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View Full Version : Peacekeeper light attack too fast for some characters



wethebishop
02-24-2017, 10:02 AM
The PK can spam light attacks faster than some characters can switch guards.

These characters are Shugoki, Raider, Lawbringer, and Nobushi.

Is this intended? I realized something was wrong when I played a PK who only used light attacks when I was the Lawbringer and found that in fact it's not possible to switch guards quickly enough to defend.

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/5uz3ai/why_is_it_that_the_peacekeeper_has_faster_light/

NanoNaps
02-24-2017, 11:36 AM
It is not technically faster than you can switch. You can block the second light of PK with every hero.

I do agree it is too fast but I just want to get it out there it is not impossible to block like people claim.

There is a video on youtube showing that it is just as difficult to block with Lawbringer as it is with Warden.

wethebishop
02-24-2017, 11:58 AM
It is not technically faster than you can switch. You can block the second light of PK with every hero.

I do agree it is too fast but I just want to get it out there it is not impossible to block like people claim.

There is a video on youtube showing that it is just as difficult to block with Lawbringer as it is with Warden.

Do you mean as Warden with Lawbringer?

spuge1
02-24-2017, 12:16 PM
why people keep crying for one spesific move all time?

yes it is fast, but have you ever considired what pk pays for it?. No bash of any kind, poor block, no unblockable skills. ok we have deflect hits but no skill what we can use whitout enemy failing first. only way is to try to get hit in and hope he/she dont parry it.

You cannot cry for one spesific move like stab or standard fast attack whitout considering caracters weaknes too.
Every caracter have stong and weakpoints pk stong point is fast attack play around it.

you dont know how frustrating it is to try to get hit in vs warlord or congueror.

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 12:52 PM
It is not technically faster than you can switch. You can block the second light of PK with every hero.

I do agree it is too fast but I just want to get it out there it is not impossible to block like people claim.

There is a video on youtube showing that it is just as difficult to block with Lawbringer as it is with Warden.

But its a practical problem. The hit recovery time, the speed of the second attack, its indicator and the time the attacker needs to get the guard up, does nor really work, because some of the timings overlap. In addition, you would need to know where the second attack will hit, before the first hits you or the indicator pops up.

NanoNaps
02-24-2017, 01:10 PM
But its a practical problem. The hit recovery time, the speed of the second attack, its indicator and the time the attacker needs to get the guard up, does nor really work, because some of the timings overlap. In addition, you would need to know where the second attack will hit, before the first hits you or the indicator pops up.

I agree that it is a problem with the attack being too fast to react to consistently. (I mean, I wrote that it is too fast in my second sentence)

I just wanted to make it clear that it doesn't make a difference which hero you play.
The guard animation being slower is just the animation not the blocking itself.
You will still be able to block the same way with any hero.


Do you mean as Warden with Lawbringer?

I don't know if I worded it badly but what I was trying to say is that there is no difference in blocking the second light with either hero

wethebishop
02-24-2017, 01:16 PM
I agree that it is a problem with the attack being too fast to react to consistently. (I mean, I wrote that it is too fast in my second sentence)

I just wanted to make it clear that it doesn't make a difference which hero you play.
The guard animation being slower is just the animation not the blocking itself.
You will still be able to block the same way with any hero.



I don't know if I worded it badly but what I was trying to say is that there is no difference in blocking the second light with either hero
Good information

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 01:51 PM
A slower guard only effects the first block. Everything after that, is fast enough in theory.

After the first hit, other mechanics' take priority.

cragar212
02-24-2017, 01:56 PM
Uhm if a PK is spamming light attacks dont just stand there trying to block lol. Definite L2p issue

NanoNaps
02-24-2017, 02:07 PM
This kind of assumes that the only thing you do when faced with a Peacekeeper is a) defend and b) only use one defence type.
For example you say Nobushi ... well if you are trying to block Peacekeeper light attacks with a Nobushi you are at the wrong range for a start.
You don't stand toe to toe with a Peacekeeper and trade blows.
You evade roll backwards and use the reach of your spear to your advantage.
Classes are supposed to have these strengths and weaknesses.
If a Peacekeeper is close enough to breathe on you, you are in trouble, but you are also doing it wrong.

The question is not whether it is the right way to play against a PK right now, but whether it is a good idea for a PK to have this kind of advantage when basically everything else in this game is easier to defend against.

