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Somedudesome
02-20-2017, 06:23 PM
Hi guys, just wanted to give some of my own feedback on how things are going as a Rep 3 PK. First off, I want to say how awesome the balance currently is in comparison to other multiplayer-competitive games I've played so kudos to you guys/gals at Ubisoft. However, it's impossible to perfectly balance any game and even one such as this could always use tweaks. Here's a list of changes i'd like to be considered.

Knights

Warden: Arguably one of the strongest classes mostly due to having a lack of weaknesses. You can't contest the top due to crushing counter, has solid range and decent damage with average movement speed. As it stands, one of the most glaring issue's I see is the ability to cancel Shoulderbash into a GB. Recently, Warlord was able to do the samething with Headbutt but that got removed. I feel like the same change should happen here OR shorten the window to cancel but still allow it. One other move i'd like to see looked at is the Zone Attack, currently it has great speed with amazing reach. However, if blocked, you get a guaranteed Guard-break. I don't find this move particularly too strong but I do believe one of two things could be changed here. 1: Either slow it down slightly or two: Fix the indicator's popping from 1 direction to another, this seems to trip up a lot of people.

Conqueror: Excellent defense with a tad bit below-average damage output. This classes Shield bash is completely safe when playing against someone who's experienced. It's literally impossible to punish but is relatively fair since it doesn't have insane speed nor can it be cancelled into a guard-break. Not sure what should be done with this outside of having some sort of counter to it so you can punish a whiffed Shield bash. Also, this is something I've tested but the Conqueror is the only class that you cannot get a guaranteed heavy off of a light parry, his recovery time is shorter than the other classes(This from a PK's heavies).

Peacekeeper: Very short range with fast attacks and an even faster Zone attack, probably the fastest in the game. As a PK main, outside of the problematic bleeds that can be very punishing, my main concern is how fast the Zone attack is. I'd like to see 2 nerfs to her. One: Reduce the bleed damage on GB from 2 bars to 1 1/2, and either slow down her ZA so it can be reacted to OR remove the ability to cancel the second half of it.

Lawbringer: Solid health with less than average in-combat mobility. I'd like to see his side-lights sped up a little. His top-light has good speed so we can leave it at that. Not sure what else we could do with the big guy.


Samurai

Kensei: This guy feels relatively balanced even if he has the strongest lights in the game from the recent patch. Not sure what we could change with this one. Maybe speed on his side lights a tad.

Shugoki: Outside of the bugs related to his unblockable triggering hitting twice and not being able to be parried, there's only 1 change i'd like to see to this fella. His out-of-combat sprint that guarantee's a heavy on Knock down is a bit too strong. All I've been seeing is Goki's running around out of combat and either sprinting for a KD or cancelling into either a heavy/gb. I feel there needs to be a bit more of a startup to this ability.

Orochi: Fast, excellent damage. This guy is solid. Now some may hate me for saying this but I feel there needs to be at least 1, maybe 2 changes implemented to this class. First off, like the other Zone attacks mentioned, it most likely needs to be slowed down. Fast Zone attacks shouldn't be your best form of poke-damage. Secondly, and this one i'm not 100% sure on, look at their ability to get a guaranteed 2nd light off of the first one from the top. This combo does as much as a heavy while being MUCH faster. No other class in this game gets a guaranteed 2nd light with such speed(I know the warden can get it with his sides but it's much slower and you have to actually time the 2nd hit).

Nobushi: This is going to sound hilarious but I actually find her to be quite balanced. Granted she has excellent damage, range and speed. Idea's would be greatly appreciated.

Vikings

Raider: Good out-of-combat speed, solid damage. I feels the only real change this guy needs is slightly faster lights, something as an opener like other classes have.

Warlord: Even after the nerfs, this guy is still strong, just not head-over-heels above everyone else. His headbutt is still incredibly quick but much more fair. Again, this one is tough so I am not sure what to change on him.

Berserker: Outside of the bug that allows a Guardbreak from blocking a light, this one feels very balanced.

Valkyrie: Outside of lowering some recovery times, she's also very balanced. Fast and average damage with great range.


Closing comments

Like I said, this game feels VERY balanced as is outside of a few notable changes. Obviously these suggestions/comments are just my opinion and others may present a better argument. I hope we can have that discussion here, thank you.

Shinimas
02-20-2017, 07:34 PM
Agreed on pretty much everything. Just a few little things to add:

Lawbringer: his main weakness is the lack of an attack after dodging, which makes fighting good Conquerors and Warlords incredibly difficult. I think his light attacks and especially after-Shove light attacks should be sped up. After-Shove lights are among the lowest damaging strikes in the game, there's really no reason for them to be that slow. With his Shove becoming a bit more dangerous this class will receive the needed offensive power and also a more punishing (albeit still not guaranteed) after dodge retaliation.

Warlord: I'd reduce the tracking on his Headbutt by just a little bit. Feels like his forehead has a magnet inside it.

Warden and vortex combos in general: while you can roll out of his vortex, the fact you have to do it makes the game frustrating. I don't think you should be able to roll out of 50/50 combos, but I do think there should always be a way to avoid AND punish the vortex if you predict correctly. Right now you may be able to light attack a Warden when he charges in your face and cancels it in a guard break, but not all classes possess attacks that are fast enough for it. I think vortexes should be in the game, but in Warden's case, the cancel shouldn't be as quick, so that you can definitely get punished by a light attack if you get too predictable.

P.S. While this thread is about classes, can be get rid of revenge on gear in Elimination/Dominion? Getting Revenge after getting hit like 3 times is a bit silly. Stats in general really screw with the balance of the game, imo. I hope we won't see them in ranked mode.

Somedudesome
02-20-2017, 07:59 PM
Fair points, i'd say if you want to keep the 50/50 on Warden, shorten the window to cancel it.

UbiJurassic
02-20-2017, 08:07 PM
Great write-up and discussion on class balance! Thanks for taking the time to leave your comments, Arkenelric!

Somedudesome
02-20-2017, 08:17 PM
That's very kind UbiJurassic!! I really appreciate the response. I know you guys are busy but we'd love some feedback/thoughts from you guys.

Panzer_Cmndr
02-20-2017, 08:29 PM
I disagree strongly with most of the Asian classes, they are far from balanced and very much OP, hence the migration towards them by most. It is nothing to see these classes with double digit kills and zero to three deaths per match.

Thanapetus
02-20-2017, 08:36 PM
Allow me to retort to your analysis

Wardens: Fine as is

Conqueror: Need stamina reduction and shieldbash needs to push back much more. Seriously, a giant tin can sprinting should be able to slide someone backwards if the nodashi can kick them backwards standing still.

Peacekeeper: The bleed reduction should be down to 1 bar, I agree with the Zone attack but the mobility should be looked at. Peacekeepers with their speed/Damage need a serious adjustment.

Lawbringer - Running charge should be unblockable if conqueror has an unblockable charge, lawbringer should have some form of attack speed increase no more than 10-15% OR stamina reduction by the same amount

I have yet to play a Viking so it would be unfair for me to comment outside of this.

Raiders need to have swing speed or stamina reduction

Now the Samurai

I think the Kensei is fine. Overall, solid class and in my opinion the most balanced class in the game.

Shugoki- Same treatment as Lawbringer and Raider. Swing speed OR stamina reduction. You complain about Shugoki run but dont mention the mobility and swing speed of other classes?

Orochi- Need serious swing speed reduction OR damage reduction. Dodges should be a tactical choice not part of a kit.

Nobushi - bleeds off a light attack chain? GTFO with that. Nobushi can bleed but any other bladed/piercing weapon cant?


Overall the game needs:
a) Revenge mode replaced with chance to inflict bleed and higher the chance the less damage a bleed can do. Bleeds should do no more than 20% damage and killing X amount of soldiers with the right perk should cure it. (Dont try and play the realism card with me, Ill rip that apart with a verbal barrage that will unwind your very existence)

b) Matchmaking based off of characters not overall achievement. If I am playing a rank 2 kensei and I decide to play a warden I shouldnt be lumped into rep 4 108 peacekeepers

C) Dedicated servers- the benefits of customer happiness will be rewarded with continued revenue and your microtransaction planning

D) A way to rate players and/or block them so players dont have to play with/against them again.

Gensui.Musashi
02-20-2017, 08:42 PM
at the end you all just cry about the orochi. i never had any problems with killing him. maybe you just cant react. who knows.



let me tell you a real problem. I dont have full gear but when someone hit me i instantly get revenge.

ThePollie
02-20-2017, 08:46 PM
If you slow down the zone-attack on Wardens you will kill the ability.

It's a high-cost/low damage ability that is brutally punished by even a mere block. If you make it even easier to block, you will kill any use this ability has.

