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View Full Version : EARLY MODEL LW AND VVS AIRCRAFT



SteelMag12
02-09-2004, 10:31 AM
hey......new here

since we have way too many variants of LW 109's 190's and yaks and such why not add the pre-war Bf-109a,b,c and d models to the game it would give us a chance for some spanish civil war action (speciall if we have i-15,cr 32 and bristol bulldogs and such) that and the 190a-1 with the 4 mg's and 2 cannons, that would be nice, oh yeah and how about makin this game so it runs on less than perfect computers ive got a 2.5ghz p4 with 256mb of ram and a ****ty intel "64mb" graphics chip and i can bareley run this game

SteelMag12
02-09-2004, 10:31 AM
hey......new here

since we have way too many variants of LW 109's 190's and yaks and such why not add the pre-war Bf-109a,b,c and d models to the game it would give us a chance for some spanish civil war action (speciall if we have i-15,cr 32 and bristol bulldogs and such) that and the 190a-1 with the 4 mg's and 2 cannons, that would be nice, oh yeah and how about makin this game so it runs on less than perfect computers ive got a 2.5ghz p4 with 256mb of ram and a ****ty intel "64mb" graphics chip and i can bareley run this game

LuftKuhMist
02-09-2004, 11:26 AM
I run it fairly well on my 933MHZ, I get occasionnals stutters in single player but not that much.

Buy yourself memory and a decent video card.

SteelMag12
02-09-2004, 12:20 PM
yeah i know......stupid video card mostly, whoever let intel start makin onboard video deserves to be shot........but yeah what about the pre war planes.......as far as i know if they were included this would be the only sim with thos planes in them......and the 109 with 4 mg's would be perfect for arenas with early war planes like the PZL and i153's

A.K.Davis
02-09-2004, 01:21 PM
I-15 was recently started (but still far from flyable):

http://www.flight-lieutenant-hardball.com/Misc/I-15_04Feb2004_1.jpg

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

LuftKuhMist
02-09-2004, 02:33 PM
Shame I don't have 3DSmax 3.1...

SteelMag12
02-09-2004, 05:57 PM
Nice........anyone have any info on the early 109's and 190's?.....i remember the b model 109s having 2 7.92mm mg's and a Jumo engine but i dont know the specifics...

JG7_Rall
02-09-2004, 07:34 PM
lol, the 2 mg 7.92 mm in the Emils, Fredrichs, and G2's don't do anything now, a plane with four of them will do little better.

Wolf_Fangs1381
02-09-2004, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
lol, the 2 mg 7.92 mm in the Emils, Fredrichs, and G2's don't do anything now, a plane with four of them will do little better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello JG7_Rall,

Thats not necessarily true. I managed to down four P-51D-5s with a Bf-109G-6s 7.92mm machine guns. I tore off their wings on all four kills. And no I didn't use the nose cannon for those kills. I was out of cannon rounds because I used them on earlier kills. I've also gotten kills with the 7.92mm machine guns on other aircraft like Yaks and La5s. But I do think they are a bit undermodelled. Of course four 7.92mm machine guns would be better,but what german aircraft has four of them? I am asking because I am not sure. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif =S=

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A.K.Davis
02-09-2004, 10:49 PM
G6 has 2 x 13mm MGs, and they have HE rounds, not just solid AP. Still not much, but they do okay. Now, taking out stuff with 2 x 7.62mm is really difficult, but not impossible. The key is too shoot from deflection, not dead six. Rifle caliber stuff has little effect when hitting from that angle. However, if the aircraft you are shooting is one of those with simple DMs, 7.62mm can be totally pointless.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

JG77_Tintin
02-10-2004, 03:02 AM
I assume that FB, being originally an 1941- 45 Eastern Front oriented game, that it only modelled those Bf 109's within the parameters of the campaign. The E4 was still in widespread use at the start of Barbarossa in June 41. Roughly 2/3's were F models and the remaining 1/3 were E's. True, some E3's were still in service as fighter bombers, but essentially they had the same armament and the cockpit armour would have been upgraded to the E4 standard. Even heard of E1's still about, in Norway, I think. With the Russians, it was a different, as they still had I-5, I-15, I-152 & I-16 type 5 to 10's flying frontline combat duties. I'd personally love to see the early Bf 109's for earlier scenarios. The E1 had 4 machineguns. Never heard of an A model, but there were V-1 to V-7 prototypes before the B series. As has been stated, the B had two machinegunes and the C & D models generally had four. The Bf 109 was progresively tested and improved over its life. So you will find references to assorted early variations like C's with five guns, D's with the DB 600 engine, canon and the E2 with the 20mm in the spinner. But to be fair, would also like to see the Heinkel He 51, He 112, Arado 68's & Bf 110B to cover all the early LW fighter inventory.