So it is right that right now it is bad to sit back trying to block PK light attack spam, but the question is, should it be that way?


Uhm if a PK is spamming light attacks dont just stand there trying to block lol. Definite L2p issue

As I said, it is not about whether you can play around it but whether the PK should have this advantage or not since it definitely is a low risk move for the PK with a moderate reward.

Just to note, PK is my most played hero and I still think the second light in the chain is too fast.

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 02:57 PM
Uhm if a PK is spamming light attacks dont just stand there trying to block lol. Definite L2p issue

That's not really how it works.

If you are hit by an attack, you become staggered and you lose the ability to perform actions for a short period of time. Your guard display is grayed out.

During that tine, you can't move, guard, attack etc. you can not dodge as well. The moment you regain control, the next blow is already on its way. If you try to dash away, you will be hit while dashing away and become staggered again. The only way to get out of it, us when the attacker hits your block, attacks too slow or switches to a heavy attack.

Munktor
02-24-2017, 03:04 PM
I feel like a lot of people would prefer all heroes to be "equal" in attack speed, block speed, and damage. Just cosmetically appear different.

*shrug* each their own and all, but such seems rather boring to me.

NanoNaps
02-24-2017, 03:04 PM
All the classes have strengths and weaknesses, there is intentional variety.
Otherwise you are asking for a carbon copy experience regardless of which of the 12 heroes you select.
All heroes can do something that others can't.


Which is fine, there still needs to be balance about it.
PK already gets quite a few things others don't even without a very fast second light in a chain
E.g.: Stab after Heavy attack hits.




All can be countered (you call it playing around it implying it's coping with something broken, rather than something that is legitimate with actual counters).



I am implying nothing, playing around means just playing to strengths and weaknesses nothing more nothing less, doesn't mean it is broken.
But it also doesn't mean it is not.



The point remains, if that is the Peacekeepers strength (and no reason why it shouldn't be) then you are doing it wrong if you ignore that strength.
All the characters would be bland as hell if none of them presented a challenge or had unique strengths.


Is a almost free and easy to use second light attack even if you miss the first "no reason"? That is my point, you say it isn't while I say that is up for debate.



It's essentially like asking should a WoW Rogue have stealth when you can see everyone else coming.
Yes.
That is their strength.

No, slowing down the second attack in a light chain a few frames is not the same as removing a class defining ability...

NanoNaps
02-24-2017, 03:45 PM
All pedantics really, not interested in sitting here until Christmas repeating the same things to you while you dance around the points made and just repeat yourself. You haven't argued against anything I've said. You seem so confused at times that you're supporting my points without realising it and backpeddling on your own points.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how melee combat vs characters with different skillsets is supposed to work.

I have crushed Peacekeepers 3-0 with a Nobushi and the last thing I do is stand toe to toe trying to block their light attacks.

This all comes down to not being very good, to be blunt.

Very condescending while you still don't understand I am talking about the second light in a chain not the first, reading comprehension...
I did not back paddle on anything, read my posts again and you will see that you simply don't understand what I am saying.
I also don't dance around any points since all you apparently claim is that the second light attack in the light attack chain is somehow class defining (why ever that would be...)
So for what my point is concerned I would argue you don't even have one atm, so I am not dancing around it, it seems rather you don't understand it.

I also doubt anyone has an issue with the first light attack and if you block that the second attack doesn't even get out since the chain is interrupted.
But you can quite easily miss the first light in the chain on purpose to simply start the faster second in another direction which is quite hard to react to without predicting. (It is not impossible, but it is very low risk on the PKs side) and I am arguing whether it should or shouldn't

And everyone can win against PKs 3-0 anecdotes don't help when talking balance since for all I know you are not good enough to even be playing against decent PKs.

If you want to be "blunt" you did not even realise I wrote that I am a PK main, so I actually have no benefit if they nerf the speed of the second light, I still think they should. But hey, better try to be condescending with the reading comprehension of a brick road.

TTVPappusGaming
02-24-2017, 03:57 PM
I can only give the same answer really, what i said covers this already.
All the classes have strengths and weaknesses, there is intentional variety.
Otherwise you are asking for a carbon copy experience regardless of which of the 12 heroes you select.
All heroes can do something that others can't.
All can be countered (you call it playing around it implying it's coping with something broken, rather than something that is legitimate with actual counters).
The point remains, if that is the Peacekeepers strength (and no reason why it shouldn't be) then you are doing it wrong if you ignore that strength.
All the characters would be bland as hell if none of them presented a challenge or had unique strengths.

