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View Full Version : A Simple Solution to the Defensive Meta (that isn't going anywhere)



Gubermensch
02-25-2017, 07:25 AM
Chip damage

IMPORTANT: The problem addressed is not as critical to Warlord, Warden, Shugoki or Conqueror because they have broken mechanics the rest of the classes don't.

edit: tl;dr - Players gain advantage by turtling and looking for one specific attack to parry. Adding chip damage will resonate throughout combat and bring it back to the core of the game. Attacks are more potent > all parrying attempts increase > feints are more effective > feint punishes become more prevalent.

An opponent can gain a significant advantage by turtling. There is a smaller incentive to attack first, since the defensive reward is greater. This negatively impacts the feel of the game. A simple solution to encourage the dynamic exchanges intended by the designers is a slight increase in chip damage. This damage can be fine-tuned to accommodate the average attack frequency of various heros (PK chip damage should be smaller than Shugoki's).

A blocked hit should still do 5-20% of the damage of an attack, where a parry would result in zero damage and the same mechanic currently in play. This significantly increases the incentive to attack, diminishes the incentive to turtle, and increases the amount of parrying players will attempt, and therefore the parry baiting and punishes (ie. Feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, interrupt with gb; or feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, light attack; etc.).

Boom, meta equilibrium.

edit: in addition to chip damage, enabling later feinting (actions that follow later feints should be slower) might be a great idea.

Update: Meta Snapshot, 1v1 tournament today, Top 16


https://clips.twitch.tv/kingrichard15/AmusedGrasshopperRuleFive

Black_Star300
02-25-2017, 07:30 AM
No, as a conqueror main. I have to play smart and not get over aggressive on these assassin classes. It's what being a heavy does. Counter attackers need someone to attack. This game is a chess game. Eventually someone will get impatient and attack. Hell, I'll sit the whole 5 mins if need be, but you know what. That person will eventually get too impatient and attack and that's when you punish. If I try to initiate a heavy with an assassin I'll get severely sidestepped and parried and combo-ed like crazy and I need to be punished for playing my class?

NO, just no.

Snow901
02-25-2017, 07:38 AM
I hear your complaint about a "defensive" meta, and I point you to play an assassin class if you prefer to play more offensive. A good player will be able to break through someone's defense if they know how to play their character well enough. It's all about mindgames really.

Gubermensch
02-25-2017, 07:43 AM
No, as a conqueror main. I have to play smart and not get over aggressive on these assassin classes. It's what being a heavy does. Counter attackers need someone to attack. This game is a chess game. Eventually someone will get impatient and attack. Hell, I'll sit the whole 5 mins if need be, but you know what. That person will eventually get too impatient and attack and that's when you punish. If I try to initiate a heavy with an assassin I'll get severely sidestepped and parried and combo-ed like crazy and I need to be punished for playing my class?

NO, just no.

You've brought up a few things, the conqueror class (Which needs a significant buff to attacking and a nerf to an unpunishable shield bash), and counterattacking.

Please don't knee-jerk dismiss this because in your mind you are imaging the assassins being rewarded due to the fact that they attack more frequently. This can be factored in to the chip damage values. Be flexible here...

What if the PK does 1% damage per chip vs. 20% by the conqueror? Would you maintain that this is balanced? I doubt it. So there is a way to make this work, and achieve the goal of maintaining the chess game you describe, but remove the incentive to be inactive in combat (And make it more fun and challenging).

One can come up with a formula to determine the chip damage that factors in attack speed (Lowers chip damage), stamina pool size (Lower chip damage), stamina usage per attack (Raises chip damage), overall damage, etc.

Black_Star300
02-25-2017, 07:46 AM
I hear your complaint about a "defensive" meta, and I point you to play an assassin class if you prefer to play more offensive. A good player will be able to break through someone's defense if they know how to play their character well enough. It's all about mindgames really.


You've brought up a few things, the conqueror class (Which needs a significant buff to attacking and a nerf to an unpunishable shield block), and counterattacking.

Please don't knee-jerk dismiss this because in your mind you are imaging the assassins being rewarded due to the fact that they attack more frequently. This can be factored in to the chip damage values. Be flexible here...

What if the PK does 1% damage per chip vs. 20% by the conqueror? Would you maintain that this is balanced? I doubt it. So there is a way to make this work, and achieve the goal of maintaining the chess game you describe, but remove the incentive to be inactive in combat (And make it more fun and challenging).

One can come up with a formula to determine the chip damage that factors in attack speed (Lowers chip damage), stamina pool size (Lower chip damage), stamina usage per attack (Raises chip damage), overall damage, etc.

We don't need an attack buff lol....That would make it EVEN more damage and I should know. Yes we are slow and heavy, but if I can land a nice hit I can take away about half your health. You wanna buff that buddy really? And like the person said right after me. You can find a way through it. I don't know what to say bud. I'm not the best conq out there and I can get punished out of my so called "turtle shell". I'm not gonna tell you to get good, but honestly the one thing you DON'T wanna do is buff the conqueror and I play this class and can say that its fine. I'd take more damage because then once I do land a nice hit you can just die in 1 shot. GG

Gubermensch
02-25-2017, 07:47 AM
I hear your complaint about a "defensive" meta, and I point you to play an assassin class if you prefer to play more offensive. A good player will be able to break through someone's defense if they know how to play their character well enough. It's all about mindgames really.

