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View Full Version : Gut instinct says that Orochi and Conqueror are going to ber nerfed at some point.



Oakleaf__Ranger
02-26-2017, 08:18 AM
Orochi's side dodge slash is gonna get some type of nerf cause of how oppressive and safe it currently is. While the Conqueror is going to be nerfed for how defensively oppressive he is. Assuming none of the current gameplay mechanics are changed that would have a significant impact on how they currently play as. Anyone else agree or disagree?

Kaotic_CipherTV
02-26-2017, 08:23 AM
Orochi's side dodge slash is gonna get some type of nerf cause of how oppressive and safe it currently is. While the Conqueror is going to be nerfed for how defensively oppressive he is. Assuming none of the current gameplay mechanics are changed that would have a significant impact on how they currently play as. Anyone else agree or disagree?

I disagree. Everyone has their tactics. Once GB is fixed it might change a lot of things.

Kensei has a better side attack than orochi imo, orochi just has a faster looking animation. Warden, Kensei, Warlord are way stronger than Conq/Orochi when played right.

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 08:23 AM
IMO, if anything Conqueror straight up needs a rework around his shield bash. Orochi is just an Assassin, and Assassin in general need a good hard look at with many changes.

Exaffect
02-26-2017, 08:24 AM
The most defensive character is defensive,... who'da thunk

Phallicmenace
02-26-2017, 08:29 AM
I would bet real money against an orochi nerf any day of the week. Orochi at higher play is borderline useless with no unblockable to mix up an overly defensive player. On top of that, the side slash from assassins is really unsafe when you play against people who feint often.

Exaffect
02-26-2017, 08:33 AM
I would bet real money against an orochi nerf any day of the week. Orochi at higher play is borderline useless with no unblockable to mix up an overly defensive player. On top of that, the side slash from assassins is really unsafe when you play against people who feint often.

As a conqueror if an orochi makes 1 mistake it's usually over. Their stuff is really telegraphed once you realize the characters moves. He'll always be pointing his weapon on the side you need to block on his charge, etc. The dodge attacks are cool but again, offensively they're kind of weak.

Their best moves are overhead. Idk. Just my anecdotal experience.

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 08:46 AM
I would bet real money against an orochi nerf any day of the week. Orochi at higher play is borderline useless with no unblockable to mix up an overly defensive player. On top of that, the side slash from assassins is really unsafe when you play against people who feint often.

I'm willing to bet you don't play at a higher level, so that's irrelevant.

Orochi, or any assassin really combined with the defensive meta, is basically ********.

Alchemist-21-
02-26-2017, 08:58 AM
I disagree. Everyone has their tactics. Once GB is fixed it might change a lot of things.

Kensei has a better side attack than orochi imo, orochi just has a faster looking animation. Warden, Kensei, Warlord are way stronger than Conq/Orochi when played right.

Agreed. Kensei has a side attack that hits in the opposite direction of his movement and it tricks the vast majority of players. I've even once played against an orochi and we just danced in circles with our attacks and I won out. Orochi are meant to be an evasive class; they can't take many hits and their damage output isn't great. I really don't get why so many people think Orochi is so OP unless they're playing heavy classes that can't handle its speed, but even then Orochi's speed and moves are nowhere near as hard to handle as the other assassin classes.

As for conquerors their shield bash combo is about the only thing they really have (annoying as it is). They have other moves and can keep chaining light attack if they keep hitting, but the conqueror's attacks are so slow that they're incredibly easy to block/parry.

Oakleaf__Ranger
02-26-2017, 09:03 AM
I disagree. Everyone has their tactics. Once GB is fixed it might change a lot of things.

Kensei has a better side attack than orochi imo, orochi just has a faster looking animation. Warden, Kensei, Warlord are way stronger than Conq/Orochi when played right.

Kensei's side attack isn't really spammable though while being much easier to dodge because the animation is slower if the set up and attack frames are the same. Its also much easier to respond to since he doesn't have any fast follow up mix ups unlike the Orochi. I did say that assuming mechanics are unchanged though. The Guard break change coming soon could change all of this.

Exaffect
02-26-2017, 09:03 AM
Agreed. Kensei has a side attack that hits in the opposite direction of his movement and it tricks the vast majority of players. I've even once played against an orochi and we just danced in circles with our attacks and I won out. Orochi are meant to be an evasive class; they can't take many hits and their damage output isn't great. I really don't get why so many people think Orochi is so OP unless they're playing heavy classes that can't handle its speed, but even then Orochi's speed and moves are nowhere near as hard to handle as the other assassin classes.

