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View Full Version : Warden's attack duration in ms : start/parry window/hit



Deriadoc
02-20-2017, 01:31 PM
First of all, sorry if my english isn't perfect.

So, I felt the warden was a bit too strong compared to ther other hero. His attack are fast, too fast I think, and he can use the glitch who allow you to start a heavy or a light to bait and turn it into a zone attack right away. ( Press R2/R1 first and use R1/R2 right away, your ennemy will see the beginning of the heavy/light and bait him in another guardstance)

I don't want to bother uploading a video. Believe me or not, check by yourself and you'll see I'm right :

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics
I'll take this as an exemple of average human reaction time : looks like it's going from 180 to 450ms. Let's take the average where the most ppl are : 260-280ms

We'll not take notice of controller delay/pings/lag/netcode here, cause i'm not a specialist.
Theses aren't completely perfect number. Got some variation when recording and analysing. Never above 10-15ms tho.

So here you go :

Side light attack :
Start - 0
Parry Window Start - 300
Parry Window End - 400
Hit - 580 ms
So the attack take about 580ms to hit, with a window parry of 100ms starting at 300ms into the attack. Human average reaction time : 260-280ms. So, you can parry, you can block. Balanced.

Top Light Attack :
Start - 0
Parry Window Start - 110ms
Parry Window End - 210ms
Hit - 400ms
The attack take 400ms to hit, with a window parry of 100ms starting at 110ms into the attack. If you manage to parry this one, you just got lucky on one heavy, or you belong to the 1%
Btw - 400ms is very fast. Take a look at human benchmar, at lot of people are above 400ms

Zone Attack :
Start - 0
Parry Window Start - 240
Parry Window End - 320
Hit - 520 Edit : With another test, we saw that the speed of the hit depend on how far you from the target. A very close one take about 380-400ms to hit. When a far one take 500+ to hit

I'm not sure about the hit timing, it may depend on how far you are from the target. And we were not close when we recorded it.
The window parry start at 240ms, and last 80ms. It's in the average reaction time. So you can react to it (If u don't add controller lag and the netcode to this)

And here is the broken part :
The Top/Side light/heavy into Zone attack :
Notice that the warden already have a super fast top light, and that's why this is ********.
Start of the top bait - 0
End of the top bait and start of the Zone Attack - 170ms (since the start)/0ms (since the start of zone attack)
Parry Window start - 270/100
Pärry Window End - 370/200
Hit - 560/390

So, by doing this, you can reduce the time it take for the attack to hit, and shorter the parry window. Instead of being between 240/320ms, its between 100/200ms.
This become not parryable. And you'll have to remember that the first thing you see when this attack attack start, is a attack in another direction !

These are just number, do what you want with it.

But if you add theses number with the netcode, the controller delay and this : https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/5utcwp/block_speeds_of_all_heroes/ , for me, this become broken as ****.

And by the way, with the current state of GuardBreak, the shoulderbash into Guardbreak is extremly hard to counter.

(Again, sorry about my english !)

CaptainGelo
02-20-2017, 01:42 PM
yes, balanced is so **** for skill based game

Gojema
02-20-2017, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the numbers. I wish there'd be some for every class / attacks.

CaptainGelo
02-20-2017, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the numbers. I wish there'd be some for every class / attacks.
I can give you numbers for the lawbringer:
You can start an attack, go play another character and come back just in time to see your attack get parried

SerArthur-Dayne
02-20-2017, 02:03 PM
Warden an odd hero tbh. I main Peacekeeper but have played with him a good bit too. All hes got is the same boring janky GB bash combo, that feels a bit broke. And everywhere else he feels like the worst hero going. Slow, super predictible attacks, very limited moveset, just nothing special in any regard.

Ive played Orochi, kensei, nobushi, conq, and PK. And they all seem so much better.

Even feinting heavys/bashes, and then trying to get in a heavy is impossible, everone else is just far too quick, so quite literally the only moves you have left are light attack bash combo, or feint to zone attack.