It's essentially like asking should a WoW Rogue have stealth when you can see everyone else coming.
Yes.
That is their strength.

It is all nice and good if you can do itwith the nobushi. Not all classes have your luxury of range advantage. For many classes, especially the slower ones, attacking means being inside the range of pk lights. There are classes like raider/valk/lawbringer that effectively almost have no light to use - their gameplan is to parry the pk, because if they press lightattack the only thing that will happen is a parry. Now dont argue lawbringer top light, because that is where the block will be.

A peacekeeper doesn't need one of the strongest wallthrow combos in the game, one of the strongest grabs, the fastest attack, the furthest backdash, heavy cancel into guardbreak, heavy into stab the safest dodge-attack in the game AND ultimate pressure via lightattacks. Maybe if their lightattacks would hit like a wet noodle, but nah they dont.

Derity
02-24-2017, 03:57 PM
Everytime I lose to a Peacekeeper, I switch to Peacekeeper and beat them 3-0.

TTVPappusGaming
02-24-2017, 05:23 PM
Yeah stop right there. I'm mentioning the Nobushi specifically because the OP listed that class as one that can't fight against PK light attacks.

There are threads on these forums today claiming the Warden is unstoppable, also the Lawbringer, the Orochi ... probably every other class.

Dress it up all you like, when you start trying to portray one class as Godlike as you are doing, when anyone decent can beat them, the issue isn't the class. The slower classes have their own advantages and disadvantages ... why the hell am I having to tell people this?

Look, this is turning into a thread where I'm responsible for telling people how to play melee fighting games against classes with different strengths. Learn this stuff for yourself, I don't know why I'm suddenly in the role of teachier in the 'Fighting Games 101' class.

Mad cuz bad.
Git Gud

Here endeth the lesson :D

Quite frankly you didn't teach anything to anyone. You sit there and argue class variety and to be blunt as you like to say you are talking out of your arse. Good for you that you crushed a pk 3-0, which everyone did. Heck I played PK in elimination with parry -> guardbreak only and went 4-1 or something ungeared against geared ppl - big deal. That isn't teaching anything, that isn't even giving you credits.

You wanna tak CLASS VARIETY, then you can read exactly what I wrote, because she has a lot more going for her in terms of class variety than having a very quick and hard hitting double light chain. Again: Safest dodge-attack, Heavy cancel into guardbreak,fastest zone attack (& attack in the game for that matter), furthest dodges, Heavy into stab, one of the strongest wallthrow combos in terms of dmg ( even looks cool to boot ). Could keep going but for the sake of this argument this is already enough to crush your argument 3-0.

The bottomline is that a light -> light chain doesn't exist for pretty much the whole cast because it would look like this light -> parry. Same goes for heavy -> light it usually is Heavy -> parry, because most lights are simply way too slow. The question here is if she needs to have a light -> light chain that also hits like a heavy or not. I dont mind being hit by two lights of her, but they better hit like a noodle given the rest of the things she already has going for her.

Derity
02-24-2017, 05:25 PM
Your not "gud" at For Honor unless you're using Valkyrie and winning.

Syndicate_Sabre
02-24-2017, 05:33 PM
Just going to put this out here for those that care enough to run the tests for themselves. If you match up frames on a side to side -50% SI comparison of peace keepers attacks compared to any of the other classes they do in fact get a minimum of a 0.10+ second (1/10th Second+SND) OR (1/10th Second+SND+IND if your on a console) lead on every other class. When this is mixed with latency this can be quite a significant advantage or disadvantage depending on which direction your latency leans on the scale. Even as much as one and a half attacks in the time it takes some classes to do a single attack. If you factor that tiny fraction of time it takes to swap guard zones depending on latency differences then Peacekeeper can indeed attack faster than you can switch guards if the latency differential is large enough given this information. Add to this the newly released information on the less than stellar netcode issues revealed via several people who were kind enough to upload tests to media like Ytube.

The stats all look great and fine on paper but statistics on paper are seldom ever the same in the field. Which is why there will continue to be balance patches as long as the game is out. Because it is not a perfect creation because of random non-factored variables such as latency.

