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View Full Version : Daily reminder, Guard Breaking needs risk



xjlxking
02-22-2017, 05:22 AM
You want to give guard breaking the ability to be spammed with high damage and low window to counter it, that's fine, just make sure that there is a cost to it

right now, there is no cost. The risk is getting hit by a light attack...Most light attacks take ~10% of HP. If you pull off a guard break, the minimum pay off is getting a light attack off. Most classes can get a free heavy attack.

You attempt to guard break me? I stop it by countering it...You lost no HP, stamina, or positioning. If you pull off a guard break, you get a heavy.
You attempt to attack me with a heavy attack? The best case is that you get a free heavy attack. Yet if counter it through a parry, I get a free what I want to do card. The parry is easier to pull off and the risk is the same as counter a guard break

WHERE IS THE BALANCE ? What moronic person thought of this?

I'm not raging or mad at this. I'm not frustrated. I just want to know, at what point does it seem normal that the game is based around people attempting to do more guard breaks than heavy attacks. Does it not seem weird. Can you think of any fighting game where a person is doing more guard breaks (or grabs) than any other attack?

Put a limit to it. I just came from work, thought I'd play this game for a bit. I'm not the best but I can hold my own. I played over a dozen matches, all opponents were high renown (2+). No, i know renown does not reflect skills. However, most of the matches, the majority of the actions they attempted were parries and guard breaks. It shows that most people who play this game for a long duration have learned the simply truth

1-Guard break a lot, because the risks are minimal
2-Parry, and make sure not to get parried.

Fuzzybutts
02-22-2017, 05:32 AM
You want to give guard breaking the ability to be spammed with high damage and low window to counter it, that's fine, just make sure that there is a cost to it

right now, there is no cost. The risk is getting hit by a light attack...Most light attacks take ~10% of HP. If you pull off a guard break, the minimum pay off is getting a light attack off. Most classes can get a free heavy attack.

You attempt to guard break me? I stop it by countering it...You lost no HP, stamina, or positioning. If you pull off a guard break, you get a heavy.
You attempt to attack me with a heavy attack? The best case is that you get a free heavy attack. Yet if counter it through a parry, I get a free what I want to do card. The parry is easier to pull off and the risk is the same as counter a guard break

WHERE IS THE BALANCE ? What moronic person thought of this?

I'm not raging or mad at this. I'm not frustrated. I just want to know, at what point does it seem normal that the game is based around people attempting to do more guard breaks than heavy attacks. Does it not seem weird. Can you think of any fighting game where a person is doing more guard breaks (or grabs) than any other attack?

Put a limit to it. I just came from work, thought I'd play this game for a bit. I'm not the best but I can hold my own. I played over a dozen matches, all opponents were high renown (2+). No, i know renown does not reflect skills. However, most of the matches, the majority of the actions they attempted were parries and guard breaks. It shows that most people who play this game for a long duration have learned the simply truth

1-Guard break a lot, because the risks are minimal
2-Parry, and make sure not to get parried.

I feel guard break should be a follow-up from other moves, also at least parrying has the risk of 'if you mess it up on unblockables you gon git decked'.

Albeit guard break could at least use more stamina, and throw distance should be reduced for the one doing the guard break if their stamina is lowered, perhaps have a much larger window for when the gb can be countered too if their out of stamina. Seriously, when out of stamina if you land guard breaks your just given free time to regen stamina without risk.

But then theres the whole Turtling and waiting for parries meta that needs fixing as well. But that was less infuratiing than the 'hit guard break as often as possible and wait for parries' meta were currently stuck in.

tonycawley69
02-22-2017, 05:44 AM
The problem as I see it is 2 fold.

1) on PS4 the button to counter guard break is square. My right thumb has to be on the right stick as default to control my stance. Guard back and counter guard break should be mapped to R3, clicking the right stick in.

2) the time window to counter a guard break is way too small. Needs at least doubling.

xjlxking
02-22-2017, 05:48 AM
The problem as I see it is 2 fold.

1) on PS4 the button to counter guard break is square. My right thumb has to be on the right stick as default to control my stance. Guard back and counter guard break should be mapped to R3, clicking the right stick in.

2) the time window to counter a guard break is way too small. Needs at least doubling.