There is a reason Orochi storm-rush sees virtually no use at high-level play. It's too slow and obvious, you get parried every time.

xW11nD
02-20-2017, 08:47 PM
Orochi- Need serious swing speed reduction OR damage reduction. Dodges should be a tactical choice not part of a kit.

Nobushi - bleeds off a light attack chain? GTFO with that. Nobushi can bleed but any other bladed/piercing weapon cant?

I think a little damage reduction on the orochi should suffice no? By being decent at blocking/countergbing you can already counter the orochi quite a lot, since his attacks are fairly easily predictable. Being good at blocking and cbg leaves the orochi only with little options left.

As for the nobushi, personally I literally have no problems with her. What I do is just playing of the mistakes she makes, or come close focus on blocking and when she starts to move back more ill throw in feints/gbs.

JohnWick87
02-20-2017, 08:47 PM
at the moment, i dont understand the game... i think, i am a good player and often beat a few people at once and have really intense duels with good players . and other times some people spam the same kick /run and throw or whatever attack after another and you cannot even dodge it. even if you react right...
Normaly i really love this game. But today i hate it, something seems not to work right....

Lufury
02-20-2017, 09:10 PM
b) Matchmaking based off of characters not overall achievement. If I am playing a rank 2 kensei and I decide to play a warden I shouldnt be lumped into rep 4 108 peacekeepers.

no cant agree with that at all. you have so much gaming experience on Prest 2 Allready. you play a half hour against a lvl 3 bot with a new Character and you are ready to go it is much harder to learn the game basics instead of getting the basics of another hero. Just new Player Accounts should have a "new" filter

Hackfraysn
02-20-2017, 09:16 PM
Great write-up and discussion on class balance! Thanks for taking the time to leave your comments, Arkenelric!

I get the impression that you guys only respond to praise, not constructive criticism.

Do you really think Raider is in a good spot and his only current weakness is that his quickattacks are a tad too slow, as Arkenelric claims to be the case? You don't think he's lacking versatility (ironically as a class that's supposed to be versatile) because he has an utterly predictable opener, no chain where you can combine light and heavy attacks? And don't get me started on his laughable block-switch speed or his stamina drain on zone attack feints and the heavy attack speed that even a grandpa can go grab a cup of coffee, walk the dog, wait until his Viagra is working and be back just in time to parry Raider's heavy? Oh boy...I can tell you Raider's not very legendary outside of the campaign.

You don't think Lawbringer's ripostes are way too easy to parry, which is ridiculously ironic for the parry class to be the easiest class to parry in the game (actually ties with Raider)? You don't think it's bad when a defensive parry class with limited offensive capabilities and horribly slow attacks struggles with low guardswitch speed against Cheesekeeper quickattack spam? Seriously, parrying with LOLbringer feels quite unrewarding considering he's THE parry class. Your only chance is GB and side heavy and that's kinda it because you'll never land a heavy and the stamina drain on feints is unreal. You don't think shove is more or less unusable against competitive players because it's way too easy for them to counter it?

Can't really comment on other classes, but as somebody who almost exclusively played Raider in both betas I can tell you quickattack speed is the least of his worries.

Drekle
02-20-2017, 09:23 PM
Valkyrie: Outside of lowering some recovery times, she's also very balanced. Fast and average damage with great range.

Have you played Valk? Her range is short...

darksavior1977
02-20-2017, 09:39 PM
For samurai, I think the Kensei and the Shugoki are in good spots, I think the Orochi needs his fast lights looked at, and in general dodging classes need to be looked at. There is a reason they dominate the meta. Nobushi may need looked at in that some of her attacks are ridiculously hard to block, otherwise, she seems more or less fine.

For knights PK is super fast and her dodge heavy is too much reward for little risk, otherwise she is fine. Lawbringer has lists of issues he needs addressed, not mentioned here are his pathetic parry counters, which is supposed to be a strength of his. Also the over the shoulder throw should do at least as much damage as Shugoki's baseball swing, and the impaling charge should hurt more and leave enemies on their backs. Warden is maybe perfect as he is, no change. Conqueror might could use a touch more damage, but not much else because otherwise he is a very good character.

Vikings all need a bit of help, except maybe the Warlord. He's actually really good, and if revenge mode is tuned down a touch, not op by being in it all the time in combat and having uninterruptible heavy strikes all the time. Raider needs some expanded defenses, he really suffers in a game where learning to parry heavies isn't hard. He can be used, but its not fun when the meta is about fast characters who focus on dodges and light attacks. Berserker may need feats looked at, as he can really up his damage with his rages, and he also has lightening fast multi-directional, very lengthy light combos that can be really difficult to block or parry. Valkyrie needs a light-> heavy, or heavy-> heavy combo added to her tools, otherwise, she has solid defenses. Her big shield bash followed by sweep, the sweep often misses because of how far the big shield bash pushes enemies.

In general gameplay stamina needs to be less restrictive about sending any hero into exhaustion as fast as it seems to imo, and conversely, revenge mode needs to be toned way down. As it stands, there are characters who nearly stay in revenge mode just against single opponents for a good portion of combat, and all the time against 2 or more. Its not really a "mode" if some heroes are in it 100% or close of the time. It also extends their lives for a long long time with the ever renewing shields. Beyond that I am curious to see if the next patch and its fix on GB countering shakes up the meta.

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 09:48 PM
I think that light attack chains are often a bot too fast.

Especially the samurai characters have some seriously fast light attacks. The hit recovery is not fast enough to get out of the light spam.

Nobushi and orochi are very strong right now.

The nobushi can poison you with an opener, gb you and feed you an upper heavy for almost 50 dmg - ouch. Fast light attacks, stein heavy attacks, great reach, poison and excellent exit options.
Orochi has his light attack spam and excellent dodge attacks. His kit is simple, deals great damage and it is hard to defend, once you are stuck in his spam.

Arkhos1988
02-20-2017, 09:53 PM
Honestely till guardbreak is fixed and the the throw is nerfed you can't realy say what needs a nerf or not.

Hackfraysn
02-20-2017, 09:55 PM
For samurai, I think the Kensei and the Shugoki are in good spots, I think the Orochi needs his fast lights looked at, and in general dodging classes need to be looked at. There is a reason they dominate the meta. Nobushi may need looked at in that some of her attacks are ridiculously hard to block, otherwise, she seems more or less fine.

For knights PK is super fast and her dodge heavy is too much reward for little risk, otherwise she is fine. Lawbringer has lists of issues he needs addressed, not mentioned here are his pathetic parry counters, which is supposed to be a strength of his. Also the over the shoulder throw should do at least as much damage as Shugoki's baseball swing, and the impaling charge should hurt more and leave enemies on their backs. Warden is maybe perfect as he is, no change. Conqueror might could use a touch more damage, but not much else because otherwise he is a very good character.

Vikings all need a bit of help, except maybe the Warlord. He's actually really good, and if revenge mode is tuned down a touch, not op by being in it all the time in combat and having uninterruptible heavy strikes all the time. Raider needs some expanded defenses, he really suffers in a game where learning to parry heavies isn't hard. He can be used, but its not fun when the meta is about fast characters who focus on dodges and light attacks. Berserker may need feats looked at, as he can really up his damage with his rages, and he also has lightening fast multi-directional, very lengthy light combos that can be really difficult to block or parry. Valkyrie needs a light-> heavy, or heavy-> heavy combo added to her tools, otherwise, she has solid defenses. Her big shield bash followed by sweep, the sweep often misses because of how far the big shield bash pushes enemies.

In general gameplay stamina needs to be less restrictive about sending any hero into exhaustion as fast as it seems to imo, and conversely, revenge mode needs to be toned way down. As it stands, there are characters who nearly stay in revenge mode just against single opponents for a good portion of combat, and all the time against 2 or more. Its not really a "mode" if some heroes are in it 100% or close of the time. It also extends their lives for a long long time with the ever renewing shields. Beyond that I am curious to see if the next patch and its fix on GB countering shakes up the meta.

Umm, I mentioned the Lawlbringer and what I feel are his current issues :-P

Stamina is fine. People need to manage that resource and honestly I like it the way it is. It's only a out of line in case of the Lawbringer's charge, when it can get you from full stamina to zero when you get blocked, which is ridiculously easy to do. This shouldn't be.

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 09:59 PM
Hostely till guardbreak is fixed and the the throw is nerfed you can't realy say what needs a nerf or not.

Fair point.

But the light attack speed of several characters is a bit too high.

KaoticUprising
02-20-2017, 10:00 PM
You said that the orochi is the only class that gets a free second light attack. That is not true. The warden also gets a free second light hit from the side. The orochi may be the only one from the top, but not the only class that can get a free 2 hits if the first connects.

If you think the orochi does too much damage, then you are not playing against them right. They have low health pools and are easily punished by parries and GBs. Also consider most other classes have an unblockable bash of some sort or an incredible throw. The warden for example has a shoulder bash combo that when you see it coming and dodge left/right, he can cancel and do a GB instead.

