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View Full Version : Suggestion: Anti-Guard Stance Deflect Tech



MassiveD.
02-26-2017, 11:04 PM
(pictures included below)

Greetings,


Me and my mate have been practicing against one another recently, he was advancing his feinting skills, and I was honing my anti-feint guarding / reaction improving.

What it soon became very clear, is that if I really want to put an effort into it, I can turtle up so hard, that no matter what he does, his attacks will simply not do damage to me and I will defend against every single one.

Now, this is not a good thing. As this could be used for trolling, just going into a duel match, turtling up so hard that your oponent just rage quits or something, and if not, can make the whole experience very frustrating for the oponent, if you chose to do so.


So it got me thinking, about the flow of battle, mainly in a 1 vs 1 duel in For Honor.


I came to a realization, that something is missing.

Bear with me, I know this has been said on hundreds of different threads, by players proposing suggestions on how would they change or improve the game, but I honestly think I am on to something here.


After realizing that something feels missing in combat, I still couldn't figure out what it was, so I did some research on HEMA, mainly on longsword techniques.

What I found out from historical articles and guides about sword fighting, is that there is no such thing as a perfect guard.


The go to way to defeat someone in a guard stance, from what I found, is something called a guard-deflect (also sometimes mentioned as sword locking) maneuver.

Which basically works by employing physics and applying certain techniques depending on the characteristics of your weapon, to push your oponents weapon aside and put him in such a position that his weapon is pretty much rendered useless for a split second, which gives you an opening to convert the deflect into a thrust or slash that is meant to put your oponent out of commision.


To emphasize what I mean by the above, I've gathered a few illustrations portraying some of these techniques, and I will give some narrative so you can understand what is exactly going on in them.


Technique number 1

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tIQzKETnC-8/U0GXcUgo1vI/AAAAAAAAAZE/7FRSwE-TX3w/s1600/bsb00020451_00007.jpg


Here you can see that the person on the right side has a very similar if not identical guard to the one that Warden has if hes guarding downwards, which basically is a low guard, with the sword pointing upwards, right hand above left.

Now, the person on the left, initially started with the exact same guard, (low guard, sword pointing upwards, right hand above left) but, he is shown to proceed in defeating his oponents guard by raising his sword inwards to his left, now the left hand is above the right, sword pointing downwards.

By doing this, he uses the weight and momentum of his sword to deflect the oponents blade, and locks his oponents sword in a position from which they cannot counter attack without having to disengage, and as you can see, this move also enables the attacker to follow up by thrusting the sword forwards, striking and injuring the oponent in his chest.


What, I found interesting tho, is that in another article, I actually found the exact same scenario, showing how to defend from such a cunning attack, here it is:

http://hroarr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/meyer-langen-schwerdt-1560.jpg?x76772


As you can see, this time, the person on the right, is already onto his opponent, and he raises the guard upwards, catching the oponents blade with the guard on the sword.

Magnificent!


Technique Number 2:

http://hroarr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Cod.Guelf_.78.2-Aug.2-2r-ca1465.jpg


Now I know, this is a rather weird looking picture, there were a lot of trolls and cheeky people even a thousand years ago, but the technique showcased is actually quite briliant.

The fella in the picture is shown to defeat his naked oponents guard by using a technique called "half-swording", which is basically holding your blade with your hand, allowing you for very precise and controlled attacks, in this case, he first deflects his oponents guard using the weight of his sword, and then follows up with halfswording to inflcit the crippling injury.


Funny enough, you can actually see Warden half-swording in the game already, whenever using light attacks against minions.


Now you may be thinking, ok that's cool and all, but whatever, what does that have to do with For Honor?

Well first of all, it would add an extra layer for the gameplay, and make guarding more risky, which is a good thing, this is a field of battle after all, you are wielding a weapon, you should have the feeling of risk and danger, instead of being able to turtle up to the point where oponent cant even reach you.

I also think that this would be easy to balance, and make it fun.


Obviously I am not a developer, but I am pretty sure they could easily figure out what to do with this idea, from what I can see there are several options:

Option 1:

Not adding any aditional "types" of attacks, but lets say first light attack can be blocked, but if the oponent choses to transition into the second attack - it must be parried, or you take dmg, but you know that the parry is comming, you just need to react. In return, succesfull defending drains the attackers stamina, or you can grab him etc.

Option 2:

Adding a third type of a attack, "sword locking" per say, that would start off as a normal attack but would allow you to transition / change direction quickly into another attack, but as a return, the second attack can be counter-attacked or if parried lets the oponent gain initiative and strike the attacker.

Other bonus things, for example after the primary "guard deflecting attack" you can switch into guard break, or a throw or graple of some sorts, basically the first deflecting attack let's you transition into another move.


I personally think this would be an extremaly fair additional mechanic, as it would give both more attacking choises and more defensive choises, ultimately allowing more depth for you to either outplay or get outplayed by your oponent.

And I do not think it would feel out of place either, as the mechanics are already sort of there, you would still have 3 ways of defence, just more followups on your attacks against a turtling oponent.


Furthermore, I've read more HEMA articles about Axe VS Sword fighting etc, for example you can hook your oponents guard, pull him towards you and smack him in the face with your hilt or you first, so it's not hard to imagine every character in the game having their own spin on this, for example, a berserker could deflect the oponents weapon with one axe hooking it, allowing to strike with the other axe.

Conquerer could bash the weapon away with the shield and then continue with the mace.


Obviously this is basically theory crafting, a subjective opinion if you may, but I would like to hear what you guys think about it.

Cheers,
Aaron

MassiveD.
02-26-2017, 11:33 PM
Hope the post is not too long :D

MassiveD.
02-27-2017, 05:36 PM
Bump

Sunde.5SFG
02-27-2017, 05:49 PM
Interesting ideas, well done. :) I agree with turteling being a massive issue, and something will have to be done about it. Something easy to negate it, might be to increase the damage you take from heavy attacks if your just blocking. Problem is that this still plays in the favor of turtles, as they can easily parry and damage you. Somehow it needs to be advantageous to be the one attacking, rather than defending. At higher levels it is basically a staring contest, as no one is willing to attack, fearing that it will expose them to a counterattack.

Hogmin
02-27-2017, 06:46 PM
I really really like this idea, actually.

These is the best suggestions I've seen so far, great work!

MassiveD.
02-27-2017, 08:43 PM
I'm happy you guys like it, I wish this would attract the attention of the developers, the combat is damn near perfect, obviously minor tweaks here and there are needed, but this sort of mechanic that would allow us to engage a blocking oponent and give more ways to damage them while also giving them a chance to defeat the attack, would make the combat feel deeper, more detailed, and simply by having this extra layer would give people more chance to muck up their defence, making turtling less of a nuisance, without really changing the core gameplay at all