LeLv28_Masi
02-10-2004, 03:04 AM
Your amoount of RAM is too low, I'd recommend 1GHz.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SteelMag12:
hey......new here

since we have way too many variants of LW 109's 190's and yaks and such why not add the pre-war Bf-109a,b,c and d models to the game it would give us a chance for some spanish civil war action (speciall if we have i-15,cr 32 and bristol bulldogs and such) that and the 190a-1 with the 4 mg's and 2 cannons, that would be nice, oh yeah and how about makin this game so it runs on less than perfect computers ive got a 2.5ghz p4 with 256mb of ram and a ****ty intel "64mb" graphics chip and i can bareley run this game<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SteelMag12
02-10-2004, 09:43 AM
yeah didnt they try to put a 20mm in the spinner of the early (c d and e i think) 109's but it jammed alot so they replaced it with another mg.......bringing the total up to 5 guns...

yeah any of you remember the mg's in the original il-2.......utter crap

p1ngu666
02-10-2004, 01:43 PM
they looked different from emil btw
by a fair amount

http://www.pingu666.etglobalsolution.co.uk/sig/mysig3.jpg

WWMaxGunz
02-10-2004, 02:43 PM
7.92's made better effect on early opponents, some of which were not metal skinned and lightly armored.

How about those German biplanes used in the Spanish Civil War? Were they Henshels or Heinkels? Were there others? Not all German fighters were 109's there nor were all Soviet fighters I-16's.

Another name for brush wars is weapons tests, at least for the outsiders.


Neal

LEXX_Luthor
02-10-2004, 03:05 PM
Yes, He~51 and Hs~123 biplanes.

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noshens
02-10-2004, 04:12 PM
Most of the 1930-40 planes had machine guns. I have no idea how they managed to dogfight in those. I hope Oleg will fix the mg damagaging abilities with the Ace since we are getting more of those "crap" planes. There even was a mid war model of Ki with 2x7mm mg, I mean if mgs were as crappy as they are in game nobody in his right mind would make a plane with those.

WWMaxGunz
02-11-2004, 12:56 AM
There may be a reason why most pilots didn't get any kills in the war besides them getting killed first. Aiming is not easy unless you are in a sim with unrealistic gunnery.


Neal

JG77_Tintin
02-11-2004, 04:05 AM
The Germans first used Heinkel 51's with their Condor Legion in Spain in 1936. Then they sent a few Bf 109B's, as the He 51 was no match for the I-15 and I-16 type 5, supplied by the Soviets. They also tested the He 112V-3, which the Spanish prefered. Because of the limited number of servicable 109's, Rotte formations (elements) were adopted in place of Vics. As time went on, newer versions of 109's, I-152 and I-16 type 10 were supplied and tested in battle. The Germans even rotated the pilots in Spain to gain battle experience. Some versions of the Bf 109C had five machine guns. The Bf 109D was supposed to have a fuel injected engine like the E, but this engine was not ready, so the Jumbo 210D of the C model was used. A few E2's were built with a third 20mm in the nose spinner, but vibration made this unreliable. They ditched this idea until the advent of the F model. Thats why the prop spinner on the E7's are different to the earlier E models. I noticed your discussion on the effectiveness of machineguns. Remember that self sealing tanks and pilot armour were not very common in late 1930's fighters. A Bf109E4 has better pilot protection than a Bf109E3. Same with the Bf110C4 and Ju87B2 to their earlier subtypes. Was illustrated in subsequent engagements of Swiss and Yugoslav E3's with the Luftwaffe and even later on, with US aircraft. The Germans had two prewar specifications for divebombers. Three if you include the Ju88. The first contact was won the Henshel 123 and this was tested in Spain. The later contract was won by the Ju87A (Anton) and five of these were also used in Spain. Some Ju87B1's (Bertha) were also tested in the late stages of this war. While the Ju87 replaced the Hs123 in the divebomber outfits, the Hs123 was still good enough to remain on the frontline till about 1944. No more left and out of production. Love to see Spain in the game. Bring it on.