The problem with increasing the window to press the button is that, it doesn't slow what is causing people to spam guard break. No risk! Not to mention, the lack of actions. It can be REALLY punishing if you use a heavy attack. I rarely use it because it can be parried. I use it after i get a guard break, or as a trade (with warlord or sho).

Bob__Gnarly
02-22-2017, 05:52 AM
There is risk.

If someone spams GB, i just keep slapping em with light attack. I only get my guard broken when i screw up.

IronxSkullx55
02-22-2017, 05:54 AM
I agree to the guard break complaint. At least there is some risk to parrying, guard breaking is a different story. The only threat to getting countered is the possibility of falling off a ledge, but that's only if the person's back to it and let's be honest if he's trying to throw you off then it's your back that's towards the ledge. It would be nice if they at least made the timing a little more forgiving, obviously not a point to where guard breaking is useless but at least so that players don't rely on guard breaking as much.

tonycawley69
02-22-2017, 05:55 AM
The problem with increasing the window to press the button is that, it doesn't slow what is causing people to spam guard break. No risk! Not to mention, the lack of actions. It can be REALLY punishing if you use a heavy attack. I rarely use it because it can be parried. I use it after i get a guard break, or as a trade (with warlord or sho).

So if the window is increased, and countering a guard break staggers, then problem solved.

xjlxking
02-22-2017, 05:57 AM
I feel guard break should be a follow-up from other moves, also at least parrying has the risk of 'if you mess it up on unblockables you gon git decked'.

Albeit guard break could at least use more stamina, and throw distance should be reduced for the one doing the guard break if their stamina is lowered, perhaps have a much larger window for when the gb can be countered too if their out of stamina. Seriously, when out of stamina if you land guard breaks your just given free time to regen stamina without risk.

But then theres the whole Turtling and waiting for parries meta that needs fixing as well. But that was less infuratiing than the 'hit guard break as often as possible and wait for parries' meta were currently stuck in.

Exactly, parrying in itself is fine. Personally, i think it's too easy to use at the moment, especially against the heavy classes. I think it needs to be adjusted to cost stamina.

Again, I don't think increasing the window will do anything. You will still spam it because there is little risk to it. I'm just asking for a risk and cost to offset the huge reward this grants.

xjlxking
02-22-2017, 06:01 AM
So if the window is increased, and countering a guard break staggers, then problem solved.

That might work, especially the stagger part...like parrying

neogeo___
02-22-2017, 06:10 AM
But there is risk. If you GB too far you have a huge recovery penalty, you leave yourself opened for a heavy if timed right away or a chain start up or even a GB from your opponent.

If you GB in the wrong place and against the wrong enemy the tech breaks you you get pushed back a lot, might even fall of a ledge

And since I advocate for higher timing requirements, skill cap and mistake input penalty for this game (very needed since you can pretty much spam input to perfection in terms of timing, without interrupting the chain and while still changing stances if analog spinning), I really don't think that the current window to tech counter and GB is even that small. I can consistently tech it, and when I don't it's really my bad for missing the timing.

Having said this, sure stamina cost can be raised a bit, would be ok with it, even call it fair. But so should a lot of moves and chars tbh, Stamina economy is almost non existent, most chars really don't need to worry a lot or hardly worry about it, even with bash moves etc. (The most stamina economy demanding char atm is Nobushi no doubt, and pretty balanced in that dep)

GB is specially an issue with players that really have no actual experience with fighting games, I get that it's a struggle to get to the point you can actively counter this. I see it with my friends, most are a lot more high lvl than me and still can't do it. I tell them the same thing, train it and you'll get there. They only believe me because they see me counter theirs.

Everyone can get there, some will do it faster than others, no reason to bring it down to a point where everyone can counter and this mechanic becomes pretty much obsolete.

xjlxking
02-22-2017, 06:26 AM
But there is risk. If you GB too far you have a huge recovery penalty, you leave yourself opened for a heavy if timed right away or a chain start up or even a GB from your opponent.

If you GB in the wrong place and against the wrong enemy the tech breaks you you get pushed back a lot, might even fall of a ledge

And since I advocate for higher timing requirements, skill cap and mistake input penalty for this game (very needed since you can pretty much spam input to perfection in terms of timing, without interrupting the chain and while still changing stances if analog spinning), I really don't think that the current window to tech counter and GB is even that small. I can consistently tech it, and when I don't it's really my bad for missing the timing.

