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SunMoguiZi
02-20-2017, 09:14 PM
The hidden stance needs to be patched. It's an atrocity because we can't do 95% (exaggeration) of the moves shown in the advanced how-to fight tutorial.

The hidden stance is much harder to do than the warlord getting into his "total defense" mode and yet they use the same method of controls to utilize these special abilities.

The start-up light or heavy to hidden stance feint is completely unactive. So if we attack a competent assassin they know all they have to do is dodge to the left or right (whichever is at their leisure) and attack. Thus granting them free reign on nobushi's at all times. So that completely dismantles the option of keeping assailants at bay (which is the main objective of Nobushi).

The closing hidden stance is unable to be utilized as well. So against anyone if they are competent, once again, have a complete opening after any attacks. The only sure fire attack Nobushi has is if and only if the unblockable kick lands the next two light attacks are in.

I hope these are fixed by patch. I'm not asking for buffs. Just the ability to use the character the way she was intended.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 10:30 PM
Many players don't know but Nobushi can't enter hidden stance while changing stances. So if you are seeing a stance change animation don't even attempt to go into hidden stance, doesn't work.

Regarding assassins, yes they can counter play her and try to depend only on side dodge attacks (a dodge that I do consider to have ridiculous low timing requirement for how useful and rewarding it potentially is). Good advice would be to single input the attack to be able to still defend against the upcoming attack or even feint and try to connect a normal light attack as he is going into dodge.

If the assassin is exclusively depending on the side dodge attack, position yourself to parry and viper's retreat right after. Against assassins, specially as a nobushi, you have to play the opportunistic, interrupt guard break when possible way, hidden stance to counter is a very good option if used to dodge and counter end chain attacks or attacks the have some recovery so you can guarantee hit,

Anyway, it is a hard match up for her, and for anyone for that matter when they are exclusively depending on the opponent to attack first.

As for buffing the ability to go into hidden stance, I honestly don't think it would be a good idea. I consider it definitely hard to do on controller but also possible to master. If it becomes to easy to do, considering the insta dodge and counter it provides it could become too strong or even broken.

Hope the ideas help you somehow. Cheers

Zeolite XIII
02-20-2017, 10:35 PM
Many players don't know but Nobushi can't enter hidden stance while changing stances. So if you are seeing a stance change animation don't even attempt to go into hidden stance, doesn't work.

Regarding assassins, yes they can counter play her and try to depend only on side dodge attacks (a dodge that I do consider to have ridiculous low timing requirement for how useful and rewarding it potentially is). Good advice would be to single input the attack to be able to still defend against the upcoming attack or even feint and try to connect a normal light attack as he is going into dodge.

If the assassin is exclusively depending on the side dodge attack, position yourself to parry and viper's retreat right after. Against assassins, specially as a nobushi, you have to play the opportunistic, interrupt guard break when possible way, hidden stance to counter is a very good option if used to dodge and counter end chain attacks or attacks the have some recovery so you can guarantee hit,

Anyway, it is a hard match up for her, and for anyone for that matter when they are exclusively depending on the opponent to attack first.

As for buffing the ability to go into hidden stance, I honestly don't think it would be a good idea. I consider it definitely hard to do on controller but also possible to master. If it becomes to easy to do, considering the insta dodge and counter it provides it could become too strong or even broken.

Hope the ideas help you somehow. Cheers

I was finding it difficult to get into the stance as well but after reading this it might be due to the stance change, i'm going to have to test this now. Thanks for the info :)

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 10:42 PM
I was finding it difficult to get into the stance as well but after reading this it might be due to the stance change, i'm going to have to test this now. Thanks for the info :)

Np buddy. Glad I could help.

Most players assume she is easy to play and/or master when imvho she's the complete opposite.

Very demanding, opportunistic and timed playstyle while having the most demanding stamina economy in the game and being very punishable whenever making a mistake. For me she is in fact one of the top 3 in terms of skill cap to master.

