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View Full Version : My Competitive FH experience.



lDelicious
02-21-2017, 04:14 AM
This isn't going to be the most organised thread you have ever seen, but I simply wanted to express my opinions about what happened today in a certain 1v1 tournament.

I'm sure most of you witnessed the Brandon 1vs1 tournament today. There were many brilliant games and in general, it was a very enjoyable experience. I'm also sure that you saw me (oSpooner), get stomped by the player "CuteAnimeGirl", in a Nobushi vs Warlord set up. Some of you may say that I am a "Bad Player", I beg to disagree.
Here is my stream where you can clearly see I did not reach my position because of “luck”, or being “bad”: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/123564126

There is a reason for that absolute stomp today, and that reason resides in the serious flaws with two heroes in this game, those heroes being the "Warden" and (in this specific case), the "Warlord".

Beginning with the Warden, his vortex is simply ridiculous. He can charge you down, he can cancel into a guard break and he can cancel for a crushing counter blow (one of the Warden’s signature moves).

Essentially, this creates a situation where a player has to guess what a Warden plans to do. There are so many options the "Warden" has that it begs the question if the hero is TOO good. Some of you claim that you can counter guard break him, well, if you need to dodge the initial charge, and the "Warden" decides to cancel in a guard break, you do know you can’t contest a GB during dodging..right?

Then some of you say to "roll away". What does this achieve? All this leads too is the Warden chasing you down, getting a free hit in only to enter back into the vortex (and remember, you are committing a lot of stamina just to escape this one move CONSTANTLY).

Then you have the "Warlord" which is arguably one of these most, maybe even the most ridiculous hero in the game. Do some of you honestly believe that being able to spam an unblockable head butt is balanced? Do you honest believe being able to use an all shield ability to guarantee free damage takes skill? Are you going to justify such an un-savoury play style? Really?

And to top things off, some of the maps in this game further add to the problem. How many maps feature narrow hallways, multiple ledges, multiple environmental hazards, or better yet...have you fight on a thin wood bridge...Why there was no option to ban maps in the tournament today is beyond (as many other Nobushi mains understand that the map selected can LITERALLY determine whether you will win or not due to the nature of how Nobushi is played)

The "Nobushi" is a character that entirely depends on spacing. The map I was made to play on today had no space to work with, not to mention that there was no room for me to use of the Nobushi's most powerful tools; the zone attack. Sadly, the Warlord in today's match was not constricted by this constriction knows as space, as all he had to do is spam his head butt charge.

To be frank, I and many other players do not enjoy this so called "skilled" game play style. Abusing a spammable, un-blockable move on maps with no space to manoeuvre is not skill based combat. At this rate, if a real FH scene emerges in the games current state, you are only going to see Warden / Warlord being viable in top tier play. Stop pretending spamming a certain attack takes skill. These two heroes simply are too versatile and are (frankly), too easy to play for the amount of value you can get out of their kit. Today was a perfect example. Why feint with the Nobushi when the Warlord can use all block to deflect my attacks? Why use HS when I am going to be head butt spammed into a wall or environmental hazard anyway? The point I’m getting at is why use the Nobushi when I can use either the Warlord or the Warden. They are must easier yet much more effective to play (as I played both heroes extensively in the closed alpha / beta).

There are very simple solutions to the issues at hand. First of all, the ability to cancel the Warden Shoulder Charge into a guard break needs to be removed. Being able to cancel the shoulder barge to set up a crushing counter strike would still allow the Warden to be viable whilst at the same time ensuring that the Warden can still implement a good mix up.

As for the Warlord, there NEEDS to be a stamina penalty on that Head butt spam. Don’t delude yourselves into believe that this move is balance, it is not and with some of the maps being designed to promote cheese tactics, it moves the game away from a skill based fighter to “Hey, I’ll keep spamming this move, get in the lucky guard break and rinse and repeat”.

In regards to how tournaments should be conducted, there needs to be an option to BAN maps. Perhaps I am bias in my opinion, but the Nobushi suffers the most from narrow, cluster phobic maps that prevent any zoning to occur. In addition to this, rules need to be clearly laid out and explained from the GET GO.

There was also a very peculiar incident today where a streamer was DQ’ed for apparently abusing a zone attack glitch. How this glitch is triggered is by having a certain character move their stance extremely quickly, which is then followed by a zone attack. The fact that this player was disqualified for such a thing doesn’t make any sense. I was watching this streamer on twitch, and he was simply trying to vary his attack pattern. And for me personally, seeing spam able attacks on bad maps is worse than any occasional zone attack bug.

I want to see this game succeed, and I also want to know that when I lose, it is because I was outplayed, not because I was played at a disadvantage due to bad map design as well as poor character balance. The game has been out for less than a month, and perhaps I am being too harsh, but this game has potential; let’s not put that potential to waste.

