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View Full Version : Valkyrie Dodge Block is High Risk Low Reward W/ Video



Scoregasms2286
02-25-2017, 04:56 AM
Let me say that first off, I am sorry I dont make analysis videos, and this was actually my first.

Now, onto the matter, if you watch the video, you will see how Valkyries shoulder Pin ability does not apply like the rest of the characters who use a dodge mechanic to punish enemies.

I tested this against a level 2 bot.

The first thing you will notice is that the timing is incredible hard to nail 100%, it differs slightly with endless variables acting upon the same moves from different characters.

I want to say, when valk dodges, her shield will glow, sort of like an unblockable glow, this illustrates valkyrie is able to block any attack in that direction. At least, that is what the animation is supposed to me. In the video you will see that animation going off, and Valkyries dodge block does not actually take effect, multiple times, I would go right through shugokis weapon, I slowed it down to show my shield glow, and shugokis mace slowly connecting with my shield, but follows through not dealing any damage to me, and myself not being able to punish him for that attack.


Towards the end of the video, I compare and contrast a shoulder pin that connected and a failed shoulder pin. The attack is from shugoki, a side heavy, I slow down the clips to show I did not try to skew anything. You will see that the timer starts as soon as his stance turned red. The timers correlate to each other where the first feint flash of red (Anyone new to parrying: when the opponents guard flashes red, which is right before impact, this is your sign to initiate a parry/deflect) are the exact same time. The attempt that failed compared to the attempt that passed, there was a time difference of .09 seconds of when the dodge in the direction of the attack was initiated. This is faster than a humans reaction to touch, sight, and sound. This small difference allowed 1 valk to get Should pin off, while the other let Shugoki get a free heavy, into a possible chain.

This should not be the case, this small difference in time, should not be the cause of punishment for Valk. Peacekeeper and Orochi have a much larger window to decide whether to initiate their dodge and use their follow up compared to Valk. This near impossible time window destroys Valkyries ability to be adaptable. Why?

Because of the small time window, literally right before the weapon connects (Not when you see the red flash, as you saw in the video) can lead to Valkyries giving their opponent a free parry on them, because the opponent could bait her dodge block out with feint, and as valk dodges, she will then use her heavy, if you hit them in preceding order. Or an extremely fast hero could get a free light combo off, by baiting out the dodge, cancelled into a quick double light attack. Since youre in the dodging animation, you are punished freely. While I dont disgrace this, I heavy feint to get a free parry all the time.

But now stack possible outcomes when fighting 1v1 as valk. You need to pretty much play at a 50/50 all the time, Valkyrie has so much utility to her kit, but what good is having those options when the Risk/Reward comes into play, and the high risk/low reward options are ignored because they are borderline useless.

Her bleed, for being incredibly hard to time, only deals 25 damage. While you could parry a heavy attack and chain that into a 55-70 damage combo, the higher value is guaranteed if played correctly. Valkyries dodge alone is slow to activate (not going for a dodge block). You are more often than not, getting hit by the attack and you try to roll away, raider also has a crap dodge mechanic, so those raider players out there probably know this feeling as well.

Which would you take? the 25 damage for possibly getting the timing just right, or the 70 damage for a longer time window.






I decided to make this, because earlier I was on the forums reading through, and saw a lot of posts concerning Valkyrie and deciding whether to parry or get the bleed off. I wanted to illustrate, in the current state, shoulder pin is ranked lower than going for parries (however!! Some characters remove our ability to get that free GB after a parry, like LB, Nobushi,Shugoki, pretty much anyone with a somewhat decent range). Yet even with this disadvantage, we still opt to use a parry over these classes, just because they are the safest and most reliable method.



Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8Jrnva0tNM

Einherjar25
02-25-2017, 05:25 AM
Let me say that first off, I am sorry I dont make analysis videos, and this was actually my first.

Now, onto the matter, if you watch the video, you will see how Valkyries shoulder Pin ability does not apply like the rest of the characters who use a dodge mechanic to punish enemies....

I just watch quickly and just wanted to let you know that you don't use this technique when the attack flashes but at the very end of the strike. The enemy's guarf flash is to parry, the shoulder pin is AFTER the flash. Like the Oro, the Bersker and the PK's counter dodges. It's not well explained the the moveset menu and had to figure this out myself. Even still, this technique is underpowered because the other class have them tied to R1 button but the Valk is R2. This creates a problem because when the other class miss their timing they still do their regualr side dodge attack move since both require R1 button, as oppose to the Valk, where the side dodge attack is tied to R1 but the counter dodge (shoudler pin) is tied to R2.