She is a noob stomper and punishes anyone that isn't focusing in defending against her while within her range. But she has a lot going against her too.

Hidden stance is very punishing staminawise and for a reason, so she can't depend on it to defend and also so she has to be smart about when and how to use it. Having said that, the time penalty for stamina regen after use does seem to be a bit too long, could use some tweaking.

Making it easy would just take away from the beauty I see and find when playing this very interesting char. Probably one of the most balanced in game atm.

Zeolite XIII
02-20-2017, 11:06 PM
Np buddy. Glad I could help.

Most players assume she is easy to play and/or master when imvho she's the complete opposite.

Very demanding, opportunistic and timed playstyle while having the most demanding stamina economy in the game and being very punishable whenever making a mistake. For me she is in fact one of the top 3 in terms of skill cap to master.

She is a noob stomper and punishes anyone that isn't focusing in defending against her while within her range. But she has a lot going against her too.

Hidden stance is very punishing staminawise and for a reason, so she can't depend on it to defend and also so she has to be smart about when and how to use it. Having said that, the time penalty for stamina regen after use does seem to be a bit too long, could use some tweaking.

Making it easy would just take away from the beauty I see and find when playing this very interesting char. Probably one of the most balanced in game atm.

It's that difficulty that drew me to her in the beta's. I enjoy knowing i have to be on my toes in every match and that its just as easy with her to get shut down as it is to shut people down. it keeps the game interesting. But really there is something about her play style that reminds me of when i used to fence competitively in high school and college. For whatever reason playing her really makes me feel like im back on the strip with an epee in my hand trying to outwit an opponent :)

SunMoguiZi
02-21-2017, 01:07 AM
Many players don't know but Nobushi can't enter hidden stance while changing stances. So if you are seeing a stance change animation don't even attempt to go into hidden stance, doesn't work.

Regarding assassins, yes they can counter play her and try to depend only on side dodge attacks (a dodge that I do consider to have ridiculous low timing requirement for how useful and rewarding it potentially is). Good advice would be to single input the attack to be able to still defend against the upcoming attack or even feint and try to connect a normal light attack as he is going into dodge.

If the assassin is exclusively depending on the side dodge attack, position yourself to parry and viper's retreat right after. Against assassins, specially as a nobushi, you have to play the opportunistic, interrupt guard break when possible way, hidden stance to counter is a very good option if used to dodge and counter end chain attacks or attacks the have some recovery so you can guarantee hit,

Anyway, it is a hard match up for her, and for anyone for that matter when they are exclusively depending on the opponent to attack first.

As for buffing the ability to go into hidden stance, I honestly don't think it would be a good idea. I consider it definitely hard to do on controller but also possible to master. If it becomes to easy to do, considering the insta dodge and counter it provides it could become too strong or even broken.

Hope the ideas help you somehow. Cheers

Mate it's not the stance change. And the info you have provided will not assist my endevours to use Nobushi the way she was intended.

You haven't acknowledged the feint to hidden stance nor any of the other issues with Nobushi which are not able to be used.

The summary of your refute was "Git Gud". ( I understand you probably didn't mean it that way but being rep 5 with Nobushi I don't exactly consider myself a neophyte.)

A simple attack with Nobushi still gets punished whenever it is done. With that simple dodge roll and attack. That's it. I mean try it with any level 3 PK. She well punish you all day with that move. Its simple.

And waiting to parry shouldn't be the only option. As we have the hidden stance. And the quick attacks can't always be parried as well. Any assasin shooting for anything but a light attack it trying finish with an execution. And I'm not trying to wait until I have a bar of health to actually make a move of response.

I understand you believe it maybe looked upon as overpowered but not being able to use a character to their full potential is horrendous as well. (Edit : But isn't the Warlord's ability similar in taste? It blocks everywhere and ends the combo no matter what the case. For less stamina as well. And yet getting into the stance/mode is easy a pie.)

