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View Full Version : Will SH3 have a Dynamic Campaign?



U-319
04-15-2004, 11:22 AM
I want a U-boat Sim that i can play for years. I've played Medal of Honor, Call of Duty, and Return to castle wolfenstein. The Scripted missions were fun to play thru once. The MP was fun for awhile, but it got old as well. I would still be playing Aces of the Deep if it ran on my PC, because of the Dynamic mode alone.

Im sure you all have done heard this from every Sub sim player. But i want the feel that im out hunting the unknown.

Hope this helps!

Clemens U-319

U-319
04-15-2004, 11:22 AM
I want a U-boat Sim that i can play for years. I've played Medal of Honor, Call of Duty, and Return to castle wolfenstein. The Scripted missions were fun to play thru once. The MP was fun for awhile, but it got old as well. I would still be playing Aces of the Deep if it ran on my PC, because of the Dynamic mode alone.

Im sure you all have done heard this from every Sub sim player. But i want the feel that im out hunting the unknown.

Hope this helps!

Clemens U-319

Kejotikk
04-16-2004, 03:27 AM
What exactly do you guys mean with scripted/dynamic campaign? I don't like the idea of having anything scripted at all, having a true dynamic campaign like the one in Aces of the Deep (Which I still play to this day) will mean that SH3 will last forever.

The worst part of SH2 was the lack of a dynamic campaign, there is nothing fun with having to complete missions, okay so maybe it's fun the first time you play it but it quickly gets old. It should be like in the real war. You go out on patrols, and it's entirely possible to not come across a single ship during a whole patrol.

If you want guidance just look at Aces of the Deep, its dynamic campaign is still unchallenged today!

RealHondo
04-16-2004, 05:32 AM
yepp, a truely dynamic campaign is a must. playing one single mission after another is no campaign.

btw, it would be nice if there would be events like transfer from one sub flottilla to another or something like:"you meet a friend from submarine school. he might have an offer for a staff position. are you interested?" then you wait a little bit for the friend to get back to you. oh, and another thing: if there is something like a dynamic campaign: submarine commanders often got radio transmissions that they got an important award (like Ritterkreuz). don't have them to wait until they are back at base. they can get lesser awards at base (like U-Boot-Kampfabzeichen if included).

what do you think?

Tweak your offline campaign's setting

http:\\fly.to\dgentweaker (http://http:\\fly.to\dgentweaker)

Easty76
04-16-2004, 07:41 AM
As I stated before, u programers must listen to the players and include a fully dynamic campaign like Aces, the game would then as one of the guys stated would last forever fancy looks might be good for a while but real playability and emersing yourself in a dynamic career, nothing beats it, I still play aces to this day I have hardly touched SH2 with its much supperior graphics ect.. simply because of the dynamic campaign and the "not knowing factor"

Please consider this as the single most important feature of this simulation, most sub simmers I believe would agree with me.

Cheers
Easty

SailorSteve
04-16-2004, 11:32 AM
Yet another hold-out for the dynamic campaign. I also still play Aces Of The Deep, as well as the original Silent Hunter. They may both be old, but the randomness makes every game new again.

I also play SHII a lot, but that is mostly due to the amazing work done by the modding community. I can only imagine what they could have accomplished if allowed access to the source code.

Kron-161
04-16-2004, 01:47 PM
From what I read in the features... I think that we will have a scripted campaign with random elements in it... I wish I am wrong.

Egan2.0
04-16-2004, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kron-161:
From what I read in the features... I think that we will have a scripted campaign with random elements in it... I wish I am wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could also be a dynamic canpaign with scripted elements - as long as its better than the one that shipped with SH2.

I'm another of the 'Dynamic campaign' crowd though. it would sure be nice to know what it is we are getting...

CB..
04-16-2004, 09:09 PM
yes it's a bit of a conundrum (can't spell that word should have used another one lol!)
i prefer a dynamic campiagn ala AOD or red baron3d , but it's not hard to see why a scripted campiagn is considered attractive , allowing folks to write their onw etc and so on..(especailly if the in game mission editor is capable if not get Floater to write a new Kriegstanz ...best mission writing utility i have ever seen) but as any one who's ever written their own campaign knows, what yu are really aiming for is to write a dynamic campaign
lol!!! go figure.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Mon Pavion
04-17-2004, 01:51 AM
I have to side with the dynamic campaign crowd. Replayability is the key. I would really like to see stuff carry over from one mission to the next, ala IL-2FB. For example: the computer will determine how many exceptionally talented brit destroyer commanders will be operating in you area before you begin your campaign. If you sink one of them, thats it, hes gone and you will not have to face him again(during future patrols). You know what i am saying? It would be cool if they gave each ship and its crew its own characteristics(AI included), and made it possible to encounter the same ship on seperate patrolls until you sink him. I guess that would be a huge hit on CPU demand though.

OH!,..and one thing i hate is when you have to finish one mission to go on with the next. If german u-boat skippers failed their mission, did they have to "re-play" it? No. It is much cooler when you just make failing one mission have different implications in the following mission(s).

[This message was edited by TheGeneral_D on Sat April 17 2004 at 01:02 AM.]