Corwyn4u
02-21-2017, 04:22 AM
So ..in a nutshell:

- You want Warden and Warlord to be nerfed, because they feel unbalanced fighting against them.
- Ban narrow maps for Nobushi players.
- And you are playing Nobushi as main.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Fuzzybutts
02-21-2017, 04:29 AM
As A warlord player... Yup.

Not so sure about the warden, but I have dealt with the shoulder charge enough to know its pretty crazy, especially when your stuck in a corner.

WOR-Hunter
02-21-2017, 04:35 AM
The only thing I find annoying is the ability to spam GB and Unblockable GBs.

A guard break should be like a zone attack. Take 1/2 your stamina.

Other than that the game is perfect.

Kensei feels a little overpowered. He's way to fast, have more health than intended, and has more damage than most heavies, considering one light attack can cut through an entire bar of health.

Orochi is strong, but I wouldn't say she needs to be nerfed.

Warden is strong, but doesn't need a nerf.

Warlord is tough, but doesn't need a nerf.


The analog you use to block shouldn't be allowed to just spin in a circle and hope to get it. No skill.


I don't really see any OP characters. Kensei is crazy, but beatable. I just hate how they nerfed a few characters (Warlord and PK) and buffed one (Kensei) before the game even came out. People eventually adapt to the game and people grow along with the game.

WOR-Hunter
02-21-2017, 04:37 AM
This isn't going to be the most organised thread you have ever seen, but I simply wanted to express my opinions about what happened today in a certain 1v1 tournament.

I'm sure most of you witnessed the Brandon 1vs1 tournament today. There were many brilliant games and in general, it was a very enjoyable experience. I'm also sure that you saw me (oSpooner), get stomped by the player "CuteAnimeGirl", in a Nobushi vs Warlord set up. Some of you may say that I am a "Bad Player", I beg to disagree.
Here is my stream where you can clearly see I did not reach my position because of “luck”, or being “bad”: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/123564126

There is a reason for that absolute stomp today, and that reason resides in the serious flaws with two heroes in this game, those heroes being the "Warden" and (in this specific case), the "Warlord".

Beginning with the Warden, his vortex is simply ridiculous. He can charge you down, he can cancel into a guard break and he can cancel for a crushing counter blow (one of the Warden’s signature moves).

Essentially, this creates a situation where a player has to guess what a Warden plans to do. There are so many options the "Warden" has that it begs the question if the hero is TOO good. Some of you claim that you can counter guard break him, well, if you need to dodge the initial charge, and the "Warden" decides to cancel in a guard break, you do know you can’t contest a GB during dodging..right?

Then some of you say to "roll away". What does this achieve? All this leads too is the Warden chasing you down, getting a free hit in only to enter back into the vortex (and remember, you are committing a lot of stamina just to escape this one move CONSTANTLY).

Then you have the "Warlord" which is arguably one of these most, maybe even the most ridiculous hero in the game. Do some of you honestly believe that being able to spam an unblockable head butt is balanced? Do you honest believe being able to use an all shield ability to guarantee free damage takes skill? Are you going to justify such an un-savoury play style? Really?

And to top things off, some of the maps in this game further add to the problem. How many maps feature narrow hallways, multiple ledges, multiple environmental hazards, or better yet...have you fight on a thin wood bridge...Why there was no option to ban maps in the tournament today is beyond (as many other Nobushi mains understand that the map selected can LITERALLY determine whether you will win or not due to the nature of how Nobushi is played)

The "Nobushi" is a character that entirely depends on spacing. The map I was made to play on today had no space to work with, not to mention that there was no room for me to use of the Nobushi's most powerful tools; the zone attack. Sadly, the Warlord in today's match was not constricted by this constriction knows as space, as all he had to do is spam his head butt charge.

To be frank, I and many other players do not enjoy this so called "skilled" game play style. Abusing a spammable, un-blockable move on maps with no space to manoeuvre is not skill based combat. At this rate, if a real FH scene emerges in the games current state, you are only going to see Warden / Warlord being viable in top tier play. Stop pretending spamming a certain attack takes skill. These two heroes simply are too versatile and are (frankly), too easy to play for the amount of value you can get out of their kit. Today was a perfect example. Why feint with the Nobushi when the Warlord can use all block to deflect my attacks? Why use HS when I am going to be head butt spammed into a wall or environmental hazard anyway? The point I’m getting at is why use the Nobushi when I can use either the Warlord or the Warden. They are must easier yet much more effective to play (as I played both heroes extensively in the closed alpha / beta).

There are very simple solutions to the issues at hand. First of all, the ability to cancel the Warden Shoulder Charge into a guard break needs to be removed. Being able to cancel the shoulder barge to set up a crushing counter strike would still allow the Warden to be viable whilst at the same time ensuring that the Warden can still implement a good mix up.

