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XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 11:38 PM
Does anyone have reliable info on the losses (in aircraft, if possible) of the various german fighter units ?

I've found a number of sources on their respective number of kills but nothing about their losses.

Would also be interresting to compare losses in pilots and in aircrafts to see if there was any significant differences of survival chances between the various fronts when a pilot was shot down.

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 11:38 PM
Does anyone have reliable info on the losses (in aircraft, if possible) of the various german fighter units ?

I've found a number of sources on their respective number of kills but nothing about their losses.

Would also be interresting to compare losses in pilots and in aircrafts to see if there was any significant differences of survival chances between the various fronts when a pilot was shot down.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 12:03 AM
I only have relatively vague numbers for the east front.
The 3 "pure" east front JGs (JG 51, 52 and 54) lost 1000 pilots killed or missing on the east front.
Other german fighter units temporarily based in the east lost about the same number
so about 2000 german fighter pilots killed or missing in action in the east from 1941-45.

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 11:48 AM
theRealAntEater wrote:
- I only have relatively vague numbers for the east
- front.
- The 3 "pure" east front JGs (JG 51, 52 and 54) lost
- 1000 pilots killed or missing on the east front.
- Other german fighter units temporarily based in the
- east lost about the same number
- so about 2000 german fighter pilots killed or
- missing in action in the east from 1941-45.
-

Interresting but I thought JG 52 alone had lost at least 700 pilots, but maybe this figure also include seriously wounded pilots who didn't come back to their unit.

For JG 54, I found a losses list on the BC/RS site, it includes a little more than 2000 aircrafts, all causes and all fronts included.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 11:56 AM
whatever the number of casualties mentioned is, compare it to the fact that JG52 shot down over 10.000 aircraft and that three or four of their top expertn together shotdown just about enough aircraft to equal the score of the 4th fighter group.

I'm a crappy pilot, but one hell of a shot.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 05:55 PM
Sharpe26 wrote:
- whatever the number of casualties mentioned is,
- compare it to the fact that JG52 shot down over
- 10.000 aircraft and that three or four of their top
- expertn together shotdown just about enough aircraft
- to equal the score of the 4th fighter group.

My point is not to contest the fact the JG 52 was the most succesful fighter unit in history (about 11000 kills, for 9500 for the JG 54, 9000 for the JG 51, and 6000 for the JG 3).

I wanted to have figures for their losses to compare them to the above mentioned units and to see the evolution of losses with time during the war on the various fronts (and the only figures I got so far on the internet or in books were were uncomplete ones for a few months, no more (not really interresting to have global LW figures by fronts at a precise time when almost all units were concentrated on one of the two fronts, almost all the activity on the second one being that of recon units or NSGs - they would already be much more significant if divided between units).

Another very interresting point was to see if there was any differences between fronts as far as the survival probability of a shot down pilot is concerned.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 06:45 PM
Problem with survival probabilities is that belly landings with slight damage to the aircraft are often not even mentioned (which is the reason for some soviet victories not showing up in german loss lists)
I think generally a pilot had better chances to survive a bailout in the east because the russians did not shoot at Parachutes. There were a few such incidents, but nowhere the scale of the USAAF...

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 06:57 PM
theRealAntEater wrote:
- Problem with survival probabilities is that belly
- landings with slight damage to the aircraft are
- often not even mentioned (which is the reason for
- some soviet victories not showing up in german loss
- lists)
- I think generally a pilot had better chances to
- survive a bailout in the east because the russians
- did not shoot at Parachutes. There were a few such
- incidents, but nowhere the scale of the USAAF...
-

Don't know if they shot many in chutes but apparently they didn't mind killing some after they were captured if these documants are to be believed:

http://www.lib.uconn.edu/online/research/speclib/ASC/Nuremberg/Soviet_Crimes.htm

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 02:26 PM
Zyzbot wrote:
- Don't know if they shot many in chutes but
- apparently they didn't mind killing some after they
- were captured if these documants are to be believed:
-

Well, there were a number of such situations, particularly at the beginning of the war, but the german propaganda exagerated them a lot, which gave birth to some myths such as : "the russians don't make prisonners" which were used to encourage fanatic resistance or suicide of men about to be captured.

In BC/RS vol. 2, you can see what was the fate of a number of german captured airmen, and it appears that, while a few were killed by ground troops, most survived, though the conditions of captivity were very harsh.

On the other hand, it's true that, AFAIK, the soviet pilots almost never shot at chutes or straffed parachuted airmen.

But, maybe (I really don't know) the reason while it appears a pilot was more likely to survive being shot down in the East was that most combat happened at low level and many pilots managed to crash land their doomed plane.