As for conquerors their shield bash combo is about the only thing they really have (annoying as it is). They have other moves and can keep chaining light attack if they keep hitting, but the conqueror's attacks are so slow that they're incredibly easy to block/parry.

The bash combo is only a problem if they corner you. Otherwise you should be able to be defensive.

They can do quite a but but I'm sure you see a lot of conquerors shield bash nonstop. They have superior block, charge heavy while blocking, 3 direction shield bash, they can cancel with their all block stance, bash out of their stance.

People underestimate the conqueror I think but they aren't op. Don't want to fight me? Don't. I run like a fat kid.

Phallicmenace
02-26-2017, 09:06 AM
That's a pretty big assumption on your part, but that aside I've given more than enough reasons as to why orochi is not seen in any tournaments or at high level play, yet you have given no insight whatsoever as to why they are apparently so grossly overpowered that they deserve a nerf. care to elaborate at all?

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 09:15 AM
That's a pretty big assumption on your part, but that aside I've given more than enough reasons as to why orochi is not seen in any tournaments or at high level play, yet you have given no insight whatsoever as to why they are apparently so grossly overpowered that they deserve a nerf. care to elaborate at all?

Firstly, it's really not a big assumption, do you assume >70% of the playerbase plays at High level? Because they sure like to claim it
Secondly, the Assassin class in general just feels superior to almost any other class, and the standoffish state of play only exasperates the issue.

An Orochi can freely stand still and simply wait for a parry into free GB for a high heavy, which admittedly every character can do, but most can't land a high heavy because they deal the most damage. On top of that, there's the fact that assassin lights (excluding berserker) come out faster than most other characters, all they really need to do to cheese you is wait for your animation to start then immediately throw out a light. This is made even worse by Orochi because he can get a second attack in for free. (I'm unsure if PK applies to this, but it sure as hell feels like you're too stunlocked to block the second, but I could just be imagining it)

Then the issue of dodge crops up, how every assassin has easily spammable side dodge attacks to counter most aggression they can't block because dodge doesn't use ANY stamina, and feints are basically worthless if the player knows what they're doing, the same goes for GBs.

For clarification, I'm not necessarily complaining about Orochi, PK and Berserker easily apply to these scenarios as well, I just think Assassins as they stand are ridiculously strong compared to most other classes, ESPECIALLY if they know what they're doing. (Exceptions being Warden and maybe Warlord)

Oakleaf__Ranger
02-26-2017, 09:22 AM
I would bet real money against an orochi nerf any day of the week. Orochi at higher play is borderline useless with no unblockable to mix up an overly defensive player. On top of that, the side slash from assassins is really unsafe when you play against people who feint often.

He doesn't need unblockables as far as I have seen and played as him. His ability to switch it up where he is coming from quickly combined with GB, feints, and side dodge slash is disgustingly good.The side slash from PK and the berserker side attack are punishable from what I have played so far. However I have not found anything that can beat/punish Orochi's side dodge slash yet that isn't a parry. It has enough knock back that you cant just do a instant GB if you block it to make them worry about it as counter attack option while still being in range to continue attacking with multiple choices he decides to keep pressing you on. God forbid you try to poke back though because he is still in range to continue using it and if he decided to follow up with it again well your gonna eat it while he can still press on.

Phallicmenace
02-26-2017, 09:25 AM
Firstly, it's really not a big assumption, do you assume >70% of the playerbase plays at High level? Because they sure like to claim it
Secondly, the Assassin class in general just feels superior to almost any other class, and the standoffish state of play only exasperates the issue.

An Orochi can freely stand still and simply wait for a parry into free GB for a high heavy, which admittedly every character can do, but most can't land a high heavy because they deal the most damage. On top of that, there's the fact that assassin lights (excluding berserker) come out faster than most other characters, all they really need to do to cheese you is wait for your animation to start then immediately throw out a light. This is made even worse by Orochi because he can get a second attack in for free. (I'm unsure if PK applies to this, but it sure as hell feels like you're too stunlocked to block the second, but I could just be imagining it)

Then the issue of dodge crops up, how every assassin has easily spammable side dodge attacks to counter most aggression they can't block because dodge doesn't use ANY stamina, and feints are basically worthless if the player knows what they're doing, the same goes for GBs.