[This message was edited by TheGeneral_D on Sat April 17 2004 at 01:02 AM.]

mog_tr
04-17-2004, 05:26 AM
It says that the campaign will be both dynamic and scripted. This is the best of both worlds. You have all the random elements plus the capacity to recreate historic missions where scripting is required.

RealHondo
04-17-2004, 05:53 AM
To literally translate a German saying:"It's neither fish nor meat." Meaning it's not really anything of it. Don't want to paint it black though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

================================================== =====
Tweak your offline campaign's setting

http:\\fly.to\dgentweaker (http://http:\\fly.to\dgentweaker)

SailorSteve
04-17-2004, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mog_tr:
It says that the campaign will be both dynamic and scripted. This is the best of both worlds. You have all the random elements plus the capacity to recreate historic missions where scripting is required.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If indeed that is what it means, and if it works properly, then I think we'll all be happy.

But until we know for sure, those are just "ifs".

Steinwald
04-18-2004, 04:50 AM
Agreed, dynamic campaing is sweet.

Keep up the good work! The demands from some people are unbelievable and the requested feature-list is huge http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (I work as software developer myself). Anyway I will buy the game no matter what, whenever it is released.

Those screenshots can't be in-action dumps, can they?

Junk_Dog
04-18-2004, 04:37 PM
I'm just hoping that the scripted parts don't have to be repeated in order to continue through a career. that would loose my interest real fast

http://members.cox.net/nmcjunkins/U-753siga.gif

Drebbel
04-19-2004, 01:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GreyGhost_U-753:
I'm just hoping that the scripted parts don't have to be repeated in order to continue through a career. that would loose my interest real fast
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, the arcade style missions (you must complete the 'level' first) were very annoying and unrealistic.


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
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Aviar
04-19-2004, 07:19 PM
If it doesn't have an open-ended true dynamic campaign like the Original Silent Hunter, it just won't work.

Everyone knew that SH2 would fail without a dynamic campaign and it did.

I don't understand how a dev team can be so blind and not see the obvious. It's not like it can't be done, so why fight it? Everyone in the community knows that a dynamic campaign is #1 on their wish list.

Personally, if it doesn't have a true dynamic campaign, I'm not buying it.

CDragon
04-19-2004, 08:45 PM
You know, its an interesting thought experiment: how to balance a truly dynamic campaign, historical accuracy, and gameplay. I'm real curious to see the Dev Team's solution.

Parsec
04-20-2004, 03:23 PM
Hi!
Please, we need a dynamic campaign!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

And what about the damage model???
i find it very boring to shoot 99 shells on a ship.. (nothing happens, little smoking only etc.) next shoot (boooomm...sunk) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Want more fire, visible damage.. particles and so on) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

any infos on that???

Greetings
Markus
(sorry for my bad english)

Kapitan_Nereus
04-21-2004, 01:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Personally, if it doesn't have a true dynamic campaign, I'm not buying it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn right, if this "Dynamic Campaign with scripted elements" is even remotely similar to SHII's campaign, i won't touch it with a 500 foot pole...

"The Hunt is on..."

Drebbel
04-21-2004, 01:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>damage model......any infos on that???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FAQ and features list has some info on that.

The dev-team also has a guy hired especially for the damage model !


Drebbel

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Willey
04-21-2004, 04:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Parsec:
And what about the damage model???
i find it very boring to shoot 99 shells on a ship.. (nothing happens, little smoking only etc.) next shoot (boooomm...sunk) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got a point here. In SH II, you had to bang some 100 shells into a ship. It was such a simple "health points" system that it was exactly the same everytime. Aces of the Deep features a DM already. I remember putting some 60-100 shells in some ships, while others of the same type sunk after the 6th shell already. After some time I found out where I have to hit. For example, those troop transports were quite vulnerable in the center, close to the water line, below the smoke stacks. That was the key for almost all ships. Some went up quickly whne I hit the cargo bays, others needes half of my shell ammo. I even modded SH II to do some more damage with every gun. I raised them all by 5x. It's ridiculous to pump 3 20 rounds magazines of 20mm HE into a Sunderland to see it still flying. That one point where SH II was really bad IMHO. But luckily, the devs advise a complex damage model for SH III in the FAQ.

The main problem of SH II was it had 3 developer teams as far as I remember. It was first made by the team that made SH I, then it went to another team with soem guys of the old team where it was rewritten the first time, and then Ultimation took it up as the 3rd team. The dynamic Campaign was planned first, but they didn't get it working properly AFAIK.

What I see in that dynamic + scripted statement, and I hope it will be like this http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif:
A dynamic Campaign like in AoD. You'll go on patrols, encountering random convoys, single ships etc. But should also be some scripted, historical events. So you could meet up with Prien in Scapa Flow, or help the Bismarck fighting the Hood and others (if you don't patrol where the BdU wants you to patrol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). In some extent you could even manipulate history then, but I wouldn't want to turn the tides completely in that campaign.

ParaB
04-21-2004, 02:54 PM
Simply put:

No dynamic campaign-&gt; no money from me.

I am very grateful for what the community did to improve SH2 but the one mayor problem they couldn't really fix.

If the devs can't do a campaign similar to AoD I'll pass.

