always have one. Buy one now!

Bearcat99
03-08-2004, 11:31 PM
Well you figure for $266-$300 you can get a CH (http://www.provantage.com/buy-110CHPU-ch-shopping.htm) setup. If you go for a Saitek X45 and a set of CH pedals you will spend $180..... IMO pedals are a must for any simmer.. so is a HOTAS setup. IMO the BEST HOTAS for the $$$ is the Saitek. With pedals you can use the rocker arm on the throtle for something else.... like flaps say.... and have a ball. Pedals adds to the immersion factor and having a HOTAS gives you the feeling that you are actually workihng something... that it is more than just a simulation on your computer. I use a FFB stick too so I am in there... and loving every bit.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

Mirtma
03-08-2004, 11:52 PM
I can't play without Newview. When you adjust it to your needs it't must have!. Try it. You won't be sorry!

http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_newview.htm


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bluntage1:
Secondly, I cannot afford Track IR2 and want to use my hat for view... but I wish it was more fluid. Any suggestions? I have seen some talk on these boards about Newview and all. Your thoughts?
Bluntage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

---------------------------
Athlon 2000 XP+
1024 Mb DDram
*** broken****waiting new******
** GeForce 4200 Ti 128Mb 8xAGP **
*** broken****waiting new******
SB Live! 1024 Player
Logitech WingMan Force 3D
---------------------------

WTE_Ibis
03-09-2004, 03:24 AM
For 5 years I had an excellent stick,a logitech wingman interceptor.What a stick,smoooth as silk, a good rudder lever and smoooth as silk,3 hat switches and did I mention as smoooooth as silk.Unfortunately while trying to evade an uber LA7 driver I got over excited and snapped the rudder lever off my beloved interceptor.While pondering what to replace my dead departed stick with I consulted these forums. These forums convinced me I needed more buttons and the consensus was X45 hotas.Well I bought one didn't I,an arm and a leg it cost me didn't it.$165au at the time.Beautiful throttle,so so rudder,and not to be too harsh,a crap stick.Really sticky in the central position where you need it smooth,then you need to be the governor of California to arm wrestle it further.Tech.support said "rub a candle on your moving parts" now I mean to say? WOT.---DO NOT MELT CANDLE ONTO YOUR MOVING PARTS!!!! Not good,hurts,Now someone on these forums suggested using deoderant on moving sufaces and I do admit the stick doesn't quite stink as much but I still wouldn't wish it on an LA7 driver,er-wait a minute, yes I would. Well at the moment I'm attempting to make a new rudder lever for my interceptor out of 18ct.gold and if that works I'm going to encrust the rest of the stick with diamonds and then clone it several times.After I have finished that,so as not to waste the X45 I intend to intergrate it,(the X45 that is),into the steering mechanism of my mother-in-laws Toyota where I believe it maybe of some benefit,(to me that is).If that doesn't work I'll just bury it in the garden with a cross saying "here lies a stick that gave little joy.

The-Tyke
03-09-2004, 03:56 AM
I've just bought an X45 and given my old MS FFB to my son.
The throttle on the X45 is great, but it's much easier to put the aiming point where you want it using the MS stick with it's twist handle rudder. Therefore I've decided to get the best of both worlds and 'nick' the MS stick back off my son and use it with the X45 throttle.

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-09-2004, 08:00 AM
I have 2 squadmates who had the Saitek X45 and really liked them, however they have both switched to the CH fighterstick (and kept the Saitek throttle for now). They both said the quality of the Saitek was questionable and one even replaced his three times in a year (under warranty of course).

You need to work within the parameters you have and the CH stuff is pricey,but I highly recommend the fighterstick. You will NOT be sorry. The good thing about it is you can add the other controllers (throttle and pedals) as you're able with the nod going to the pedals first.

I had used the CH pedals and throttle with my MSFFB2 for months and finally switched to a CH stick as well. I use the Flightstick Pro as I'm severely left-handed and have the added modes on the throttle.

