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View Full Version : Why is defense > offense?



Rump_Buffalo
02-22-2017, 02:04 AM
Is everyone seriously okay with free heavies off of parry and gb? This just seems insane to me because it removed many of the game's mechanics for a massive amount of people.

Why do combos?

Why try to deflect or priority attack for anyone except berserker maybe?

Why attack at all?

Defense being so rewarding just seems like bad game design, especially on something that isn't exactly hard to time. I'd much rather see lights off of it.

This game rewards turtling like nothing i've ever seen, which is strange because it pulls from fighting games a lot--games that have a pretty consistent history of punishing that.

I know about GB, I know about Feints. Sure they help, but a good player can counter-act both of those things for less effort(in terms of parry) or the same (GB) than it took to use them. It should be the other way around. I'm not saying i'm pro or can't improve anymore, but come on... this is a bit over the top and should be addressed.

This is a pretty common problem expressed at the top ends of the game as well


Suggested fixes:

-EDIT: Parry stuns instead of allowing a heavy strike. Could still allow a gb. The stun would make feints and gbs much more effective and would make it less cheap.
-GB only allows enough time to land light strikes or throw, no heavies
-Blocking drains a small amount of stamina. This is limited to happen once every 0.5 seconds (long enough to not drain you against multiple targets, but short enough to refresh in between most attacks in the game). Infrequent hits will allow regeneration, Parries are rewarded here due to cost.
-This same problem extends to dodge attacks from assassins. They should only get those free attacks through deflect timing and not simply by hitting A, or the damage of said attacks made after a dodge should be lessened.

davedxd
02-22-2017, 02:15 AM
feinting is your friend against turtling in 1v1, in 4v4 you can always go help a teammate if killing your opponent is taking too long..

Prior_Heahmund
02-22-2017, 02:25 AM
Well, heavies don't dodge real well, so we have to block. I'm not sure what the problem is if we gear to our strength.

Rump_Buffalo
02-22-2017, 02:28 AM
feinting is your friend against turtling in 1v1, in 4v4 you can always go help a teammate if killing your opponent is taking too long..

like i said... i know about feinting. You either didn't read the entire post or don't understand the problem.

Feinting takes more effort, risk, and stamina detriment than simply being defensive and parrying. If you go to parry a feint, you can STILL block most feinted attacks simply by waiting for the parry timing because feint happens so early in the attack windup. A calm player will simply wait, and block the new attack once they've familiarized themselves with this.

In reply to @dinggle: Yeah, that's fine. This isn't a problem with blocking, it's a problem with parrying and GB in general awarding far too much value. Both warlords and conqs have tools to reward defensive play, which is fine. This is a problem with general systems available to everyone.

Delectable_Sin
02-22-2017, 02:45 AM
Is everyone seriously okay with free heavies off of parry and gb? This just seems insane to me because it removed many of the game's mechanics for a massive amount of people.

Why do combos?

Why try to deflect or priority attack for anyone except berserker maybe?

Why attack at all?

Defense being so rewarding just seems like bad game design, especially on something that isn't exactly hard to time. I'd much rather see lights off of it.

This game rewards turtling like nothing i've ever seen, which is strange because it pulls from fighting games a lot--games that have a pretty consistent history of punishing that.

I know about GB, I know about Feints. Sure they help, but a good player can counter-act both of those things for less effort(in terms of parry) or the same (GB) than it took to use them. It should be the other way around. I'm not saying i'm pro or can't improve anymore, but come on... this is a bit over the top and should be addressed.

This is a pretty common problem expressed at the top ends of the game as well


Suggested fixes:

-Parry costs heavy stamina, 75% of which is restored if successful and only allows enough advantage to land lights
-GB only allows enough time to land light strikes or throw, no heavies
-Blocking drains a small amount of stamina. This is limited to happen once every 0.5 seconds (long enough to not drain you against multiple targets, but short enough to refresh in between most attacks in the game)
-This same problem extends to dodge attacks from assassins. They should only get those free attacks through deflect timing and not simply by hitting A

-You don't get heavies off of parries or GB.
-You do combos because chip damage and the fact that you can mix someone's blocking up and get through.
-You attack because that's literally the only way to win.
-Don't care to go through the rest of your noob rant.

You can't weaken defense because it will weaken offence. If defense requires stamina, no one will attack for fear of running out of stamina. If defense costs stamina, the first person to run out of stamina loses automatically, so no one will attack.

davedxd
02-22-2017, 02:52 AM
like i said... i know about feinting. You either didn't read the entire post or don't understand the problem.

Feinting takes more effort, risk, and stamina detriment than simply being defensive and parrying. If you go to parry a feint, you can STILL block most feinted attacks simply by waiting for the parry timing because feint happens so early in the attack windup. A calm player will simply wait, and block the new attack once they've familiarized themselves with this.

In reply to @dinggle: Yeah, that's fine. This isn't a problem with blocking, it's a problem with parrying and GB in general awarding far too much value. Both warlords and conqs have tools to reward defensive play, which is fine. This is a problem with general systems available to everyone.

you are clearly a bad player if you find it hard to punish someone turtling too much..

Rump_Buffalo
02-24-2017, 06:20 AM
-You don't get heavies off of parries or GB.
-You do combos because chip damage and the fact that you can mix someone's blocking up and get through.
-You attack because that's literally the only way to win.
-Don't care to go through the rest of your noob rant.

