PDA

View Full Version : YP80 engine, again.



Woof603
03-14-2004, 02:55 PM
Sorry, I know this has been discussed before, but why does the YP80 engine keep quitting? Thanks for any info.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

Woof603
03-14-2004, 02:55 PM
Sorry, I know this has been discussed before, but why does the YP80 engine keep quitting? Thanks for any info.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

Juego
03-14-2004, 02:58 PM
What do you mean?You mean like when you start on QMB and the engien is dieing? YOu just need to put power and it will work fine.

==============================
*Forums*SimHQ (http://www.simhq.com/)|Netwings (http://www.netwings.org)|IL2 WebSite (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/)
*Essentials*IrFanView (http://www.irfanview.com/)|HyperLobby (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/index.php?page=download)|UberDemon (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html)
*Cool Stuff*Mudmovers (http://www.mudmovers.com/)|Il2 FB Movies (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Frameset/index2.htm)|Il2 FB Skins (http://www.il2skins.com/)|IL2 FB Data base (http://jg777.com/il2/images/)
*Downloads*SpyBot SD (http://www.safer-networking.org/index.php?lang=en&page=download)|SpywareBlaster (http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html)|OmegaCorner Drivers (http://www.omegacorner.com/)
*Server*Upload images here (http://photobucket.com/)
==============================

Korolov
03-14-2004, 03:00 PM
You have to move the throttles slowly like on the Me-262, or it'll flame out.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Zyzbot
03-14-2004, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Woof603:
Sorry, I know this has been discussed before, but why does the YP80 engine keep quitting? Thanks for any info.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it does seem a bit more sensitive than the other jets. I had it die on take off once even though I was careful to advance the throttle slowly.

Woof603
03-14-2004, 03:24 PM
Thanks, guys. I guess it's just supersensitive. I could've sworn I wasn't even moving the throttle. I'll take off my boxing gloves next time.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

DONB3397
03-14-2004, 04:18 PM
Didn't early jet engines spool-up (and down) very slowly? Flameouts in the Shooting Star caused the deaths of a couple of USAAF aces -- including Bong. Perhaps the FMs were designed to show this characteristic.

Flying jets in the late 40's was hazardous. Don Gentile was a test pilot for the P-80 and encountered the flameout problem once, and later was killed in a T-33 (though I can't recall the cause). I've read that alloys used for the fan blaces in the late 40's also tended to fracture and break under the heat and speed of a jet turbine.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCIuMVAB.EuILZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

Magister__Ludi
03-14-2004, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DONB3397:
Didn't early jet engines spool-up (and down) very slowly? Flameouts in the Shooting Star caused the deaths of a couple of USAAF aces -- including Bong. Perhaps the FMs were designed to show this characteristic.

Flying jets in the late 40's was hazardous. Don Gentile was a test pilot for the P-80 and encountered the flameout problem once, and later was killed in a T-33 (though I can't recall the cause). I've read that alloys used for the fan blaces in the late 40's also tended to fracture and break under the heat and speed of a jet turbine.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCIuMVAB.EuILZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Loosing turbine blades happened often with the early jets, but rarely with catastrophic results.
Flame outs and the bad handling (due to enormous fuselage fuel tanks) were the major causes for accidents in the early days of jets.

RobertNighthawk
03-14-2004, 04:26 PM
I thought it was just me. Sometimes I experience flameouts after 10 mins. or so flying the YP-80 and I can fly the 262 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif so I wonder if this is not modelling of RL?...or just my usual, you know, pilot error. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I lose all power and cannot re-start the engine.

Woof603
03-14-2004, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertNighthawk:
I thought it was just me. Sometimes I experience flameouts after 10 mins. or so flying the YP-80 and I can fly the 262 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif so I wonder if this is not modelling of RL?...or just my usual, you know, pilot error. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I lose all power and cannot re-start the engine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what's happening to me. And it wasn't like that in real life, at least not in the T33. I had a few hours in it prior to checking out in the F86 and we had no problems with flame outs. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

HarryVoyager
03-14-2004, 06:29 PM
Bong was killed because a fuel cap came off on takeoff, not because of engine failure.