I do play an assassin class. Players, particularly in a dueling context, at high level, gain benefit by turtling. I suspect this will be fairly obvious to most good players, but not all, particularly if they play a class that can open players up and keep the game moving (like Warden/Warlord).

Gubermensch
02-25-2017, 08:01 AM
We don't need an attack buff lol....That would make it EVEN more damage and I should know. Yes we are slow and heavy, but if I can land a nice hit I can take away about half your health. You wanna buff that buddy really? And like the person said right after me. You can find a way through it. I don't know what to say bud. I'm not the best conq out there and I can get punished out of my so called "turtle shell". I'm not gonna tell you to get good, but honestly the one thing you DON'T wanna do is buff the conqueror and I play this class and can say that its fine. I'd take more damage because then once I do land a nice hit you can just die in 1 shot. GG

Look Bud, I would be happy to duel you and win 15 games in a row, but I am not sure that will persuade you. We all have our perspectives (and biases), informed by our own experiences in game. Mine being - great players can absolutely shut down an attacker, with a couple class exceptions (mentioned prior), should they focus entirely on defense. Coupled with this defensive posturing, they aim to monopolize the feint reward (The best players of course able to cancel any failed parry in real time). As long as they manage counter gb'ing (Which most great players can 99% of the time), they gain advantage.

Now that's fair enough, what we're arguing about now is whether or not this makes the game fun. You have already stated you're willing to wait an entire round without swinging. I think that makes the game boring, and I know some agree with me... a very slight adjustment can encourage an active exchange (no doubt the intention of the creators), class balance can be achieved, and the meta balanced.

Black_Star300
02-25-2017, 08:07 AM
Look Bud, I would be happy to duel you and win 15 games in a row, but I am not sure that will persuade you. We all have our perspectives, informed by our own experiences in game. Mine being - great players can absolutely shut down an attacker, with a couple class exceptions (mentioned prior), should they focus entirely on defense. Coupled with this defensive posturing, they aim to monopolize the feint reward (The best players of course able to cancel any failed parry in real time). As long as they manage counter gb'ing (Which most great players can 99% of the time), they gain advantage.

Now that's fair enough, what we're arguing about now is whether or not this makes the game fun. You have already stated you're willing to wait an entire round without swinging. I think that makes the game boring, and I know some agree with me... a very slight adjustment can encourage an active exchange and a class balance can be achieved.

I would hold off bold claims. If you're on PS4 let's duel and see how good you are. Also, yea I'm willing to wait. It isn't boring. It's reading your opponent and waiting for them to do something. It does say in the character DEFENSE right? Some classes say "agile" or "counter attacker" or "harasser" and I'm telling you now berzerkers can F me up. Not sure you play that class, but honestly in war you think people are just throwing themselves at the enemy or you think they bunkered down for days or weeks waiting for the right moment? It's 5 minutes and if you go all 5 rounds at 5 minutes its 25minutes. Is our generation so quick to need things over NOW? If you're an assassin class put the fire down fast. I've been killed in mere seconds by assassin classes cuz they put the hurt down and so fast too.

But I don't even use superior block and honestly think its a waste of my stamina unless I'm in a huge gank, but yea if you're having issues with this "turtling" then I doubt you can beat me 15 rounds like you claim. Also conquerors can't feint so you can see my attacks coming ALL day. If you can't deal with that then I'm sorry....I feel really bad for you.

Gubermensch
02-25-2017, 08:11 AM
I would hold off bold claims. If you're on PS4 let's duel and see how good you are. Also, yea I'm willing to wait. It isn't boring. It's reading your opponent and waiting for them to do something. It does say in the character DEFENSE right? Some classes say "agile" or "counter attacker" or "harasser" and I'm telling you now berzerkers can F me up. Not sure you play that class, but honestly in war you think people are just throwing themselves at the enemy or you think they bunkered down for days or weeks waiting for the right moment? It's 5 minutes and if you go all 5 rounds at 5 minutes its 25minutes. Is our generation so quick to need things over NOW? If you're an assassin class put the fire down fast. I've been killed in mere seconds by assassin classes cuz they put the hurt down and so fast too.

But I don't even use superior block and honestly think its a waste of my stamina unless I'm in a huge gank, but yea if you're having issues with this "turtling" then I doubt you can beat me 15 rounds like you claim. Also conquerors can't feint so you can see my attacks coming ALL day. If you can't deal with that then I'm sorry....I feel really bad for you.

You're a console pleb. This explains a lot. We'll have to wait for ranked to come out, and grant authority to arguments based on player skill.

We clearly disagree about the fun-factor in doing nothing for 25 minutes.

Black_Star300
02-25-2017, 08:13 AM
You're a console pleb. This explains a lot. We'll have to wait for ranked to come out, and grant authority to arguments based on player skill.

We clearly disagree about the fun-factor in doing nothing for 25 minutes.