GlobalExplorer
04-21-2004, 03:49 PM
Why not make whatever campaign is demanded by ubi (scripted "missions" with dynamic elements and a lot of action, so the arcade folk will be happy), but make the missions open for us in some format like Xml, export results in a similar format at the end of a mission, and make crew/campaign progression possible with externally created campaigns/missions.
You would see lots of dynamic campaign generators in no time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
OT: I think Enigma Rising tide could have been the perfect submarine game if it had missions in open format, but they went with some binary format, so we are stuck with their stupid action missions.

Kejotikk
04-21-2004, 03:56 PM
Making the same kind of mission based campaign in SH3 will be a HUGE mistake. I doubt any arcade kind of people will even buy a subsim in the first place, so why cater to them? What everyone wants is a dynamic patrol based campaign that you can play through again and again without ever getting tired of it, would AOD still be played today if it had a mission based campaign? No it most certainly would not.

GlobalExplorer
04-21-2004, 04:35 PM
Might be you miss the point here like so many others. We all want a dynamic campaign, and we all know the game will not be played very long without one. But reality today is that publishers today couldn't care less how long you play their games, as long as buy them. They'd rather sell you several short lived games that you put down after some days (and head to next big thing), than one you will play for years.
I also completely disagree that any developer can afford to alienate the arcade crowd nowadays. It is not 1994 anymore when pure hardcore sims were mainstream. Today you must satisfy millions of computer illiterates who couldn't care less if they play a Type IVC/42 or Captain Nemo's nuclear battlestar as long as they can blow up loads of stuff.
So what I am saying is from my point of view they should do whatever market demands from them as long as the game can be fixed by the community. Writing a hardcore campaign generator is not as much of a problem as some of you seem to think, I could do it, as could tens of thousands others with the programming skills. All that is needed is a game that is created with community developers in mind.

suuune
04-21-2004, 08:13 PM
Yes,dynamic is a must and take it a step further with co-op included,then u won´t hear any comparisons with AOD anymore

walter_gouws
04-21-2004, 09:08 PM
I liked in the first Silent Hunter how you could sail around, and then run into random convoys, but sometimes you would have to sail around for days before you found anything...

Kapitan_Nereus
04-21-2004, 11:38 PM
Well thats what it was like on long range sub patrols, days, weeks maybe months without anything you can take on/is worth taking on...
time accerleration will probably be included if SHIII isn't an arcade game (Boo, down with arcade!)

hopefully there will be stuff to do if you don't want to accelerate time, like... for example, running drills to keep the crew sharp and efficient.

"The Hunt is on..."

Drebbel
04-22-2004, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Today you must satisfy millions of computer illiterates <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the potentional SHIII market was that big we would get the best subsim ever and patches/updates/expansion packs every year ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Drebbel

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Willey
04-22-2004, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GlobalExplorer:
Why not make whatever campaign is demanded by ubi (scripted "missions" with dynamic elements and a lot of action, so the arcade folk will be happy), but make the missions open for us in some format like Xml, export results in a similar format at the end of a mission, and make crew/campaign progression possible with externally created campaigns/missions.
You would see lots of dynamic campaign generators in no time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be just semi-dynamic, and it would suck.

There are several part that made the Aces DC so great:
- you went on a mission, with no specific target. You just got a sector to patrol in. You still could go somewhere else
- there were random convoys, battleship convoys, single freighters, depending on date and location. Sometimes you had 3 single ships and a whole convoy before reaching your destination and sometimes you burnt you whole diesel without having seen a single ship
- you got certain radiomessages with historical information sometimes
- the bar
- if the BdU offered you to get a new boat and a new crew, you could either take it or stay at you old one (I remember I got an type IX earlier when keeping the first VIIB instead of taking a VIIC)
- you just don't know what will happen http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - in scipted missions you'll know that you have to kick a convoy at x,y. That sucks.

I'd say, to create such a scripted campaign it just needs the the mission editor that we might get (dunno if it will be a comlex, full builder or just a QMG, but it sounds like FMB to me). With that, the community can create quite good scripted campaigns, or even large ones as and inofficial addon (I think of something like Operation Barbarossa, Aufstand der Ehre or Fall Blau for Il-2: FB - they're all far better than the original campaigns).

GlobalExplorer
04-22-2004, 08:54 AM
Willey: So you think DCG sucks?

CDragon
04-22-2004, 09:49 AM
DCG, for those who may not know, like me, stands for "Dynamic Campaign Generator" for CFS2, which itself stands for Combat Flight Simulator 2. You can find out more about it, like I did, at:

DCG (http://members.shaw.ca/dcgen/)

This is what SH2 needed.