Harry Voyager

DONB3397
03-14-2004, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HarryVoyager:
Bong was killed because a fuel cap came off on takeoff, not because of engine failure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps. What was the result? Did it explode?

Quote: "On the afternoon of August 6, 1945, Bong took off on his 12th flight in a P-80. Just after the aircraft became airborne, the engine flamed out and the P-80 went down, killing Bong instantly." -- William Penne, "ACES."

These guys and their editors sometimes simplify for the sake of brevity, but generally get the event right. Perhaps the missing cap caused pressurization problems that resulted in a flame out. Post your source, please. Thanks.

[This message was edited by DONB3397 on Sun March 14 2004 at 06:44 PM.]

Zyzbot
03-14-2004, 07:59 PM
Early Problems

In the early years some T-33s were blowing up just after take-off. The T-33 (F-80) had a fuselage tank just aft of the cockpit, filled through a zeus fastened cover plate and tank cap. Some of the pilots and/or ground crews were not diligent in checking the door or the cap. The aircraft would take off and at about 120 knots, the airflow would create a vacuum immediately over this cover. If it and the cap were not properly closed, the kerosene would be sucked out of the tank.

Immediately behind the the filler tube were spring-loaded plenum chamber doors feeding extra air to the engine. These didn't close until the aircraft reached about 200 knots. The combustible mixture would ignite and cause the plan to explode. The problem was solved by placing two fins underneath the cover which had to mesh with the fin on the cap. The cover could not be locked if the cap wasn't secured. The pilots would always check the cover and it's zeus fastener after hearing the horror story once.


http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html


http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html

DONB3397
03-14-2004, 08:26 PM
Thanks, Zyzbot. Good explanation. That must have been the situation with Bong's crash.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCIuMVAB.EuILZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

RobertNighthawk
03-14-2004, 10:00 PM
Woof, I have a 35mm slide from the 50's of my Dad flying in a T-Bird. He says their plane stayed aloft better than my YP-80. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Gibbage1
03-14-2004, 11:15 PM
I have the pilots manual, and so does Oleg. IT says in there in very big bold print to NOT back down the throttle too fast or it will flame out. It also has engine re-start instructions and if you fallow them it will work. It also says NEVER stay inverted for more then 15 seconds or the engine will also flame out. I dont know if this is modeled since I had had no reason to be inverted for more then 15 seconds http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But the YP-80 in the game fallows the manual very well and I am very pleased.

RobertNighthawk
03-15-2004, 02:23 AM
Thanks, Gibbage, I think I need to watch out for the throttle down.

S!

Magister__Ludi
03-15-2004, 06:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Woof603:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertNighthawk:
I thought it was just me. Sometimes I experience flameouts after 10 mins. or so flying the YP-80 and I can fly the 262 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif so I wonder if this is not modelling of RL?...or just my usual, you know, pilot error. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I lose all power and cannot re-start the engine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what's happening to me. And it wasn't like that in real life, at least not in the T33. I had a few hours in it prior to checking out in the F86 and we had no problems with flame outs. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


T-33 does not have the same engine with YP-80 or first series of P-80A. T-33 uses a J33-A-35 a late series engine whereas YP-80 and first series of P-80A uses J33-A-9/11, an early and unreliable J33.

Magister__Ludi
03-15-2004, 06:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertNighthawk:
Thanks, Gibbage, I think I need to watch out for the throttle down.

S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watch the fuel pressure gauge when you use the throttle, it's reasonable easy this way. If the engine flames out you can restart it.

p1ngu666
03-15-2004, 06:32 AM
the engine can stall aswell as flame
ive had it stall
u can restart tho, and u can restart 262/162 inflight too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

Magister__Ludi
03-15-2004, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DONB3397:
Thanks, Zyzbot. Good explanation. That must have been the situation with Bong's crash.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bong crashed because of engine sation with fuel at full throttle, resulting in engine fire (at take off). There was no fuel cap involved in his accident, fuel cap was a problem solved many years later. After Bong's accidents P-80 fitted with this type of engine were grounded for a few months, then again a few months later for similar accidents. Though in the end the planes fitted with this type of engine (A-9/11) were considered operational (summer of '46), they were not used in combat operations because the engine was not considered reliable. Only F-80C were used in Korea, which is a P-80A with ejection seat and a different engine. After korean war, F-80A which were basically grounded at that time, were upgraded to F-80C standard with war stocks of late J33 series.