Oh nice look at you calling others "pleb" ha. You're just a stand up guy that probably can't beat heavies or defense classes so you come here to cry and whine because you can't win even on PC master race. God...you're just...you're something lol

Gubermensch
02-25-2017, 08:18 AM
Oh nice look at you calling others "pleb" ha. You're just a stand up guy that probably can't beat heavies or defense classes so you come here to cry and whine because you can't win even on PC master race. God...you're just...you're something lol

I'm just teasing dude. People that refer to others as bud in an attempt to diminish them and their argument deserve a little poking at. The not so subtle 'get good' remarks deserve the same. But no worries, I expect no less from a videogame forum.

You disagree, fair enough!

LeonaBott
02-25-2017, 08:58 AM
An opponent can gain a significant advantage by turtling. There is no incentive to attack first, since the defensive reward is greater. This negatively impacts the feel of the game. A simple solution to encourage the dynamic exchanges intended by the designers is a slight increase in chip damage. This damage can be fine-tuned to accommodate the average attack frequency of various heros (PK chip damage should be smaller than Shugoki's).

A blocked hit should still do 10-20% of the damage of an attack, where a parry would result in zero damage and the same mechanic currently in play. This significantly increases the incentive to attack, diminishes the incentive to turtle, and increases the amount of parrying players will attempt, and therefore the parry baiting and punishes (ie. Feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, interrupt with gb; or feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, light attack; etc.).
Boom, meta equilibrium.

As a Nobushi player, the only option against assassin classes is to be overly defenseive because of how easy it is to punish aggression.

Against other classes, it's okay because I know I won't get punished so hard for going on the offense

Gubermensch
02-25-2017, 01:07 PM
As a Nobushi player, the only option against assassin classes is to be overly defenseive because of how easy it is to punish aggression.

Against other classes, it's okay because I know I won't get punished so hard for going on the offense

I understand. Classes with the capacity to attack frequently need to have chip reduced. This doesn't change the fact that all classes need a greater incentive to attack, in lieu of react defensively.

Superben_24
02-25-2017, 04:53 PM
An opponent can gain a significant advantage by turtling. There is no incentive to attack first, since the defensive reward is greater. This negatively impacts the feel of the game. A simple solution to encourage the dynamic exchanges intended by the designers is a slight increase in chip damage. This damage can be fine-tuned to accommodate the average attack frequency of various heros (PK chip damage should be smaller than Shugoki's).

A blocked hit should still do 10-20% of the damage of an attack, where a parry would result in zero damage and the same mechanic currently in play. This significantly increases the incentive to attack, diminishes the incentive to turtle, and increases the amount of parrying players will attempt, and therefore the parry baiting and punishes (ie. Feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, interrupt with gb; or feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, light attack; etc.).
Boom, meta equilibrium.

wouldn t that buff the assasin classes since they don t really use blocks? so you just decrease the defence of the classes that rely on blocking?
dodging is really strong already . and assasins already have a good offence.
but the idea is not that bad and could actually be the solution to the balancing and meta issues.
my suggestions:
- heavy attacks should deal significant chip damage,because they can easily be parried or dodged. and light attacks should deal nearly no chip damage .
- chip damage can t kill. (it would feel wrong to be able to kill s.o. with a blocked attack.)
-assasins shouldn t be able to use all their stamina and still just escape. enable sprinting in defense mode. so that every class can attack when the enemy forgot to have a look at their stamina .
- increase chip damage when the enemy has no stamina
- dodging without stamina should be slower and riskier.

Hogmin
02-25-2017, 04:56 PM
The problem that arises from your idea is that Dodge instantly becomes the next best thing for avoiding damage....And we know how Assassins have the best most abusable dodge in the game.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 02:57 AM
@Superben_24 Assassins do block all the time albeit less frequently than other classes, this can be balanced via class-specific chip damage values. Again, assassins that can spam should gain less from chip damage. I think the dodge mechanic is fine as is. Assassins dictate when the engagement happens, which can be frustrating, but also can be punishable if the right read is made. I agree heavy attacks should deal larger chip damage (See other variables in my equation post). I think chip should kill - it adds a tense, high stakes parry baiting situation for a player about to fall - which makes for an epic ending to a fight.

@Skvillritz Dodging can be punished by anticipating and guard breaking.

Sky-Sweeper
02-26-2017, 03:12 AM
It's time to dududu du du duel!

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 03:17 AM
Great point. This discussion and all balance discussions should be centered around dueling. We're talking about 2 different games when factoring in 4v4....

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 03:22 AM
If we accept the premise of the defensive meta being dominant in Duels/Brawls, the only feasible short to mid term solution is to change the objective from killing the opponent to a CTF or KOTH type of model.

Basically this way people would be forced to attack or lose. Risk and reward comes back into it.

It's not a perfect solution because I know people just want go Duel and kill, but at least this way we get an outcome and it would be good to watch if we're talking Esports, tournaments etc.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 03:24 AM
Interesting. Can you break down the CTF and KOTH models? I'm unfamiliar...

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 03:29 AM
As in capture the flag or king of the hill.

