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View Full Version : Warden Shoulder charge is not op



taera21
02-18-2017, 11:15 PM
You can counter it by roll back with taping dodge button twice
To me if caught in 2 light shoulder charge another 2 light then you roll away.
The damage is like 20 % of you health
That is fair
Most opponent I played even rolled back after my first 2 light
It is not un-counterable
Most side dash light attack like orochi's zephyr slash will also get you counter the shoulder charge and the shoulder charge cancel to grab if you press light attack not to late after side dash

Panzer_Cmndr
02-18-2017, 11:39 PM
Main thing I hate about it, is how it is used to push you over a cliff, edge or into a hole.

Trustful_Whale
02-18-2017, 11:41 PM
Forcing you to spend stamina to escape a vortex that can be initiated from being hit by a single light attack, yeah nothing powerful about that.

Godsplitter1991
02-18-2017, 11:42 PM
All you have to do is time your side dodge right depending on the class. Assassins are more forgiving due to their mobility. Heavies have to be more precise. I main warlord and I have to be on my Ps and Qs with that side dodge. Funny thing is though, rarely ever do I get to fight wardens in duels. I see them more in brawl and 4v4s

DeLatv
02-18-2017, 11:49 PM
Shoulder charge is overpowred as ****. There is a problem where u can start shoulder charge, and make enemy guess 1/3, if they guess wrong, they get hit staggered into possition where warden is again shouldercharging you. Its dumb.

When im not in the mood, i just quit the battle when i see warden. There is no skill u can learn vs an ability ,that can stun you, if you dont doge, get guard breaked when u do dodge, and get parried if u dodge and attack... LoL.

If ur out of stamina, rest in piece. Only conqurer or Lawbringer is as terrifying as warden when ur out of stamina, but they are not as near scare when ur full of stamina.

Godsplitter1991
02-18-2017, 11:53 PM
Shoulder charge is overpowred as ****. There is a problem where u can start shoulder charge, and make enemy guess 1/3, if they guess wrong, they get hit staggered into possition where warden is again shouldercharging you. Its dumb.

When im not in the mood, i just quit the battle when i see warden. There is no skill u can learn vs an ability ,that can stun you, if you dont doge, get guard breaked when u do dodge, and get parried if u dodge and attack... LoL.

If ur out of stamina, rest in piece. Only conqurer or Lawbringer is as terrifying as warden when ur out of stamina, but they are not as near scare when ur full of stamina.

This why I hate doing brawls sometimes. Knowing that my teammate may possibly have a high sodium intake and rage quit if he gets shoulder charged. Very well then, I'll take the worthless bot and a 1v2 any day.

TrunksK
02-18-2017, 11:59 PM
You can counter it by roll back with taping dodge button twice
To me if caught in 2 light shoulder charge another 2 light then you roll away.
The damage is like 20 % of you health
That is fair
Most opponent I played even rolled back after my first 2 light
It is not un-counterable
Most side dash light attack like orochi's zephyr slash will also get you counter the shoulder charge and the shoulder charge cancel to grab if you press light attack not to late after side dash

Yes, but they'll just spam it til you're out of stamina and keep doing it because of the stab so as long as they spam it, you'll die eventually

Sh4lyir
02-19-2017, 12:03 AM
Side dodges do not work zzz.

Prior_Heahmund
02-19-2017, 12:23 AM
If you have to start a thread to defend it there is a chance it might be.

Te_Wheke
02-19-2017, 12:39 AM
Yes, but they'll just spam it til you're out of stamina and keep doing it because of the stab so as long as they spam it, you'll die eventually

This. It can be safely spammed without penalty since if you roll away since you can't counter attack in any way afterwards, and your opponent will use up their all their stamina rolling before the Warden runs out.

MrForz
02-19-2017, 12:47 AM
This is funny.

I've been a die-hard Warden since the betas and learned to feint routinely in my combos. When I heard of the shoulder-bash-cancelled-into-GB phenomenon, I believed it was an actual cancel, like a feint, and combo'ed my way by manually cancelling it. Then I realized that I didn't need to manually cancel it, and that's where it felt really freaking wrong.