Having said this, sure stamina cost can be raised a bit, would be ok with it, even call it fair. But so should a lot of moves and chars tbh, Stamina economy is almost non existent, most chars really don't need to worry a lot or hardly worry about it, even with bash moves etc. (The most stamina economy demanding char atm is Nobushi no doubt, and pretty balanced in that dep)

GB is specially an issue with players that really have no actual experience with fighting games, I get that it's a struggle to get to the point you can actively counter this. I see it with my friends, most are a lot more high lvl than me and still can't do it. I tell them the same thing, train it and you'll get there. They only believe me because they see me counter theirs.

Everyone can get there, some will do it faster than others, no reason to bring it down to a point where everyone can counter and this mechanic becomes pretty much obsolete.

That risk is for any ability. Look at Sho's hug, any charge, any heavy attack.

I agree stamina needs to have more cost on other move.


I also want to stress the point that it's not about countering a guard break. I can do it fairly well and I think I'm consistent of it. My point is, there is no risk to it.
Think of it this way.
If I use a heavy attack, you can dodge it, you can block and parry it. The reward for me is that I can get heavy attack on you. For you, the reward is same attack back at me. The cost of the heavy attack is a large sum of stamina.
If I attempt a counter guard break, I can dodge it, though 3/4 direction, the guard break will follow. I can't parry it. I can only counter it. The only reward is from dodging it. The cost is nearly..nothing.

That needs to be changed. There is no reason why guard break has such a huge reward but low risk. It's why a lot of rookie players, even pro players will continue to spam it.

Every class has an annoying semi-spam like nature of counter breaking. Some classes can even chain it quite well. Hell, it's harder to get of some of these chains (like warden) than many combo's in this game.

xjlxking
02-22-2017, 06:28 AM
But there is risk. If you GB too far you have a huge recovery penalty, you leave yourself opened for a heavy if timed right away or a chain start up or even a GB from your opponent.

If you GB in the wrong place and against the wrong enemy the tech breaks you you get pushed back a lot, might even fall of a ledge

And since I advocate for higher timing requirements, skill cap and mistake input penalty for this game (very needed since you can pretty much spam input to perfection in terms of timing, without interrupting the chain and while still changing stances if analog spinning), I really don't think that the current window to tech counter and GB is even that small. I can consistently tech it, and when I don't it's really my bad for missing the timing.

Having said this, sure stamina cost can be raised a bit, would be ok with it, even call it fair. But so should a lot of moves and chars tbh, Stamina economy is almost non existent, most chars really don't need to worry a lot or hardly worry about it, even with bash moves etc. (The most stamina economy demanding char atm is Nobushi no doubt, and pretty balanced in that dep)

GB is specially an issue with players that really have no actual experience with fighting games, I get that it's a struggle to get to the point you can actively counter this. I see it with my friends, most are a lot more high lvl than me and still can't do it. I tell them the same thing, train it and you'll get there. They only believe me because they see me counter theirs.

Everyone can get there, some will do it faster than others, no reason to bring it down to a point where everyone can counter and this mechanic becomes pretty much obsolete.

That risk is for any ability. Look at Sho's hug, any charge, any heavy attack.

I agree stamina needs to have more cost on other moves, not just guard breaks.


I also want to stress the point that it's not about countering a guard break. I can do it fairly well and I think I'm consistent of it. My point is, there is no risk to it.
Think of it this way.
If I use a heavy attack, you can dodge it, you can block and parry it. The reward for me is that I can get heavy attack on you. For you, the reward is same attack back at me. The cost of the heavy attack is a large sum of stamina.
If I attempt a counter guard break, I can dodge it, though 3/4 direction, the guard break will follow. I can't parry it. I can only counter it. The only reward is from dodging it. The cost is nearly..nothing.

That needs to be changed. There is no reason why guard break has such a huge reward but low risk. It's why a lot of rookie players, even pro players will continue to spam it.

Every class has an annoying semi-spam like nature of counter breaking. Some classes can even chain it quite well. Hell, it's harder to get of some of these chains (like warden) than many combo's in this game.

Johnnybeck.
02-22-2017, 07:10 AM
Guard break need a fix, is not a bad idea but if they implement your suggestion warlord would be invincible. Full defense mode just waiting the GB hit so he can CGB.