Aaron_GT
02-11-2004, 03:18 PM
I can take planes down offline with 2 7.62mm,
AKD, e.g. Ju52s from dead six. You have to get
in damn close, though, with short convergence
set, just like in real life, probably. I wouldn't want to do it with multiple
opponents around or online, though!

It's only a bit harder dead six on a Ju52
than with a Hurricane I. You don't have
problems with relative roll, convergence, etc
with two nose mounted guns in the same way.
If you are taking snapshots against fighters
in complex combat, or high speed passes against
bombers, it's another matter entirely, though.

With the Ju52s current modelled you can hide
under the tail and get close. If we had the
Spanish Civil War bomber versions modelled
with the dustbin ventral turret it would be
another matter! I can see why, given the
increasing defensive armament of bombers in
the 1930s, the RAF 8 gun fighters were considered necessary to allow those snapshots
to be effective. It seems that RAF doctrine
in 1940 was still the slow approach more suited
to twin nose gun fighters like the Bulldog,
though.

A.K.Davis
02-11-2004, 05:01 PM
Depends on the plane. Stuff with less armor is not too bad with 7.7mm. Just for kicks, I tried taking on some AI P-40s in a Zero using only the 2 x 7.7mm. I knocked down two of them with deflection shots into the engine and cockpit. Deflection is the key.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

JG77_Tintin
02-12-2004, 04:07 AM
Recently I set up a DDG May, 1940 campaign using Ardennes map, which illustrates the effectiveness of the Bf109E4's against aircraft that it historically encountered. With full real settings, no icons or externals, on average got at least one kill per mission. At times, I'm crap at flying and gunnery, but find planning and patience is the key. Also a good reason to try out some of the great skins that third parties put out. Remember no yellow noses on the 109's at this stage of the war. Try flying the Bf109E4, with a mix of Bf110C4, Ju87B2, He111H2, Ju52 & Fi156 for the Germans. British have Blenheim 1 & 4 & Hurricane 1. French have Morane MS406, C47 (to represent DC3) Belgians with Hurricane 1 (yes I know they had fixed pitched props and 4x0.5 Brownings) and U2's as two seat Dutch Fokker CV biplanes. The Bf109E4 is great for slashing attacks from above. Always keep up the speed and height advantage, one pass and away to setup for another attack. The canons are good but you only have 60 shells. Found that using headon or front quarter passes from above, plus deflection, even with machineguns only, can be very effective in bringing down Hurricanes and Moranes. If you maintain height and speed advantage the 109's superior speed and climb should keep you safe. The allied fighters engines and pilots are vulnerable from the front quarter. Just get their engines smoking, then select another undamaged target, it will fall in a short while. If you get bounced, quickly dive and pick up speed to get away. With its wing design and float carb, a Hurricane isn't going to stay with you long. The Morane is even slower again. The guns on the Bf110C4 are positively fearsome against Blenheims and everything else, but it is easy meat for the fighters. Hope this helps, happy hunting.

Aaron_GT
02-12-2004, 06:25 AM
True, AKD. The Ju52 basically has no armour.

Downing something with only two rifle calibre
nose guns in something like an I-16 or 109E
in a dogfight with another moderately tough
fighter is a very different proposition to
downing an unarmoured slow moving Ju52.

Downing an He111, with much better rear
protection is also a different matter to the
Ju52, as you can't site close in on the low
six and blast away and have to use higher
deflection shots, spreading the rounds out
over a wide area, making it hard to shoot
down an He111.

If you hit the He111 with 12.7mm nose guns (e.g.
Mig-3) in the wing root, it's a different
story.

Aaron_GT
02-12-2004, 06:27 AM
I think 4 12.7mm guns on early Hurricanes
and Spitfires would have been rather better
than 8 .303s. Shame it wasn't tried by the
RAF.

JG77_Tintin
02-13-2004, 03:34 AM
Actually, the Belgians didn't get much of a chance to use their Hurricanes. Although they considered themselves neutral, the Germans didn't. The Hurricanes of 2nd Escadrille, based at Diest airfield, were wiped out on the ground in only a few minutes on the morning of May 10, 1940. Have read references from Adolf Galand bouncing some Belgian Hurricanes and it wasn't complimentary. Performance would have suffered from the fixed pitched propeller and low octane fuel used. Like you, I also think that the 4x0.5 Brownings armament is more effective then the standard 8x0.303 that was normally used.