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View Full Version : I give up. Orochi is BS. I admit it.



CoyoteXStarrk
02-18-2017, 11:18 AM
I have tried SO hard this past week to play devils advocate as to why Orochi was okay the way he is.


But he just isn't.


- The sheer amount of scrubs who spam him. Every match there is at LEAST 2.

- How easy he is to use. He is SO damn easy to use that it is HILARIOUS he has a hard rating.

- The speed at which he attacks combined with his speed of changing angles is a ridiculous combination that is borderline impossible to 100% defend

- His damage relative to his speed is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. He hits WAY too hard for how fast he is.



I give up. Ubisoft you NEED to do SOMETHING about him. I don't care what at this point. But the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.

DrExtrem
02-18-2017, 11:28 AM
Well. Their plan is, to make the Valkyrie the next light spammer. I guess that means, that they are ok with attacks so fast, that only a bot can block them.
And its not only the orochi. The nobushi fits in the same category, just like the zerker.

And I liked ger so much.

I guess this game centers around staggering players to death.

Kylar.Z
02-18-2017, 11:28 AM
Please teach me how, because a good warden just rips me apart as orochi.

Mollikka_22
02-18-2017, 11:30 AM
I agree.

I was just in a match and got 2 shotted by an orochi and the attacks were incredibly fast
I play as valkyrie myself and itīs just ridicilous how huge the balance difference is between those two characters.
With valkyrie you have to make like 12 light attacks which are slow as **** to kill someone.

Love this game but if the balance issues are not gonna be fixed I think the lifeline of this game wonīt be a long one. (hope that wont happen though)

Or then youīll only see games full of Orochi (or similar balance characters) fighting against eachothers and thatīll also suck the life out of this game.

Tocki92
02-18-2017, 11:30 AM
I don't quite get the frustration.
I main shugoki and those little rats are pretty easy to block for me. Left right left right up..., isn't that hard to block. Then once guard break, 1/4 hp is fine with right click.
So low life that I two hit them with my heavy attack.

Quinn1987
02-18-2017, 11:32 AM
The only class I see as truly being OP at the moment is Orochi.. The way he spins is just un-playable.

Kylar.Z
02-18-2017, 11:39 AM
The only class I see as truly being OP at the moment is Orochi.. The way he spins is just un-playable.

spin?

Gensui.Musashi
02-18-2017, 11:39 AM
git gud then

DrExtrem
02-18-2017, 11:42 AM
I don't quite get the frustration.
I main shugoki and those little rats are pretty easy to block for me. Left right left right up..., isn't that hard to block. Then once guard break, 1/4 hp is fine with right click.
So low life that I two hit them with my heavy attack.

You have the health pool, to outlive and tolerate errors. Combined with a low level spammer and it is clear, that you can beat them. If the orochi you are facing can't counter he, he is toast. Remember, that your strikes hit hard and that your lights are uninterruptable and surprisingly fast.

If the orochi uses crossing slashes and mixes them up with lightning strikes and zephyr slash, he gets very powerful. If he manages to get reflect, a gb is possible.

CoyoteXStarrk
02-18-2017, 11:43 AM
Please teach me how, because a good warden just rips me apart as orochi.

A "good warden" is essentially just a button spamming child.


Hard to counter that.

CoyoteXStarrk
02-18-2017, 11:45 AM
I don't quite get the frustration.
I main shugoki and those little rats are pretty easy to block for me. Left right left right up..., isn't that hard to block. Then once guard break, 1/4 hp is fine with right click.
So low life that I two hit them with my heavy attack.

I can say right now with 100% confidence that you are 100% full of crap.

I have proven in duels with friends that the Shugoki is LITERALLY incapable of switching guards fast enough to block an Orochi combo.

Thats not an OPINION. That is a FACT. Orochi can switch switch his attack side quicker than Shugoki can switch his Blocking side.

Take your BS elsewhere

Waynedetta40k
02-18-2017, 11:47 AM
I wonder which faction will be the one which is right
Will it be the "you can easylie block everything and never attack" Faction
or
Everything hits to fast and to hard i cant do **** about it faction

I really wonder...