Scoregasms2286
02-20-2017, 10:02 PM
My only addon for Nobushi is to nerf her bleed damage also. She has great harass and apply bleeds in every combo just about, which also increases her damage when her target it bleeding. So if no 1 thinks the bleeds are the problem, then maybe lower the damage she gains from way of the shark?

I personally hate going against nobushi's, especially good ones. Most other classes I can handle with feint baiting and punishing them on their mistakes.

Maybe I should just git gud against Nobushi...but I do find her to be the most challenging opponent.

bulks88
02-20-2017, 10:06 PM
Great write-up and discussion on class balance! Thanks for taking the time to leave your comments, Arkenelric!

LOL the only time Ubi actually responds. 50 pages filled with annoyed customers discussing the countless flaws in the game that need to be fixed. No one even bothered to look at it. The one single thread in the last 50 pages mentioning some positives and a response. Selling this sht asap, let it be some other suckers problem. clearly you have no intention of releasing the game you promised

UbiJurassic
02-20-2017, 10:16 PM
I get the impression that you guys only respond to praise, not constructive criticism.

Do you really think Raider is in a good spot and his only current weakness is that his quickattacks are a tad too slow, as Arkenelric claims to be the case? You don't think he's lacking versatility (ironically as a class that's supposed to be versatile) because he has an utterly predictable opener, no chain where you can combine light and heavy attacks? And don't get me started on his laughable block-switch speed or his stamina drain on zone attack feints and the heavy attack speed that even a grandpa can go grab a cup of coffee, walk the dog, wait until his Viagra is working and be back just in time to parry Raider's heavy? Oh boy...I can tell you Raider's not very legendary outside of the campaign.

You don't think Lawbringer's ripostes are way too easy to parry, which is ridiculously ironic for the parry class to be the easiest class to parry in the game (actually ties with Raider)? You don't think it's bad when a defensive parry class with limited offensive capabilities and horribly slow attacks struggles with low guardswitch speed against Cheesekeeper quickattack spam? Seriously, parrying with LOLbringer feels quite unrewarding considering he's THE parry class. Your only chance is GB and side heavy and that's kinda it because you'll never land a heavy and the stamina drain on feints is unreal. You don't think shove is more or less unusable against competitive players because it's way too easy for them to counter it?

Can't really comment on other classes, but as somebody who almost exclusively played Raider in both betas I can tell you quickattack speed is the least of his worries.

We read and accept all forms of constructive critique regarding class balance in For Honor. We look to make changes based not only on game data, but on everyone's feedback as well. As a result, we've already started announcing gameplay changes (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1580891-Upcoming-Gameplay-Improvements). The more constructive conversation we can have to highlight the positives and negatives, the better.

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 10:17 PM
You said that the orochi is the only class that gets a free second light attack. That is not true. The warden also gets a free second light hit from the side. The orochi may be the only one from the top, but not the only class that can get a free 2 hits if the first connects.

If you think the orochi does too much damage, then you are not playing against them right. They have low health pools and are easily punished by parries and GBs. Also consider most other classes have an unblockable bash of some sort or an incredible throw. The warden for example has a shoulder bash combo that when you see it coming and dodge left/right, he can cancel and do a GB instead.

Hitting a 1 frame parry window to a light attack is pure luck. In addition, you can not parry, while being staggered by a hit. The hit recovery window and a successive light attack parry window overlap. Once you are staggered, you can not parry - only hope, that you guessed the over next attack right, to block it.

GB is also not possible atm, because you can not GB into a running attack.

Somedudesome
02-20-2017, 11:31 PM
In response to Thanapetus:

Warden: I'm not saying he's glaringly op, just some tweaking makes sense

Conq: As I stated, the shieldbash is a safe maneuver, you cannot punish it. Buffing this ability makes no sense.

PK: The idea behind doing solid bleed dmg is 2 fold. 1: It builds a TON of revenge meter and 2, It's not instant damage like guaranteed heavies so you can still fight back. Her biggest abusing move is easily her ZA since it's too fast and cannot be punished, even if you magically block it.

Lawbringer: Running charge is a pretty fast move, not sure if it needs to be unblockable. I do agree with some attack speed increase, probably to side-lights

Kensei: I just think a tiny speed increase to side-lights might be necessary.

Shugoki: I'm in agreement of a speed increase as well.

Orochi: Again, since the double top-light does nearly the same amount as his heavy, a bit of a dmg reduction makes sense.

KaoticUprising
02-20-2017, 11:44 PM
Hitting a 1 frame parry window to a light attack is pure luck. In addition, you can not parry, while being staggered by a hit. The hit recovery window and a successive light attack parry window overlap. Once you are staggered, you can not parry - only hope, that you guessed the over next attack right, to block it.

GB is also not possible atm, because you can not GB into a running attack.

I think you arent understanding the attack in question. If an orochi lands an overhead light attack he can get a free followup. If a warden lands a side light attack he can get a free followup. Your light parry unblockable attack is completely different than whats being discussed. However, this still confirms that the orochi is not the only character with this ability.

KaoticUprising
02-20-2017, 11:46 PM
In response to Thanapetus:

Warden: I'm not saying he's glaringly op, just some tweaking makes sense

Conq: As I stated, the shieldbash is a safe maneuver, you cannot punish it. Buffing this ability makes no sense.

PK: The idea behind doing solid bleed dmg is 2 fold. 1: It builds a TON of revenge meter and 2, It's not instant damage like guaranteed heavies so you can still fight back. Her biggest abusing move is easily her ZA since it's too fast and cannot be punished, even if you magically block it.

Lawbringer: Running charge is a pretty fast move, not sure if it needs to be unblockable. I do agree with some attack speed increase, probably to side-lights

Kensei: I just think a tiny speed increase to side-lights might be necessary.

Shugoki: I'm in agreement of a speed increase as well.

Orochi: Again, since the double top-light does nearly the same amount as his heavy, a bit of a dmg reduction makes sense.

Go to bot practice lvl 0 with an orochi. Do a heavy and then do the double light attack. The light double is nowhere near the damage of a heavy.

Funeragon
02-21-2017, 12:16 AM
Go to bot practice lvl 0 with an orochi. Do a heavy and then do the double light attack. The light double is nowhere near the damage of a heavy.

Double light = 32 damages.
Heavy top = 35 damages.

I don't ask for nerf the orochi since others char has strengh that orochi hasn't.
Btw, the aoe attack from warlod (as fast as a light side attack of Orochi) does 25 damage.

KaoticUprising
02-21-2017, 12:41 AM
Double light = 32 damages.
Heavy top = 35 damages.

I don't ask for nerf the orochi since others char has strengh that orochi hasn't.
Btw, the aoe attack from warlod (as fast as a light side attack of Orochi) does 25 damage.

You may be right on that one.. went to bot 0 and 1 and its pretty strong, but i also am specced for attack. However, i guess this is where the defense stat comes in to play. There a lot of times it seems like it does nothing. That could just be a player with maxed Defense.

Are you on PC ? We console players cant set up bot practice to be specific characters or anything and we cant see numbers. Unless im missing something here.

BiZkiT_Walwin
02-21-2017, 01:09 AM
Out of my view as a Warden

Orochi: I've never had any real problems with killing those guys to be honest, unless they are really good and just dodge all my hits and do their powerfull unbreakable or even feint to bait me for a heavy attack and then just do their charge, nothing stupidly unbalanced to find here though.

Nobushi: I've got to agree with you, as the Nobushi is seems to be balanced on the first look in terms of attacks, stats and combos and stuff it is a bit too easy to play and kill good players with it in my opinion. Unless the map is an actual cave people will have a veeery hard time even getting close to this hero. Parrying is useless as you can't follow it with anything because the Nobushi will be out of your reach. While trying to get close to her you will be punished for not landing a single block by a lot of bleeding damage even from the light attacks and this girl is spamming like hell. Then she's got this kick and that one often gets people into a vicious circle as you can't really do anything if you haven't dodged it. Maybe some attack speed reduction and less bleed damage.

Peacekeeper: Fine as it is imo, the grab is still annoying but can be dodged, it is only hard to parry her hits as you never know wether she's gonna go for a heavy or light attack and you'll have to adjust the moment of starting the parry.

Conqueror: Don't know what it's like fighting this guy as different characters but as Warden and Raider this guy is just madness at its finest. Due to being so slow his hits are often hard to parry and thats what those characters rely on basically. He seems to be able to change his attack direction very shortly before he launches the actually attack what makes it even harder. Once he corners you and knows what hes doing you're basically lost as he can just spam this shield bash and will always have at least one hit in. It seems to take your stamina as well and I had many situations just trying to get out of that circle by spamming my Space key and move to the sides but it simply doesn't work, at least not as a Warden. Had very low level Conquerors destryoing me as I can't seem to get any hits on them what makes it really frustrating.