The technology is already there since we have capping zones in Dominion.

Put one capture zone in a wide open space on each Duel/Brawl map. If neither player kills each other before the time limit, whoever owns this Zone at the end of the Round wins.

The timer randomly cuts out between 4 and 5 minutes so players don't make last second dashes for the capture zone.

This also addresses the issue of lame Assassins running away from slower classes and running down the clock so they don't die.

This provides a solution to the imperfect fight model if we want to get results in each Round.

Delectable_Sin
02-26-2017, 03:31 AM
No incentive to attack? You have to attack to win smart people...

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 03:34 AM
I should elaborate a bit on the above...

Capturing the Zone should take about 10 seconds on a timer. During this time your health (but not Stamina) should be reduced substantially so you are vulnerable to attack.

This encourages fighting. It's risk for reward...if you don't attack the other guy will win because he owns the Zone. But the Zone owner will be defending so it evens out.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 03:35 AM
I think that is a bit elaborate and unnecessary. Can you break down why you think chip damage is inadequate to address the defensive meta problem?

Also, a thread tangent, but since it's coming up so often, I hear loud and clear that assassins are annoying because they have the power to choose when to engage. I don't think they should be hamstrung. What else in your mind would make the movement advantage fair. Something simple like more health?

I duel primarily and do not find retreating assassins to be a problem. Maybe this is a 4v4 thing...

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 03:37 AM
No incentive to attack? You have to attack to win smart people...

The sky is blue. The grass is green. We're in fields of grey, not in black and white. Attacking is needed to obtain a victory, yes. Do you have an incentive to attack, yes. We're talking about a subtle balance in incentives and combat advantages.

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 03:39 AM
The chip damage thing has been suggested many times. There's lots of threads in the Combat & Strategy forum about this.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 03:41 AM
The chip damage thing has been suggested many times. There's lots of threads in the Combat & Strategy forum about this.

I see. Care to summarize why it's inadequate?

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 03:48 AM
My position is the fix lies not in tweaks to the fight model but fixing the objective in Duels and Brawls.

It's too broken. Players can simply turtle, fast assassins run away, all classes can run in circles on loop maps or shield guard/bash classes could stand on a bridge blocking it, stay close to environmental edges if you have a strong push etc...

Players will always be able to figure out a way not to die.

To overcome this inherent flaw in Duels/Brawls, we need a secondary objective. Hence the above proposal.

But I'm all for improving the fight model as well. They're almost separate issues.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 03:53 AM
Hmm. Fair enough, lot's of energy to explain why you don't like an idea. Your gut says objective change, fair enough.

I'd be really interested hearing the thoughts of the engineers/designers at ubisoft. I'm sure this conversation has come up many times from the minds of people working on this 8 hours a day for months. Some lowly intern probably had a great idea to resolve this and got shutdown by the higher heads on the totem pole. Given, so many resources were sent towards a campaign... I wish all of their energy was focused on making a revolutionary fighting game, which for honor is so close to being. Consulting a traditional fighting game pro might be a good idea.... they probably already have...

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 03:58 AM
Not my gut, my brain. :-)

Look, 99% of us want to run up to our opponents and engage until we get an outcome.

But looking beyond that, once we get a ladder/rankings, events with prizemoney etc., we know beyond all doubt a lot of people will "game the game" and do everything they can to avoid dying.

Fixing this has very little to do with the fight model.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 04:05 AM
Oh your brain, eh?! I'll take your word for it. ;)

What about enabling later feints, coupled with chip damage? I'm reading through the 'How to negate the "Never Attack First" Meta' thread in the combat section btw.

Exaffect
02-26-2017, 04:07 AM
It's not a hack n slash game.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 04:18 AM
It's not a hack n slash game.

You don't get it.

Read up here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1575836-How-to-negate-the-quot-Never-Attack-First-quot-Meta

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 04:38 AM
Oh your brain, eh?! I'll take your word for it. ;)

What about enabling later feints, coupled with chip damage? I'm reading through the 'How to negate the "Never Attack First" Meta' thread in the combat section btw.

Sure, I'm not against these suggestions to the fight model for a better fighting experience.

But they won't really address the real problem of ensuring outcomes in Duels/Brawls.

-Players not attacking each other. GG
-Shegoki just stands on a bridge ready to charge. GG
-Assassin classes keep running away until time runs out. GG
-Headbutt/Shoulder bash characters staying near enviromental death areas. GG
-Players running around loop maps to avoid a loss. GG

I'm sure there's many others.

These gameplay issues are every bit as concerning as the fight model issues.

The beauty of having a secondary objective is it addresses nearly all of these issues, gameplay and fight model.

And to fix all of the map, fight model and character-specific issues in Duel/Brawl would be a hell of a lot more work than introducing Zone captures.

SiewcaRaka
02-26-2017, 04:41 AM
Sure, I'm not against these suggestions to the fight model for a better fighting experience.

But they won't really address the real problem of ensuring outcomes in Duels/Brawls.

-Players not attacking each other. GG
-Shegoki just stands on a bridge ready to charge. GG
-Assassin classes keep running away until time runs out. GG
-Headbutt/Shoulder bash characters staying near enviromental death areas. GG
-Players running around loop maps to avoid a loss. GG

I'm sure there's many others.