Salt_Fist
02-22-2017, 07:30 AM
This is of course totally bollocks. You can hit with heavies and all kinds of things when you know someone is going to g.b.

Aside from actually teching, shoulder charges, head rams, any active attack beats them and that is their risk.

Sounds like you're just getting outplayed. You need to attain a higher level and surpass yourself.

realheated5
02-22-2017, 05:28 PM
I feel guard break should be a follow-up from other moves, also at least parrying has the risk of 'if you mess it up on unblockables you gon git decked'.

Albeit guard break could at least use more stamina, and throw distance should be reduced for the one doing the guard break if their stamina is lowered, perhaps have a much larger window for when the gb can be countered too if their out of stamina. Seriously, when out of stamina if you land guard breaks your just given free time to regen stamina without risk.

But then theres the whole Turtling and waiting for parries meta that needs fixing as well. But that was less infuratiing than the 'hit guard break as often as possible and wait for parries' meta were currently stuck in.



I completely agree with the idea of guard break costing more stamina.
I think the dev team should really consider this as an option.

neogeo___
02-22-2017, 07:11 PM
That risk is for any ability. Look at Sho's hug, any charge, any heavy attack.

I agree stamina needs to have more cost on other move.


I also want to stress the point that it's not about countering a guard break. I can do it fairly well and I think I'm consistent of it. My point is, there is no risk to it.
Think of it this way.
If I use a heavy attack, you can dodge it, you can block and parry it. The reward for me is that I can get heavy attack on you. For you, the reward is same attack back at me. The cost of the heavy attack is a large sum of stamina.
If I attempt a counter guard break, I can dodge it, though 3/4 direction, the guard break will follow. I can't parry it. I can only counter it. The only reward is from dodging it. The cost is nearly..nothing.

That needs to be changed. There is no reason why guard break has such a huge reward but low risk. It's why a lot of rookie players, even pro players will continue to spam it.

Every class has an annoying semi-spam like nature of counter breaking. Some classes can even chain it quite well. Hell, it's harder to get of some of these chains (like warden) than many combo's in this game.

Again I strongly disagree, it has in fact a lot of risk. I stated them before. It's rewarding on a lvl that no one can tech it. But when they can it becomes risky to use. On that reaction time lvl you are many times allowing for a light hit or chain start up, or back dodge and GB yourself.

When countered it pushes you back, I've won a lot of duels by simply countering spammers of the ledge. And if they are spamming the GB spam light attacks in return.

Anyway, a countered GB could have a stamina penalty for the one attempting it. I'd consider this fair tbh. It would penalize a spammer since he would run out a stamina quicker for trying to constantly use this and would probably not have enough stamina to attack if connecting the third straight GB attempt. why not?

Ubi has a lot of balancing to get done no doubt, and there is a class that is overly rewarding and needs serious timing requirements and a decent skill cap. But tbh GB is not a serious problem atm. Many say it's impossible to consistently counter, you, myself and a lot of other users are proof that it isn't. It takes getting used to. Since many still haven't, and specially the ones that can't try to do it to others. I always have a laugh when someone tries to go for the 3rd consecutive GB and still gets teched by me. I imagine the names I'm being called on the other side of my screen lmao

YankeeJr
02-22-2017, 07:57 PM
all great and all until you get hit with un blockable guard break spam. and then you are pretty much losing most of your HP until they run out of stamina. Its just stupid since if you aren't playing the same hero as them your guard break is not as effective, you just get hit with light spam if the enemy player is smart.

neogeo___
02-23-2017, 01:26 AM
all great and all until you get hit with un blockable guard break spam. and then you are pretty much losing most of your HP until they run out of stamina. Its just stupid since if you aren't playing the same hero as them your guard break is not as effective, you just get hit with light spam if the enemy player is smart.

Instead of trying to anticipate the tech, let them spam it and tech it as soon as it hits..

All great and all but it's not that hard to do honestly. Needs training. Experience play the genre obviously helps a lot but everyone can do it with practice.

Bottom line is I would be fine with a stamina penalty for the player that had his GB canceled. Anyway, I'm fine with it as is

LegendaryPLANK
02-23-2017, 01:43 AM
Risk is too low, agreed.