For clarification, I'm not necessarily complaining about Orochi, PK and Berserker easily apply to these scenarios as well, I just think Assassins as they stand are ridiculously strong compared to most other classes, ESPECIALLY if they know what they're doing. (Exceptions being Warden and maybe Warlord)

There's pretty much no point continuing this if you're just going to say feints are useless and at the same time say "An Orochi can freely stand still and simply wait for a parry into free GB for a high heavy" Link me ANY player who has this robot level of perfection that never falls for feints and simple makes them redundant. If we're going to talk about the game like this then nobody would ever get hit by anything period.

OGL Spade
02-26-2017, 09:26 AM
People only think the Orochi is OP because it's over played, the Orochi is a mid range to low level teir hero. The Conqueror has very good defence but they lack speed, there heavy and light attacks are slow, there charged attacks is a bit faster then there non charged but it's still slow and easy to block/parry, they also can't feint like normal, they have to use perfect defence in order to feint and it costs more stamina. I don't think these classes need a nerf, you just need to come up with a strat to kill them easily

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 09:27 AM
There's pretty much no point continuing this if you're just going to say feints are useless and at the same time say "An Orochi can freely stand still and simply wait for a parry into free GB for a high heavy" Link me ANY player who has this robot level of perfection that never falls for feints and simple makes them redundant. If we're going to talk about the game like this then nobody would ever get hit by anything period.

Ah I see, so because there's a minute chance that a player MIGHT fall for a feint, LEST we forget the fact that you can't feint so far into the animation, which makes most feints predictable, You're not going to bother arguing further because it's evident you don't really know how? Gotcha.


Not to mention the fact that like half of any duel is the players just staring at each other feinting an attack, then going for parry but feinting that.

But ok, dude.

Phallicmenace
02-26-2017, 09:31 AM
Ah I see, so because there's a minute chance that a player MIGHT fall for a feint, LEST we forget the fact that you can't feint so far into the animation, which makes most feints predictable, You're not going to bother arguing further because it's evident you don't really know how? Gotcha.]


Not to mention the fact that like half of any duel is the players just staring at each other feinting an attack, then going for parry but feinting that.

But ok, dude.

Every single feint in the game has a different timing to feint the attack, Not only that some characters like nobushi and shield users can even feint light attacks.

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 09:33 AM
Every single feint in the game has a different timing to feint the attack, Not only that some characters like nobushi and shield users can even feint light attacks.

But they never get beyond a certain point, and if they DO then the attack will be thrown out.

Sure there's a chance an experienced player will fall for them, just like there's a chance GBs will go through if you spam them hard enough, but the fact that there's no opening on these characters full stop unless they make a mistake is part of the issue with them.

Phallicmenace
02-26-2017, 09:45 AM
But they never get beyond a certain point, and if they DO then the attack will be thrown out.

Sure there's a chance an experienced player will fall for them, just like there's a chance GBs will go through if you spam them hard enough, but the fact that there's no opening on these characters full stop unless they make a mistake is part of the issue with them.

So a side attack is a full commit from the Orochi player, so if the Orochi gets feinted they CANNOT feint the side attack, getting blocked at the very least and at worst a full wall bang combo. Orochi makes 1 one mistake and they pretty much die, while the other player is in the same situation as them but with more health and more options like unblockables, full guards and other tech while the Orochi has literally nothing unique since other assassins have the side dodge attack anyway.

Rump_Buffalo
02-26-2017, 09:47 AM
Orochi's side dodge slash is gonna get some type of nerf cause of how oppressive and safe it currently is. While the Conqueror is going to be nerfed for how defensively oppressive he is. Assuming none of the current gameplay mechanics are changed that would have a significant impact on how they currently play as. Anyone else agree or disagree?

Is the peacekeeper not in that same boat?


@phallicmenace

But... orochi's can just light attack anyone throwing a heavy and hit them before the heavy or any feint would land. They can dodge attack lights freely for free damage and iframe...

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 09:51 AM
So a side attack is a full commit from the Orochi player, so if the Orochi gets feinted they CANNOT feint the side attack, getting blocked at the very least and at worst a full wall bang combo. Orochi makes 1 one mistake and they pretty much die, while the other player is in the same situation as them but with more health and more options like unblockables, full guards and other tech while the Orochi has literally nothing unique since other assassins have the side dodge attack anyway.