Now, a GB won't work against someone who's rolling, but it will magnet through sideways dodges with the speed of the shoulder bash and that does feel quite cheap.

MangoUnclaimed
02-19-2017, 01:17 AM
It's completely broken. Free cancel into tracking GB forces your opponent to literally guess which of the two you'll do. Damage is obscenely high in two free light attacks and the a continued chain, there is almost no risk to the attack, since the punish window is tiny and only a few classes can even make use of it, and the only "counter" is to get lucky and roll away, using most of your stamina and leaving the Warden completely unharmed. It's risk free and high reward, and that's the definition of broken.

Special4ces Dom
02-19-2017, 01:54 AM
It's not the shoulder charge that's the issue, it's the damn cancel into guard break bullcrap.
You are literally forced into an unavoidable 50/50 situation that isn't about skill, it's about luck and guessing.

Varicose_Veins
02-19-2017, 02:04 AM
Yup, the vortex is the real issue, and if not addressed in the next patch, there will be people in duel/brawl giving up or we'll have a ridiculous proportion of people playing as Warden.

shinobikaze
02-19-2017, 03:34 AM
It's not the shoulder charge that's the issue, it's the damn cancel into guard break bullcrap.
You are literally forced into an unavoidable 50/50 situation that isn't about skill, it's about luck and guessing.

This right here. it's the cancelling into the GB that makes it too damn good. You can dodge the shoulder charge easy but they can react just by cancelling into gb which tracks you.

Redulz
02-19-2017, 03:49 AM
the warden was supposed to be a jack of all trades character can do everything but master at none. what he is instead is a character with no flaws the fastest attacks in the game (top light and zone) and the best charge in the game not only can it be canceled into a gb but it can be held to counter dodges. all while having good reach decent health and amazing confirms.

Jarnhand
02-19-2017, 11:04 AM
Warden is simply put borderline OP and by far TOP TIER class!
Anyone denying this is either blind to the fact or their are trying to hold on to their OP easy mode class as long as possible.

I know the above lines are a bit immature way to put it, but I think I can say this with high certainty. We would easily have seen it if Ubisfit had put up statistics for the classes, which are the most played. The most OP and easiest to win classes, are always the most played in a PvP game, this is something the community figure out very fast.

Supersomething
02-19-2017, 11:20 AM
Simple fix for this to get rid of this vortex attack would be to increase the stamina cost of that attack allowing you to do it twice, maybe three times if you gear for stam. Basically need to remove the ability to constantly do this with no downside.

MangoUnclaimed
02-19-2017, 12:19 PM
Simple fix for this to get rid of this vortex attack would be to increase the stamina cost of that attack allowing you to do it twice, maybe three times if you gear for stam. Basically need to remove the ability to constantly do this with no downside.

No. The simple fix for this is to remove the ability for a Warden to cancel his bash into a GB. No other bash gets that option, and it's insanely broken, relying entirely on guesswork to counter correctly.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 12:23 PM
Lol roll dodge? you can side dodge it, roll dodge will leave you at a tremendous disadvantage stamina economy wise

Thing is, if warlord couldn't have a headbutt cancel to guardbreak, why the hell should the warden have one?

Also, why the hell should he be able to spam it a total of 4/5 times while light attacking in between before draining his stamina?

Sure you can interrupt, if not hit light attack first or already up against a corner, sure you can side dodge, if the opponent doesn't cancel and guardbreaks you, sure you can tech break, but still and specially considereing duel maps it provides an amazing area control for him while costing close to no stamina considering the reward it provides.

Stamina cost needs to be tweaked and cancel to guard break removed for the precedent set for the warlord

Ryumanjisen
02-19-2017, 01:13 PM
I still don't get why do you people complain so much about a 50/50 (it's not even a true 50/50 vortex, but who cares, right?).

This kind of stuff is pretty usual in fighting games. And For Honor is, surprise surprise, a fighting game. If any, this game need more 50/50, in fact.

