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View Full Version : Thank you for making such a defensive based game



Allyrion8
02-21-2017, 12:13 AM
I see some complaints about the turtle meta sometimes. I just want to say that I really appreciate the flow of combat in this game because defending well is given such emphasis.

It's really why I've fallen in love with the game because if defense was more limited or more easily broken then, it would just be a twitch hack fest.

Instead, the really good fights have a lot of time with people positioning and finding an opportunity to strike. Then an explosive exchange or a few strikes but more tension gets added as the pressure builds up.

I love it and I love watching it. It's much more exciting to me than faster paced games. There's no suspense when you're always full throttle. There's no mind games.

It carries that feeling of fighting in real life a lot more because every approach should matter and be risky. The stamina also helps the pacing since you can't spam.

I just wanted to mention that some people like me appreciate that defensive play is foremost in this game. High level players still end fights with victors instead of watching each other till the time runs out, and the defender doesn't doesn't always win such exchanges.

But it allows the pressure to be mental rather than mechanical. An example of the latter being giving block a stamina cost would then create a time limit of engaging. The focus moves away from players sizing each other to the stamina bar reduction.

So yea, please consider the pacing of combat when making adjustments. I'd hate if we didn't continue to have long fights with a lot of positioning. It's way more epic this way in my opinion.

Anybody else feel that way?

Munktor
02-21-2017, 12:15 AM
Yes, I agree highly.

I personally don't think the game is geared AROUND defense, I just think it's one of the few games to ever release that actually allow defensive play to be viable.

Real fighting (weapon fighting) requires timing, patience, and quick thinking. Not just swinging a lot. This is why I love the combat in this game. Glad to hear others feel the same.

Rump_Buffalo
02-21-2017, 12:26 AM
The problem with the game is that defense is infinitely better/easier to win with than offense.

Parrying gives such a MASSIVE advantage that there is almost 0 reason to attack. It is easier and more advantageous for me to just wait and parry literally any attack to get a free GB that can instantly kill off a ledge and cannot be countered, or just heavy them. THAT is the problem.

balance 101 = defense should not be easier to use and superior to offense.

Stankyfoot
02-21-2017, 12:36 AM
I also like the defensive play, in fact I wish damage was a bit higher to really accentuate the tension of 1v1's

MrForz
02-21-2017, 12:39 AM
I thought it was a sarcasm, I'm glad I was so terribly wrong. I kinda agree with you.

Lufury
02-21-2017, 12:39 AM
alot of people crying that zerker, orochi and pks are attacking too fast. Idk people are never happy :D

Munktor
02-21-2017, 12:41 AM
The problem with the game is that defense is infinitely better/easier to win with than offense.

Parrying gives such a MASSIVE advantage that there is almost 0 reason to attack. It is easier and more advantageous for me to just wait and parry literally any attack to get a free GB that can instantly kill off a ledge and cannot be countered, or just heavy them. THAT is the problem.

balance 101 = defense should not be easier to use and superior to offense.

I'm confused, maybe I just haven't reached a certain level of play that you have...

I played both the Alpha and Beta and recognize a lot of the changes the game has gone through since.

You can always attempt to bash someone that is playing defensively. This will provide them the opportunity to dodge, but not parry. You can feint attacks to trick them into blocking the wrong direction, which will also negate the parry.

What you cannot do is just swing at them and hope for the best. I feel like reducing the effectiveness of blocking/parrying will serve nothing more than to turn this game back into a samurai spam-fest that the Alpha was.

Just my 2cents.

CPC-JazzMano
02-21-2017, 12:48 AM
Hey there, i'm fine too for the moment with the "defensive meta", it make me progress since you need to master the feint and others technics to beat them.

Allyrion8
02-21-2017, 03:12 AM
I think it's Really boring honestly - especially with revenge mode which means fights have more time standing and less time fighting. No one ever dies anymore unless they get ganked.

I know that might be boring to some but there's a lot of games that are much faster paced and few that have this type of long tension during fights.

Revenge only really procs when people get ganked except for a few that are really geared for revenge. Fights that stand still don't have much revenge because it only comes from active blocking, parrying or taking (/giving is traited) damage. And when you or the enemy has revenge then you're probably not standing still either. You're either attacking (if you have revenge) or defending (if the enemy has it).

Varicose_Veins
02-21-2017, 03:21 AM
It's one of the most immersive and fun fight models IMO.

And yes it skews towards defensiveness.

Having said that I have watched hundreds of hours of Twitch and the best players in Duels and Brawls.

As yet I have not witnessed defensiveness to the point of players endlessly standing-off and refusing to engage each other, but many are predicting that is where the meta will ultimately end up, especially in tournament/prizemoney situations, because the Defender has a big advantage.

Overbrutal1
02-21-2017, 03:57 AM
Hey there, i'm fine too for the moment with the "defensive meta", it make me progress since you need to master the feint and others technics to beat them.

I couldn't agree more! I believe there is a technique for everything! If somebody is good in defence you have to change your tactics to do feints. A defensive player like me can get so confused when that comes in i need to learn to handle it! I can fall out of focus so much and vulnerable for fast chain attacks.

In general I think the combat system is well balanced. If the balance get's changed, the game soon will become an attack spamming nonsense, making it a button mashing funtime for idiots... It's better to use your head, and know when to attack and when to defend. FOR HONOR!