I just want consistency. If there is a certain method to get to work each time on a ps4 controller, ( along with the promised feints, ending stances, dodging, and lastly kicking from hidden stance.) tell me so I can silence myself.

Tell me when was the last time you saw any good player of any character not use their what they were taught in the advanced how-to fight tutorial they were given?

neogeo___
02-21-2017, 01:28 AM
It was never a git gud scrub reply, and I wouldn't even have taken the time if I didn't mean to help. omg, this forum honestly, I get that's the usual attitude here, but not all fingers are thumbs you know?

I really don't think making the stance easier to connect would be a good thing. I don't, again I consider it hard but possible to master. A lot like hitting the GB tech break timing, at start it might seem impossible, but with practice one can get there.

You can cancel the recoveries into hidden stance by inputting the command even before it's possible startup timing and holding it there. No circle needed just in case you didn't know.

As for always getting punished if you attack, unless she deflects you (intended mechanic to guarantee hit) you won't. Stick with single light attacks even if you you the start up from the dodge light attack combo, you'll be able to block or parry her incoming side dodge attack. Feint and guard break if you notice that the peacekeeper isn't always going for the side dodge attack combo. or feint to bait and go into hidden stance. Explore your side dodge heavy too, I've punished many assassins with it and most don't expect it, although you can't depend on it.

This is pretty much the way Nobushi is intended to play, opportunistic hits and interrupts while trying to area control and remain unpredictable.

That type of gameplay from assassins is problematic for every hero. If they explore the single counter retreat rinse and repeat they are very annoying, and the lack of timing for input needed is absurd imvho.

It is definitely hard, but from experience with practice you do notice it gets a lot easier and reliable. Main problem for me was feeling it is unreliable and so the player avoids to use it for fear on missing the input.
I honestly get where you are coming from but I still feel it might become a bit too powerful if too easy to do. Also usually I favor skill cap and precise input in fighting games as long as I consider it to be possible to master. Wouldn't say I've fully mastered it, but I've been farther to doing so than I am now.

If you're also on console I'd advice 2 things, if you have kontrol freaks or any type of analog extension remove it, I know that more precision should translate to higher sensitivity and room for error in input, but you have to account for your hand's range of movement too. It honestly helped me a lot in this game not playing with the kontrol freaks and I did the Alpha and CB with them on, can attest to not being BS I'm feeding you.

Finally, reconfigure controls, I have a dedicated finger for every pertinent control, LA, HA, Dodge, GB, Movement, Stance, while having guard mode in toggle, this helps you to keep your offset postion and knowing where is down without having to process the correct finger position everytime you go for a dodge and come back to the analog.

Try it. Let me know

Oupyz
02-21-2017, 01:34 AM
Many players don't know but Nobushi can't enter hidden stance while changing stances. So if you are seeing a stance change animation don't even attempt to go into hidden stance, doesn't work.

Regarding assassins, yes they can counter play her and try to depend only on side dodge attacks (a dodge that I do consider to have ridiculous low timing requirement for how useful and rewarding it potentially is). Good advice would be to single input the attack to be able to still defend against the upcoming attack or even feint and try to connect a normal light attack as he is going into dodge.

If the assassin is exclusively depending on the side dodge attack, position yourself to parry and viper's retreat right after. Against assassins, specially as a nobushi, you have to play the opportunistic, interrupt guard break when possible way, hidden stance to counter is a very good option if used to dodge and counter end chain attacks or attacks the have some recovery so you can guarantee hit,

Anyway, it is a hard match up for her, and for anyone for that matter when they are exclusively depending on the opponent to attack first.

As for buffing the ability to go into hidden stance, I honestly don't think it would be a good idea. I consider it definitely hard to do on controller but also possible to master. If it becomes to easy to do, considering the insta dodge and counter it provides it could become too strong or even broken.

Hope the ideas help you somehow. Cheers

and why it shouldn't work ?

i think it's more like a bug more than anything else

neogeo___
02-21-2017, 01:40 AM
switching stances?