Drekle
02-25-2017, 05:31 AM
This ability reads as if it is supposed to set up guard in the direction of dodge from the beginning. It just seems completely broken.

This and when you dodge in the direction of their attack, they normally miss.

Scoregasms2286
02-25-2017, 05:36 AM
I just watch quickly and just wanted to let you know that you don't use this technique when the attack flashes but at the very end of the strike. The enemy's guarf flash is to parry, the shoulder pin is AFTER the flash. Like the Oro, the Bersker and the PK's counter dodges. It's not well explained the the moveset menu and had to figure this out myself. Even still, this technique is underpowered because the other class have them tied to R1 button but the Valk is R2. This creates a problem because when the other class miss their timing they still do their regualr side dodge attack move since both require R1 button, as oppose to the Valk, where the side dodge attack is tied to R1 but the counter dodge (shoudler pin) is tied to R2.

My main is PK, and it is incredibly easier to apply the deflect with PK than Valk. It seems her time to act right before impact is shorter than PK. It is very underpowered though, which is why I tried to do my best and illustrate its difficulty to apply, andwhy most valks favor parry over dodge block. It under perform, even vs other long range classes, due to the timing window, you either dodge to early and the enemy attack still tracks you, or you attempt to dodge, but because we are not robots, the input time from our vision to our touch cannot act fast enough 100% of the time and then you just take the hit.

Valkyrie being the piece of paper she is. 5 hits and you are dead, I have even been 2 shot by a warden because, well revenge OP.

Scoregasms2286
02-25-2017, 05:37 AM
This ability reads as if it is supposed to set up guard in the direction of dodge from the beginning. It just seems completely broken.

This and when you dodge in the direction of their attack, they normally miss.

I love how Shugokis giant bat just flows through my body without harm. As I am sure Shugoki would be thrilled to see his attack go through his enemy and not lose any health.

strecs
02-25-2017, 05:46 AM
Very well put together.

I've yet to get a shield pin.

Dehumanizer86
02-25-2017, 06:33 AM
So it's a 170ms window with a bot and the player hosting. I have no idea how Ubisoft imagines us actually using that move in a fight against another player with an additional latency of at least 100ms. Nevermind the fact that the move is only 24 points of damage over 10(?) seconds. Why anyone, who is actually good enough to pull it off with any consistency, wouldn't just rather go for a parry is beyond me.

Don't know whats more insane, to imagine that Ubisoft actually thought this was a good and balanced move and that it should be part of the characters skill ceiling or that not a single gameplay developer seems to main Valk and wasn't straight-up protesting.

Einherjar25
02-25-2017, 06:47 AM
So it's a 170ms window with a bot and the player hosting. I have no idea how Ubisoft imagines us actually using that move in a fight against another player with an additional latency of at least 100ms. Nevermind the fact that the move is only 24 points of damage over 10(?) seconds. Why anyone, who is actually good enough to pull it off with any consistency, wouldn't just rather go for a parry is beyond me.

Don't know whats more insane, to imagine that Ubisoft actually thought this was a good and balanced move and that it should be part of the characters skill ceiling or that not a single gameplay developer seems to main Valk and wasn't straight-up protesting.

Because shoulder pin is unblockable, but its true its to damn hard to effectively land to counter its benefit

Scoregasms2286
02-25-2017, 10:28 AM
Because shoulder pin is unblockable, but its true its to damn hard to effectively land to counter its benefit

I mean...a parry into a GB + side heavy is also unblockable and does 25 dmg instantly.

But the guarantee 3 hit combo off of a parry that does 55 damage + a 50/50 to the opponent after the combo to deal an extra 25.

I feel if the dodge block had a shorter activation time, this probably has to do with valks fantastic recovery rate from everything! Aka if it would be easier to dodge into an attack after being hit by 1, I think it would be viable. Currently its easier to go for a parry instead of dodging, and even activating her shield charge.

Iunno, I like the idea of valk having a bleed, but dang...I dont want to take 3 heavies attempting to get it off.

Scoregasms2286
02-25-2017, 10:38 AM
So it's a 170ms window with a bot and the player hosting. I have no idea how Ubisoft imagines us actually using that move in a fight against another player with an additional latency of at least 100ms. Nevermind the fact that the move is only 24 points of damage over 10(?) seconds. Why anyone, who is actually good enough to pull it off with any consistency, wouldn't just rather go for a parry is beyond me.

