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View Full Version : The "Pay to Win" missunderstanding



m3gas_
02-26-2017, 05:57 PM
So it seems that every third thread nowadays is about how the game is p2w and people demanding refunds because of it being matched against 108 gear level players.
The game's been out for 2 weeks. And I've been on this level of gear with my Warden for days now. Simply by playing. I never paid a dime outside the price of the game itself.
Before you go "but you're just some no-lifer" let me tell you I don't even play that much. I just play some hours each eavning, my longest session maybe being that one 6 hours time at launch weekend.
Thing is those 108 level players like me do the probabbly right thing of choosing one hero and sticking with him/her for a long time. Not spending steel on whatever, just saving it and playing. The learning curve itself if THAT steep. But it's why we love it. So you can't play around and try to level 5-6 heroes at the same time and expect to not be out-geared and out-performed. By doing this you only learn the basic move-set of the game and not the play style of each hero.
Hell even when I sometimes play the Lawbringer and I find myself playing Warden-style simply by muscule memory.
Sure, there are some people why pay to power-level but the can't pay for their skill and most times you can just 1v1 them on skill alone. There is that thing with the revenge mode by gear, but other than that it's not really that big of a deal.
So simply choose a hero you like maybe a 2ed if you insist and focus on them. You'll notice the differance by day 2. And please get the metality of this game not being easy to master.

Cheers !!

Thel..
02-26-2017, 06:01 PM
So it seems that every third thread nowadays is about how the game is p2w and people demanding refunds because of it being matched against 108 gear level players.
The game's been out for 2 weeks. And I've been on this level of gear with my Warden for days now. Simply by playing. I never paid a dime outside the price of the game itself.
Before you go "but you're just some no-lifer" let me tell you I don't even play that much. I just play some hours each eavning, my longest session maybe being that one 6 hours time at launch weekend.
Thing is those 108 level players like me do the probabbly right thing of choosing one hero and sticking with him/her for a long time. Not spending steel on whatever, just saving it and playing. The learning curve itself if THAT steep. But it's why we love it. So you can't play around and try to level 5-6 heroes at the same time and expect to not be out-geared and out-performed. By doing this you only learn the basic move-set of the game and not the play style of each hero.
Hell even when I sometimes play the Lawbringer and I find myself playing Warden-style simply by muscule memory.
Sure, there are some people why pay to power-level but the can't pay for their skill and most times you can just 1v1 them on skill alone. There is that thing with the revenge mode by gear, but other than that it's not really that big of a deal.
So simply choose a hero you like maybe a 2ed if you insist and focus on them. You'll notice the differance by day 2. And please get the metality of this game not being easy to master.

Cheers !!

100% accurate. The mentality of League of Legends needs to go. "I wanna play who I want when I want and be on the same standing as someone that plays only 1-2 heroes."

News flash, time investment yields results. Not just opening your wallet.

Waynedetta40k
02-26-2017, 06:04 PM
100% accurate. The mentality of League of Legends needs to go. "I wanna play who I want when I want and be on the same standing as someone that plays only 1-2 heroes."

News flash, time investment yields results. Not just opening your wallet.

Time investment should yield results and difference when it comes to skill and good plays, not just dmg and hp numbers.
Otherwise dont call it a competitive game and dont talk about "sports" and please dont communicate it as such.
We need more dota mentality "play whatever you want and whenever you want without having to pay to get rid of disadvantage or beeing forced to invest "work"time into a ****ing game".

I will not ever understand how people want to get an advantage with gear, properly to compensate all that missing skill...

Fuzzybutts
02-26-2017, 06:07 PM
I just saved my iron until I found a character I liked and got them to prestige 3,went from 38 to 78 GS with a good variety of stats to choose from with like 2000-ish iron to spare if I wanted to upgrade. I put it towards a head ornament though.

Either way, paying for Iron does JACK EFFING **** UNLESS YOU ARE ABSURDLY LUCKY AND GET STARRED DROPS until your prestige 3 at the least. The moment you hit prestige 3 is when the decent stuff becomes excessively common.