Brave_Thunder
02-18-2017, 11:51 AM
I played orochi estensively till the beta,now I have him at prestige 1.His hard difficult is justifyed by how hard is to do a full combo,or deflect/ parry any attack with his low hp.But I admit that very few orochi play that way.While you can counter the spammers in your face,those that simply wait till you attack just to get a free side light are true cancer.I faced someone that just emoted for 2 minutes when I waited for him to attack,then left out of frustration.I think that increasing the stamina used by attacks over the third(many combos are made by 3 attacks) and side attacks will solve this,since yet orochi has problems with energy.

As a side question,I'm playng kensei recently...anyone feels that he's basically an orochi with a longer weapon?Why people cry about orochi and not against someone that can exactly play like him,but with more range?

CoyoteXStarrk
02-18-2017, 11:51 AM
I wonder which faction will be the one which is right
Will it be the "you can easylie block everything and never attack" Faction
or
Everything hits to fast and to hard i cant do **** about it faction

I really wonder...

In the end it will be the "We are Ubisoft and we don't give a watery fart about your opinion" faction that reigns supreme.


They will do whatever the hell they want. I just hope they pay attention to their own stats.

DrExtrem
02-18-2017, 11:51 AM
You are staggered after being hit by an attack. While staggered, the hero can not react to your input and your guard is basically broken.
After you recover from the hit, you have a 33% chance to guess the new attack vector. Since I am not gifted with the third eye and by crystal ball is on my desk at work, I am left with ... luck. What can I say ... Fortuna hates me.

DrExtrem
02-18-2017, 11:56 AM
I played orochi estensively till the beta,now I have him at prestige 1.His hard difficult is justifyed by how hard is to do a full combo,or deflect/ parry any attack with his low hp.But I admit that very few orochi play that way.While you can counter the spammers in your face,those that simply wait till you attack just to get a free side light are true cancer.I faced someone that just emoted for 2 minutes when I waited for him to attack,then left out of frustration.I think that increasing the stamina used by attacks over the third(many combos are made by 3 attacks) and side attacks will solve this,since yet orochi has problems with energy.

As a side question,I'm playng kensei recently...anyone feels that he's basically an orochi with a longer weapon?Why people cry about orochi and not against someone that can exactly play like him,but with more range?

The kensao is fast and powerful. His heavies and lights are faster and deal more damage, than even the wardens do. Yes ... the wardens top heavy is faster but the follow up time is way bigger. The kensais dps should be higher. Add to it, that the kensai can punish a gb with a guaranteed overhead heavy - warden and raider are too slow.

Brave_Thunder
02-18-2017, 12:16 PM
The kensao is fast and powerful. His heavies and lights are faster and deal more damage, than even the wardens do. Yes ... the wardens top heavy is faster but the follow up time is way bigger. The kensais dps should be higher. Add to it, that the kensai can punish a gb with a guaranteed overhead heavy - warden and raider are too slow.

I would like to have some info for every hero,so that they can be compared,at least in damage and hp...the only thing I can talk about is that the overhead heavy after a Gb can be effective only if you stun people against a wall,otherwise they can dodge it.

CryFree410
02-18-2017, 12:18 PM
I use kensei and have zero trouble with any character that I face if you all cant beat them you need more practice at this point telegraph moves are easy to spot and block yall suck bad....

iHunny
02-18-2017, 12:34 PM
The kensao is fast and powerful. His heavies and lights are faster and deal more damage, than even the wardens do. Yes ... the wardens top heavy is faster but the follow up time is way bigger. The kensais dps should be higher. Add to it, that the kensai can punish a gb with a guaranteed overhead heavy - warden and raider are too slow.

Dude, play the damn Kensei befor you speak. Kenseis attacks are slower then teh Wardens and Raiders. Hes attacks is one of the slowest attacks in the game. Get ur facts down befor you write.

Zv1k0
02-18-2017, 12:36 PM
Omg stop with this Orochi op class ffs. Its you that needs practice not Orochi nerfs. Belive me...his storm rush and zephyr slash are soooo easy to parry. Once you parry him you can punish him soo hard. His fast light attacks? Just practice fast changes of your guard. Its blockable with pretty much every class. And since his most basic combo is top double light you can predict it. Every single Orochi will go for that move and its easily parriable as well. So stop whining and learn how to play against this kind of characters and stop with OP BS.