As for the Warlord, there NEEDS to be a stamina penalty on that Head butt spam. Don’t delude yourselves into believe that this move is balance, it is not and with some of the maps being designed to promote cheese tactics, it moves the game away from a skill based fighter to “Hey, I’ll keep spamming this move, get in the lucky guard break and rinse and repeat”.

In regards to how tournaments should be conducted, there needs to be an option to BAN maps. Perhaps I am bias in my opinion, but the Nobushi suffers the most from narrow, cluster phobic maps that prevent any zoning to occur. In addition to this, rules need to be clearly laid out and explained from the GET GO.

There was also a very peculiar incident today where a streamer was DQ’ed for apparently abusing a zone attack glitch. How this glitch is triggered is by having a certain character move their stance extremely quickly, which is then followed by a zone attack. The fact that this player was disqualified for such a thing doesn’t make any sense. I was watching this streamer on twitch, and he was simply trying to vary his attack pattern. And for me personally, seeing spam able attacks on bad maps is worse than any occasional zone attack bug.

I want to see this game succeed, and I also want to know that when I lose, it is because I was outplayed, not because I was played at a disadvantage due to bad map design as well as poor character balance. The game has been out for less than a month, and perhaps I am being too harsh, but this game has potential; let’s not put that potential to waste.

The game has been out for less than a week. It's not even broken or unbalanced. People have just found their advantages.

Gubermensch
02-21-2017, 04:37 AM
I agree for the most part.

2 max headbutts stam-wise for Warlord. Maybe even a larger stam penalty for all block.
Warden shoulder barge vortex needs to be more punishable or they need to remove the cancel to gb element.
More maps like the Shard with no edges or maps with larger edgeless areas (Forest cliff is a great example)

OP, I think most reasonable voices in the commmunity are saying the same thing. Give Ubi some time to resolve this. There's a lot involved in approving changes through the chain of command.

E-A-X
02-21-2017, 06:59 AM
Ive rewatched the entire stream just right now and i feel you there :| All that cheap stuff simply has to leave this game and that quick before every1s doing it.
You are not harsh with these things thats for sure, especially when we consider that we are playing on PC platform, a patch should drop every 3-5 days including adjustments, starting first off with the most broken things.

Varicose_Veins
02-21-2017, 07:06 AM
The Warden vortex and Warlord headbutt spam DO need a nerf no two ways about it. The reasons have already been explained ad infinitum.

And here's another reason why.

Aesthetically it looks incredibly silly and cheesy when watching the game and seeing a player doing the vortex or headbutt spam over and over and over. Forget Esport status if the combat is going to be this one dimensional.

Varicose_Veins
02-21-2017, 07:16 AM
In one of the semi finals of the event referred to it was Warlord vs Warlord.

No disrespect to the players involved but it was basically 75% headbutt-sword thrust over and over.

The comments from the 3000 Twitch viewers pretty much summed up what they thought of this as a spectacle...it wasn't flattering.

Any powerful repetitive-type attacks need to be tweaked. Quality gameplay will attract viewers and grow the community.

highdolo
02-21-2017, 08:00 AM
Which stream are you referring to with the 3000 ppl watching ?Could you link the offical stream from that entire tournament?? Cant find it.

HiTeHa
02-21-2017, 08:18 AM
Agree that unblockable charges / heatbutts leading to free hit is almost unavoidable, When I tryed Conqueror, if you get Revange, you can kill ANYONE just with charge => knockdown => heavy hit => charge => knockdown => heavy hit => charge => knockdown => heavy hit .... dead enemy. (( in Revange mode, your charge knockdown enemy ))


... yes it is silly (funny) but game mechanism allowing this. So ... maybe Ubisoft want this?!

BiZkiT_Walwin
02-21-2017, 10:03 AM
I can understand that the Warlords headbutt is op as it launches so fast but don't really see the point in the Wardens Vortex as it actually takes some time to launch and you never get more than one combo in as everyone already knows how to dodge it. The only way this can be useful is when your enemy is cornered but thats the same problem with every hero that can perform a bash then..

HiTeHa
02-21-2017, 10:35 AM
I can understand that the Warlords headbutt is op as it launches so fast but don't really see the point in the Wardens Vortex as it actually takes some time to launch and you never get more than one combo in as everyone already knows how to dodge it. The only way this can be useful is when your enemy is cornered but thats the same problem with every hero that can perform a bash then..

.. I think this is not what others want to say. You can insta-change Vortex into GB which is almost unavoidable, So before Wardens replenish his stamina, you are only "spectator" while you get damage. Am I right?

JeeNiNe
02-21-2017, 11:06 AM
I main warden and I can confirm that the vortex is OP but only vs certain characters, vs anyone who has a side light that can be directionally aimed no matter the dodging side, becomes hard to parry, but vs any character without side light its clearly OP. Dont get me wrong, side light are easily parryable, but not if they can be aimed to the opposite side of the dodge.