These gameplay issues are every bit as concerning as the fight model issues.

The beauty of having a secondary objective is it addresses nearly all of these issues, gameplay and fight model.

And to fix all of the map, fight model and character-specific issues in Duel/Brawl would be a hell of a lot more work than introducing Zone captures.

-Go near them faint attack punish them.
-bait charge, move away, punish
-duels and brawls maps are closed so if you can't catch him you suck.
-change your positioning and start dodging.
-Same as assassins.

As you can see eveything can be solved with good ol' "git gud".

Tziwen
02-26-2017, 04:48 AM
Playing as a tank i can tell you that i get smashed by assassins if i happened to play agressive. I take the initiative vs an other tank or a vanguard. Assassins punish you too hard for getting open.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 05:03 AM
Playing as a tank i can tell you that i get smashed by assassins if i happened to play agressive. I take the initiative vs an other tank or a vanguard. Assassins punish you too hard for getting open.

This is true but ironically because of the same problem I'm trying to fix. A lot of the heavies need offensive buffs and nerfs to their broken mechanics (Warlord headbutt, conqueror shield bash spam, etc.). There are numerous overlapping issues here....


But they won't really address the real problem of ensuring outcomes in Duels/Brawls.

-Players not attacking each other. GG
-Shegoki just stands on a bridge ready to charge. GG
-Assassin classes keep running away until time runs out. GG
-Headbutt/Shoulder bash characters staying near enviromental death areas. GG
-Players running around loop maps to avoid a loss. GG

I'm sure there's many others.

These gameplay issues are every bit as concerning as the fight model issues.

The beauty of having a secondary objective is it addresses nearly all of these issues, gameplay and fight model.

And to fix all of the map, fight model and character-specific issues in Duel/Brawl would be a hell of a lot more work than introducing Zone captures.

These are different problems... one's that may need addressing but I'd like to keep this thread about fighting mechanics.

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 05:12 AM
Sure, but to me you're putting the cart before the horse.

If you have a secondary objective, people would attack/fight more out of necessity and a lot of the over-defensiveness would be negated. It would reduce the standoffs massively.

Bye bye defensive meta.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 05:19 AM
I have never encountered an assassin running away until time, and the abuse of environment kills is also very rare and can be fixed with more Shard-like levels. There can also be rules in tournaments banning this behavior. Duels and Brawls don't need an objective, they need refined fighting mechanics (IMO).

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 05:26 AM
I have never encountered an assassin running away until time, and the abuse of environment kills is also very rare and can be fixed with more Shard-like levels. There can also be rules in tournaments banning this behavior. Duels and Brawls don't need an objective, they need refined fighting mechanics (IMO).

Thread by Aarpian, who was runner-up in the last tournament.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1588880-Reduce-the-time-limit-on-duel-matches?highlight=Aarpian

Duel/brawl needs a secondary objective and refined mechanics IMO.

LilBlueAlien
02-26-2017, 05:37 AM
I completely agree with your idea. A lot of people don't seem to realize that at high level play any offensive move is punishable, but there is absolutely zero punishment for turtling. You cannot be offensive because:

-Any attack will be parried and you will be punished with a hit
-Any guardbreak will be countered
-Feints into attacks will be blocked if not parried

Chip damage will solve this issue. It already exists in the 4v4 modes because of gear. It needs to be in duels and brawls order to encourage activity over turtling. I'm not sure why people see an issue with this. So far the counter points haven't made much sense.

The shield/tanky classes will still have more health and be able to parry, and the chip damage from assassins will be small enough that blocking is still perfectly viable for them. As I said, chip damage exists in all the 4v4 modes and the tank classes do fine in those, even in the duels in elimination. This would simply encourage playing actively in duels rather than blocking all day like a troll.

Also, I like the idea of granting the win to the person with the most health at the end of a duel. This will punish people for running away from a losing fight and will also encourage an active playstyle. I haven't been able to think f cons to this but let me know if you do.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 05:49 AM
Ayyyyy, a validating comment. Well said sir.

Since we're tackling two issues now. I think the runaway problem can be addressed with the zone Varicose_Veins is proposing, but only made relevant towards the end of the round. The zone would also have to accommodate lighter classes being knocked out by heavies abusing movement control.

The most health idea wouldn't work, PK could gain health advantage and run away all round.

TKCSeeSpotKnif
02-26-2017, 05:59 AM
Chip damage & larger feint windows.

An opponent can gain a significant advantage by turtling. There is no incentive to attack first, since the defensive reward is greater. This negatively impacts the feel of the game. A simple solution to encourage the dynamic exchanges intended by the designers is a slight increase in chip damage. This damage can be fine-tuned to accommodate the average attack frequency of various heros (PK chip damage should be smaller than Shugoki's).

A blocked hit should still do 10-20% of the damage of an attack, where a parry would result in zero damage and the same mechanic currently in play. This significantly increases the incentive to attack, diminishes the incentive to turtle, and increases the amount of parrying players will attempt, and therefore the parry baiting and punishes (ie. Feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, interrupt with gb; or feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, light attack; etc.).