"a full wall bang combo" Define that, because the only characters I can assume you mean are Conqueror and Warden, in which case just dodge again lol.
"Orochi makes 1 mistake and they pretty much die" Straight up wrong, they only have like 20 less HP than most other characters.
"more options like unblockables" which are mostly pretty useless unless, again, the Orochi screws up and somehow doesn't parry or dodge the extremely telegraphed unblockable
"literally nothing unique" Deflect, guaranteed second high light, unblockable light from deflect.

Alchemist-21-
02-26-2017, 09:52 AM
But they never get beyond a certain point, and if they DO then the attack will be thrown out.

Sure there's a chance an experienced player will fall for them, just like there's a chance GBs will go through if you spam them hard enough, but the fact that there's no opening on these characters full stop unless they make a mistake is part of the issue with them.

Isn't that part of being skilled though? If they don't make mistakes then they're skilled enough not to. If they put in something that's guaranteed to work with no counter to it then people would just spam that and it would be broken. Guard Breaks are more likely to go through when the enemy isn't expecting them, so I would try doing something to make them not think the GB is coming.

Oakleaf__Ranger
02-26-2017, 09:52 AM
So a side attack is a full commit from the Orochi player, so if the Orochi gets feinted they CANNOT feint the side attack, getting blocked at the very least and at worst a full wall bang combo. Orochi makes 1 one mistake and they pretty much die, while the other player is in the same situation as them but with more health and more options like unblockables, full guards and other tech while the Orochi has literally nothing unique since other assassins have the side dodge attack anyway.

His side attack dodge might as well be an unblockable because unless you parry it I haven't found anything that can beat it or punish it even if you block it. The only time I have beaten it without a parry is because I throw out an attack and they started their's way too late when they could have at the very least easily dodge or block it.

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 09:54 AM
Isn't that part of being skilled though? If they don't make mistakes then they're skilled enough not to. If they put in something that's guaranteed to work with no counter to it then people would just spam that and it would be broken. Guard Breaks are more likely to go through when the enemy isn't expecting them, so I would try doing something to make them not think the GB is coming.

That's exactly why I said they're especially ridiculous if the player knows what they're doing.

If a Conqueror goes for his shieldbash and misses, there's an opening. If an Orochi doesn't get parried, there's never an opening, is essentially the problem here.

Oakleaf__Ranger
02-26-2017, 10:07 AM
Is the peacekeeper not in that same boat?

I'm like 99% percent sure PK is not. PK can only do that with a heavy dodge attack. Its much more telegraphed, slower, and actually punishable. I'm not sure if every hero can punish it on block though. Its slow enough that you punish it if they are just throwing it like whatever or spamming it. So basically the rule of thumb (at least for me) is to only throw it out during a mix up or if you have a read on the other person. If they try to follow it up with another you have quite bit reaction time to decide how you to handle/punish it. I at the very least can punish it very easily if just spammed unlike the Orochi's version of it.

Phallicmenace
02-26-2017, 10:17 AM
"a full wall bang combo" Define that, because the only characters I can assume you mean are Conqueror and Warden, in which case just dodge again lol.
"Orochi makes 1 mistake and they pretty much die" Straight up wrong, they only have like 20 less HP than most other characters.
"more options like unblockables" which are mostly pretty useless unless, again, the Orochi screws up and somehow doesn't parry or dodge the extremely telegraphed unblockable
"literally nothing unique" Deflect, guaranteed second high light, unblockable light from deflect.

Warden and warlord are regarded as some of the strongest if not the strongest in the game right now with the insane pressure they bring from unblockables, "which are mostly pretty useless" according to you, there are other examples, but these are the strongest obviously. The wall combos I'm talking about are when you get thrown into a wall and are forced to eat a full combo (Like shugoki bear hug or warden mixup among others) and almost every character has them and at the bare minimum you will get hit by an overhead.

Phallicmenace
02-26-2017, 10:21 AM
Isn't that part of being skilled though? If they don't make mistakes then they're skilled enough not to. If they put in something that's guaranteed to work with no counter to it then people would just spam that and it would be broken. Guard Breaks are more likely to go through when the enemy isn't expecting them, so I would try doing something to make them not think the GB is coming.