Willey
04-24-2004, 07:57 AM
I know semi-dynamic generators for FB. They ain't bad, but for a u-boat sim this wouldn't be good. For SH2, that lacks a proper dynamic campaign it would help out. But for a new one they should make an Aces like dynamic campaign. It's not just up to 2 hours or so per mission, it's up to 2 months. A lot can happen there. If you generate a mission, if it incorporates your success or fail in provious missions or not, there won't be many differences then. On just can't add that much. In such missions you rather risk running out of targets if you drive for too long searching them, because they will all be in the harbours and no new convoys will be generated during the mission. It would be better than SH2, but still a bad attempt to give SH3 the longevity AoD still has. If I was a lead designer of a company that's going to make another subsim, I'd go for topping that old AoD to set a new mile stone. And that just includes a fully dynamic campaign. And I think the team making SH3 just does so. If not, Ubi is going to risk SH4 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I hope they aren't that dumb http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GlobalExplorer
04-24-2004, 11:54 AM
What you mean by semi-dynamic? I think that's highly subjective, and lacking imagination.
Maybe you have some ilusions about what AODs campaign was. Basically a vast ocean with a certain number of convois travelling from a to b, and aircraft spawned with a certain probability, depending on your proximity to airbases. There is no reason why a dynamic campaign generator couldn't generate this type of gameplay, there would be a new underlying campaign (convoy routes) generated every time you put to sea, which is used for a whole patrol, which is basically a string of missions. The missions would correspond to important days/events at sea, i.e. you would be told that convoys are nearby but you still have to find them.
One thing where you might be right is that in AOD played from a map of the Atlantic, but hey, all these things could run in the campaign generator as well. You choose time period and ship/crew members, or continue from a previous campaign. You put to sea and use time acceleration until something happens. At a certain proximity to convoys / ships a mission is generated which can then be exported to the subsim (if the sim supports it, that's my wish!). I don't think this is semi-dynamic, especially because missions will not play out the same every time, that's for sure.

[This message was edited by GlobalExplorer on Sat April 24 2004 at 11:17 AM.]

GlobalExplorer
04-24-2004, 12:09 PM
Upon reflection I think the only difference between externally generated "dynamic" missions and the continuous type AOD offered would be that you have to "disengage" and wait from a mission sometime and generate a new one for another encounter. Except you want to generate a single mission for the whole patrol and drive it in real time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But I don't have a problem with breaking off encounters (to generate new ones) because I think it's realistic that after every engagement there will be many (boring) days at sea until the next one is possible (finding new target, recharging batteries, waiting for the right time and weather for the next run). I assume you have read books like Das Boot so you should know the boredom of a patrol.

[This message was edited by GlobalExplorer on Sat April 24 2004 at 11:21 AM.]

TheAirMarshal
04-24-2004, 06:38 PM
Forget "Dynamic Campaign generators" what this sim REALLY needs is an open-ended ASCII based scripting language like that used in Operation Flashpoint.

Then we could make whatever kind of mission, dynamic campaign or persistant realtime frag match we please.

GlobalExplorer
04-25-2004, 04:10 AM
I agree Air Marshal. All I hope is that the game will have all the soft data (missions, campaigns) in plain human readable ASCII format missions/campaigns, preferrably XML.

And to those still who have already started the "we want a live simulator" whine. As much as everybody would like that, the F.A.Q. already states that SH3 will not have a dynamic campaign like RB2 or Falcon4. If they were working on this kind of campaign, they would be boasting about it by now, not try to embellish shortcomings with terms like "campaign mixing scripted and dynamic elements". For me this can only mean scripted campaign with dynamic mission (i.e. the play differently every time).

Bowfin
04-25-2004, 06:17 PM
you would think with all these comments about
AOD,the DEV would get the picture,maybe they
will suprise us with a mix of both,that work
well together.i really miss playing AOD. the
best u-boat sim ever (nothing eles comes close)

Aviar
04-26-2004, 05:27 PM
Sorry, but I don't want a mission 'generated' for me. That's not anything close to dynamic, even if every 'mission' is different. For a sub sim, this does not even come close to replacing a true dynamic environment.

I want to sail around and find contacts myself. I want the surprise of finding myself in the middle of an enemy convoy on a dark starlit night. I want to try and track down enemy ships after receiving information about their most recent locations. I want to position myself in busy shipping lanes in order to increase my chances of enemy contacts.

All of these things were possible in the original Silent Hunter. What a fantastic game. It had an historically correct dynamic campaign, depending on your sailing location and year of the war. A true dynamic environment cannot be replaced by any kind of generated missions, no matter how interesting they may proclaim to be.

Generated\scripted missions are for the 'Quake' crowd who want a quick mission or two before dinner. If that's what floats your boat, more power to you. Everyone has different tastes and I respect that. I can only give my own opinions. As a consumer, I have one basic way to convey my opinion to the game developers...through my wallet. In other words, I either buy their game or not.

In this case, I can simply tell them that I won't purchase Silent Hunter III if it doesn't have a dynamic campaign.


Aviar

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jpinard
04-27-2004, 10:08 PM
I absolutely want a dynamic campaign. Please not some scripted mission set!

Shan_Hackett
04-29-2004, 05:30 AM
A "Dynamic campaign" in its truest form, has nothing, or little to do with "Random" events, or at least not dependant on it.

For a living example, look at the "Dynamic capampigns of Empires' "Enemy Engaged" series, or further back still, Mircoprose's "Falcon 4.0".

With all the publicly published documentation on the Allied, foreign convoy systems, and naval flotilla's movements and strength, plus u can obtain just about anything, on any ship that ever sailed, at "Llyods of London". Including details such as shipbuilder, which shipyard it was built. To who owned it when, and where. To dates and times, locations sailed to and from, cargo manifests, etc - for a fee.