Boom, meta equilibrium.

Edit: in addition to chip damage, enabling later feinting (actions that follow later feints should be slower) would be a great idea.

I don't understand what you're talking about. Turtling is the worst strategy. Once a player turtles up I know I have them beaten hands down. They aren't skilled enough to parry, and I do enough damage through guard(I'm geared for it) that they're going to be punished. And when they finally TRY to attack, I will utterly smash them.

Most good players I feel are like this. They don't have to possess a 108 gear score to do it.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 06:12 AM
I don't play the 4v4 modes. They're fun I imagine but inherently less skilled due to their spamming nature. How much time have you spent high level dueling (Where gear is irrelevant)?

TKCSeeSpotKnif
02-26-2017, 06:19 AM
Spammy? Your implication is that Dominion is not the hardest game mode... you would be wrong. It's like skirmish, but much harder because there are objectives. 1v1 skills are still prevalent, but you also need to develop 4v1 skills because often you will find yourself vastly outnumbered.

As far as Duel/Brawl/Deathmatch there's less an appeal to it - it is nothing new or special. It's battle arena toshinden 2, almost identical in fact.

However, I've fought enough in 1v1 or 2v2 or 4v4 to know that fatties are far more of a threat than turtles.

I mean, you don't ever get knocked off edges by turtles...

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 06:32 AM
Duelers and Brawlers can outplay 4v4er's on average, no question.

You disagree that turtling gives advantage, fair enough. This is nuanced in that certain matchups aren't effected by this, like classes with broken mechanics (Warlord, Warden, Conq).

Once the broken mechanics are addressed, the defensive meta will still be an issue. You'll come to find this to be true if you climb the dueling ladder. You claim that you are high level and that this isn't true. Fair enough, we disagree. Still, conflating the defensive meta with edge camping fatties and broken mechanics is pointless.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 06:36 AM
For all naysayers, there's a reason this thread has 15k views:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1575836-How-to-negate-the-quot-Never-Attack-First-quot-Meta

IronSoul32
02-26-2017, 06:44 AM
Just make it so that after 4-5 attacks blocked in a row, the next one will be unparriable and deal a good chunk of chip damage, the buff isn't lost until the attack land or is blocked.

As for running, just make it that running AWAY from an enemy in the vicinity reduce your speed by 50 %

TKCSeeSpotKnif
02-26-2017, 06:45 AM
Duelers and Brawlers can outplay 4v4er's on average, no question.

No that's wrong. I have a question.

Question:

May I see some metrics to back that claim up? Especially when dominion matches OFTEN show scores of 25:0

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 07:00 AM
No that's wrong. I have a question.

Question:

May I see some metrics to back that claim up? Especially when dominion matches OFTEN show scores of 25:0

Just follows logically... those that spend more uninterrupted time in 1v1 combat will have better mastery of their class and the game in general. 4v4 scenarios are more forgiving of unskilled spam, since there is a lot more to absorb for all players, it's easier to get away with the basics, and that can reinforce bad habits that more skilled players will exploit. 4v4er's can manage multiple targets better, I'm sure, and there will be 4v4-primary players better than some duelers, of course.

Hogmin
02-26-2017, 07:45 AM
@Skvillritz Dodging can be punished by anticipating and guard breaking.
Except this isn't really true, since all they need to do is Dodge+attack then GB doesn't work and you just bounce off.

Varangian_Wolf
02-26-2017, 09:32 AM
The combat would be absolutely ok, if there wasn't a consistent ping of 110 to 250 between any two players at any given time.
Turtling is rampant because of this. No one can feel confident in ANYTHING they do; unless they pick hero classes that have dodges and bleeds.

This game is doomed. Honestly, in 3 months, it will be dead. Ubi dropped the ball on this one.

Exaffect
02-26-2017, 09:50 AM
No that's wrong. I have a question.

Question:

May I see some metrics to back that claim up? Especially when dominion matches OFTEN show scores of 25:0

Lol, dude. You really don't understand why a person who spends their time dueling will outplay a dominion player? I've spent hours in dominion and it's usually embarrassing how bad the average player is 1 on 1 and we're talking about prestige 2 or better.

You're given less opportunities to practice your class in dominion. It's pretty simple. Zergers are usually worse players.

Rump_Buffalo
02-26-2017, 09:54 AM
No, as a conqueror main. I have to play smart and not get over aggressive on these assassin classes. It's what being a heavy does. Counter attackers need someone to attack. This game is a chess game. Eventually someone will get impatient and attack. Hell, I'll sit the whole 5 mins if need be, but you know what. That person will eventually get too impatient and attack and that's when you punish. If I try to initiate a heavy with an assassin I'll get severely sidestepped and parried and combo-ed like crazy and I need to be punished for playing my class?

NO, just no.

But... that is incredibly dull gameplay. If you allow aggression to be rewarded generally (whereas defense is rewarded more right now) you will in fact CAUSE more attacks for counter-attacker classes to counter-attack. They can always add passive skills in (like the classes already have) that reduce or nullify chip or something should that become an issue for something like the conq.