Everything in the game has a counter and the side attacks are a part of that. We have already seen some tournaments with people who have been hitting this game hard since closed beta and almost nobody brought Orochi to any of them and when they did they got DOMINATED because these players don't get hit by more than 1-2 side attacks like lesser experienced players.

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 10:23 AM
Warden and warlord are regarded as some of the strongest if not the strongest in the game right now with the insane pressure they bring from unblockables, "which are mostly pretty useless" according to you, there are other examples, but these are the strongest obviously. The wall combos I'm talking about are when you get thrown into a wall and are forced to eat a full combo (Like shugoki bear hug or warden mixup among others) and almost every character has them and at the bare minimum you will get hit by an overhead.

So their shoves, not unblockables specifically, you mean. (I get that they are in fact unblockable, but for the sake of differentiating I'll call them shoves) Which are easily dodged by literally any of the assassins, and the Warden can't cancel into GB if you're throwing an attack out, and since y'know, you're an assassin you will be.

And the wall forced to eat a full combo is again, ONLY if you parry the Orochi, and ONLY then. He can spam it endlessly UNLESS you parry it, which is EXACTLY the problem. You don't seem to be getting it. The Assassins (some more than others) DON'T have openings unless you parry them. That is the issue with them and the issue with the current "meta" or whatever you want to call it.

And again, it's straight up not enough to kill them unless the Shugoki is on critical health, and Embraces you, or something outlandish.

You're not arguing any points you're just pointing out imbalances in OTHER characters and using that to justify the imbalance of Assassins.

And even THEN the shoves and such are subject to things like latency among other issues, that doesn't mean Assassins are fine because Warden happens to have a Vortex.

TCTF_SWAT
02-26-2017, 10:29 AM
The cockroach si the weakest assassin though. If anything they'll be buffing him.

Phallicmenace
02-26-2017, 11:07 AM
So their shoves, not unblockables specifically, you mean. (I get that they are in fact unblockable, but for the sake of differentiating I'll call them shoves) Which are easily dodged by literally any of the assassins, and the Warden can't cancel into GB if you're throwing an attack out, and since y'know, you're an assassin you will be.

And the wall forced to eat a full combo is again, ONLY if you parry the Orochi, and ONLY then. He can spam it endlessly UNLESS you parry it, which is EXACTLY the problem. You don't seem to be getting it. The Assassins (some more than others) DON'T have openings unless you parry them. That is the issue with them and the issue with the current "meta" or whatever you want to call it.

And again, it's straight up not enough to kill them unless the Shugoki is on critical health, and Embraces you, or something outlandish.

You're not arguing any points you're just pointing out imbalances in OTHER characters and using that to justify the imbalance of Assassins.

And even THEN the shoves and such are subject to things like latency among other issues, that doesn't mean Assassins are fine because Warden happens to have a Vortex.

This will never end so let's just make a real bet about the patch then? Put your money where your mouth is. If you don't want to do that then just go watch some footage of some pro players. I don't care either way because Orochi will never be nerfed since he's barely an above average character.

Gensui.Musashi
02-26-2017, 11:08 AM
jesus, they still cry about fast characters... what will happen when the ninjas come out at night.

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 11:11 AM
This will never end so let's just make a real bet about the patch then? Put your money where your mouth is. If you don't want to do that then just go watch some footage of some pro players. I don't care either way because Orochi will never be nerfed since he's barely an above average character.

I'm alright with agreeing to disagree.
I'm unsure what approach Ubi will take towards balancing, but I'd like to think his heavies or dodge in general will be nerfed.

ArcheDemonm
02-26-2017, 11:26 AM
Orochi is on the weakest end of a spectrum due to lack of the moves they have. Unlike PK or Warlord, they cant just FA spam you, since orochi side fast attacks are so telegraphic they can easily be parried on reaction. They have a lot of dmg for moves they can execute, however they severely lack in health too. Nowhere near as strong or versatile then a warlord or a warden.

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 11:48 AM
Orochi is on the weakest end of a spectrum due to lack of the moves they have. Unlike PK or Warlord, they cant just FA spam you, since orochi side fast attacks are so telegraphic they can easily be parried on reaction. They have a lot of dmg for moves they can execute, however they severely lack in health too. Nowhere near as strong or versatile then a warlord or a warden.

They have 20 less HP than a Warlord. That's maybe 1 less attack, provided it lands.

Warden and Warlord are easily more versatile, though.