The point being, the infomation is out there.
There is "No" excuse not to create a dynamic campaign.

I'll give some exserted examples of the detail on some documentaion, i own:

"Convoys were refered to by an alpha code with a numeric suffix, normaly sequential. This applied to all convoys where the series was a reguarly repetitive cycle or where it was expected that convoy passages would recur, albeit at different intervals.
A number of convoys, however, were "One-Offs" and, because they were part of a military operation, bore the operation name. Others, while possessing thier own normal coding, were also part of a major operation and have therefore accuired, through common usage, the operation name. Examples are the first convoys to North Russia in 1941; denoted as Operation DERVISH, the convoy was offically referred to as "Convoy Dervish" in orders and dispatches."

- "Evidence from notes of Admiralty meetings held on 4 September 1939, however, indicate that while there was a wish that day to impliment convoy, adequate escorts were not yet available, as not all Reserve Fleet destroyers had then been deployed.
However, convoy in home waters commenced on the East coast between the Forth and the Thames on 6 September and outward convoys from Liverpool on 8 September. The first convoy (AB 1) had infact sailed on 2 September, comprising eight tankers from Gibraltar for the Persian Gulf. They had been held at Gibraltar since late August because of possible Italian entry to the anticipated war and were routed via Cape Town, under crusier escort as far as Freetown, to avoid undue delays to their passage. In the event, Italy delayed its entry to the war until German success appeared to be assured in June 1940.
Initially, convoy was required to cover those routes most threatened by air, surface or submarine action. Accordingly, it was introduced between the Firth of Forth and the Thames, outward from Liverpool (with ships joining from other ports en route). It passed south of Ireland to disperse at sea west of Land's End; from the Downs westward to Liverpool as a coastal convoy with an ocean contingent dispersing west of Land's End; and from a combination of ships from certain OA and OB convoys to Gibraltar.
These series were titled:
FN - Forth North; to the Forth from the Thames.
FS - Forth South; to the Thames from the Forth.
OA - Outward A; from the Thames via the Channel.
OB - Outward B; from Liverpool and the Bristol Channel.
OG - Outward Gibraltar."

With this sort of infomation to hand, the scope of a living, breathing campaign is quite literary, "endless", with re-routing, as and when the political climate changed, entry, and exist of axis pact nations..The possabilities are there. just need a dev' with the balls, to create it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

pzrshrek
04-29-2004, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mog_tr:
It says that the campaign will be both dynamic and scripted. This is the best of both worlds. You have all the random elements plus the capacity to recreate historic missions where scripting is required.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sucks!

"best of two worlds" bleh.. there isnt even one thing that is good with scripted missions. Its a dead horse and shouldnt be flogged. Let scripting missions in games end right here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

IL2 campaign structure isnt at all good, infact it sucks big time.

The only thing that works is:

* Red Baron 3D (never ever played such a beautiful campaign)

* Aces of the Deep (alas, topnotch!)

* Silent hunter (did the same as AOD, allthough abit thinner).

We need the updates between missions, war-news in the local pub etc! Intelligence reports of new weapons of the allies and so forth!!

And the radio messaging from other uboats and BdU inside the U-boat on patrols should be very smooth and realistic, and include news from the 'environments of world at war'.

I also say that if game will be scripted, im not spending anything on it, as i dont bother on scripted games at all.

Long live Panzer Campaigns by HPS! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

xwhitemousex
04-29-2004, 09:18 AM
Dynamic Campaign.... A MUST !!!

Scripted ones are far to easy to play through, and once you did them the first time, its all trotting the same path over again everytime after...

In short, you go through it once and your done with it, except for maybe the MP side.

I remember playing Falcon 4.0 and it was the first dynamic campaign game I played.

Unbeatable... Still today I play it, getting new challenges and a fresh, new, mission everytime I play.

Every encounter is different, and thats what makes it interesting.

A scripted campaign however... ok, you fail the first try, but then you know your convoy is going to have to pass through X,Y so you just go there immediately and wait... sod the whole patrol patterns, cause you know where they are anyhow, and where they will always go to over and over every single time you retry or replay the mission...

Dynamic &gt; all.

Some scripted events as the time in the campaign progresses to those dates should be available, though not all.

You shouldnt be assisting the Bismarck in every single campaign you run. Historical events should be rare and only happen now and then, else they get too common and quite frankly, they get trivial and not exciting.

of course, you can run rampage and break off your patrol sector and go on your own personal raid, however, that -should- have some impact on both your career awards (with getting a better Sub to command and medals et.c) as well as your crew morale (how would a crew react when you take the boat off course from your mission area and do your own thing?)

Just thoughts, but the bottom line is...