My suggestions for fixing the meta:

Parries do not allow enough frames to land a free attack, but instead stun. This awards and helps strategic play without granting free damage. This increases the worth of deflection and allows parries to be their own thing. They are strategic moves that can counter unblockables, not the end-all be-all defensive move that gives insane free frame and damage advantages against MOST classes, but not some (nobushi). It is no longer hampered by range.

GB is NEVER uncounterable, which makes the allowance of free heavies okay now instead of crazy free damage sometimes just for blocking a light attack

Combos cannot be interrupted by blocks once started. This means that you have to land the first hit, and then you can combo. It can still be blocked, it just won't be interrupted unless parried or dodged (this being said, assassins should not be able to sidestep dodge-attack out of a combo that has already hit them like they can now).

Increase chip slightly

JeeNiNe
02-26-2017, 09:59 AM
In response to this thread, there are many things that needs to be fixed prior to the defensive meta which are warden ShoulderBarge to GB, Warlord Headbutt, Shugoki in general, block speed vs spam speed, looking at you PK lights to zone, then once all of this is fix, people will get better and see that yes defensive playstyle wins at higher level....

But.. Will chipping damage fix the meta, I dont think so. It will change the meta to where spacing will be more important but the defensive meta will be the same, instead of having two reactive players nose to nose waiting for the other to attack, you ll have 2 reactive player waiting out of range for an opening. and it gives the advantage to classes that can whiff punish the best/ classes with fast light attack. So while I think that ship damage could be a good addition I dont see it fixing the main problem for this game.

Exaffect
02-26-2017, 10:07 AM
But... that is incredibly dull gameplay. If you allow aggression to be rewarded generally (whereas defense is rewarded more right now) you will in fact CAUSE more attacks for counter-attacker classes to counter-attack. They can always add passive skills in (like the classes already have) that reduce or nullify chip or something should that become an issue for something like the conq.

My suggestions for fixing the meta:

Parries do not allow enough frames to land a free attack, but instead stun. This awards and helps strategic play without granting free damage. This increases the worth of deflection and allows parries to be their own thing. They are strategic moves that can counter unblockables, not the end-all be-all defensive move that gives insane free frame and damage advantages against MOST classes, but not some (nobushi). It is no longer hampered by range.

GB is NEVER uncounterable, which makes the allowance of free heavies okay now instead of crazy free damage sometimes just for blocking a light attack

Combos cannot be interrupted by blocks once started. This means that you have to land the first hit, and then you can combo. It can still be blocked, it just won't be interrupted unless parried or dodged (this being said, assassins should not be able to sidestep dodge-attack out of a combo that has already hit them like they can now).

Increase chip slightly

Or you could just learn to properly gb punish.

Varicose_Veins
02-26-2017, 10:19 AM
Guber, on further reflection, I think we also need duel/brawl-specific maps. Arena/stadium symmetrical maps so players have open space but can still be cornered.

Get rid of the environmentals (or limit them sensibly), narrow spaces and bridges.

Anything that encourages cheesey deaths or makes running away viable shouldn't be on Duels and Brawls maps.

Again, this helps reduce "gaming the game" and will lessen the chance of standoffs and draws.

Rump_Buffalo
02-26-2017, 10:51 AM
Or you could just learn to properly gb punish.

Yeah... I can GB punish. The problem is that creates the same issues that parry does. Thanks for playing.

This brings to mind another problem though: Rolling away from combat will instantly break GB attempts with no timing

Exaffect
02-26-2017, 10:56 AM
Yeah... I can GB punish. The problem is that creates the same issues that parry does. Thanks for playing.

This brings to mind another problem though: Rolling away from combat will instantly break GB attempts with no timing

I said properly.

Rump_Buffalo
02-26-2017, 11:02 AM
I said properly.

Explain your point more, because I don't think you understand what I'm saying, and I certainly don't get what your point is. Punishing GB doesn't solve anything. It's like someone saying "JUST FEINT" like that solves anything

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 07:49 PM
In response to this thread, there are many things that needs to be fixed prior to the defensive meta which are warden ShoulderBarge to GB, Warlord Headbutt, Shugoki in general, block speed vs spam speed, looking at you PK lights to zone, then once all of this is fix, people will get better and see that yes defensive playstyle wins at higher level....

But.. Will chipping damage fix the meta, I dont think so. It will change the meta to where spacing will be more important but the defensive meta will be the same, instead of having two reactive players nose to nose waiting for the other to attack, you ll have 2 reactive player waiting out of range for an opening. and it gives the advantage to classes that can whiff punish the best/ classes with fast light attack. So while I think that ship damage could be a good addition I dont see it fixing the main problem for this game.

Perhaps. I still think adding chip damage will resonate throughout combat and bring it back to the core of the game. Attacks are more potent > parrying attempts increase > feints are more effective > feint punishes become more prevalent.

I do agree that there is a lot to be fixed before this change. This is thinking ahead a bit... I don't even think most of the player base understands the meta yet.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 07:57 PM
Guber, on further reflection, I think we also need duel/brawl-specific maps. Arena/stadium symmetrical maps so players have open space but can still be cornered.