It's kind of an input penalty, a common mechanic in fighting games to promote precise input, punish mistakes while adding risk to the move and denying mash to input to some degree.

Having said this, is a type of mechanic that is very needed and should be transversal to the roster, specially for assassins which is usually the class and general type of char where you see such miss timing/input countermeasures the most.

SunMoguiZi
02-21-2017, 01:59 AM
It was never a git gud scrub reply, and I wouldn't even have taken the time if I didn't mean to help. omg, this forum honestly, I get that's the usual attitude here, but not all fingers are thumbs you know?

I really don't think making the stance easier to connect would be a good thing. I don't, again I consider it hard but possible to master. A lot like hitting the GB tech break timing, at start it might seem impossible, but with practice one can get there.

You can cancel the recoveries into hidden stance by inputting the command even before it's possible startup timing and holding it there. No circle needed just in case you didn't know.

As for always getting punished if you attack, unless she deflects you (intended mechanic to guarantee hit) you won't. Stick with single light attacks even if you you the start up from the dodge light attack combo, you'll be able to block or parry her incoming side dodge attack. Feint and guard break if you notice that the peacekeeper isn't always going for the side dodge attack combo. or feint to bait and go into hidden stance. Explore your side dodge heavy too, I've punished many assassins with it and most don't expect it, although you can't depend on it.

This is pretty much the way Nobushi is intended to play, opportunistic hits and interrupts while trying to area control and remain unpredictable.

That type of gameplay from assassins is problematic for every hero. If they explore the single counter retreat rinse and repeat they are very annoying, and the lack of timing for input needed is absurd imvho.

It is definitely hard, but from experience with practice you do notice it gets a lot easier and reliable. Main problem for me was feeling it is unreliable and so the player avoids to use it for fear on missing the input.
I honestly get where you are coming from but I still feel it might become a bit too powerful if too easy to do. Also usually I favor skill cap and precise input in fighting games as long as I consider it to be possible to master. Wouldn't say I've fully mastered it, but I've been farther to doing so than I am now.

If you're also on console I'd advice 2 things, if you have kontrol freaks or any type of analog extension remove it, I know that more precision should translate to higher sensitivity and room for error in input, but you have to account for your hand's range of movement too. It honestly helped me a lot in this game not playing with the kontrol freaks and I did the Alpha and CB with them on, can attest to not being BS I'm feeding you.

Finally, reconfigure controls, I have a dedicated finger for every pertinent control, LA, HA, Dodge, GB, Movement, Stance, while having guard mode in toggle, this helps you to keep your offset postion and knowing where is down without having to process the correct finger position everytime you go for a dodge and come back to the analog.

Try it. Let me know

I know the input for recovery. But what about feints from light attacks into hidden stance? Dodge from hidden stance? Kick from hidden stance? Do you have these down? Do you ever pull these moves off even practice mode?

And the analog covers I utilize assist tremendously. But if you insist I will try.

And I'm on a console. How do I reconfigure controls?

l-Sir_Smite-l
02-21-2017, 02:32 AM
Many players don't know but Nobushi can't enter hidden stance while changing stances. So if you are seeing a stance change animation don't even attempt to go into hidden stance, doesn't work.

Add me among that list. That explains a lot.

Thank you, good sir.

neogeo___
02-21-2017, 10:39 AM
I know the input for recovery. But what about feints from light attacks into hidden stance? Dodge from hidden stance? Kick from hidden stance? Do you have these down? Do you ever pull these moves off even practice mode?

And the analog covers I utilize assist tremendously. But if you insist I will try.

And I'm on a console. How do I reconfigure controls?

IDK about the feints and dodges, but yes to recovery cancel times after kicks, attacks.

And yes I've went and suceeded pin the enemy and going straight hidden stance kick, general problem with the kick is the it's interruptable and probably the slowest unblockable throw back in the game atm. Pretty much the definition of useless, with way too much of a stamina cost and risk for it's reliability

As for reconfiguring, go on your system settings, and check out the accessibility options

SunMoguiZi
02-21-2017, 05:42 PM
IDK about the feints and dodges, but yes to recovery cancel times after kicks, attacks.