DYNAMIC!!! Please &gt;.&lt;

vonBimmell
05-01-2004, 09:54 AM
I can't believe the developers are even contemplating anything scripted. But just look at Lomac and the original IL2. I guess the lack of dynamic campaigns is standard for UBI. There was a big outcry from the Flightsim community for dynamic campaigns, that fell on deaf ears. IL2FB, I think, may have some form of Dynamic Campaign, but Im not sure as I gave up on UBI after SHII and the original IL2. There is no reason in this day and age that you cant have a fully dynamic campaign like Falcon 4.0. Look at how long that sim has been out. Even Falcon 3 had a fully dynamic campaign, and that was in the 1990's. That would be truely incredible to have a Falcon 4 style campaign engine in a subsim. The idea of having to replay a mission over and over again until I have sucessfully completed whatever it is they want but have them throw in a different ship or two on the side to give it a dynamic element does not appeal to me one bit. I was so looking forward to this new sim, but when I saw "scripted" in the campaign description, the excitement just died. I guess I can wait until it hits the bargain bins. There are some nice improvements in SHIII, but without a DC, it does not warrant paying $70. Ill have to see if I can get AOD to run in XP in the meantime.

Drebbel
05-01-2004, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>it does not warrant paying $70. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

$70 ??? Us dollars ???

At the moment a pre-order costs 45 US $ at the Subsim store (http://www.subsim.com/store.html)


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
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vonBimmell
05-01-2004, 10:26 AM
That is in Canadian dollars. The average new game release in Canada goes for between 65-80 Canadian dollars. I paid $69 Cdn for SHII, thinking that it might not be too bad even without a Dynamic Campaign. But it got very old very quickly. If it weren't for all the very talented modders in the SHII community, it wouldn't have lasted as long as it did on my hard drive. I had a hard drive failure 6 months ago, and never did re-install SHII. I bought FS2004, and have been hooked on the incredible graphics of that Flightsim, and was waiting for SHIII.

Redwine
05-01-2004, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CB..:

i prefer a dynamic campiagn ala AOD or red baron3d <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am agree with CB.........

Red Baron 3D has the BEST, campaing ever done in a sim.......... really incredible well done and inmersive, historical accurate........ just the best.......

That must to be taked as example by developers..........

______________________________
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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

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"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
.

Mon Pavion
05-02-2004, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GlobalExplorer:
Why not make whatever campaign is demanded by ubi (scripted "missions" with dynamic elements and a lot of action, so the arcade folk will be happy),.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you are "arcade folk", you should not be interested in playing this game. "arcade folk" ruin true sims. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

GlobalExplorer
05-03-2004, 12:12 PM
General_D:
No hard feelings, but I am certainly not "arcade folk". LOL
If you read my whole post you should notice that I suggested a way how a great core subsim can be "rescued" if there should be no dc (and there are strong indications this feature will be dropped.)
In fact I am a software developer and I have ideas in my head .. about a dc generator for a game like SHIII. Would have liked to do it for ERT but the missions are hard coded.
People here tend to be blind about todays "realities of software development". A dc is an immensely complicated feature that can make a game buggy as hell. Thats why developers stay clear of it if there is no backing of their publisher. Thats why they choose the known linear progression = linear testing approach, and we all know how it sucks.

Heracles87
05-03-2004, 06:36 PM
Basically a true dynamic campaign like AOD will make or break this game. I was suckered into buying SHII, thinking it would still be something with a static campaign. It wasnt. If this game wont have dynamic campaign it can sit on the store shelf where it will belong.

Mon Pavion
05-03-2004, 08:22 PM
GlobalExplorer,
Sorry dude, i wasnt directing that towards you, i was just quoting something in your post. I know from your previous post that you are not an "arcade folk". Regardless, I still dont see why a DC seems so far fetched nowadays from the stance of the developers. I mean, it is not like we are talking about some backwater company with no resorces. The SH3 team should be able to figure out how to add a DC. If that means the game will be buggy on release, well then it will be buggy. Bugs can be fixed. Look at PA for SH2. Here you just have a group of guys, and they make a mod for a game thats ten times better than the original game itself, AND it has a DC generator(more or less).

I just dont think saying that a DC is just "too hard" to do is a good enough reason not to include one. And Ubi has to have learned by now that simulators MUST come with DC's(IL-2,SH2, compared to IL-2FB, and SH1), so i cant see why in Gods name they would not support one being developed for SH3.

PS: Its kinda funny. I was just reading my orginal post where i quoted one sentence from your post, and how I kinda took that sentence completely out of context of your original post. It kinda does make you sound like arcade folk. ..HAHA...reminds me of american politics.

[This message was edited by TheGeneral_D on Mon May 03 2004 at 07:30 PM.]

Thomsen9U
05-04-2004, 04:19 AM
From an economic point of view it is realy hard for me to understand why the idea with a DC was dropped after their success in the first sims.

We all played the sims which were posted above and many more but than (I think it began with the Janes Combat series)it begann with that damned scripted versions. Ah, I remember: Panzer Commander from SSI and Panzer Elite from Psygonis where the first sims I played (worth to remember) that had scripted campaigns.

There must be some change in the marketing strategy the publishers are using. When I read here which games where taken as example for DC-games I suspect that the writers are a little bit older than the average arcade gamer which has still a "1" as his leading number for his age.
Me, showing (more or less) proudly a beginning "4" has a totall different taste to that "1" which game is prefererd and which not.

I think there is realy a different market for PC-sims. They are purchased (and not stolen!) from gamers which are in errrr.... medium sized ages and they want a DC, they want a manual and all these gimmicks they loved, when the were wearing not the "4", or "3". And they will play that game for years..

I never heard about a market study which gamers buy which products, but the dev-team should realy think about which the target group is for SH III....