Get rid of the environmentals (or limit them sensibly), narrow spaces and bridges.

Anything that encourages cheesey deaths or makes running away viable shouldn't be on Duels and Brawls maps.

Again, this helps reduce "gaming the game" and will lessen the chance of standoffs and draws.

I would like to see more 'The Shard'-like maps as well.

I'm going to agree with JeeNiNe on priority. I see your points on gaming the game, but it should be low priority (Though it has huge potential to destroy ranked mode, so before that)

Broken mechanics (Warlord, Warden, Conq, Shoguki, other minor class issues) > fighting meta > anti-grotesque cheese measures

Gubermensch
02-27-2017, 04:45 AM
Meta Snapshot, 1v1 tournament today, Top 16 finals

Warden did absolutely nothing, reduced the game to waiting for an attack to parry from one direction. This strategy works against every class but Warlord, Warden, Shugoki and to a lesser extent Conqueror. Match resulted in 2 ties due to time running out. Warden ended up winning. See KingRichard's other matches from this tourney on his channel - the Warden initiated and maintained the passive play style (And won).

https://clips.twitch.tv/kingrichard15/AmusedGrasshopperRuleFive

See more of KingRichard @ https://www.twitch.tv/kingrichard15

STGxDante
02-27-2017, 04:47 AM
suggestions & feedback section on the forums.

Gubermensch
02-27-2017, 04:52 AM
suggestions & feedback section on the forums.

Edit: the suggestion has already been made and the discussion is elsewhere. I'm just planting seeds.

Gubermensch
02-27-2017, 09:21 PM
More clips to illustrate the point.... would be nice to have some of you admit you had no idea what you were talking about. :)

To explain what's going on here again... The warden is looking for a specific attack to parry (Left light), covering his right guard to shut down the quick zone, and guard breaking from time to time. As long as he manages to counter gb every time and block attacks other than the one he's looking to parry, all actions are 100% safe. This playstyle does take skill, but it makes the game a joke at high level.

https://clips.twitch.tv/ElatedFrigidGoldfishEleGiggle

https://clips.twitch.tv/FlirtyWonderfulNeanderthalYouWHY

https://clips.twitch.tv/StrongTemperedFrogFUNgineer

llllIllIIIIIIII
02-27-2017, 10:48 PM
Perfect examples.

You can say what you want but I can't imagine the game being designed for 1on1s. The game and character mechanics just don't work properly in 1on1 scenarios.

Also, the maps. They're just not well-thought out. A perfect map should have minimal environmental hazards, enough space, 1 bigger obstacle in the middle slightly off-centered, a slightly tapered design and some smaller obstacles near walls. Why? Some characters need space to work, some heavily rely on throws and walls.

Example: https://i.gyazo.com/b2b7916dacb2127fc4e987f0feae232a.jpg

Remove blue, and add red and green... Done. Even without the changes, it's one of the better (read: more balanced) duel maps. (I guess I should make topic about this)

Ulfhedinn_.
02-27-2017, 10:56 PM
Haven't read past the first page (a very entertaining back and forth, heh) but I'd be interested to see the OP's suggestion tested out - maybe in some sort of test server? I can admit, that even as a berserker, I turtle the f-- up when I'm low on HP to recuperate and consider my next move, and it can be absolutely game changing when, for a few moments, one player is pretty much invincible simply because they can block and CGB. I'm not proud of it, but I can attest to the strength of this style of play, and it's not right.

Gubermensch
02-27-2017, 11:18 PM
@llllIllIIIIIIII You might be right. Nothing I'm suggesting is very groundbreaking. It was likely discussed at ubisoft, they may have decided early on to neglect dueling balance for the most rewarding 4v4 play. Dueling interest will fade as people realize it wasn't designed for dueling. I guess we'll see over the next month or so. It'd be nice to hear straight up from Ubisoft, but I'm doubtful. You wouldn't want to alienate a small, but sizeable demographic. Stringing them along would be the right business move.

Dueling level design could use some thought, I agree (Although I'd argue the map you marked up is one of the more perfect ones).

@Tezzer05 Don't bother reading past the first page (Heh, General section). You get it... play normal, turtle to win at crunch time - been there done that my friend. :D

The_B0G_
02-28-2017, 02:00 AM
Defense by itself I don't have a problem with, turtling defense along with high gear level revenge builds I do have a problem with. I played against a conq the other day that could get his revenge meter in about 3 blocks, he was taking on 3 people and winning consistently because his shield bash mash was knocking people to their back because of the revenge mode.

I was using LB and I flipped him over a couple times and he still makes blocks as he's getting off his back. Shield bash mash I can deal with, turtling I can deal with, but these revenge gear builds are too OP.

It's near the point where all the top players you see in matches take 3 hits and get revenge. You get knocked to your back as soon as the last hit is given and they get a free heavy that does 80 damage, or with shugoki attack/revenge build that does 135 damage on a heavy.

Revenge mode needs a big nerf, it shouldn't even charge in 1v1.

Gubermensch
02-28-2017, 10:45 AM
Shameless bump.