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View Full Version : Can we have a discussion about balancing the mechanics?



Jossiwalez
02-20-2017, 12:45 AM
So here's the thing; I know there is a balancing patching coming in soon to fix GB and to correct some of the characters, but let's talk about some other mechanics.

Getting knocked off the map can be hilarious, especially if it's simply because you failed your GB and the counter-GB knocks you off. But ultimately, this game is about talent, reflexes, and knowing your enemy's kit. The SHEER VOLUME of areas to get instantly killed is outrageous and the locations for about HALF the 1v1 fights are on bridges or very near ledges so if you fail to prevent a single GB, you are punished by losing the match. Personally, I don't prefer to use the environment as much except to support a combo because I prefer to beat my opponent with skill rather than cheese sammiches. However, there are a LOT of players recently who rely completely on the overwhelming volume of insta-death mechanics and abuse it.

On to class kit mechanics. Most Warlords and Conqueror's that I play against don't initiate combat with anything but unblockables or free attacks off of simple blocks. NOT EVEN PARRIES. The Conqueror will start spinning his flail and sit back and wait for YOU to make an attempt and then riposte with a heavy attack that is FASTER than a light attack. 1/3 of the time I can't even react fast enough to block it after baiting the attack out of him and ABOVE ALL ELSE, he can block in that direction as he's attacking so attempting a side-step-attack doesn't work. Conqueror's are a perfect example of being OVERLY rewarded for simple blocks. There should be NO REWARD for a basic block in the game PERIOD.

Warlords on the other hand, they can play very similarly just being super defensive and can resort to ONLY INITIATING COMBAT WITH UNBLOCKABLE HEADBUTTS. Granted I can typically dodge it if it's the first thing that's coming my way but then they have the "all block" ability which can be followed into a headbutt which can be followed into a GB for a free heavy attack. Two classes that are almost completely untouchable if the player just sits back defensively. This sort of gameplay should NOT be an encouraged mechanic as it completely breaks the balancing beam of 1v1 or 2v2 combat. If this game ever goes into competitive tournaments (and I'm sure it will) we're looking at maybe 2-3 classes ever making it into the finals.

I've got a buddy who is Rep 4 Conq and Rep 2 WL and I almost NEVER see him lose in Brawls (2v2). He carries my *** to victory if I'm getting completely destroyed, which mostly only happens against defensive Conq/WL's and he explained why he's so good and it literally all came down to him finding a cheese mechanic and abusing it. Not only does he admit it, but it's a very clearly observable mechanic.

Wardens are pretty powerful counters to these classes simply because they have the fastest top and right attacks in the game. Initiating combat with a simple up strike granting block priority and being about 2x faster than any other classes standard top attack and their sweep attack (light+heavy) as a fairly fast right attack (left for the defender) give them a pretty decent advantage when trying to deal with these defensive types of players. However, that being said, it also puts them in a significant advantage over the rest of the classes especially if you can follow up any of your attacks with an unblockable charge and even have the ability to feint the charge into a GB.

I get that the classes are all supposed to have VERY different play styles but in it's current state, the amount of punishment Warlords and Conqueror's can dish out after simple blocks is completely broken.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying every Conq/WL plays this way. There are many who play very offensively and are sometimes rewarded for it. But in a high stakes match that's at 2-2 and it's a Conq/WL vs whatever, he's just going to sit back and do nothing while waiting for you to make the first move so he can punish you with it. It's boring, takes away from the overall experience, and ultimately unbalanced.

Now I'm also aware that complaining about something without providing a solution is poor etiquette so here's my suggestion.

When it comes to Conquerors: The charged flail mechanic could be a parry mechanic that is punished by more damage than a typical heavy attack. Meaning by landing the parry with a spinning flail the parry will automatically heavy attack for even more damage than a standard parry > GB > heavy attack. If the Conqueror blocks instead of parrys, the spinning flail is cancelled.

As for Warlord, the headbutt should cost a more stamina than it currently does considering how fast it strikes and the number of abilities he can combo with it, not to mention if he throws you into a corner you're looking at getting repeatedly headbutt AND getting your stamina drained.

Wardens aren't too bad, but I'd suggest increasing the stamina cost of their shoulder rush as it's currently spammable and also can be feint into a GB which is pretty powerful.

I know a lot of people complain about the Orochi but I tend to eat Orochi's for breakfast since I played them in the Betas and understand their kit. The only thing I can see to balance them without completely breaking them into a useless character is to make the initial backwards lunge from their Storm Rush cost stamina rather than just halting stamina regeneration. Most close matches I have against Orochi's tend to be the player spamming Storm Rush while back peddling and simply waiting for me to make a move. There are very few abilities that have the tracking mechanic to punish their storm rush initiation.

Now, I am anxiously awaiting the Valkyrie as she was probably the most fun to play in story mode. However, the typical trend amongst many of the games I play is if a class is too strong, they get over-nerfed (as the Valkyrie did when comparing the mechanical test or Alpha vs the Live product) or if a class is too weak they become overly powerful.

Jossiwalez
02-20-2017, 12:53 AM
I know this is a lot to read and before you ask, I play Warden/Orochi/Nobushi. Lately I've been leaning to Warden to deal with all the Conqueror's and Warlords but I'd like to play the Nobushi without getting 3 shot by Conquerors who don't even have to try.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 01:11 AM
Base mechanic and balance issues that need addressing before balance can even be considered and true char variety and usage may start to appear. Until then it's all but a dream

Also, usually in fighting games the other chars get buffed and nerfs are reserved for broken mechanics or exploits that were never meant to be in the game. So if they respect the sacred reward/ratio rule and keep to what is standard in the genre you shouldn't expect too many nerfs. Still, having said this I do think some "nerf" tweaks are needed in some base elements for the most highly used classes/chars and that from the precedent set for the warlord the warden shouldn't be able to bash cancel into guard break. It's really one or the other imho.