Obviously ME! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Mahlzeit

Stefan
U 664
http://sgaertner.bei.t-online.de/henne.jpg

SailorSteve
05-04-2004, 08:33 AM
Some of us have to settle for a "5".

______________________________
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misha1967
05-04-2004, 10:28 AM
Well will it have a dynamic campaign or won't it?

I'm a bit leery of the "part scripted, part dynamic" talk, but I guess we'll have to wait and see, since the developers are obviously very disinterested in saying anything more specific than that, which is another thing that worries me a bit.

But at least this Silent Hunter sequel is still on its first dev team, so who knows?

One thing's for sure: If the Ubi team insists on replicating a disaster by once again ignoring the wants of the target audience, then there's going to be yet another SH crowding the bargain bin in record time.

I (and a million other people] told Ultimation over and over and over again that their baby, SHII, would drown five minutes out of the box the way they were planning to half-finish it, but oh no, they wouldn't listen, because they knew better.

Well, it sunk, and it sunk bad.

Deservedly so too. I DID break my promise never to buy it, but I waited until it hit the bozo bin and could be had for ten bucks (which didn't take all that long, unsurprisingly), because I was curious.

I guess I have a thing for trainwrecks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif, and boy oh boy was that EVER a trainwreck! At least I ended up not feeling that I'd wasted my $10, because the laugh was well worth it.

But all of that's only marginally important now. All I'm saying is:

Thanks, Ubi, for taking another chance at the franchise, because it has the potential to be really great and a lot of lesser companies would've just backed away slowly from the highway pileup that was the inept chimps' at Ultimation's last attempt.

But please, I implore you, focus a little less on getting the lighting effects on the Kaleün's cufflinks "just right", and focus a LOT more on making a game and a sim that somebody might actually want to own.

misha1967
05-04-2004, 10:43 AM
Oh, and as far as "Dynamic Campaigns are horribly difficult" goes, give me a break, please.

Surely you're not trying to tell me that something that the people that made AoD back in the dark ages of coding on stone tablets made work can't be replicated now?

Sure, it's work, but seriously.

By all means, I understand markets, so do go ahead and slap a bunch of scripted missions together for the ADD crowd, no point in NOT doing so and waving goodbye to their money, but don't tell me that the coders can't take time away from providing ambient lighting to the sub's head to slap together something that was old news back when Tetris was the greatest thing since sliced salami.

To claim such is laziness, pure laziness.

But heck, it's not MY investment that's going to sit around on store shelves for three weeks, then be sold in jewel cases for $9.99, so don't let me stop anybody from repeating a failed effort, expecting different results.

GlobalExplorer
05-04-2004, 12:25 PM
I don't believe a dc is difficult to implement, but very difficult to get it running. Just see how many bugs other games with advanced dynamic campaign (Falcon 4, RB2) had on release. This is a big obstacle which is easily overlooked.

AOD's type of campaign (which is still the best for a WWII german subsim, though not really a "dynamic campiagn" imo) should be actually pretty simple to implement, but it would result in a type of gameplay which will be very unpopular with the so called "arcade folk" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I.e no instant action, no instant gratification.

That's one of the many dilemmas we are faced with here. How do you create a good sim with accurate features and a dc, and still be able to be a big success with the kiddies?

I have tried to assess the situation, studied the developers profiles, the FAQ and tried to see the situation from the viewpoint of the development team. My impression is that they are very serious about what they are doing (look at the many historic details, physics engine, the number of "wargamers" in the team and the attempts to half-admit that a dynamic campaign should be implemented) They seem to acknowledge that they would like to do it if it can be done under the restrictions imposed by UBI.

It strikes me as a fact that they are in a very difficult situation, they are an "internal" development team from a former East block country, and the whole concept of this "internal team" cries out "outsourcing" from the very beginning. i.e. saving costs, and exerting more power over the development process and release date. They will probably have less freedom about their decision than a typical developer.

I want to imply that they can only implement a dc if they have backing from UBI if anything goes wrong, and right now it seems UBI is not interested.

For me there is hope. All parties are interested to avoid another disaster like SH2, which had so many problems, especially chaotic development (2 different teams), and broken A.I. ...

What I have seen so far is enough for me to be optimistic the core game will be very good, and if it is also moddable, the community will be able to fix it. I just don't see another solution because the game must be a commercial success, otherwise there will be no other games of this type imo.

And I don't remember who said it, but in the end we must be very thankful to UBI that the decided to fincance this game at all. I was very surprised when it was announced.

PS: No prob at all General_D!

GlobalExplorer
05-04-2004, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by misha1967:
Well will it have a dynamic campaign or won't it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am afraid the answer is no.

Egan2.0
05-04-2004, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GlobalExplorer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by misha1967:
Well will it have a dynamic campaign or won't it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am afraid the answer is no.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the fact is we can't say anything for sure just now, can we? The information in the FAQ could meen almost anything - It's far too soon to be saying a definate 'no.'

Indeed, the game could ship with the best damn campaign any of us have ever seen and we would all be happy little campers. Until the developers come and actually tell us for sure what they are wittering on about lets just wait.

misha1967
05-04-2004, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's one of the many dilemmas we are faced with here. How do you create a good sim with accurate features and a dc, and still be able to be a big success with the kiddies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed.