Lawbringer: I would suggest to either leave this guy at his current stance or maybe even give him a little buff as high level players really seem to be lacking ways on this character to properly take out their enemies in 1v1's. He can of course disable his enemies and lift them up but can never really go on with a rewarding combo as he always runs out of stamina.

Warden: Playing this one as my main, still trying to not be too biased. I use to say that he's easy to play but hard to master. Many people complain about his vortex but the shoulderbreaker is really easy to dodge compared to the headbutt of Warlord or the Shieldbash of Conqueror . The character relies on parrying at least in the way that I - half decently - play him and that requires some sort of skill at least. The zone attack is fast of course but doesn't deal humongus damage and is predictable as it's coming from the same direction all the time. Crushing counterstrike is really strong of course but probably the most difficult to perform and most unrelieable attack in the game, hence barely used. Warden is balanced in my opinion, I can understand why people could think that he's too strong but those guys should really give him a try and see what it's like playing a Warden themselves.

Geric0nqueror
02-21-2017, 01:16 AM
In response to Thanapetus:

Conq: As I stated, the shieldbash is a safe maneuver, you cannot punish it. Buffing this ability makes no sense.
.

Excuse me, but I think you are wrong on this one. You can punish the shield bash when you just use any kind of attack, and then it gets interrupted.

Honestly, I'm a little bit (very much) frustrated when playing this class. You know, Conq is my main and I like his/her style, but I cannot handle any player who knows a little bit about blocking and dodging. The conq is too slow, makes in general less damage than all other classes. His "hard hitting" full charged heavy attack is predictable as any Disney movie, drains away stamina and is also very slow like everything else with the Conq.

I don't know why I can do so many shieldbashes when they are also so predictable and easily dodgeable. And when they hit I either cannot reach my opponent in time to let him taste my flail or they fall down into the abyss, which is not very satisfying and in most cases way too cheesy.

Warlords on the other hand are just beasts, defense is basically attack and otherwise, he makes good damage, has uninterruptible attacks and a way more cheesy "shieldbash" by ramming you off the ledge, or ramming you against a wall and start hitting on you. The defense, the attack, the speed and his reach are just insane.

Ironically the advanced tutorial video for the conq states that his full block stance is a good way to defense an area and to wait for allies. Yeah, fine in dominion and sometimes in elimination then. But in 1v1 or 2v2? Seriously, useless. It just drains your stamina, you are extremely vulnerable against guard breaks (which is an issue for itself, I know) and your shieldbash option, again, is in most cases laughable.

And now to mindgames: Even for mindgames he is too slow :D He cannot feint, he cannot really surprise, he is like a stranded whale which sometimes can actually hit something with his fluke by sheer luck. He is only there to push somebody back (which doesn't make any damage outside of Elimination and Dominion) and shouting "leave me alone!". Yeah, pretty nice setup in duels...

But hey, he looks cool xD and his emote is really funny too ;)

Rump_Buffalo
02-21-2017, 01:59 AM
making it so that every GB is techable no matter what, and parrying only giving enough time for a light attack would go a long way towards balance.

Heavy attacks off parries are just insane to me. SO much value for very little effort

xW11nD
02-21-2017, 02:40 AM
Peacekeeper: Fine as it is imo, the grab is still annoying but can be dodged, it is only hard to parry her hits as you never know wether she's gonna go for a heavy or light attack and you'll have to adjust the moment of starting the parry..

Hmm I think that her atk speed should either be lowered a tad or her zone be tweaked a little. Anything else is fine as it in imo.

InstalockHanzo
02-21-2017, 02:44 AM
lmaooooo a PK main saying the game is well balanced. Actually funny.

RaidoKnight
02-21-2017, 02:55 AM
Conqueror: Excellent defense with a tad bit below-average damage output. This classes Shield bash is completely safe when playing against someone who's experienced. It's literally impossible to punish but is relatively fair since it doesn't have insane speed nor can it be cancelled into a guard-break. Not sure what should be done with this outside of having some sort of counter to it so you can punish a whiffed Shield bash. Also, this is something I've tested but the Conqueror is the only class that you cannot get a guaranteed heavy off of a light parry, his recovery time is shorter than the other classes(This from a PK's heavies).
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Increase shield bash recovering speed but give him the ability to land a heavy after a light parry
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Peacekeeper: remove the ability to cancel the second half of it.
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Oh god no! That would be a 100% free parry for your enemy even if he gets hit by the first one. The zone attack would become the worst move in the game.
1,5bar from 2bars bleed dmg are a good change tho, isn't it already like that? (besides the bug).
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Orochi: Fast, excellent damage. This guy is solid. Now some may hate me for saying this but I feel there needs to be at least 1, maybe 2 changes implemented to this class. First off, like the other Zone attacks mentioned, it most likely needs to be slowed down. Fast Zone attacks shouldn't be your best form of poke-damage. Secondly, and this one i'm not 100% sure on, look at their ability to get a guaranteed 2nd light off of the first one from the top. This combo does as much as a heavy while being MUCH faster. No other class in this game gets a guaranteed 2nd light with such speed(I know the warden can get it with his sides but it's much slower and you have to actually time the 2nd hit).
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Fast zone attacks are ok as long as they don't have super high range ( I look at you Warden), let PK and Orochi zone attack alone, I mean they cost 50% stamina and it's not that they are unblockable. I agree with you 100% with everything else, his damage is kinda over the top.
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Nobushi: This is going to sound hilarious but I actually find her to be quite balanced. Granted she has excellent damage, range and speed. Idea's would be greatly appreciated.
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Her damage buff after she bleeds an enemy is way too high imo.Everything else is fine.
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Warlord: Even after the nerfs, this guy is still strong, just not head-over-heels above everyone else. His headbutt is still incredibly quick but much more fair. Again, this one is tough so I am not sure what to change on him.
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The headbutt is still to good, it is like the Conqueror's shield bash, just much faster. It should need some charge time like shoulder bash.
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Berserker: Outside of the bug that allows a Guardbreak from blocking a light, this one feels very balanced.
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100% agree (my main)
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Valkyrie: Outside of lowering some recovery times, she's also very balanced. Fast and average damage with great range.
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She is underrated, I'm kinda scared when she gets her buffs. Instead of increasing her already solid attack speed, she should just get some slightly dmg increase in her lights imo.
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I agree with you for all the other characters 100%.
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lmaooooo a PK main saying the game is well balanced. Actually funny.
git gud, PK is far away from OP and is totally bugged at the moment, and you are still crying?
How bad are you at this game to think PK is too strong?

No I'm not a PK mainer, I just defend the characters that are not even OP in the slightest.
The only character that is too strong at the moment is the Warden, I bet you don't even understand why.
At least Ubisoft has solid devs that know how to play the game, that is why they don`t listen to you cry babies.

THANK YOU UBISOFT ! <3

Imp-C-Bravo
02-21-2017, 03:04 AM
Hi guys, just wanted to give some of my own feedback on how things are going as a Rep 3 PK. First off, I want to say how awesome the balance currently is in comparison to other multiplayer-competitive games I've played so kudos to you guys/gals at Ubisoft. However, it's impossible to perfectly balance any game and even one such as this could always use tweaks. Here's a list of changes i'd like to be considered.

Knights

Warden: Arguably one of the strongest classes mostly due to having a lack of weaknesses. You can't contest the top due to crushing counter, has solid range and decent damage with average movement speed. As it stands, one of the most glaring issue's I see is the ability to cancel Shoulderbash into a GB. Recently, Warlord was able to do the samething with Headbutt but that got removed. I feel like the same change should happen here. One other move i'd like to see looked at is the Zone Attack, currently it has great speed with amazing reach. However, if blocked, you get a guaranteed Guard-break. I don't find this move particularly too strong but I do believe one of two things could be changed here. 1: Either slow it down slightly or two: Fix the indicator's popping from 1 direction to another, this seems to trip up a lot of people.

Conqueror: Excellent defense with a tad bit below-average damage output. This classes Shield bash is completely safe when playing against someone who's experienced. It's literally impossible to punish but is relatively fair since it doesn't have insane speed nor can it be cancelled into a guard-break. Not sure what should be done with this outside of having some sort of counter to it so you can punish a whiffed Shield bash. Also, this is something I've tested but the Conqueror is the only class that you cannot get a guaranteed heavy off of a light parry, his recovery time is shorter than the other classes(This from a PK's heavies).

Peacekeeper: Very short range with fast attacks and an even faster Zone attack, probably the fastest in the game. As a PK main, outside of the problematic bleeds that can be very punishing, my main concern is how fast the Zone attack is. I'd like to see 2 nerfs to her. One: Reduce the bleed damage on GB from 2 bars to 1 1/2, and either slow down her ZA so it can be reacted to OR remove the ability to cancel the second half of it.