DrExtrem
02-18-2017, 12:39 PM
I would like to have some info for every hero,so that they can be compared,at least in damage and hp...the only thing I can talk about is that the overhead heavy after a Gb can be effective only if you stun people against a wall,otherwise they can dodge it.

I have to correct myself. The video was updated - the kensai deals a bit less dmg with his heavies but the can hit from any direction after a gb.
Nonetheless, his dps is very good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tvp5ca_FCw

Check this out. Orochi and nobusbi are my favs.

ZechsMarquizy
02-18-2017, 12:41 PM
I have tried SO hard this past week to play devils advocate as to why Orochi was okay the way he is.


But he just isn't.


- The sheer amount of scrubs who spam him. Every match there is at LEAST 2.

- How easy he is to use. He is SO damn easy to use that it is HILARIOUS he has a hard rating.

- The speed at which he attacks combined with his speed of changing angles is a ridiculous combination that is borderline impossible to 100% defend

- His damage relative to his speed is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. He hits WAY too hard for how fast he is.



I give up. Ubisoft you NEED to do SOMETHING about him. I don't care what at this point. But the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.

Every time I see a post by you CoyoteXStarrk you are raging, insulting, or just flat out rude to any and everyone who disagrees with you, "Why so serious?"

A "good warden" is essentially just a button spamming child.


Hard to counter that.

Perfect Example^

Btw I main a Warden, and just so YOU know sir good warden's don't spam buttons.... I won't bother attempting to enlighten you any further but LOL that post in particular made me pucker up hahaha.



Oh and BTW ~ claiming that Orochi is a problem when we have WAY more important issues to deal with is just you raging cause you got rekt, then you come here and vent your rage hoping people will respond so you can make those people a target for you to vent said RAGE. This is not the proper place for that, and eventually its just going to get you banned. Please take this as a friendly wake up call and vent your frustrations in an appropriate manner.

Lokeshusse
02-18-2017, 12:44 PM
git gud then

git gud?

Here's a thought: You might wanna go to that place.. ah what's it called.. oh yea.. school.

Ragnar---
02-18-2017, 12:49 PM
It would be a sad day when we find out the developers balance the game based on suggestions from here. We'd all be running around having a pillow fight if they did.

ZechsMarquizy
02-18-2017, 12:49 PM
git gud?

Here's a thought: You might wanna go to that place.. ah what's it called.. oh yea.. school.

Hot!

Gensui.Musashi
02-18-2017, 12:52 PM
i dont like to repeat myself but git gud

Derity
02-18-2017, 12:53 PM
The fact is players will always be attracted to the classes that they have success with.

Players stick to Orochi because they have success with Orochi.

Orochi has success because Orochi is by default one of the fastest classes in the game.

I've said it from the first ever Alpha, speed will always win in this game due to the way that blocking and parrying works in this game. It doesn't matter how much they patch the game, whichever classes are the fastest, will always be the best.

If you want to play competitively in For Honor, pick one of the fastest classes in the game. If you want to play for fun, pick something else. The only classes that are kind of an exception, are Conqueror and Warlord, they are quite strong too because they can manipulate the blocking system to auto block attacks.

r0u9hneck
02-18-2017, 01:08 PM
Omg stop with this Orochi op class ffs. Its you that needs practice not Orochi nerfs. Belive me...his storm rush and zephyr slash are soooo easy to parry. Once you parry him you can punish him soo hard. His fast light attacks? Just practice fast changes of your guard. Its blockable with pretty much every class. And since his most basic combo is top double light you can predict it. Every single Orochi will go for that move and its easily parriable as well. So stop whining and learn how to play against this kind of characters and stop with OP BS.

Exactly. This whole thread is pure bs and hate by someone who just wont gid gud.
I'm completly destroying orochis most of the time with my warden. And I'm destroying wardens with my orochi. When I don't, then it's just because I didn't concentrate enough. Or the enemy is just better. And this guy here, srsly? It's like you want to call every class op as long as it's not yours. Maybe you really wanna consider to gid teh f gud?

This game actually is pretty good balanced, but a few people believe it's not, just because Ubisoft cannot balance player skill.

xW11nD
02-18-2017, 01:13 PM
The fact is players will always be attracted to the classes that they have success with.

Players stick to Orochi because they have success with Orochi.

Orochi has success because Orochi is by default one of the fastest classes in the game.