Don't know whats more insane, to imagine that Ubisoft actually thought this was a good and balanced move and that it should be part of the characters skill ceiling or that not a single gameplay developer seems to main Valk and wasn't straight-up protesting.

Exactly, I have only landed them in 1 on 1 duels, but it wasnt a competitive match. You know how you usually continue to duel people at your level, well thats how a valk vs valk duel began. Where we tried to show who was the better valk, any other occassion....I dont even think about shoulder pin as it is the least viable asset in valks armory, at least for the majority of the player base. I am sure a higher end player could use it effectively. But the majority of higher level play incorporates feint baiting, everyone is searching for that free parry + GB combo, not that shoulder pin that will win it for them.

I just want the bleed aspect of valk to be somewhat viable....and have certain applications where it is more viable than to parry. In another comment I stated it is easier to parry after being hit from an attack, than to try and dodge out. This is due to valks poor recovery time, if you play valk, expect to fight till the end, there is no getting out of a fight. Here dodge reminds me of something slightly better than raider, but about the same activation time.

Valk is supposedly a hybrid between Heavy and Assassin....well from the vikings Warlord is a tank that hits just as hard, while berserker has a great dodge spin, that follows into what could possibly an endless wailing until that deathly overhead heavy kills you off. Both of these hit extremely hard, and the warlord attacks rather fast, and has the quickest recover time from any of the heavies.

WHO ARE VALKS PARENTS CAUSE THEY DAMN SURE ARENT VIKINGS.

Hogmin
02-25-2017, 10:40 AM
It's a shame, I love Valk but this attack is ridiculous. It's incredibly hard to land properly, characters with higher recovery can STILL BLOCK IT, and the damage is negligible on top of fuelling revenge at an increased rate. Keep it as it is, or make is so the attack can't be blocked consistently, are my only complaints/suggestions.

Scoregasms2286
02-25-2017, 10:55 AM
It's a shame, I love Valk but this attack is ridiculous. It's incredibly hard to land properly, characters with higher recovery can STILL BLOCK IT, and the damage is negligible on top of fuelling revenge at an increased rate. Keep it as it is, or make is so the attack can't be blocked consistently, are my only complaints/suggestions.

*cough*Nobushi*cough*

Yea i know its crazy that on technically a "counter attack", it cant be disregarded by some...

Whenever I feel spicy, I try to land it, after 3 slaps to the face, I give up and think why do I ever try to incorporate this move when fighting real players. I wouldnt mind seeing an alteration to the ability (extended window of opportunity; to clear it up, not when you land it how long you have to heavy attack for the shoulder pin, I mean given human error and reactions speed, give me a chance to at least start the dodge block).

I still stand by my argument of valk needs an overally recovery boost, yes she is getting recovery from being blocked by a light attack, but it doesnt change her recovery when she is getting attacked.

As stated earlier, the warlord and berserker (you know...valks a hybrid of heavy/assassin), both of these can easily recover from an attack and either dodge, parry, CGB, or in the warlords case activate his full guard. Valk....I think shes a little slow in the head, especially fighting someone who runs behind her during an attack, its like valk completely lost that person and doesnt know what to do...she needs adult supervision :/.

Overall, I threw this together because of the multiple posts I saw on the viking forums earlier, while I agreed with them 100% of Parry > Shoulder pin. It doesnt currently effect my playstyle cause I never even attempt it, except my spicy moment when we are ahead.....1000 to 5.

Hogmin
02-25-2017, 10:57 AM
*cough*Nobushi*cough*

Yea i know its crazy that on technically a "counter attack", it cant be disregarded by some...

Whenever I feel spicy, I try to land it, after 3 slaps to the face, I give up and think why do I ever try to incorporate this move when fighting real players. I wouldnt mind seeing an alteration to the ability (extended window of opportunity; to clear it up, not when you land it how long you have to heavy attack for the shoulder pin, I mean given human error and reactions speed, give me a chance to at least start the dodge block).

I still stand by my argument of valk needs an overally recovery boost, yes she is getting recovery from being blocked by a light attack, but it doesnt change her recovery when she is getting attacked.

As stated earlier, the warlord and berserker (you know...valks a hybrid of heavy/assassin), both of these can easily recover from an attack and either dodge, parry, CGB, or in the warlords case activate his full guard. Valk....I think shes a little slow in the head, especially fighting someone who runs behind her during an attack, its like valk completely lost that person and doesnt know what to do...she needs adult supervision :/.

Overall, I threw this together because of the multiple posts I saw on the viking forums earlier, while I agreed with them 100% of Parry > Shoulder pin. It doesnt currently effect my playstyle cause I never even attempt it, except my spicy moment when we are ahead.....1000 to 5.