TournyMasterBot
02-19-2017, 06:29 PM
The shoulder charge isn't the problem. The problem is that the shoulder charge can be canceled into a guard break.

Sakinahz
02-19-2017, 06:37 PM
if it was a full manual cancel into guardbreak at least...But its not...Just tap square another time and voila!

KomradeHUN
02-19-2017, 07:33 PM
Interestingly I can deal with it and I main Warden too.
Maybe you should play him a bit to understand it better.

Gnarxly
02-19-2017, 07:45 PM
You can counter it by roll back with taping dodge button twice
To me if caught in 2 light shoulder charge another 2 light then you roll away.
The damage is like 20 % of you health
That is fair
Most opponent I played even rolled back after my first 2 light
It is not un-counterable
Most side dash light attack like orochi's zephyr slash will also get you counter the shoulder charge and the shoulder charge cancel to grab if you press light attack not to late after side dash

I think you could have formulated that better but yeah I agree there's a whole bunch of abilities/moves that counter shoulder bash or make it not work.

Vordred
02-19-2017, 07:54 PM
No. The simple fix for this is to remove the ability for a Warden to cancel his bash into a GB. No other bash gets that option, and it's insanely broken, relying entirely on guesswork to counter correctly.

thats not a simple fix though, because they the warden has no options, after his light attack all he can do is shoulder charge and heavy, both are countered by a dodge.

they they changed dodge so it didn't aviod every attack it would be ok, but as it currently does, it would make the warden completely unless.

now if dodge was changed so either dodging into a side attack resulted in a hit (unless you get a deflect) or they remove the dodge attacks, so you can only counter of a deflect, then i wouldn't mind the shoulder only, as i wouldn't be punsied every single time i used it.

Auztinito
02-19-2017, 08:18 PM
Yup, the vortex is the real issue, and if not addressed in the next patch, there will be people in duel/brawl giving up or we'll have a ridiculous proportion of people playing as Warden.

Vortex Attack?You mean Zone Attack?One of 2 fast moves that does half a HP bar(the little bars) damage & eats half of the Warden's stamina along with being blockable.Yeah,it's really overpowered.[/saracasm}

Also,shoulder charge is possibly the most avoiadable & useless move the Warden has.If your referring to Shoulder Mix-up that is a combo in the move list but even that is easily avoidable especially for Peacekeeper,Berzerker,Valkyrie,& Orochi who can hit you in mid charge with no way to block them unless they suck.

MrForz
02-19-2017, 08:23 PM
The vortex will have trouble hitting those able to attack while dodging like the assassins since you're going to try to stick to someone who's attacking, and because it's a side step, the simple version of the shoulder-bash will miss too.


Vortex Attack?You mean Zone Attack?One of 2 fast moves that does half a HP bar(the little bars) damage & eats half of the Warden's stamina along with being blockable.Yeah,it's really overpowered.[/saracasm}

Also,shoulder charge is possibly the most avoiadable & useless move the Warden has.If your referring to Shoulder Mix-up that is a combo in the move list but even that is easily avoidable especially for Peacekeeper,Berzerker,Valkyrie,& Orochi who can hit you in mid charge with no way to block them unless they suck.

Just... read the damn thread and the others too please...

kharm101
02-19-2017, 09:19 PM
It's not OP, it's one of the only actual offensive openers in this game. Most other classes have absolutely no effective ways attacking people (feints don't matter when you can option parry and guard break). Even then as many others have mentioned sufficiently high skill allows you to avoid it.

Other characters besides warden and warlord should have real offensive openers, we shouldn't further reinforce the 100% defense on reaction.

CoyoteXStarrk
02-19-2017, 09:28 PM
If you have to start a thread to defend it there is a chance it might be.

This^^^

Jordan5680
02-19-2017, 09:55 PM
If you have to start a thread to defend it there is a chance it might be.

exactly

Leon026
02-19-2017, 10:11 PM
It's not an Orochi, so clearly it must be balanced.