Bolderox
02-21-2017, 04:21 AM
I am ok with the defensive playstyle being available, but in some cases, heros go from bad to worse when you have a conqueror endlessly block>parry>bash>free hit.
I also think it is a tad wrong to bring up feints so much, such in the case of the peacekeeper, she DOES NOT have the capability to feint an attack into other actions, she can only make a heavy>light stab bleed, which costs a decent chunk of stamina compared to say the warden who can feint 2 times and have some left over stamina.

Allyrion8
02-24-2017, 07:35 AM
In general I think the combat system is well balanced. If the balance get's changed, the game soon will become an attack spamming nonsense, making it a button mashing funtime for idiots... It's better to use your head, and know when to attack and when to defend. FOR HONOR!

I agree completely. It's a fine line.


I am ok with the defensive playstyle being available, but in some cases, heros go from bad to worse when you have a conqueror endlessly block>parry>bash>free hit.
I also think it is a tad wrong to bring up feints so much, such in the case of the peacekeeper, she DOES NOT have the capability to feint an attack into other actions, she can only make a heavy>light stab bleed, which costs a decent chunk of stamina compared to say the warden who can feint 2 times and have some left over stamina.

I think there could be more moves that open up defense. I wouldn't be against unblockables being unparryable too. Though I love to parry those, I think it would make sense.

Hogmin
02-24-2017, 07:43 AM
Hey there, i'm fine too for the moment with the "defensive meta", it make me progress since you need to master the feint and others technics to beat them.

At the end of the day, feinting is easily counterable as long as you're patient, and that's part of the issue. Defensive play is so strong that matches often turn into staring contests, attacker feints, defender tries to parry, but feints the parry and so on. It's boring, and uneventful.

Allyrion8
02-24-2017, 08:03 AM
At the end of the day, feinting is easily counterable as long as you're patient, and that's part of the issue. Defensive play is so strong that matches often turn into staring contests, attacker feints, defender tries to parry, but feints the parry and so on. It's boring, and uneventful.

Maybe it's weird but that's enjoyable to me. The long pauses of combat are like a mental battle. That pacing is interesting and there are few games that have it. It might be niche but there are some that appreciate it.

Most of all, I want to keep that pacing. That careful approach before attacking. They could add more ways to get through defense but I'd be disappointed if that changed the flow to one of spamming attacks and overly offensive.

Hogmin
02-24-2017, 08:06 AM
Maybe it's weird but that's enjoyable to me. The long pauses of combat are like a mental battle. That pacing is interesting and there are few games that have it. It might be niche but there are some that appreciate it.

Most of all, I want to keep that pacing. That careful approach before attacking. They could add more ways to get through defense but I'd be disappointed if that changed the flow to one of spamming attacks and overly offensive.

It may not have sounded like it from my original post, but I actually do agree. I enjoy the pauses, where each combatant is running through many scenarios in his head, but it's when that becomes constant that it's old. 1v1 all I see now is Wardens standing in high guard that I can't contest staring at me waiting to either A)Crushing counter B)Zone attack C)Parry into guardbreak or D)Vortex spam.

There should be more options to breach defense, but not so easy as to make spam the norm, either.

Zadawn
02-24-2017, 09:38 AM
Come face my warlord and then tell me you like defensive play. I will counter your GB 99% of the time and the rest I will wait to parry your attacks and punish you which I can do with ease almost every time unless you're a good PK doing lights which are harder to parry but still doable. I assure you after one of these fights you will come back here and edit your post or delete it altogether. I'm pretty sure you haven't see two good players fighting it out defensively. It's boring and if they are both patient it ends in a draw.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 09:54 AM
Come face my warlord and then tell me you like defensive play. I will counter your GB 99% of the time and the rest I will wait to parry your attacks and punish you which I can do with ease almost every time unless you're a good PK doing lights which are harder to parry but still doable. I assure you after one of these fights you will come back here and edit your post or delete it altogether. I'm pretty sure you haven't see two good players fighting it out defensively. It's boring and if they are both patient it ends in a draw.

Un-necessarily braggy, but true.

The problem isn't that defensive meta is "popular". It's that it has NO flaws or counters. When you face off against anyone who knows that defense is uncontestably the best option, attacking first is basically always going to lose you the match.

In an ideal world there would be ups and downs for both aggressive AND defensive play, but For Honor has failed to deliver that ideal world.

Because of this defensive meta a lot of things that the heroes can do become completely useless.

Seriously, just TRY playing a Lawbringer against that guy's Warlord. Or, really. Try playing a Lawbringer against anyone properly utilizing Defensive Meta for that matter.

Aarpian
02-24-2017, 10:16 AM
It's one of the most immersive and fun fight models IMO.

And yes it skews towards defensiveness.

Having said that I have watched hundreds of hours of Twitch and the best players in Duels and Brawls.

As yet I have not witnessed defensiveness to the point of players endlessly standing-off and refusing to engage each other, but many are predicting that is where the meta will ultimately end up, especially in tournament/prizemoney situations, because the Defender has a big advantage.

You don't see this because all the top-tier characters that people will play in tournaments can bypass the inherent strength of parries. I know that if I stare at a Warlord I will eventually get headbutted to death. If I stare at a PK I will get chipped down with unpunishable zone attacks. If I stare at a Kensei or Raider, I can laugh at him all day and parry when I feel like it.

A better answer than "give everyone gimmick ********" would be to just make the base assets available to all classes actually useable.