Of course, I still don't see very many of the kiddies veering away from Duke Nukem CXVII in order to buy a sub simulator, no matter HOW many mip-mapped seagulls it has, but there's no reason not to take it into account.

So throw a bunch of scripted instant gratification brightly colored boom-fests in there for the kids. It should keep them occupied until they go buy the latest Gundam or Pokemon 3D.

In the meantime, the rest of us will have something to replace AoD.

Everybody happy, no?

You see, it doesn't really matter one fig to me how good the core engine is if the gameplay is missing. Also, I'm not asking them to stick anything NEW in there, just revamping an idea that has been implemented successfully for years.

Oh, and speaking of bugs inevitably ensuing with DCs. It's not exactly my impression that SHII, in spite of being stripped of anything making it worth buying, was bug free.

Egan2.0
05-04-2004, 01:57 PM
With all the talk on this forum about seagulls i for one am going to be very disapointed if there aren't any... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kejotikk
05-04-2004, 02:46 PM
I don't think any kids will buy this game in the first place, but if they did and they think the dynamic campaign isn't arcadey enough for them they could just play the single or historic missions. AOD had this and there's no reason for SH3 not to have it also.

U-319
05-04-2004, 04:11 PM
Heck, i was a Kid when i got AOD And i loved playing it all night! I don't really think kids are just into scripted mission on any game.

unlike MOH, COD, RTCW were they they can continue to put out different scripted WW2 Shooter games. SH3 needs the element of unknowning whats ahead in missions.

scripted missions are good for WW2 shooter games and not good for Naval games.

CDragon
05-04-2004, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Egan2.0:
With all the talk on this forum about seagulls i for one am going to be very disapointed if there aren't any... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On one condition are seagulls acceptable:
If you can shoot survivors, you can shoot seagulls. And vice-versa.

HeibgesU999
05-04-2004, 08:09 PM
I drove my roommate in college crazy with Silent Service, and the "ticking" of the electric motors on high time compression.

radsov
05-05-2004, 06:08 AM
All I can say is that if previous games on older slower technology have managed it I don't see quite why SHIII can't do this apart from the publishers will not to implement it.

Going back a few years (OK quite a few years!) I remember being totally immersed in the Game "Elite" where you were a wandering trader amongst the stars, going from planet to planet trying to sell goods and make a profit. It was totally dynamic... OK I'll concede that this was probably a very simple random generator but it was far better than just scripted missions. There were actually scripted missions in Elite but these were offered to you and if you succeeded you gained some piece of kit or other. But you didn't have to complete them to play the game and progress. And this game sold bucket loads.

I'd say that today's computing power could not cope with modelling all the sea's with the amount of possible boats that could be out there. But that would not be required and as someone pointed out (can't remember if it was this forum or the one at subsim) when boats aren't in physical view they could be collapsed to either single points or simple boxes giving the overall dimensions of the ship (to aid any collision detection A.I. code).

Today's Wednesday, perhaps the latest updates to the web site will enlighten us more on what is probably the main issue for most of us..... I won't hold my breath, it's looking like we won't know for sure until the first review/ beta testers report back (if they've not signed any non disclosure agreements).

arzaal
05-18-2004, 09:01 AM
Right on, just wait for more info on this now... Light candles! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

misha1967
05-18-2004, 09:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>All I can say is that if previous games on older slower technology have managed it I don't see quite why SHIII can't do this apart from the publishers will not to implement it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You nailed it straight on the head there, my friend.

It's not that they "can't", anybody believing that are seriously deluded and oblivious to what has been done over and over in the past in spite of the claims that "it couldn't be done."

It's that they won't.

As to why, your guess is as good as mine. Maybe failure appeals to them?

Who knows?

Can't wait for this one to hit the bargain bin, however. It may suck garbanzo beans through an exceedingly narrow straw as a simulation, but it'll make for some excellent screensavers.

arzaal
05-18-2004, 09:48 AM
Dynamic campaign or not, they did a great job so far, so be polite. If building a dynamic campaign is that simple, they will do it. And you will be applauding again. Like I said: just wait for their reaction now. Also I bet it's not by reading that kind of posts that they will be wanting to discuss with us.
Regards http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

arzaal
05-18-2004, 09:48 AM
Dynamic campaign or not, they did a great job so far, so be polite. If building a dynamic campaign is that simple, they will do it. And you will be applauding again. Like I said: just wait for their reaction now. Also I bet it's not by reading that kind of posts that they will be wanting to discuss with us.
Regards http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

osros
05-18-2004, 10:07 AM
I dont see the big deal but I did not finish SHII. I played the missions at least completed the Primary mission then went out on my own on the way home, found more ships to sink. In fact I quit before I got home and was able to go on to the next mission.

Perhaps Im missing something but I dont mind so much missions to go on as long as there are targets on the way or after the mission just icing on the cake.

Going on free roaming patrols is fun too, with or without Im sure it will be fun.

SailorSteve
05-18-2004, 04:14 PM
The problem with the missions is that they are the same every time. Why run more than one career, or even play it more than once if it's always going to be the same?

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