TTVPappusGaming
02-19-2017, 10:21 PM
Shoulder charge is overpowred as ****. There is a problem where u can start shoulder charge, and make enemy guess 1/3, if they guess wrong, they get hit staggered into possition where warden is again shouldercharging you. Its dumb.

When im not in the mood, i just quit the battle when i see warden. There is no skill u can learn vs an ability ,that can stun you, if you dont doge, get guard breaked when u do dodge, and get parried if u dodge and attack... LoL.

If ur out of stamina, rest in piece. Only conqurer or Lawbringer is as terrifying as warden when ur out of stamina, but they are not as near scare when ur full of stamina.

What about the warden guessing wrong? If you dodge attack and he was guessing dodge and wants to catch it with guardbreak? Ups he 1/3 himself. What if he guesses you eat it to the face? Ups again 1/3 himself. As long as you have a dodge attack it is dangerous for the warden too.

Redulz
02-20-2017, 03:28 AM
snip.

while the defender has to guess the warden can react which is the problem, the warden isnt locked into a choice. if the defender chooses to dodge attack you just choose not to cancel and do the extended charge which will beat it out.

teksuo1
02-20-2017, 03:36 AM
not gonna lie, it's pretty strong ; but without it the warden would be a very boring/bland class.
It's all they got going for them. They're pretty damn basic.

forrest0755
02-20-2017, 03:48 AM
I think something like that needs to be more than a one hit combo. Light attacks are too easy to land to initiate something like that after only one light attack.

Trustful_Whale
02-20-2017, 05:33 AM
considering he has no other moves? No, it's not.

Oh damn, you're right, he doesn't actually have the fastest light attack in the game that also crushes any other attack from the same angle, nor the best zone attack in the game that he can double arrow you with whenever he wants when you're not already in his vortex.
I totally forgot that he really has nothing, not even two best-in-slot attacks out of any class. Nevermind.

PinkFingerr
02-20-2017, 07:46 AM
You can counter it by roll back with taping dodge button twice
To me if caught in 2 light shoulder charge another 2 light then you roll away.
The damage is like 20 % of you health
That is fair
Most opponent I played even rolled back after my first 2 light
It is not un-counterable
Most side dash light attack like orochi's zephyr slash will also get you counter the shoulder charge and the shoulder charge cancel to grab if you press light attack not to late after side dash


I main Zerker and I think warden's charge is not OP also. Coz every classes can side dodge atk when warden used charge.

TatoRezo
02-20-2017, 08:49 AM
Most side dash light attack like orochi's zephyr slash will also get you counter the shoulder charge and the shoulder charge cancel to grab if you press light attack not to late after side dash

The thingi s that he can cancel the shoulder bash into a GB so if you dash on the side u get punished. Best way is still to roll backwards.

Gnarxly
02-20-2017, 09:57 AM
Oh damn, you're right, he doesn't actually have the fastest light attack in the game that also crushes any other attack from the same angle, nor the best zone attack in the game that he can double arrow you with whenever he wants when you're not already in his vortex.
I totally forgot that he really has nothing, not even two best-in-slot attacks out of any class. Nevermind.

What are you smoking? Planty of classes with faster light attacks.
You mean the overhead Crushing Counterstrike? Keep your block up against warden? Everything else is slow.
So what are we left with than... shoulder bash. Easy to avoid if you expect it. And is countered by many other attacks and abilities like super armor. Some classese can just heavy punish you if you do that. Especially those with long range attacks. I'm guessing it's short range assassins who cry the most, after they fail with their spam and get cought pants down.

So what's next... A zone attack that can take over 50% of stamina bar and does low damage. And a fast spinning heavy+light combo that always comes from the left and takes about 80% of full stamina bar and does relatively low damage. These two are the last skills a warden wants to rely on, because if you do you will not live long against any competent player.