Well I'm glad someone brought this specific attack up, because it was getting on my nerves. Hopefully Valk gets some love in the near future ;)

Scoregasms2286
02-26-2017, 12:25 AM
That you actually MISS the block when you dodge in the same direction is what ultimately convinced to not bother with this move. It is an awesome tool, but so unreliable and unsafe (like all her moves).
The time window beeing as short as it is, is also a problem BUT you see the attack animation earlier so if you are very good at the game you donīt need to wait for the flashing to occur. So the time you have is actually bigger than you say it is.

You also could make an analysis of her light attack with superior block, i also have trouble using that reliably. If i do it to early, i get hit, if i do it to late i just block. There is a really weird time window too.

Yea the problem with her Superior light attack is, its impossible to get it off on an enemys light attack UNLESS you are already in the same stance as him (In pvp this doesnt happen, even against bots...it doesnt happen you change guard and attack) I have only successfully used her superior light blocks on heavy attacks because you have the time. When you switch on light, all valk does is block. Also why would you ever want to use the light attack lol, it does like what 7 damage? Parry that attack and get a better combo.

To me, valk isnt really adaptable...her whole kit revolves around parrying. Yes she is good at poking as well, but to set up anything in a 1v1 situation you really just need to parry and then play defensive to wait for stamina and wait for another parry.

Scoregasms2286
02-27-2017, 03:59 AM
Exactly, I have only landed them in 1 on 1 duels, but it wasnt a competitive match. You know how you usually continue to duel people at your level, well thats how a valk vs valk duel began. Where we tried to show who was the better valk, any other occassion....I dont even think about shoulder pin as it is the least viable asset in valks armory, at least for the majority of the player base. I am sure a higher end player could use it effectively. But the majority of higher level play incorporates feint baiting, everyone is searching for that free parry + GB combo, not that shoulder pin that will win it for them.

I just want the bleed aspect of valk to be somewhat viable....and have certain applications where it is more viable than to parry. In another comment I stated it is easier to parry after being hit from an attack, than to try and dodge out. This is due to valks poor recovery time, if you play valk, expect to fight till the end, there is no getting out of a fight. Here dodge reminds me of something slightly better than raider, but about the same activation time.

Valk is supposedly a hybrid between Heavy and Assassin....well from the vikings Warlord is a tank that hits just as hard, while berserker has a great dodge spin, that follows into what could possibly an endless wailing until that deathly overhead heavy kills you off. Both of these hit extremely hard, and the warlord attacks rather fast, and has the quickest recover time from any of the heavies.

WHO ARE VALKS PARENTS CAUSE THEY DAMN SURE ARENT VIKINGS.

Reposting this

Major_Buttache
02-27-2017, 09:57 PM
Thanks for taking the time to write this. I made similar post with a less detailed video in the COMMUNITY HELP section. This inconsistent and unrewarding shoulder pin / dodge block must be fixed on Valk. It's clearly buggy

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1585592-Bug-Suggestion-Valkyrie-dash-block-shoulder-pin-inconsistency

agentpoop
02-27-2017, 10:28 PM
Bump

This shows how insanely hard they made Valk to use, the PC patch will make her a bit better but they still need to fix this dodge block timing

Miniling213
03-02-2017, 01:33 PM
I agree. Shoulder pin just isn't worth doing. You are better off parrying than risking a shoulder pin. I hope they fix this.

S8Canadian
03-02-2017, 02:55 PM
Been posted about before. The window to PIN needs to be increased for sure. It would also be nice if the bleed from landing it was a bit bigger OR she was given a small bleed on her last hit in her - light light heavy.

Funeragon
03-02-2017, 03:28 PM
I mean...a parry into a GB + side heavy is also unblockable and does 25 dmg instantly.

But the guarantee 3 hit combo off of a parry that does 55 damage + a 50/50 to the opponent after the combo to deal an extra 25.

I feel if the dodge block had a shorter activation time, this probably has to do with valks fantastic recovery rate from everything! Aka if it would be easier to dodge into an attack after being hit by 1, I think it would be viable. Currently its easier to go for a parry instead of dodging, and even activating her shield charge.

Iunno, I like the idea of valk having a bleed, but dang...I dont want to take 3 heavies attempting to get it off.

So you're complaining about the valk's deflect when it deals more than others deflects and while u've the best damage output in a parry ? cool, cool..
Remember that valk should be a hybrid, not a IM THE BEST IN ALL WAY.