Lawbringer: Solid health with less than average in-combat mobility. I'd like to see his side-lights sped up a little. His top-light has good speed so we can leave it at that. Not sure what else we could do with the big guy.


Samurai

Kensei: This guy feels relatively balanced even if he has the strongest lights in the game from the recent patch. Not sure what we could change with this one. Maybe speed on his side lights a tad.

Shugoki: Outside of the bugs related to his unblockable triggering hitting twice and not being able to be parried, there's only 1 change i'd like to see to this fella. His out-of-combat sprint that guarantee's a heavy on Knock down is a bit too strong. All I've been seeing is Goki's running around out of combat and either sprinting for a KD or cancelling into either a heavy/gb. I feel there needs to be a bit more of a startup to this ability.

Orochi: Fast, excellent damage. This guy is solid. Now some may hate me for saying this but I feel there needs to be at least 1, maybe 2 changes implemented to this class. First off, like the other Zone attacks mentioned, it most likely needs to be slowed down. Fast Zone attacks shouldn't be your best form of poke-damage. Secondly, and this one i'm not 100% sure on, look at their ability to get a guaranteed 2nd light off of the first one from the top. This combo does as much as a heavy while being MUCH faster. No other class in this game gets a guaranteed 2nd light with such speed(I know the warden can get it with his sides but it's much slower and you have to actually time the 2nd hit).

Nobushi: This is going to sound hilarious but I actually find her to be quite balanced. Granted she has excellent damage, range and speed. Idea's would be greatly appreciated.

Vikings

Raider: Good out-of-combat speed, solid damage. I feels the only real change this guy needs is slightly faster lights, something as an opener like other classes have.

Warlord: Even after the nerfs, this guy is still strong, just not head-over-heels above everyone else. His headbutt is still incredibly quick but much more fair. Again, this one is tough so I am not sure what to change on him.

Berserker: Outside of the bug that allows a Guardbreak from blocking a light, this one feels very balanced.

Valkyrie: Outside of lowering some recovery times, she's also very balanced. Fast and average damage with great range.


Closing comments

Like I said, this game feels VERY balanced as is outside of a few notable changes. Obviously these suggestions/comments are just my opinion and others may present a better argument. I hope we can have that discussion here, thank you.

In response:

Warden: Agreed as far as the zone attack indicators. And while I HATE the shoulder charge cancel GB, you can tech the Shoulder GB (the timing of which is about to become easier in the next patch)so I don't feel that needs to be removed just yet.

Conqueror: No comment about the class' inherent kit, however, as for your comment about not being able to punish him with a heavy after a light parry -- I don't think that's a Conqueror thing -- I think that's a PK thing -- I do believe some other classes can land it.

Peacekeeper: I want to preface this with the utmost apologies as I am about to say something not nice. You claim to be a PK main -- considering your assessment, I am skeptical. I agree with your assessment of the zone attack. It does not need to be fast at all. However, you did not mention her weaknesses relative to the other assassins, inferior dodge. You mentioned bleed as being punishing however neglected to mention that, including bleed, she only does slightly more damage than the other assassins when it has all ticked down. For example, an Orochi will do 90% percent as much damage...instantly and without need to wait. You also completely ignored mentioning that her sidesteps/step back are inferior to the other assassins'.

Lawbringer: Lacks defensive speed. He needs to have a faster stance switch for better blocking/parrying. Being able to choose which side the charge impale comes from (instead of it always being his right -- or the opponent's left) by way of it coming in from the last stance he was in before beginning his run would do wonders for his offensive abilities. No comment on the side lights - haven't played with him enough to say anything fair about your opinion on it.

Kensei: Has near assassin speed with his lights and assassin speed on his heavies. Has more feint options than anyone other class. Excellent range -- and an assassin like sidestep. If anything - he is the strongest of the Vanguards.

Shugoki:I think the meta is too young to make changes to Shugoki. He takes a vastly different approach to attack (or attack with) than the other heavies - and I think that is a good thing inherently. Let people spend more time playing him or playing against him before deciding if he needs tweeks.

Orochi: Mostly agreed with one major caveat. His sidestep attack steps forward way too much. One can dodge backwards and still get hit from him if he sidesteps left or right.

Raider: No comment as I have not played him enough to make a fair agreement or disagreement.

Warlord: No comment as I have not played him enough to make a fair agreement or disagreement.

Berserker: Berserker is also one of the better assassins. Along with having one of the two good sidestep attacks, his passive for uninterruptible chains make him one of, if not the, best character for fighting multiple thanks to how powerful revenge focused builds are.

Gubermensch
02-21-2017, 03:11 AM
**Revised, after some more thought

Very intelligent write-up OP, refreshing. I second the notion that Ubi has done a great job with this game. It has huge potential and is a blast to play. I hope dueling goes esport and that balance is made around the very high end of dueling skill, not to make everyone happy. My thoughts...

[B]Warden: make a whiffed shoulder barge more punishable, or remove shoulder barge cancel to gb option. Keep zone attack as is, penalty for blocking it balances it well. (Inevitably a noob crusher)

**Conqueror: 1 dimensional hero, weak, boring (without using unpunishable shield bash). Shield bash needs to be punishable. After sb change, heavies, lights and light combo should be made faster, make shield bash riposte faster with a high risk/reward. Remove all-block, or significantly raise stam startup consumption.

Peacekeeper: Reduce bleed from 3 stab gb 33%. (Inevitably a noob crusher)

**Lawbringer: Very predictable class. All lights out of shove mixup should be sped up 33%. Speed up normal side lights. Speed up the long arm.

**Kensai: forced to turtle and startup punish with overhead light. Makes for a boring fight. Speed up side lights. Make dodge attack late cancel-able.

**Shugoki: remove heal, reduce radius of running knockdown

Orochi: balanced

Nobushi: balanced

Raider: add cancel-able dodge heavy (similar to dodge light stun) at speed of side light, that does light damage, with no stun effect, make side lights slightly faster.

**Warlord: increase stamina usage of headbutt, 2 max; remove all-block all-together (or significantly raise all-block stam startup consumption), have attacks that currently chain with all-block chain to any guard direction.

Berserker: balanced after bug fix

Valkyrie: needs review after update

Somedudesome
02-21-2017, 03:45 AM
Just to clarify because some may not understand, the shield bash on Conqueror is completely safe against any attack/guard break. I'm not making this up. You can't side-attack it, nor can you guard break it.

Edit: Also, i'm fairly certain the guard-switching speed is bugged for those classes who are slower.

Edit 2: @imp, I did mention why I thought her bleeds should be as strong as they are due to it being a damage-over-time ability and not instant.

KillerMDH
02-21-2017, 05:38 AM
I think its important for each class to have some sort of method of poke damage that is hard to avoid because of its quick execution, otherwise the opponent you're facing, if hes good, will have a better chance at beating you if they just wait for you to make a move that can be parried.

Take Warden for example, he has a fast zone attack that always comes from the same side guard and a fast top light, this means you can rest your guard to cover one area potentially made vulnerable and now you only have to worry about one other guard if you're only considering where the fastest potential swings will come from.

^^This is a good thing, if everyone's offense was nothing more than slow telegraphed attacks then the defense this game offers which is already superior to offense, would end up being the demise of this game. Every class needs tools which prevent the 100% defensive play style, I'm completely fine with the game remaining heavily defense favored, but god forbid we don't end up in a meta where its best to just sit and wait until one person gets bored enough to swing and then be punished for doing so.

Now I'm no pro, maybe some of your suggestions are relevant OP but you don't want this game to become completely reaction based, and with what you're wanting toned down in general that sounds like what would happen. It would destroy any hopes of a pro scene developing, the game would become far too easy, after spending a hot minute playing this game you'd realize that there is no reason to swing and that you may as well just sit there and wait for your opponent to do something you can punish. In 1v1 depending on the match up this unfortunately already seems to be the case.

Go ahead and remove the ultra fast unblockable spam BS in this game, but let everyone have a couple fast light attacks that just poke for decent damage so we don't end up in a pure turtle meta.

Gubermensch
02-21-2017, 05:40 AM
I notice a big difference in perspective based on the preferred game mode....

The game should be balanced around duels, not 4v4.

Gubermensch
02-21-2017, 06:01 AM
I'm enjoying reading the thoughts on hero changes. Keep them coming guise. Use the same format OP did...

DukeVonSausage
02-21-2017, 06:14 AM
Great write-up and discussion on class balance! Thanks for taking the time to leave your comments, Arkenelric!

Hope you take that first response with a grain of salt; because the JP lineup is ridiculously easy to play, and easy to be successful with even at high levels of play.

The OP clearly has a JP bias, it really does show.