Tbh it sounds to me some of you need to play warden and learn from the other side.

awolcz
02-20-2017, 10:07 AM
Light + Shoulder bash vortex is just noob stomper. It awlays works for me against noobs, but when I play agains experienced players, they always:
1) Cancel my shoulder bash by light attack
2) Use Counter GB to counter stun after shoulder bash
3) Just dodge and punish me

I also play against warden which try to get me in the vortex and all 3 points above work flawlessly. You guys should get good in the game before complaining. Also, do not forget that shoulder bash is the only special move on Warden. What else he got? Basically nothing, except fast top light attack. Just keep your guard up when playing against warden. it is just block / parry class with shoulder bash. Nothing more. All other classes have like 3 or 4 special moves, and also a lot of infinite chains.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 10:25 AM
The good old "git gud"

By precedent set for the warlord, the warden shoulder bash cancel into guard break shouldn't be in game even if your point are valid.

Which they are, but would also have been with the warlord hadn't his ability to cancel been removed.

Jeb22
02-20-2017, 10:52 AM
I mean, if you take away the ability to shoulder charge continuously (mix up, GB cancel, etc), the result would be a class that is just a very basic quintessential example of the For Honor combat system. There would be no reason to take it out of tutorials or story mode. A class is suppose to have mechanics that can be difficult to adapt to, otherwise, what's the point? Also, not every class is suppose to do well in every matchup; there are classes that can run circles around a Warden who tries to should charge (pun intended).

I'm pretty sure if some people here had their way, Warden would just be a stale bottom feeder class whose sole purpose would be to be predictable and killed to bolster others K/D ratio. Warden is fine.

Scr4pMan
02-20-2017, 10:34 PM
Hrmmh you know. I think the warden is fair. Sure he has allot of pro's going for him. Reach and just overall fighting potentiall is great. But it's damage is rather fair. Now the hole shoulder bash thing, (vortex put aside). Is indeed somewhat... Painfull.

The biggest issue I have with this abillity is that as a Shugoki you have a 1 out of 5 to actually dodge it depending on the timing. Or.. you get in this endless loop of death. For a kensei you can attack in your dodge so the vortex lock on is cancelled. But... if you guessed wrong you'll get parried and it will start all over again.

I think why the community have much hate and love for the warden is that he feels ballanced, seems ballanced but has allot of ''OP'' stuf going for him. It's because he's such a fine jack of all trades that allot strugle againts him. There is little room for error depending on the player. With the shoulder bash added a big fat guy like Shugoki if he does get into the hole loop thing to begin with. Wich can verry well happen. It'l be extremelly tough to deall with. Especially if the warden keeps up his pressure.

For another ballanced character like Kensei wich has insane tactic potentiall. It's a little less hard but still extremelly riskfull. This style of play forces you by what many say '' To roll backwards.'' This is perhaps a death sentance for Shugoki and could be for others depending how much the warden drained you or you, yourself from a previous fight.


So the reall question is. What can be done about this? I'd say perhaps pushing a limitation upon the warden from abusing it? Sure it gives perhaps the only offensive possibillity for them. Though Kensei has their dodge and forward attack. Doesn't the warden have it's zone attack engage and lock of move in attack to engage with? Then comes the question what keeps the warden going then?

That is a difficult one to answer since I don't play warden. But I'd say generall ways of fighting. Still if it gets limited and the vortex gets broken of. I'd say that the limit still SHOULD! give the warden for ofensive potentiall. But it'l be made so it is used more wiselly. Who knows perhaps it gets intertwined in a combo to limit it?

We can only see... But for a main shugoki on 1v1... It is like walking up to an executioner at times. There... is no way really out of it... If there is. It takes some serious calm mind to do so. Let alone timing in the dodge for how fat he is.

Lets hope they find a compromisable way of still holding on to the shoulder bash. But not that it is crazilly spamable. Unlike shugoki and even the Warlord wich is slower. While conq's is easier to dodge for he has no stagger inbetween and vortex.

Oh and PS: If someon has a way besides the 1/5 dodge for Shugoki or the roll back that leads to not having stamina. I welcome it! Just the stagerring makes it extremelly hard to get out of. That and being fat in a dodge with vortex.