Thel..
02-26-2017, 06:07 PM
Time investment should yield results and difference when it comes to skill and good plays, not just dmg and hp numbers.
Otherwise dont call it a competitive game and dont talk about "sports" and please dont communicate it as such.
We need more dota mentality play whatever you want and whenever you want without having to pay to get rid of disadvantage or beeing forced to invest "work"time into a ****ing game.

I see your point. But, there are plenty of games that have the same concepts that are wildly successful and popular as competitive sports.

You certainly can not like it, and you can certainly not play it. I haven't spent a dime apart from the core game and have a character almost at 108 with what I consider casual play.(15 hours a week.) *Shrug* And it's only been a few weeks.

Relax and enjoy the progression, if you don't like it open your wallet for what you can get for free with time. Or put in the time. Or, stop playing.

Waynedetta40k
02-26-2017, 06:09 PM
I see your point. But, there are plenty of games that have the same concepts that are wildly successful and popular as competitive sports..

Name them please because If I look at twitch I dont see any.


. Or, stop playing.

Alot of people will.
Especially those who feel betrayed by how ubi communicated the game.
And Ubi takes the dmg to the reputation.

Dez_troi_aR
02-26-2017, 06:21 PM
Why are people taking 4vs4 seriously ?

There are no gear in 1v1 and 2v2 and thats where it matters.

But if Dominion etc for some reason is a big deal for you, i can understand the complaining. Gear makes massive difference, expecially when you have high end revenge gear. There is no point in arguing around it: In a skillbased game, gear should only be finetuning and not making a huge difference. If you have high end gear, you get revenge after 3 parries and the damage of a light on top of your heavies. Thats just too much.

While more attack etc. doesnt theoretically ruin the game, revenge does.

Many priciples of the fighting mechanics do no longer apply when you have your shield, cant be interupted and have infinite stamina. If you have a 108-gear peacekeeper, activating revenge 2 times in every fight and destroy one enemy after another by pressing r1 with dmage boost, you did not win via skill, but because you had that very-high end gear. If you have paid for it or not doesnt interest me, point is, it was not about skill. And that has no place in a fighting game.

So yes- some people win because they paid for gear.

Wateverdude
02-26-2017, 06:42 PM
Why are people taking 4vs4 seriously ?

There are no gear in 1v1 and 2v2 and thats where it matters.

But if Dominion etc for some reason is a big deal for you, i can understand the complaining. Gear makes massive difference, expecially when you have high end revenge gear. There is no point in arguing around it: In a skillbased game, gear should only be finetuning and not making a huge difference. If you have high end gear, you get revenge after 3 parries and the damage of a light on top of your heavies. Thats just too much.

While more attack etc. doesnt theoretically ruin the game, revenge does.

Many priciples of the fighting mechanics do no longer apply when you have your shield, cant be interupted and have infinite stamina. If you have a 108-gear peacekeeper, activating revenge 2 times in every fight and destroy one enemy after another by pressing r1 with dmage boost, you did not win via skill, but because you had that very-high end gear. If you have paid for it or not doesnt interest me, point is, it was not about skill. And that has no place in a fighting game.

So yes- some people win because they paid for gear.

Yes I'm salty because high-end gears make a huge difference in Elimination, it's suppose to be a huge duel mix up and 108 char can take my whimpy new char in 3 hits when it took me forever to kill them without cheese.

Domion and Skirmish, when I see those monster I just run away and back with some cheese.

m3gas_
02-26-2017, 06:58 PM
Imo the revenge gain by gear us the only thing actually giving you an advantage not based on skill. And we all know this will be changed and soon, if Ubi wants to keep a solid player base past the first month launch hype.
Other than that i hate to say it's really really a case of "git gud" and not "infinite stamina peacekeeper" and such. I mean give me some cheesy stamina peacekeeper and watch me destroy her after the first sucsessfull parry, cause she won't know how to react if her cheesiness is interupted.
And really keep in mind that by the month mark pretty much everyone will gave top gear and on maybe multiple chars at that, so the playfield will get mostly leveled.

Knight_Raime
02-26-2017, 07:13 PM
to play the devils advocate p2w is basically defined as spending money to get an advantage over another player. this includes shortcuts and gear.
Also since matchmaking doesn't filter gear score people who've spent the money at rep 3 to get the best gear have a clear advantage against players they fight that barely play and have low gear score since gear is VERY impactful.