Imp-C-Bravo
02-21-2017, 06:30 AM
Edit 2: @imp, I did mention why I thought her bleeds should be as strong as they are due to it being a damage-over-time ability and not instant.

That may be the case as I am, like most others, unable to read through the entire thread at once and can only respond to your OP. However, in the OP you advocate reducing the PK bleed -- then in the sentence I have quoted above stated that you think they should be as strong as they are. That is a pretty glaring contradiction.

And the difference in sidesteps is still unmentioned and not listed in your discussion on Orochi and the berserker.

Still, I liked a lot of the whole deal.

Somedudesome
02-21-2017, 06:42 AM
My apologies Imp, Let me clarify. I still defend the strength of bleeds due to the reasons listed but I wouldn't be completely against making them on par or SLIGHTLY stronger than heavies. Right now they deal 50 damage and most heavies are averaging around 35-40, some even around 30 depending on the class.

edit: Let me reread what you're on about in terms of the sidesteps

agentpoop
02-21-2017, 07:24 AM
Nobushi - I think the Nobushi has one combo in particular that needs a vital tweek, it comes after she does her unblockable kick she can do a stab that causes bleeding nearly immediately after. What is wrong with this move is that a bleed move is not supposed to be unblockable (save for the Valkyrie's counter bleed or the Peacemakers stabs) however this move functions as an unblockable move. I have fought countless Nobushi's that exploit this and it can be game breaking at times. I've used heavy defensive characters like the conquerer , Valkyrie and Lawbringer to try and counter this thinking they either have strong defense or a shield. However, the attack still cannot be blocked even when I see it coming a mile away and am moving to block it as fast as possible. Either this move shouldn't bleed or should be slower to allow a potential block.

Hackfraysn
02-21-2017, 07:35 AM
We read and accept all forms of constructive critique regarding class balance in For Honor. We look to make changes based not only on game data, but on everyone's feedback as well. As a result, we've already started announcing gameplay changes (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1580891-Upcoming-Gameplay-Improvements). The more constructive conversation we can have to highlight the positives and negatives, the better.

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.

Well, are there any plans to make Raider legendary again? I haven't heard anything so far and there's nothing in the patchnotes, no comment on that either. He's been in that sorry state since the betas and that really needs to change. It's well known that he's struggling against skilled opponents due to his predictability, severe lack of versatility (and options) and overall sluggishness. Out of all vanguards he's by far the worst and that's a shame since he's quite a cool character with a lot of potential...to be legendary ;-)

Some suggestions would be to give him more openers and a mix-up chain with heavy and light attacks. I'd also focus more on his "dirty fighting" and crowd control because that's what's unique about him compared to the other vanguards. Give him a knockdown (come on, the shape of his axe is perfectly made to pull somebody's leg away) or some wrestling moves, or a kick to the balls that also drains stamina in addition to damage. I'd love to see him build around stamina management and manipulation - he should get several (dirty) tools to drain his opponents' stamina, and something he can do when they're fatigued, but maybe that would make him too complex for a vanguard class.

Or how about upping his attack speed and reducing his stamina costs with subsequent attacks (and feints), especially on the heavies? That'd fit his character perfectly and you guys did a great job on the creative design behind all the classes. I'm pretty sure you can come up with something cool for Raider and see, how to make it work.

Do you have any data on how much Raider got played compared to other classes? I ran a check list and counted what I've encountered most in dominion/brawl and found him to be very underrepresented outside the beginner tier brackets, which is not a good sign. The results arent statistically representative of course, but they nevertheless confirm exactly what people feel like is wrong with him: He's a noobstomper and insanely difficult to play at competitive level.

As for Lawbringer, I'm no pro by any means but if I were you, I'd look into making parrying more rewarding. Currently all he has (that is unique to him) is either the charge or the overhead unblockable. Both are easily parried, which shouldn't be the case. Personally, I'd up his overall attackspeed after a parry for a brief period of time or his next attack so the parry-class doesn't get parried himself that easy.

The side light attacks are almost as slow as an assassin's heavy. It's not as bad on Lawbringer, since he has some other (albeit limited) options, but nevertheless this is not a good state to be in. Also his overall range is quite a joke, considering he's wielding a polearm.

What's your take on the slow guardswitch speed on Raider and Lawbringer that is less than 1/3rd of any other (assassin) class? Peacekeeper light attack spam can be quite devastating, given your chosen internet infrastructure and the sluggish guardswitch speed. I'd love to hear the reason why you guys designed it that way because to me it doesn't make much sense, especially not on the Lawbringer.

An official statement on Raider would mean a lot to us.

Again, thanks for your reply.

agentpoop
02-21-2017, 07:57 AM
Agreed on what you said with Nobushi , if the bleed has to stay at least lower it's effect a bit.

I actually like the Orochi right now, maybe a slight damage reduction wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but his sidestepping makes him who he is.

Shugoki does swing a little quick for my liking with his light attacks when compared to the Lawbringer who should have comparable speeds. The LB does have a quick over head light attack but his other ones are painfully slow. Which given what he is wearing and using isn't terribly impossible, but the Shugoki's weapon shouldn't be that much different.

Vayrian
02-21-2017, 08:49 AM
Pretty much this.


Warden: make a whiffed shoulder barge punishable, or remove shoulder barge cancel to gb option. Keep zone attack as is, penalty for blocking it balances it well. (Inevitably a noob crusher)

Conqueror: 1 dimensional hero, weak, boring. Nonpunishable shield bash needs to be punishable. Heavies, lights and light combo should be made much faster, make shield bash riposte faster with a high risk/reward.

Peacekeeper: Reduce bleed from 3 stab gb 33%. (Inevitably a noob crusher)

Lawbringer: Very predictable class. All lights out of shove mixup should be sped up 33%. Speed up normal side lights.

Kensai: forced to turtle and startup punish with overhead light. Makes for a boring fight. Speed up side lights or make dodge attack cancel-able.

Shugoki: remove heal (Inevitably a noob crusher)

Orochi: balanced (Inevitably a noob crusher)

Nobushi: balanced

Raider: add cancelable dodge heavy (similar to dodge light stun) at speed of side light, that does light damage, with no stun effect, make side lights slightly faster.

Warlord: increase stamina usage of headbutt, 2 max

Berserker: balanced after bug fix

Valkyrie: needs review after update

Very good job, man. I'm not sure what has to be done with the Raider, but he definitely needs a buff. He is too predictable at high level play.

Oh, and nerf the warden to the ground.

Knight_Raime
02-21-2017, 09:51 AM
warden- vortex is the only thing that needs a change. the double indicator is likely a bug and could be fixed. But her zone is fine. it's basically meaningless damage that costs a lot to perform.

conq- i'm pretty sure he gets side heavies like the lawbringer does. I'm not sure he needs any kind of adjustment.

pk- She needs her full bleed damage. Most of her damage comes from bleed period. her zone attack comes from the same direction as the wardens. and feinting it (which is basically mandatory) eats a lot of stamina. it's balanced.

Lawbringer- he needs more confirmable moves. None of his parry moves are guarenteed. and long arm isn't either.

Kensei needs some way to open up people. he has no method currently. he entirely relies on really predictable and slow attacks.

Shugoki- that eats up a lot of stamina. and he needs a running start. if he's too close to the person he's trying to do that on even if you make full contact it won't knock them down. His bugs need fixing

Orochi- he's only got uppers going for him. You need to learn to predict. zone attack like the wardens is a lot of stamina for little damage.

warlord- headbutt just needs to cost more stamina.

Oh and everyone should be able to swap guard stances fast. that will make everything feel better.

WheepingSong
02-21-2017, 09:59 AM
Brilliant thread, thanks for that!

Heres my two cents in regards to class balance. On a side note, I main Warden, Valk and Warlord

Knights:

Warden: Tough class to play against. As one of my mains I feel this class is actually at the very top of the food chain. It's shoulder charge into GB is way to much in my opinion as the vortex is basically non predictable and uncounterable. Once i get the combo off either shoulder charge into GB or shoulder charge into 2 lights there is no chance for the enemy to punish it, and I feel that every combo/ability should be punishable. Also Wardens ZA is way to fast. And to all the people saying that lowering it's speed will kill the ability, well how come theres ZA on heros like the valk where it is so much slower and easier to block. Also, all ZA's from all heros come from the same direction, so not really an arugment there.

Conquerer: Seems mostly fine to me their base revenge gain might have to be tuned down a bit though. Also what I encountered as very distrubing was that they can 100 - 0 someone while in revenge mode as the shield bash knocks down continously. And there is no time frame after the knockdown to dodge the second shield bash which knocks you down as well. This can be repeated up to 5 times in which the opponent is dead already. Only doable while in revenge mode though. Other than that I think it's well rounded and a great addition to the game in generall.