I know the cost is daunting, but you will thank yourself over and over if you don't "settle" and go ahead and get what you want. Whatever that turns out to be.


http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Bearcat99
03-09-2004, 09:18 AM
I am not familiar with the X45 stick at all...except as a button bay. I am so hooked on FFB. I have a spare in the closet so I can replace my currentone when it dies. I couldnt imagine NOT flying WO FFB. My rudder trim is on the twisty hndle of the FFB stick....works great for those moments when you need a little aim correction. However as a button bay the X45 stick is totally awesome. The spring is so stuff the stick doesnt move much at all when you hit the buttons....even if youare trying to bail out in a panic...... I have the potential to use the buttons on my X45 in six modes....and the buttons on my MSFFB...basically in six modes too if you consider combining keys with CTRL/ALT/SHIFT.. which is what I have the little black button on my X45 throttle set for in modes 1/2/3 (I currently only use 3 modes..its all i needbut i COULD concievably use six modes). IMO the very best combination is an X45 in conjunction with some kind of FFB stick and pedals...... even though the MSFFB stick is no longer available I have convinced some buds of mine to try the same combo with another FFB stick (Logitech or Saitek)and they have come to feel as I do about the immersion and versatility of such a set up.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

LuckyBoy1
03-09-2004, 09:31 AM
Before you spend a single Zloty on a joystick, see this thread...

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=508109642

Solutions for internet security & spyware problems... http://www.geocities.com/callingelvis911/s_s.html

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

malkuth
03-09-2004, 11:05 AM
Just bought an X45. Its daunting to learn all the controls again. (going from MSFF2 and keyboard)

But so far I like it alot.

Be selling my MSFF2 if anyone interested LOL. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.metrocast.net/~moffre/sig2.jpg

System Specs (http://www.metrocast.net/~moffre/sysspecs.html)

JG27_Arklight
03-09-2004, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
keep your microsoft stick. They're simply the best there are.

go for the trackIR.

I play with a microsoft stick and a trackIR. HOTAS and the like is overrated in FB. Nice but hardly mandatory. TrackIR however..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

forgot:
i also have the CH fighterstick and throttle, but i don't use them in FB. The CH stick definitely does NOT have twist rudder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



HOTAS setups are overrated??? LMAO! Do you even own one???

Having a HOTAS arrangement increases the immersion quite a bit, and IMO the "fun factor" at least 3 fold.

Yeah, flying with a joystick and pressing keyboard buttons all the time is the way to go. LOL

To the original thread starter:

Dont' listen to people who say a HOTAS is overrated. They either:

A. Don't have one.

B. Can't afford one.

C. Have no clue.


TrackIR2 is something I would DEFINATELY purchase! I didn't fly cockpit-on too often before I got mine because using the hat switch was a pain in the 4th point of contact, not to mention completely fake and I am glad I did. TrackIR2 is one of the single most important purchases I have made with relevance to this game. If you ever want to fly in full-real servers I still believe that TrackIR2 is a must have (but I hear there are other "similar" options out there that may work for you and are quite a bit less in money or free). With the level of skill in many of the full-real servers the extra immersion TrackIR2 provides is immeasurable. You actually feal like you are in the cockpit (as much as you can in a video game anyways).

Once you try TrackIR2 and get it setup with your personal settings it would be extremely difficult to fly without it. If using the hat switch or mouse is your thing though, be my guest.....but you are really missing out.

HOTAS wise (and being an owner of both the entire CH USB HOTAS Line, ie. Fighterstick USB, Pro Pedals USB, and Pro Throttle USB and the Thrustmaster Cougar) I can say that the CH Products would probably be your best bet for being well-rounded overall. I LOVE my Cougar but it is quite expensive and doesn't include pedals. If you can affordto get the Cougar and a pair of CH Pro Pedals or a pair of Simpeds then go for it! You won't be disappointed! I mean for the love of humanity, the Cougar HOTAS is close to 18 pounds http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif If cost is a factor then the CH USB setup I have above would do you QUITE WELL! Definately no complaints about CH, whether it be their products or their support!! The only thing about the CH Fighterstick that kind of bugs me is that I think the spring tension is a little too light, but that is just my opinion. Many say the exact reverse concerning the Cougar (the springs on the Cougar are quite heavy). In addition, many also feel that the CH Fighterstick provides a little bit of extra precision and although I do feel the springs are a little too light the precision is definately noticable as well as the worksmanship of the CH stick.