FailOfHDDVD
02-26-2017, 07:23 PM
Gear stats give you an advantage whether you like it or not.
If you put in extra money for the gears, you are "Pay to Win". (If you actually did win though. Otherwise you "Pay to Lose")

m3gas_
02-26-2017, 07:30 PM
to play the devils advocate p2w is basically defined as spending money to get an advantage over another player. this includes shortcuts and gear.
Also since matchmaking doesn't filter gear score people who've spent the money at rep 3 to get the best gear have a clear advantage against players they fight that barely play and have low gear score since gear is VERY impactful.

Well technically you're right sir. But you have to hand it to Ubi for choosing to make the top gear at launch available at Rep 3 and not at say Rep 10 or 20 where paying for it will actually matter for months to come. No doubt there will be higher Tiers of gear down the road but by then it will be the player's fault if he has to pay to get it "early".

CitizenPuddi
02-26-2017, 07:35 PM
its more "pay for convenience" than anything

theres absolutely nothing in the game you cant acquire without paying a single rl shekel, pre-order bonuses and season pass aside

yeah, itll take time, sad i know

but thats life

if ubi wants to exploit people that cant help but to shell out for a few shortcuts, i cant blame them

Waynedetta40k
02-26-2017, 07:58 PM
its more "pay for convenience" than anything

theres absolutely nothing in the game you cant acquire without paying a single rl shekel, pre-order bonuses and season pass aside

yeah, itll take time, sad i know

but thats life

if ubi wants to exploit people that cant help but to shell out for a few shortcuts, i cant blame them

You can pay for an advantage (huge one) that helps you win -> P2W you dont need to fanboy around its just like that.
For a company pov its all about to balance Time to play to get it VS insta get it via money.
The higher the "time to play to get it" is the more it encourages people to buy it but the more people will hate on the game and call it p2w
So its a balance act between those two variables. It doesnt matter how big the difference is its the possibility which makes it p2w.
Its fine to have this system in a F2P game but implementing it in an 50€ game and give people the decision between "stick to one char or get rekt for hours"
sucks and I would have never imagined that ubi will ****ing do this.

m3gas_
02-26-2017, 08:12 PM
You can pay for an advantage (huge one) that helps you win -> P2W you dont need to fanboy around its just like that.
For a company pov its all about to balance Time to play to get it VS insta get it via money.
The higher the "time to play to get it" is the more it encourages people to buy it but the more people will hate on the game and call it p2w
So its a balance act between those two variables. It doesnt matter how big the difference is its the possibility which makes it p2w.
Its fine to have this system in a F2P game but implementing it in an 50 game and give people the decision between "stick to one char or get rekt for hours"
sucks and I would have never imagined that ubi will ****ing do this.

I really don't get why people put it like this... It's not a case of having maxed out gear starting to win you games on it's own. It's really not. And as I stated - you can get all that in under 2 weeks of casual play and it feels rewarding. Two weeks per hero for getting the "fancy" gear makes sence. And we all know we won't go on trying to master all 12 chars + 6 more afterwards.
All thise boys spending to get geared up will get bored much much faster, mark my words.

CitizenPuddi
02-26-2017, 08:25 PM
You can pay for an advantage (huge one) that helps you win -> P2W you dont need to fanboy around its just like that.
For a company pov its all about to balance Time to play to get it VS insta get it via money.
The higher the "time to play to get it" is the more it encourages people to buy it but the more people will hate on the game and call it p2w
So its a balance act between those two variables. It doesnt matter how big the difference is its the possibility which makes it p2w.
Its fine to have this system in a F2P game but implementing it in an 50€ game and give people the decision between "stick to one char or get rekt for hours"
sucks and I would have never imagined that ubi will ****ing do this.

meh

back in the day p2w meant "you cant get <super powerful thing> unless you pay up", but i guess that definition has expanded over the years, what with all the people nowadays looking for something to complain about

also, wouldnt call the advantage "huge", since we have zero metrics (aside from omg i just got 1shot claims) on exactly how much of an impact gs has. some threads speculate anywhere between 10% and 50% increases/decreases, but nothing's concrete and i personally havent run into any max-geared folks that made me think there was some sort of unfair advantage (but thats anecdotal, so w/e)