I still think the warden vortex needs a fix, and it could easily become very average without the vortex. Shoulder barge should still be cancelable, but not to initiate a GB, GB should have a delay while using the shoulder barge, and the warden doing the shoulder barge to cancel should still be able to counter GB even if he cannot initiate GB. Finally the warden would still have the option to GB or shoulder barge after a light, but it would be avoidable by reaction, just like the current similar attack by other heroes like Valk or Lawbringer.

Shugoki needs fixes tho lmao, that stupid super armor needs to stay down if the shugoki keep getting hit. The warlords headbutt needs increase stamina consumption. Nobushi needs to be able to be guardbroken after a parry, some classes cant even get a single hit on nobushi even if they parry her attacks, and the Peace keeper can virtually spam lights faster than you could block it for some character.
Also, a personal suggestion: make it so that bleed leaves one hp, it makes the fight more interesting instead of running away after a proc.
And yes, there should have maps without traps or ledges, I think this game would have been much better without 1 hit hazards, like falling or spikes. On the other hand, fire traps are pretty balance and add to the gameplay.

Robbeeeen
02-21-2017, 11:23 AM
First of all, Warden SB is punishable with a fast attack, unless you get hit by a light attack.
Basically, you have 3 moves that you can use as a Warden - toplight, zoneattack, vortex. ZA is punishable by GB if blocked, top-light has a distinctive sound and animation which makes it look completely different from a feint on all counts and vortex needs a light attack to hit in order to not get punished by a fast light attack during chargeup. IF you get hit by a light attack, roll away immediately.
His feints are god-awful because his animation is super-long and his other light attacks are ridiculously slow (you dont need to insta-parry a side-light and fall for a feint that way, as you need to do with PK for example) and he has no other fancy moves in his kit.
Many times already I've had the problem that people guard left and react to the sound my top-light makes, essentially becoming immune to my attacks, except for the SB.

I used to think it would maybe be enough to buff every other character to the level of the warden to circumvent the insane defence in this game, but I guess I was wrong. Give it a few weeks and many will be able to counter the wardens kit on reaction.


Also you seem to be forgetting that you are a Nobushi. Both classes have no way of punishing you off of parries because of your range. What the hell else are they supposed to do, other than spam the charge?

Razor__Fox
02-21-2017, 11:34 AM
Ive fought some good nobushis. If you are getting beaten by headbutt spam you are not among their number.

E-A-X
02-21-2017, 12:28 PM
I used to think it would maybe be enough to buff every other character to the level of the warden to circumvent the insane defence in this game, but I guess I was wrong. Give it a few weeks and many will be able to counter the wardens kit on reaction.


Also you seem to be forgetting that you are a Nobushi. Both classes have no way of punishing you off of parries because of your range. What the hell else are they supposed to do, other than spam the charge?

But how do you counter properly actually if there are many options for the warden? Like if i see some1 coming for a guardbreak im not even waiting for the counter guardbreak anymore, i straight up top light based on reactions (or any other attack, unless its a fast class), go into shoulderbash and from that i get the option to do exactly 5 different things, cancel into zone attack, cancel into top light,cancel into side light attacks cancel into guardbreak or keep going - all of these things are insanely quick and since this game has quite some noticeable lag on animations its even quicker.

While i agree that nobushi isnt that helpless against some, i also see the problem of nobushis keeping distance all day long - like this is a fighting game, some nobushis remain minimum distance to not get into the struggles that ive called above, means an extremly boring game.

Azerach
02-21-2017, 12:36 PM
The unblockables (or guard breaks) definitely need to cost more stamina so you can't put someone in a blender until they either guess correct or die.

I play Valkyrie and I feel pretty filthy winning off the leg sweep / guard break vortex even though the stamina cost is pretty high.

The-Grey-Night
02-21-2017, 01:01 PM
Other than that the game is perfect.

Kensei feels a little overpowered. He's way to fast, have more health than intended, and has more damage than most heavies, considering one light attack can cut through an entire bar of health.

Orochi is strong, but I wouldn't say she needs to be nerfed.

Warden is strong, but doesn't need a nerf.

Warlord is tough, but doesn't need a nerf.

You are far away from reality.

Immortal_Zeal
02-21-2017, 01:23 PM
He has a valid point. There's no way this game will achieve proper esport viability watching people spam the same things over and over. Easy things too. Anyone can spam a vortex, throw people off a ledge and headbutt indefinitely.

Stamina drain needs to be added to majority of these abilities. Also, coliseum or cage type arenas should be added.

Not a long, half broken bridge or cliffs idea. If the emphasis is skill and out thinking your opponent then the game shouldn't rely so heavy on cheap gimmicky environment kills.