Peacekeeper: The bleed damage from the 3 stabs might have to be tuned down a bit, other than that she feels right to me. Also, very good class design. Speed and generall combos are strong and seem to be balanced.

Lawbringer: Have not really gone to deep into gameplay with him. However i feel that people are rather struggling. Personally I have not come across a Lawbringer who has had the ability to kill me. Therefore, cannot really comment on this one but i think he need some looking into.

Vikings

Warlord: As one of my mains I feel he is in a good spot right now. No tweaks necessary though. As other people already mentioned, maybe lower the speed of headbutt a bit. But if you think of it, you can't really follow up with anything else but a light attack which really doesn't deal a chunk of damage. Other than that I can just say its a very fun and satisfying class to play.

Raider: Definitley needs some looking into. I cannot really say what exactly needs to be looked at, but I feel the speed of his lights are slow and he lacks a bit of a combo variety. Good in 4v4 but underpowered in 1v1 compared to other classes.

Berserker: Balanced and a cool class to play against. Well rounded and unique in it's play style. Bug's are not part of balance discussions

Valkyrie: Right now a little to weak. Needs to be looked at after the patch. Again as one of my mains i do feel the patch is needed, I just hope it wont be too strong after all. However, very fun class to play with lots of variety and nice counters. The Shoulder Pin is nice and comes in handy with her lower light/heavy attach damage. However, I feel it's really hard to pull off the shield counter on side attacks. This might need some tweaking. How do you guys feel about it?

Samurai:

Kensei: Well balanced and a perfect vanguard class for the Samurai. It looks cool and feels good to play. Good Job Ubisoft.

Nobushi: Well balanced as well. The only thing I come across are Gear lvl 100 players with loads of attack damage where 2-3 bleeds kill you off. This however is part of the game and gear progression system.

Orochi: Has been top tier since alpha. Current meta is showing that her light attacks are way to fast to react to. A light attack with another unblockable light attack should not do the damage of a heavy. Especially not on a hero with that amount of versatility and movement speed. Orochis ZA needs to be looked into the same way as the Wardens ZA, it's way to fast and deals to much damage for how easy it is to pull off. Combine the fast paced movement with the incredibly hard hitting light's and ZA and Orochi seems very hard to beat. It's right at the top of the food chain next to the Warden.

Shugoki: For the most part, it seems quite balanced to me. People complaining about one shots should play him for a while at high level. As demons embrace is slow and easily dodgable, cecovery time after is awefully long. It's designed to be a high risk high reward charakter and I think Ubi did a good job at it's uniqueness. Again, bugs are no part of balance discussions.

PlagueGripes
02-21-2017, 10:40 AM
We read and accept all forms of constructive critique regarding class balance in For Honor. We look to make changes based not only on game data, but on everyone's feedback as well. As a result, we've already started announcing gameplay changes (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1580891-Upcoming-Gameplay-Improvements). The more constructive conversation we can have to highlight the positives and negatives, the better.

I find some irony in his post being mainly about Lawbringer (considered the worst character in the game, by a large margin), yet the gameplay changes link you provided doesn't even mention the class, at all.

Funeragon
02-21-2017, 11:56 AM
Nerf Orochi's attack speed and he will never attack. NEVER. he'll just wait for parry or deflect.


You may be right on that one.. went to bot 0 and 1 and its pretty strong, but i also am specced for attack. However, i guess this is where the defense stat comes in to play. There a lot of times it seems like it does nothing. That could just be a player with maxed Defense.

Are you on PC ? We console players cant set up bot practice to be specific characters or anything and we cant see numbers. Unless im missing something here.

You can find this on internet, There is a thread on the forum and on reddit. Including the damage of every char
Here's the doc : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

Hackfraysn
02-21-2017, 01:36 PM
I find some irony in his post being mainly about Lawbringer (considered the worst character in the game, by a large margin), yet the gameplay changes link you provided doesn't even mention the class, at all.

Lawbringer isn't bad. Neither is Raider. Both are actually playable at higher levels but both characters and Raider in particular will make you work way harder for your victories, than any other character in the game. This basically confirms that while the roster is kinda balanced, some characters are far superior to others (and therefore will probaly never see competitive play), which shouldn't be the case.

Lolbringer's issue lies in the irony that the parry-class itself is the easiest to parry. Why should I pick a Lawbringer, when all I can do after a successful parry is a GB or light attack? I could pick any character for that and some are even better at that. Kensei comes to mind here with his high damage light attacks and dash GB. Parrying should feel rewarding when playing the Lawbringer, which currently just isn't the case. That and the lame attackspeed and guardswitch that he shares with Raider are his only issues.

And no character should have 1/3rd slower guardswitch speed than fast characters, especially not a defensive one.

Somedudesome
02-21-2017, 05:50 PM
Like @Hackfraysn mentioned and I agree, those classes( and others) can be made viable, just you have to work a bit harder for it. It's why some slight tweaks would certainly help. At the end of the day, i'm hoping further(and current) discussion is backed by sound argument and/or facts, preferably video proof if possible.

Again, just to reiterate as a PK main, if my class needs justifiable nerfs to bring it in-line in some area's i'm missing, i'm COMPLETELY for it. As should everyone else here with their respective mains.

Dingle_Joe
02-21-2017, 09:41 PM
In my opinion I think warlord, Berserker, Valk, kensai, orochi, and shugoki(after his bug gets fixed) are all fine. I think raider and lawbringer need some big buffs, lawbringer needs more guaranteed things and raider just needs versatility and less stamina costs. Conq I think should get some more things in general and I think he needs to get a little rework because right now he's basically braindead and has 1 playstyle in 1v1s.

Then there's the 3 classes.

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper hits way too fast and her dodging and ability to just out space people with solid range and her dodging is just too strong. Her guardbreak I could live with, but right now most of her attacks come out to fast, not to mention you actually just can't play shugoki vs her because she instantly breaks his armor with heavy attack into light attack and she can just react to everything he has.

Nobushi
Seriously this class is just insane and whoever thinks this is perfectly fine needs help. She does the most damage in the game, is the safest in the game, and has some of the best cheese in the game. She would seriously still be a solid character without poison and with poison she does more damage than everyone. Then when even if you parry her you still can't get anything off of it because she has too much range and she half hits with from a light attack into combo, this character is just nuts. Her low health and "high" stamina cost (which is lower than lawbringer, conq, shugoki, and raider) and she just needs heavy nerfs.

Warden
I mean most people have said about his 50/50 being slowed down or changed and it honestly should be. It's resettable and just a braindead 50/50 that isn't reactable, it's just insane. Then he has his top light and zone attack which both come out way too fast and you have a character that can just hit you with only 50/50's until you're dead and it's just not fun

I'm not going to play any more for honor after my 75 hours until those 3 characters get nerfed, it's just no fun to play vs them and it really shouldn't be in the game how they are now. Not to mention those 3 characters are also some of the most played, which shouldn't be suprising, people just love spamming overpowered garbage.

Smeson
02-21-2017, 10:16 PM
Id say the only classes that needs a look at is shugoki. He has way to strong attacks that is way to easy to do. I got 1 shotted by his grab when he had low health and I full. 1 shotted... Shouldnt be an ability like that so easy to do. PK have some weird quick attacks that dosent funtion properly at a p2p server, some ppl cant block in time.

Overall the samuraj heroes are the easiest to play and the strongest due to fast attacks and people reacting to them is harder for obvious reasons. The "hard" on Orochi is alittle silly.

Somedudesome
02-22-2017, 02:37 AM
Recently updated the OP to include a different approach to the Warden's Vortex. Either give it the Warlord Headbutt treatment OR shorten the window to cancel. I feel as if it's window is a bit long.

UbiJurassic
02-22-2017, 03:21 AM
Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.

Well, are there any plans to make Raider legendary again? I haven't heard anything so far and there's nothing in the patchnotes, no comment on that either. He's been in that sorry state since the betas and that really needs to change. It's well known that he's struggling against skilled opponents due to his predictability, severe lack of versatility (and options) and overall sluggishness. Out of all vanguards he's by far the worst and that's a shame since he's quite a cool character with a lot of potential...to be legendary ;-)

Some suggestions would be to give him more openers and a mix-up chain with heavy and light attacks. I'd also focus more on his "dirty fighting" and crowd control because that's what's unique about him compared to the other vanguards. Give him a knockdown (come on, the shape of his axe is perfectly made to pull somebody's leg away) or some wrestling moves, or a kick to the balls that also drains stamina in addition to damage. I'd love to see him build around stamina management and manipulation - he should get several (dirty) tools to drain his opponents' stamina, and something he can do when they're fatigued, but maybe that would make him too complex for a vanguard class.

Or how about upping his attack speed and reducing his stamina costs with subsequent attacks (and feints), especially on the heavies? That'd fit his character perfectly and you guys did a great job on the creative design behind all the classes. I'm pretty sure you can come up with something cool for Raider and see, how to make it work.