You can't weaken defense because it will weaken offence. If defense requires stamina, no one will attack for fear of running out of stamina. If defense costs stamina, the first person to run out of stamina loses automatically, so no one will attack.

You do get heavies off parries, just not with everyone.

If a light attack gets block, it ends your combo in my experience... so... okay... you can use heavy combos if you wanna get punished with a parry

There is no reason to attack outside of counter attacking. It is far more effective than being aggressive

thanks for insulting me

Fair point about stamina.

I had another idea. I would love it if parry stuns instead of allowing a heavy strike. Could still allows a gb if that only allowed a light, but the gb should be counterable. The stun would make feints and gbs much more effective and would make it less cheap.


@davedxd i dont know what terrible players you're fighting that allow you to run a train on them with feints... unless you're feinting into zones with orochi or warden... but if you want to offer constructive criticism or ideas I'd be happy to hear them.

optophobe
02-24-2017, 06:28 AM
-You don't get heavies off of parries or GB.
-You do combos because chip damage and the fact that you can mix someone's blocking up and get through.
-You attack because that's literally the only way to win.
-Don't care to go through the rest of your noob rant.

You can't weaken defense because it will weaken offence. If defense requires stamina, no one will attack for fear of running out of stamina. If defense costs stamina, the first person to run out of stamina loses automatically, so no one will attack.

It's ironic that you called it a "noob rant" when it's clear that you aren't playing at a high enough skill level to see the problem. Eventually you will be good enough that you will be matched against someone that is good at turtling and they will dominate you. It is a real problem.

fariic
02-24-2017, 06:36 AM
It's ironic that you called it a "noob rant" when it's clear that you aren't playing at a high enough skill level to see the problem. Eventually you will be good enough that you will be matched against someone that is good at turtling and they will dominate you. It is a real problem.

It's more likely they play one of the turtle classes.

This is indeed a problem at higher skill levels when you have someone that can block every attack, and counter every GB. Feinting doesn't work on them, it doesn't even work on my kensei. These guys that can only be hit when they swing, and I run into a ton of them.

It's not a problem if you have quick attacks you can use, and the ability to dodge and hit effectively.

There are some serious balance issues that Ubi needs to address. Hopefully the patch is taking a while because they're actually addressing them.

ButtR8peArtist
02-24-2017, 07:51 AM
Because


In boxing, MMA, or any serious fighting situation, defensive/counter attackers always win. reason: most attackers are mindless spammers

Diresins_PSN
02-24-2017, 09:57 AM
Yes we are, it's a unique game. We finally have a game that rewards skilled players, and that allows defensive and offensive play. It's supposed to be balanced depending on the character. All games like CoD are all about offense. Go play CoD. Posts like this remind me of how toxic forums are in the video game world. Do not destroy the defense system in this game. I will say that the guard break throw system is a little off, but that is it regarding your statement.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 10:01 AM
Yes we are, it's a unique game. We finally have a game that rewards skilled players, and that allows defensive and offensive play..

I'm sorry did you say "and offensive play"?

I'm pretty sure in the current meta offensive play is laughed at and then crushed like a bug. Defensive play is the only winning strategy. THAT'S the problem.

Hegemon_
02-24-2017, 11:32 AM
OP, GB after a parry is uncounterable, did you know that? This is what makes defence so strong. This is so OP Im starting to think that's a bug.

DeLatv
02-24-2017, 11:48 AM
I think if fine.

This game isnt suposed to be offencive heavy, this is a mind game, with fakes and mixups

Gubermensch
02-24-2017, 11:51 AM
This is a conversation that needs to be had. People playing in high levels duels get it. I think I have the answer, and it's simple. From the other thread:

Larger chip damage for blocked hits. A blocked hit should still do 33-50% of the damage of an attack, where a parry would result in zero damage and the same mechanic currently in play. This significantly increases the incentive to attack and the amount of parrying players will attempt, and therefore the parry baiting and punishes (ie. Feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, interrupt with an uncounterable gb - or - feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, light attack). Boom, equilibrium.

Baine1
02-24-2017, 12:19 PM
you are clearly a bad player if you find it hard to punish someone turtling too much..

Get off your high horse mate. You are clearly not playing at high level if you think you can easily punish good players who are dedicated to turtling. Feint? Yeah as if they care. Unless its an unblockable they wont even react to it.

Kawira1
02-24-2017, 12:54 PM
well I mentioned it in other thread but ppl ignored it and went into through some useless dumb ideas. Just take off parry from light, don't give free dmg on parry and create new block meter similiar to one in Street Fighter. If a guy turtles and won't start offense his bar gets full and u get free few seconds of shots on him

Baine1
02-24-2017, 02:48 PM
It's actually refreshing to find a game that isn't about who can spam their spammy attacks the fastest.
To make a game where defence is an option, with so many working defence mechanics, is far from easy and far from the norm.
Your question implies there is something wrong with defence being greater than offence.

Enjoy the stare down duel, where the guy that makes the first move loses.

Baine1
02-24-2017, 06:15 PM
This thread is as bad as the ones that suggest everyone kicks you off ledges, everyone is an Orochi, everyone has Revenge gear, everyone runs away .... etc
Finally a game where defence is as valid as attack and people can't cope with it.
Why not make if that if you hit someone defending they just die, would that be better for you? :D

Funny, not. I guess you are happy as long as you can get those noobs to attack when you feint.
If you really played high level matches you would understand that defense really is the better offense. And while this may not count for every game, there a certain characters that will abuse the crap out of it.