A lot of the people in this thread are white knight peacekeeper fans. (Pun totally intended). That is all good and great. But they will defend their beloved class against any and all truths and likely will do little to no testing themselves either due to lack of know-how or simply because they are lazy and its easier to disbelieve than it is to compute the truth. Yes, That was a metaphorical shot at lazy players who demand proof instead of doing the testing themselves. My advice, Test it out yourself and you will see it for what it is. Don't let people in these forums tell you one thing and then just believe it. That goes for everything said. Please by all means test out what I said as well. Lack of proof is lack of proof. In my case I believe everyone should have to work for it themselves. Not have it handed to them. Convenient? Maybe. But that's my view.

Given the mood of this thread I feel compelled to point out that this post is meant as some thought food for those interested. I hope this stimulates others thinking and encourages testing.

I'm out of this thread now.
Enjoy the battle field everyone! Those with Honor and those who lack it.

AveImperator85
02-24-2017, 06:19 PM
How about we start with fixing the Guard directional change speed on certain heroes who are pathetically slow at it for no ******* reason like the Raider and Lawbringer? You think you have a hard time dealing with Light Attack spam? It doesn't matter how good *I* am, my Guard simply can't change fast enough to block the next attack, even if I correctly anticipate where it's coming from.

Actually, I'll correct myself on that. I CAN block the next attack IF I anticipate the direction. Slower Guard-changes can't be reactionary, as we change our Guard at ONE THIRD the speed of everyone else. Because reasons.

frank1ller
02-24-2017, 07:06 PM
How about we start with fixing the Guard directional change speed on certain heroes who are pathetically slow at it for no ******* reason like the Raider and Lawbringer? You think you have a hard time dealing with Light Attack spam? It doesn't matter how good *I* am, my Guard simply can't change fast enough to block the next attack, even if I correctly anticipate where it's coming from.

Actually, I'll correct myself on that. I CAN block the next attack IF I anticipate the direction. Slower Guard-changes can't be reactionary, as we change our Guard at ONE THIRD the speed of everyone else. Because reasons.

I agree, same problem with my shugoki. just spam light, then GB if I manage to block one. I mean , i literally need to take some damages to counter that ''combo'' ITs impossible to block every attack once you get stuck in this spam fest.

Its also my tactic as a shugoki againt PK, hit before they can get you into their spamming light. If you fail once, you lost.

wethebishop
02-25-2017, 03:58 AM
The thing about this game's design is anyone can quickly master some offensive combo or move, since they are so simple. It's about defense. You can't say that any kind of attack in this game takes a significant amount of skill to perform, but you can say that it takes skill to defend against. The balance is in how much skill (maybe reaction is the better word) does it take to defend against something and in what way is the opponent compensated for the increased difficulty of defending against some attacks.

And then you also have to consider that some characters (assassins) have better, and risk free, defensive options with the dodge, while still keeping the ability to block, though it's not necessary. Please don't tell me it's harder to block as assassins. It's not. I play all classes. Being able to hold a guard in one direction is only useful against fast attacks like the warden's zone.

RaidoKnight
02-25-2017, 04:16 AM
Mimimmi PK has the faster light attacks (oh guess what it is intended, like Nobushi has the highest range, Shugoki has the highest health and damage, Conqueror has the best defense and so on).


1. Peacekeeper has the shortest range in the game.
2. Assassins have the lowest health in the game.
3. She is the only hero that can't punish after a wallbounce 95% of the time
4. Her Parry is only usefull against unblockables since she can't do anything but guard break if the enemy is close enough (not even a light attack is possible after parry)
5. Peacekeeper has the worst Heavies in the game, they are slow like Raider ones and at the same time the worst range.

So yeah, her zone attack is great, her 2 hit light chain is good, so what?
Nerfing her good tools and making her useless? or nerfing her good tools and buffing the bad ones, so she is not a unique hero anymore?
Do you want 12x Raider in this game?

zzzz

Starcanum
02-25-2017, 04:19 AM
Do you want 12x Raider in this game?

zzzz

If they all come with that same Raider emote spam, I'm in.

TTVPappusGaming
02-25-2017, 05:00 AM
LOL
Argues no one can beat Peackeeper, then argues anyone can beat Peacekeeper, then argues no one can beat Peacekeeper.
:D

Where did I say nobody can defeat a peacekeeper? You not the brightest lamp around - are you?

I start to doubt you even have the level of game knowledge to grasp the problem. So I will leave you talk your ******** on your own. Enjoy patting yourself on the back for nothing.