Hope this helps!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ark

I have seen the cheese, and it is good.
------------
2.4C @ 3.6 Default Volt.
ASUS P4C800-E (Rev. 11)
1GB Mushkin PC3500 LvL2 Black @ 2-2-2-5
Radeon 9800XT (Cat. 3.10)
SB Augigy Gamer
Antec True550
Zalman 7000A-CU HSF
4 Case fans/1 120mm Blowhole

Dnmy
03-09-2004, 12:44 PM
Come off your high horse first.

And did i own a HOTAS?

Let me see, Saitek, Suncom, Thrustmaster, CH.
I've owned pretty much ALL the brand HOTAS you can think of. And not the cheap sticks but the full monty stick and throttle and pedals setups.

Maybe you're a HOTAS newbie who just found out about them. Not me. I been playing sims with HOTAS for many years already. That's why i can definitely say that in FB a HOTAS is highly overrated. It's nice to have one, but not nescessary to play the sim effectively.

Which is exactly why i recommended the guy to stick with his sidewinder and get a trackIR instead. Much better investment given the limited amount of cash he can spend.

BTW if it was not clear i still have a CH HOTAS as spare for the rare case should my FFB2 break down.

In FB it's not nescessary to have a HOTAS. Sims like F4 are more appropriate for HOTAS.

I have a trackIR as well. Which lets me play the sim without having to push a multitude of buttons. In fact the only button i push on the stick is the trigger.

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-09-2004, 12:56 PM
I agree with Dnmy on 2 counts. A HOTAS setup is NOT necessary to play well. It does make the game more enjoyable for me though and I highly recommend one.

Second: One of the best investments you can make (next to a LARGE monitor!) is TrackIR. Version 1 or 2, it doesn't matter. Get one, use it, complain about it being awkward, fall in love with it.

I've seen people play with a $10 POS stick and do quite well, but that doesn't mean I'd recommend it.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Bluntage
03-09-2004, 10:34 PM
Thanks again, gentlemen, for the advice. I believe my best course of attack at this time is to procure a throttle of some sort first, to get me off the keyboard asap, and look into the Track IR investment. Pedals will have to wait due to finances and the fact that I can still use my existing stick's twist rudder. While I think the CH Products would be a safe bet and I am sure I would be happy with their quality/functionality, if I went the X45 route I might be able to afford Track IR as well. I am going to Best Buy tomorrow to have another peep at the X45. Although I am sure if I purchased one, I would still use my Sidewinder for the stick! (Bearcat's setup &lt;sans pedals&gt; sounds about like what I envision being in my pricerange for the time being.) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thanks again!
Bluntage

By the way, Malkuth, I might take that MS FFB off your hands to have a spare if you're serious.

gkll
03-10-2004, 12:10 AM
MSFFB2 is no question the best stick I've ever tried - and FFB is a prerequisite for getting into the FM absolutely, forget doing the flight bit, like this sim can do it, without FFB...

For the view and so on you might consider a mouse - it can work very well if you speed up the rate, the mouse wheel can be set to the throttle and that leaves a slider on the stick for flaps or trim, plus the mouse buttons. Poor man's HOTAS

Do the rudders too. Main thing don't waste your cash on a cheap stick get a MSFFB2

Dnmy
03-10-2004, 09:43 AM
TrackIR will be your hands off keyboard stick and throttle for viewing.

I've been using this gadget for more than 3 years now in sims. I've been using HOTAS for a whole lot more years. So if there's anything i would have to recommend for FB specifically it would have to be the trackIR.

Just make a rough estimate of how many buttons you press and how often.

You may find that you actually don't push too many buttons at all during gameplay. And that most buttons you DO push are viewing related.
If that is indeed the case, then trackIR will suit you better than a HOTAS will. You will get a lot more enjoyment from the trackIR than from a HOTAS.

edit: ofcourse, if you can get both trackIR and a good relatively cheap HOTAS (X45) you'd be 1 happy simmer.

flyingskid2
03-10-2004, 10:21 AM
I push only 1 button for viewing. That's the mouse track stick on my Thrustmaster TQS.