I think some characters need to have their spammy moves toned down a bit, but given some more movesets that are a bit quicker or something, like some sidestep to light attacks, or some other special feint/move combos or something. Warden is a one trick pony thats a bit spammy, then pretty bad other than that imo.

Deriadoc
02-20-2017, 02:08 PM
Thanks for the numbers. I wish there'd be some for every class / attacks.

I don't have the courage x)

Robbeeeen
02-20-2017, 02:17 PM
First of all, sorry if my english isn't perfect.

So, I felt the warden was a bit too strong compared to ther other hero. His attack are fast, too fast I think, and he can use the glitch who allow you to start a heavy or a light to bait and turn it into a zone attack right away. ( Press R2/R1 first and use R1/R2 right away, your ennemy will see the beginning of the heavy/light and bait him in another guardstance)

I don't want to bother uploading a video. Believe me or not, check by yourself and you'll see I'm right :

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics
I'll take this as an exemple of average human reaction time : looks like it's going from 180 to 450ms. Let's take the average where the most ppl are : 260-280ms

We'll not take notice of controller delay/pings/lag/netcode here, cause i'm not a specialist.
Theses aren't completely perfect number. Got some variation when recording and analysing. Never above 10-15ms tho.

So here you go :

Side light attack :
Start - 0
Parry Window Start - 300
Parry Window End - 400
Hit - 580 ms
So the attack take about 580ms to hit, with a window parry of 100ms starting at 300ms into the attack. Human average reaction time : 260-280ms. So, you can parry, you can block. Balanced.

Top Light Attack :
Start - 0
Parry Window Start - 110ms
Parry Window End - 210ms
Hit - 400ms
The attack take 400ms to hit, with a window parry of 100ms starting at 110ms into the attack. If you manage to parry this one, you just got lucky on one heavy, or you belong to the 1%
Btw - 400ms is very fast. Take a look at human benchmar, at lot of people are above 400ms

Zone Attack :
Start - 0
Parry Window Start - 240
Parry Window End - 320
Hit - 520
I'm not sure about the hit timing, it may depend on how far you are from the target. And we were not close when we recorded it.
The window parry start at 240ms, and last 80ms. It's in the average reaction time. So you can react to it (If u don't add controller lag and the netcode to this)

And here is the broken part :
The Top/Side light/heavy into Zone attack :
Notice that the warden already have a super fast top light, and that's why this is ********.
Start of the top bait - 0
End of the top bait and start of the Zone Attack - 170ms (since the start)/0ms (since the start of zone attack)
Parry Window start - 270/100
Pärry Window End - 370/200
Hit - 560/390

So, by doing this, you can reduce the time it take for the attack to hit, and shorter the parry window. Instead of being between 240/320ms, its between 100/200ms.
This become not parryable. And you'll have to remember that the first thing you see when this attack attack start, is a attack in another direction !

These are just number, do what you want with it.

But if you add theses number with the netcode, the controller delay and this : https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/5utcwp/block_speeds_of_all_heroes/ , for me, this become broken as ****.

And by the way, with the current state of GuardBreak, the shoulderbash into Guardbreak is extremly hard to counter.

(Again, sorry about my english !)


Those seem ridiculously slow. There's not way that the zoneattack takes 560ms to hit, else i'd be blocking it 100% of the time. There must be a crazy lag-component to every attack if this is to be true.

Deriadoc
02-20-2017, 02:25 PM
Those seem ridiculously slow. There's not way that the zoneattack takes 560ms to hit, else i'd be blocking it 100% of the time. There must be a crazy lag-component to every attack if this is to be true.

Take a look a this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAU5bIalbnc you'll get why.
And take a look at the last link of my post, about guard changing speed.
And know you understand why this seem fast.

I just checked on another video I made for my test with a closer opponent. The hit happen around 400ms. So the hit on the attack zone depend on how far you are from the target. My bad

awolcz
02-20-2017, 02:25 PM
OP definitely does not like Wardens. This post is not very objective. I'm missing measurement for other classes in that case. Top attack of Warden is fast, but why don't you play with top guard when playing against warden? Experienced players does it, so they eliminate Wardens fastest attack and are still able to block and parry other attacks. Warden only has top attack and shoulder bash, so all moves are predictable, but you are having problems even with that.