Fuel cap excuse for Bong's accident was invented by Gibbage, who can't stand that P-80 had so many troubles in it's infancy.

Woof603
03-15-2004, 08:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertNighthawk:
Woof, I have a 35mm slide from the 50's of my Dad flying in a T-Bird. He says their plane stayed aloft better than my YP-80. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I flew it in 1952, to transition from AT6 to F86. The only remarkable thing I remember about the T33 was the condom stretched over the throttle to prevent electrical shocks. An imaginative local mod that worked very well. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Re the YP80, I've managed only one air restart. Is there a secret to this in FB?

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

Gibbage1
03-15-2004, 01:07 PM
I did not "Invent" the fuel cap problem. Its real.

August 6, 1945, Major Richard Bong, Medal of Honor holder and leading USAAF fighter ace with 40 victories in the Pacific, was killed when the engine of his P-80A-1-LO (44-85048) exploded shortly after takeoff. By that time, no less than eight YP-80As and P-80As had been destroyed in crashes, seven had been severely damaged, and six pilots had been killed. The day after Bong's fatal crash, the USAAF ordered the Shooting Star grounded until the problems could be corrected. The grounding order was lifted on November 7, but was soon followed by another grounding, this time caused by problems with the J33-A-9 jet engine. The aircraft was cleared for flight shortly thereafter, but the accident rate still remained high, with no less than 61 Shooting Stars being involved in accidents by September of 1946. Most of these accidents were not the result of any critical flaws in the basic design of the Shooting Star, but were caused primarily by errors on the part of pilots inexperienced with the particular idiosyncracies of jet aircraft.

In the early years some T-33s were blowing up just after take-off. The T-33 (F-80) had a fuselage tank just aft of the cockpit, filled through a zeus fastened cover plate and tank cap. Some of the pilots and/or ground crews were not diligent in checking the door or the cap. The aircraft would take off and at about 120 knots, the airflow would create a vacuum immediately over this cover. If it and the cap were not properly closed, the kerosene would be sucked out of the tank.

Immediately behind the the filler tube were spring-loaded plenum chamber doors feeding extra air to the engine. These didn't close until the aircraft reached about 200 knots. The combustible mixture would ignite and cause the plan to explode. The problem was solved by placing two fins underneath the cover which had to mesh with the fin on the cap. The cover could not be locked if the cap wasn't secured. The pilots would always check the cover and it's zeus fastener after hearing the horror story once.

P.S. Your biest is showing.

[This message was edited by Gibbage1 on Mon March 15 2004 at 12:17 PM.]

Latico
10-31-2004, 08:41 PM
I'd like to get some info on this myself. I have yet to fly the YP80 for more than a few minutes without some kind of engine failure. Any thing from fires and explosions to just plain quiting. And I don't know how to re-start either. I can re-start prop planes but not this one.

WUAF_Badsight
10-31-2004, 11:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Woof603:
Re the YP80, I've managed only one air restart. Is there a secret to this in FB? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
nope

just get on its case as quick as you can , & when it fires leave it alone (start button & throttle . . . . HANDS OFF !)

airspeed helps

or land & stop completely , that always works http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WUAF_Badsight
10-31-2004, 11:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Latico:
I'd like to get some info on this myself. I have yet to fly the YP80 for more than a few minutes without some kind of engine failure. Any thing from fires and explosions to just plain quiting. And I don't know how to re-start either. I can re-start prop planes but not this one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>thats cause its a J_E_T http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

seriously , once your praticed you know how fast you can get away with moving the throttle , but it still will catch you out at times

most people who fly FB online dont get a lot of time in the J_E_T aircraft & its true , they are more of a pain to fly

WUAF_Badsight
10-31-2004, 11:59 PM
dont those wing tanks look the part , keeping the whole wing clean for airflow


http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/f80.jpg