And yes I've went and suceeded pin the enemy and going straight hidden stance kick, general problem with the kick is the it's interruptable and probably the slowest unblockable throw back in the game atm. Pretty much the definition of useless, with way too much of a stamina cost and risk for it's reliability

As for reconfiguring, go on your system settings, and check out the accessibility options

I believe you might misunderstand mate. Not recovery after kick but kick from hidden stance. Its very efficient to dodge an heavy blow and kick to regain distance. I definitely understand your cons of it but I know it can be utilized efficiently.

And thank you for the reconfiguration assistance. I greatly appreciate it. I've change the option for square to L3 thus enabling the ability the kick from hidden stance and quick access to guard break.

As for the feint hidden stance it requires diligence but the ability is there. Try to light attack and then almost soon after hidden stance after a moment. Then and only then will you be able to feint hidden stance.

Now the only problem is dodging from hidden stance and switching the stance while in hidden stance.

Testing has proved most efficient by the way. A new level of expertise has been found and applied.

I'm curious about your application of controls. Do tell mate.

JirouXD
03-04-2017, 01:48 AM
The hidden stance needs to be patched. It's an atrocity because we can't do 95% (exaggeration) of the moves shown in the advanced how-to fight tutorial.

The hidden stance is much harder to do than the warlord getting into his "total defense" mode and yet they use the same method of controls to utilize these special abilities.

The start-up light or heavy to hidden stance feint is completely unactive. So if we attack a competent assassin they know all they have to do is dodge to the left or right (whichever is at their leisure) and attack. Thus granting them free reign on nobushi's at all times. So that completely dismantles the option of keeping assailants at bay (which is the main objective of Nobushi).

The closing hidden stance is unable to be utilized as well. So against anyone if they are competent, once again, have a complete opening after any attacks. The only sure fire attack Nobushi has is if and only if the unblockable kick lands the next two light attacks are in.

I hope these are fixed by patch. I'm not asking for buffs. Just the ability to use the character the way she was intended.


Take this with a grain of salt because I have just started playing.

I noticed similar to you, using a console controller causes a great deal of issues with being able to accurately enter the hidden stances because the use of a joy stick.

From some testing I did after reading your post, I found that if you hold your guard stance in the down position it tends to activate no matter how your R3 stick reached that point. It appears from testing, when using a controller that relying on holding the stick in the down position is the most reliable way to cause the stance to activate. The only issue I notice with this particular method is it doesn't completely fix the consistency of feinting your attacks into your hidden stance. But this could be because of my newness and not the method itself.

CuD_
03-04-2017, 02:25 AM
The hidden stance needs to be patched. It's an atrocity because we can't do 95% (exaggeration) of the moves shown in the advanced how-to fight tutorial.

The hidden stance is much harder to do than the warlord getting into his "total defense" mode and yet they use the same method of controls to utilize these special abilities.

The start-up light or heavy to hidden stance feint is completely unactive. So if we attack a competent assassin they know all they have to do is dodge to the left or right (whichever is at their leisure) and attack. Thus granting them free reign on nobushi's at all times. So that completely dismantles the option of keeping assailants at bay (which is the main objective of Nobushi).

The closing hidden stance is unable to be utilized as well. So against anyone if they are competent, once again, have a complete opening after any attacks. The only sure fire attack Nobushi has is if and only if the unblockable kick lands the next two light attacks are in.

I hope these are fixed by patch. I'm not asking for buffs. Just the ability to use the character the way she was intended.

This was not a problem in beta, I think it is related to the slowed down blocking that they added at release(and refuse to comment on :mad:)

If you are stance changing, or recently changed stances, you cannot trigger it. There are so many things you can do which will prevent you from entering this stance that they have effectively broken it in 90% of situations where you would want to use it.