Btw, light attacks of Orochi, Nobushi and Valkyrie seems also fast to me, but I learned how to predict them. For example Orochi is switching sides, right, left, right, left... so I just allow him to hit me on one side and parry on the second. It takes time but you need to learn other heroes, their movesets, common practices, weaknesses

You all remember me that Sully movie, where everybody was trying to blame based on science and calculations and forgot human factor. And human factor in For Honor is experience, prediction, knowing your enemy, learning, adaptability etc.

Deriadoc
02-20-2017, 02:35 PM
OP definitely does not like Wardens. This post is not very objective. I'm missing measurement for other classes in that case. Top attack of Warden is fast, but why don't you play with top guard when playing against warden? Experienced players does it, so they eliminate Wardens fastest attack and are still able to block and parry other attacks. Warden only has top attack and shoulder bash, so all moves are predictable, but you are having problems even with that.

Btw, light attacks of Orochi, Nobushi and Valkyrie seems also fast to me, but I learned how to predict them. For example Orochi is switching sides, right, left, right, left... so I just allow him to hit me on one side and parry on the second. It takes time but you need to learn other heroes, their movesets, common practices, weaknesses

You all remember me that Sully movie, where everybody was trying to blame based on science and calculations and forgot human factor. And human factor in For Honor is experience, prediction, knowing your enemy, learning, adaptability etc.

That's where you are wrong. I love warden and his playstyle. I mained him on the open beta, and he was already strong. I stopped it cause it was just too easy to kill people with him.

And no, you can't stay on top guard versus a good warden, cause his zone attack is as fast as the zone attack. And you can bait a top light and turn it into a zone attack.
This is the only thing I cry about, cause this is a glitch, and this is way too fast to react at a human level if you add the lag components.

Stay guard top ? He'll bait you with a top start and a zone attack.
You got lucky : it was a top attack finally, but you can't parry it. You predicted it was a fake top to a zone attack, you blocked it but you can't parry it cause it is too fast with the glitch. Either case : Back to square one.

You got unlucky : You go for left guard to block a "maybe" top to a zone attack glitch : U failed : Welcome to the vortex ! You stay top guard, it was a zone attack. Now what ?

awolcz
02-20-2017, 02:38 PM
Zone attack drains half of Warden's stamina. It is more likely finisher, not the regular move which is used often. Also, damage output is not as large as top heavy. You need like 6 zone attacks to kill Assassin.

awolcz
02-20-2017, 02:42 PM
Warden is straightforward class. It does not have many cool moves same as other classes, but when you master it, you are top tier. This is fact you do not want to accept.

So except standard game mechanics as GB or Parry, Warden has:
- Shoulder bash -> People complaining
- Shoulder bash mix up -> People complaining
- Great zone attack -> People complaining
- Super fast top light -> People complaining
- Double side light -> People complaining

So, when we remove or Nerf whatever some people are complaining about regarding Warden, what will Warden have? I think that he will be more like that AI controlled Knight from Skirmish and Dominion. Basically parry training dummy with nothing special.

Deriadoc
02-20-2017, 02:44 PM
So what ? You just take a hit, you need a recover time from the hit, and meanwhile, the warden can just back away from you to gain this stamina back.

This is possible, and this is how good warden kills you. They try to make one of theses two attack hit, until they successfully hit you with the light one, and here you go, welcome to the vortex. And the only option here is to dodge roll away cause shoulderbash into guardbreak is kinda bugged or broken (anything related to guardbreak is bugged anyway). Back to square one, You dodge out with a roll, lost half stamina, and no possibility to counter...

I already did it with him. This is a cancer kind of gameplay I agree. But this is how EVERY high level warden play. I'll not blame them, this is too strong for not being use.



Warden is straightforward class. It does not have many cool moves same as other classes, but when you master it, you are top tier. This is fact you do not want to accept.