Anyway, timing tweaks for dodge and stance changes needed for some, base stamina and stamina costs need tweaking in others.

Don't want to sound harsh but ppl arguing in favor of the game being balanced as is are a bit delusional in my eyes. Either from lack of dueling experience (where you really take notice of the subtleties in mechanics and char characteristics or by not having enough experience or playtime in the genre or game itself.
There are obvious disadvantageous and balancing issues.

Most of the "cheese mechanics" you presented are fine in the mechanic department, their stamina cost and ability to be spammed before draining stamina and area control in certain map designs, namely duels, quickly become the issue with them.

Skill and timed input must always prevail over error spammed skills, specially considering map design and how much keeping control of distance and surroundings is for many chars. Abusable mechanics shouldn't be able to have low risk high reward traits, pure and simple.

Warden is a prime example in duel situation depending on your char. If he hits you and starts going into shoulder bash light attack/guard break combo you won't be able to interrupt unless you side dodge and tech break his possible incoming guard break or if he dodges to bash instantly interrupt the bash before he can overwhelming. Still he takes over control of the area pretty quickly and is able to spam this 4/5 times before draining his stamina while throwing attacks and guard breaks in between. Seems unfair in duel situations, will quickly drive you back and get you out of position. 2 times max 3 would seem fair to me.

As it is, base mechanics like timed dodge for an assassin (that has the most rewarding but least timing required side dodge) need tweaks, a true sensation of stamina economy needs to be introduced so skilled timed plays are beneficial instead of some way too harassing plays. All chars need to be actively able to block no matter the match up, not true and being discussed in a separate thread. Some match ups are impossible for certain "slower chars" and analog spin input spam needs to be punished by interrupting chains and follow ups, for the quickest classes mostly assassins, favoring skilled timed input to match reward and promote a fairer gamestyle.

This is what I believe is fair and makes sense and is very needed atm for the game to survive.

Fibrillous
02-20-2017, 01:14 AM
for conqueror, you can bait out his heavy swing with a parry. if he doesnt fall for parries, you can guardbreak him instead. You can use this mix up to get around his spinning flail. once you do that once, you can pressure him to prevent him from continuing to charge his heavy.

also, you say the conqueror can block in the direction he's attacking. That isn't true. He, like warden, has a counterattack that gives his heavy attack startups superior block. all that means is that he can let go of a charged flail during the parry window from his enemy and have it block the attack and then send the flail. you just need to bait his flail and go for a parry to counter him.


as for warlord, hit area block into headbutt/attacking combo is strong. he's another champ you really need to bait with parries. It's strong but it is beatable.


as for warden, I recommend actively holding an upward or left block while versing him. This makes it easier to block his attacks. Also, his light attack only has the superior block property on startup. You can't just swing away and be unhittable. It essentially means you have to time your light attack as an upward parry. Try not to use upward heavies against a warden as his counterattack is powerful.

INRAGEDPlatypus
02-20-2017, 01:27 AM
your post is pretty long lol but it contained a lot of good information

I agree with you that getting hit off the map is a problem. It's far too easy to knock an opponent off the ledge. and ive been in duels where a player will not move from a position the entire match just so he can fish for an easy insta-kill. mostly on those terrible narrow maps. its a goober noob thing to. Another thing i have noticed is that the PK's and Warlord will spam unblockable rushes fishing for map kills. its very annoying and requires 0 skill. spamming GB's is also a serious problem. There needs to be a cooldown introduced.

I think there needs to be something substantial introduced to prevent the toxic players from rage quitting matches. it often results in connection problems and disconnects for other players(Especially in dominion and deathmatch) and makes you play sub par computer bots. I think adding a 15 minute multiplayer ban for quitting active matches would really cut down on people being ******rs. I hate playing orochi's, so whats to stop me from quitting any match i get paired against them? Sure i dont get anything for the match but it takes 30 seconds to bring matchmaking right back up. I dont do this. i embarrass orochi's, but surely you can see the issue here.

as for the rest concerning character balance the only issue i have is the instantly repeatable GB attempts and the wardens shoulder rush chaining into his GB. THAT is bs. I play Kensei and have no issue ever dodging the headbutts of warlords or even the shoves of PK's. simple sidestep slash always hits. Those attacks are easily picked on by movements early. Thats also the same reason think the conqueror is fine. Sure he can charge his power attack in one guard and then attack from another but all his attacks are slow af. Feint your guard then attack where his guard isnt. im not sure how i feel about the superior blocking. That character in particular is just super defensive. calculated approaches can break the defense with GB and clever attacking patterns.

Jossiwalez
02-21-2017, 02:38 AM
The problem that I have with the CQ is the charged flail attack is faster than a light attack startup. the reward/effort there requires FAR more skill on the part of the victim than it does the CQ. Most of the CQ's I play against don't release it until they get the block off. Baiting it out is easier against noobie players but when the CQ knows better, he just waits for the block to connect before smashing into UB charge into another hit. The reward for playing defensive far exceeds playing proactively and it takes away from the fun of For Honor. Mechanics that reward so heavily for following the defensive meta with no effort ruin the experience for me :/