Do you have any data on how much Raider got played compared to other classes? I ran a check list and counted what I've encountered most in dominion/brawl and found him to be very underrepresented outside the beginner tier brackets, which is not a good sign. The results arent statistically representative of course, but they nevertheless confirm exactly what people feel like is wrong with him: He's a noobstomper and insanely difficult to play at competitive level.

As for Lawbringer, I'm no pro by any means but if I were you, I'd look into making parrying more rewarding. Currently all he has (that is unique to him) is either the charge or the overhead unblockable. Both are easily parried, which shouldn't be the case. Personally, I'd up his overall attackspeed after a parry for a brief period of time or his next attack so the parry-class doesn't get parried himself that easy.

The side light attacks are almost as slow as an assassin's heavy. It's not as bad on Lawbringer, since he has some other (albeit limited) options, but nevertheless this is not a good state to be in. Also his overall range is quite a joke, considering he's wielding a polearm.

What's your take on the slow guardswitch speed on Raider and Lawbringer that is less than 1/3rd of any other (assassin) class? Peacekeeper light attack spam can be quite devastating, given your chosen internet infrastructure and the sluggish guardswitch speed. I'd love to hear the reason why you guys designed it that way because to me it doesn't make much sense, especially not on the Lawbringer.

An official statement on Raider would mean a lot to us.

Again, thanks for your reply.

This is great feedback regarding both classes! We currently don't have any information regarding changes coming to either Raider or Lawbringer just yet. Class balance is something we are approaching with caution, especially so early into the release. As more game-based statistics and player feedback becomes available, we will start to have a better picture about what changes are needed to find the proper balance. A good portion of players have been asking for hero pick-rate statistics and while we don't have that data available currently, we can certainly forward the suggestion to the team.


I find some irony in his post being mainly about Lawbringer (considered the worst character in the game, by a large margin), yet the gameplay changes link you provided doesn't even mention the class, at all.

Just because there aren't changes coming to Lawbringer now, doesn't mean there won't be in the future. :)

DemonReborn23
02-22-2017, 03:31 AM
Ubisoft you are talking about future but your game is broken on the present ironic dont you think?? Look at your forum see for youself the rage on the forum play the game for yourself and see for yourself how much the game is broken, it is sad, all time you say to us in the future we will fix we will buff we will add but the present is broken we already on the second week and nothing even more ironic is that you released alpha and 2 betas for us to test for you and the game is still that broken

Somedudesome
02-22-2017, 05:53 PM
Except it's not Demon. This may come off biased but the VAST majority of whatever issue's people are having (latency or otherwise) are completely overblown. Yes, the game isn't perfectly balanced, NO game is. However, we as a community are allowed to provide feedback with factual data and reasonable argument. If you follow this format, you'll probably get a response!!

Gubermensch
02-23-2017, 05:23 AM
**Revised, after some more thought


Very intelligent write-up OP, refreshing. I second the notion that Ubi has done a great job with this game. It has huge potential and is a blast to play. I hope dueling goes esport and that balance is made around the very high end of dueling skill, not to make everyone happy. My thoughts...

[B]Warden: make a wiffed shoulder barge more punishable, or remove shoulder barge cancel to gb option. Keep zone attack as is, penalty for blocking it balances it well.

**Conqueror: 1 dimensional hero, weak, boring (without using unpunishable shield bash). Shield bash needs to be punishable. After sb change, heavies, lights and light combo should be made faster, make shield bash riposte faster with a high risk/reward. Remove all-block, or significantly raise stam startup consumption.

Peacekeeper: Reduce bleed from 3 stab gb 33%.

**Lawbringer: Very predictable class. All lights out of shove mixup should be sped up 33%. Speed up normal side lights. Speed up the long arm.

**Kensai: forced to turtle and startup punish with overhead light. Makes for a boring fight. Speed up side lights. Make dodge attack late cancel-able.

**Shugoki: remove heal, reduce radius of running knockdown

Orochi: balanced

Nobushi: balanced

Raider: add cancel-able dodge heavy (similar to dodge light stun) at speed of side light, that does light damage, with no stun effect, make side lights slightly faster.

**Warlord: increase stamina usage of headbutt, 2 max; remove all-block all-together (or significantly raise all-block stam startup consumption), have attacks that currently chain with all-block chain to any guard direction.

Berserker: balanced after bug fix

Valkyrie: needs review after update

Bob__Gnarly
02-23-2017, 05:44 AM
**Warlord: increase stamina usage of headbutt, 2 max; remove all-block all-together (or significantly raise all-block stam startup consumption), have attacks that currently chain with all-block chain to any guard direction.

Remove all block? Sure, let's just take away one of his main weapons. Thank god you're not in charge of balancing.

Gubermensch
02-23-2017, 06:52 AM
Remove all block? Sure, let's just take away one of his main weapons. Thank god you're not in charge of balancing.

Instead of attacking me, attack my idea. Provide a rational justification for it.

The ability to turtle and reduce the game to gb/counter gb is a broken mechanic. It should at least be on par with a zone attack in stamina reduction immediately and then continue to drain. It doesn't make for a fun or complex game. Warlord would still be strong. Since it would be a substantial tool reduction, you wouldn't be able to entertain any added benefit in lieu of all-block? Like super armor on another attack, more heath, anything? The reason I advocate removing it is because it makes the game a joke. It's a fun idea, but a bad mechanic in competitive play.

CF_Xherra
02-23-2017, 07:19 AM
Just make it so the Lawbringer hits hard when they do. Make it rewards to land a parry. Make it rewarding to land a heavy. Right now its hard to hit and if we do it low damage. Not to mention we will run out of stamina instantly.

KillerMDH
02-23-2017, 08:02 AM
Instead of nerfing warden and trying to tone the game down to the level of worse classes why not bring other classes up to the level of warden? Every class should have abilities that mesh together as well as the wardens. The reason the warden is soo good is because his kit encourages offensive play opposed to many other classes that encourage you to turtle.

Orochi - Storm rush is insanely easy to read since it only comes from a right or left while also having the sword positioned on the side that the attack will be coming from before you even start running at your opponent. There needs to be some sort of mix up potential with this ability. Taking two baby steps or less to cancel it isn't a good option to bait your target because you don't regain control of your guards soon enough. Storm Rush needs some sort of mix up that allows the skill to be viable vs good players.

Heres what I think should happen to storm rush so it actually sees a use vs good players while also not being the go to ability that can just be spammed:

Storm rush is no longer spammable, (insert some priority needed to be met before gaining access to storm rush e.g. after a successful attack is landed). Storm rush is now unblockable (It can still be parried) and can be feinted at any time to immediately regain control of your guards in order to parry/deflect an attack, do not allow immediate access to top light attack if the user decided to feint. Maybe add a few more frames to the parry window.


Berserker - Slashing Rush's (zone attack) wind up speed seems to be lacking, What is the point of using it when moving backwards? Infinite combo chains are cool and all but vs a good player you're not going to do very well in 1v1 when spamming attacks vs a good opponent. What is the point of deflecting into "free guard break" when you can just parry into guard break like everyone else? Its much safer to parry. A class built around comboing with out having strong mix up or allowing feints to count as part of comboing doesn't seem to make much sense in a game that is so defense heavy.

Dingle_Joe
02-24-2017, 01:09 AM
Instead of nerfing warden and trying to tone the game down to the level of worse classes why not bring other classes up to the level of warden? Every class should have abilities that mesh together as well as the wardens. The reason the warden is soo good is because his kit encourages offensive play opposed to many other classes that encourage you to turtle.

No, the main reason warden is good is because his best attacks are 1 unreactable move and 1 almost unreactable move and he has a 50/50 that loops back into itself and does solid damage. He's always going to be good if he has those tools and if you give everyone tools like that it's going to be a complete guessing game instead of a game that takes skill and thought. Also, his 50/50s are unpunishable AND unreactable, which is why he's so stupid and EVERYONE hates him. He's just straight overpowered above every other character with basically a coin flip for defense, that's why he should be nerfed.

Somedudesome
02-28-2017, 05:16 PM
So just to go over some changes to the recent patch relating to this thread.

-Guard breaks: It feels as if the window to counter this has been widened. I've been testing all morning and it seems like you can spam it just like in beta and while you get it. Before, you had to either do it just before your opponent touched your shoulder OR time it just as he/she did it. Feels too easy to counter now.

-PK GB: This damage is now up to 41 if you perform all of the stabs. Before, it was 50(2 bars) so this is brought inline with other heavies. My defense as to why this should be slightly stronger than heavies is in the OP.

PK ZA: This is still the fastest attack in the game that cannot be reliably reacted to (when you factor online latency, input lag, ect.) This needs a big nerf.