So except standard game mechanics as GB or Parry, Warden has:
- Shoulder bash -> People complaining
- Shoulder bash mix up -> People complaining
- Great zone attack -> People complaining
- Super fast top light -> People complaining
- Double side light -> People complaining

So, when we remove or Nerf whatever some people are complaining about regarding Warden, what will Warden have? I think that he will be more like that AI controlled Knight from Skirmish and Dominion. Basically parry training dummy with nothing special.


I'm not complaining about shoulderbash. This is balanced the way it is. The bugged guardbreak make this broken. Once this is fixed, this will be good.
I have nothing wrong with the fast top light, this is where you don't get what I said : Its the combo that offer the glitched zone attack, the super fast zone attack and the top light which is broken.
Fix the zone attack (don't allow ppl to bait one side and turn it into a zone attack), nerf it a bit (just a bit, something like 50/100ms BEFORE the parry window) and here you go, the warden is balanced.

Don't touch the top light, don't touch the shoulderbash, just fix the two bug (guardbreak/zone attack bait)

awolcz
02-20-2017, 02:54 PM
Wardens zone attack comes always from the same direction - left side. It consumes 50 % of his stamina so he will probably back up. This is moment you should use - charge attack for example, feint or whatever. Whenever warden uses zone attack, I always use impaling charge with my Lawbringer and then start shove + heavy + heavy chain. Whenever warden uses light+light combo, I just use shove alternate and advantage is on my side now. It seems to me you are just not good enough in the game and now try to find some scientific reason, instead of admitting that you should train better. Every move can be countered. Every chain can be broken. You just need to know how. I'm having much more trouble with Orochi and Peacekeaper, because they dodge from my shoves, but it does not mean I can not beat them. And if I can not, it is my fault.

Deriadoc
02-20-2017, 03:03 PM
Dude, do you even read what I said ?
"Wardens zone attack comes always from the same direction - left side."
Yes, it's always a left side; BUT there's a GLITCH that allow you to show the beginning of another attack BEFORE the zone attack, and it make the zone attack hit you even FASTER.

So, you have the top light super fast, the zone attack who is pretty fast. And you can with this glitch, make it look like ytou are going for a top light (so the super fast) and instantly turn it into a FASTER ZONE ATTACK.

And you can literraly rekt people just by using this. Warden isn't the only hero who can do it, every hero can do it, BUT the combination of the super fast top light, with the even faster zone attack make it broken. You, as human just CANT react to this. This is way too fast.

And even if you are one of the guy who got incredible reaction time and manage to see throught the glitch and switch the guard on time, this will not work CAUSE OF THE FCKING LAG, the guard will be on the side, but you'll still get hit. This is my point.

awolcz
02-20-2017, 03:08 PM
Well, if there really is a glitch, then they can fix it and we will be both happy. I just don't want well balanced character to be nerfed only because someone is getting stomped by vortex. If your only point was only about some special combination of moves and glitch, then I probably misunderstood.

warlorth
02-20-2017, 03:14 PM
i consider warden to be the most OP class in the game, simply because he can be cheesed so easily.

Deriadoc
02-20-2017, 03:17 PM
Just, try it with a friend in a duel with no damage :
tell him to take the warden, tell him to put his guard top and tell him to do a zone attack BUT, do not press both R1/R2 in the same time, first R2 or R1, and then the second, with a good timing you'll see. The first indicator you'll see will be a top attack red cursor and then switching into a zone attack left cursor.
This make the brain game terrible. You just have to bait your opponent this way with the super fast top light, and the zone attack glitch. You'll hit for sure, and the guy will be lost.

And the vortex just need the GB fixed. The hero is fine, the glitch and bug the game has now make it broken.

A tiny little nerf on the speed of that zone attack won't be bad (i'm talking about something less than 100ms more)

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 03:25 PM
Quality post. Congratz.

I do think the zone attack has way too much range and seems too fast making it and real and rather unpredictable option in 1on1. I already keep my guard left, unless he is running at me (in which case I go right), because of that.

Should definitely be discussed and devs should probably give some info as if this is working as intended for high lvl play.

Sure brings a lot to light when you consider other subtleties.