I've said it from the first ever Alpha, speed will always win in this game due to the way that blocking and parrying works in this game. It doesn't matter how much they patch the game, whichever classes are the fastest, will always be the best.

If you want to play competitively in For Honor, pick one of the fastest classes in the game. If you want to play for fun, pick something else. The only classes that are kind of an exception, are Conqueror and Warlord, they are quite strong too because they can manipulate the blocking system to auto block attacks.

I mean idk if you have seen any high tier orochis but Orochi is not good in high tier. Easily counterable. if then enemy has a good defense, you run out of a lot of options which you must result to counter attacking / feints etc.

r0u9hneck
02-18-2017, 01:18 PM
I mean idk if you have seen any high tier orochis but Orochi is not good in high tier. Easily counterable. if then enemy has a good defense, you run out of a lot of options which you must result to counter attacking / feints etc.

Exactly. That's actually the only argument I'd accept. I think the orochi is even a bit weak in higher tiers. But overall, the game's quite balanced (again, at higher tiers). But the question is, should Ubisoft balance heroes for the higher or lower tiers? I mean, Noobs wont stay Noobs as long as they don't give up. And I'm saying "Noobs" like beginners. I don't consider myself a pro, but I guess I got a hang on this game quite fast, because its just my kind of game. And I already figured that the orochi isn't that bad really.

PotatoLord47
02-18-2017, 01:19 PM
I mean idk if you have seen any high tier orochis but Orochi is not good in high tier. Easily counterable. if then enemy has a good defense, you run out of a lot of options which you must result to counter attacking / feints etc.

Aye, playin him against experienced ones is basically mind games.

r0u9hneck
02-18-2017, 01:19 PM
I mean idk if you have seen any high tier orochis but Orochi is not good in high tier. Easily counterable. if then enemy has a good defense, you run out of a lot of options which you must result to counter attacking / feints etc.

Exactly. That's actually the only argument I'd accept. I think the orochi is even a bit weak in higher tiers. But overall, the game's quite balanced (again, at higher tiers). But the question is, should Ubisoft balance heroes for the higher or lower tiers? I mean, Noobs wont stay Noobs as long as they don't give up. And I'm saying "Noobs" like beginners. I don't consider myself a pro, but I guess I got a hang on this game quite fast, because its just my kind of game. And I already figured that the orochi isn't that bad really.

Tocki92
02-18-2017, 01:34 PM
I can say right now with 100% confidence that you are 100% full of crap.

I have proven in duels with friends that the Shugoki is LITERALLY incapable of switching guards fast enough to block an Orochi combo.

Thats not an OPINION. That is a FACT. Orochi can switch switch his attack side quicker than Shugoki can switch his Blocking side.

Take your BS elsewhere

What the **** is wrong with you haha:)
I would say learn to play with shugoki, played enough duels and don't have any trouble.

JayyRupp
02-18-2017, 01:34 PM
I have tried SO hard this past week to play devils advocate as to why Orochi was okay the way he is.


But he just isn't.


- The sheer amount of scrubs who spam him. Every match there is at LEAST 2.

- How easy he is to use. He is SO damn easy to use that it is HILARIOUS he has a hard rating.

- The speed at which he attacks combined with his speed of changing angles is a ridiculous combination that is borderline impossible to 100% defend

- His damage relative to his speed is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. He hits WAY too hard for how fast he is.



I give up. Ubisoft you NEED to do SOMETHING about him. I don't care what at this point. But the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.

Calling for nerfs on day 4....in true scrub fashion. Bravo.
****ing ridiculous.

JayyRupp
02-18-2017, 01:50 PM
Well. Their plan is, to make the Valkyrie the next light spammer. I guess that means, that they are ok with attacks so fast, that only a bot can block them.
And its not only the orochi. The nobushi fits in the same category, just like the zerker.

And I liked ger so much.

I guess this game centers around staggering players to death.

Why not just name the whole cast? The problem is between your TV and chair.
All of you tweens need to control your emotions and stop crying for nerfs on day 4.

Fuzzybutts
02-18-2017, 01:53 PM
I won't call Orochi Op but holy **** if it isn't the least fun hero to play against I have no clue wtf is.

Having even played Orochi before I can agree it is the lowest skill-cap to pick up and be successful with, even lower than Nobushi (which at least requires learning how to fake out heavy attacks into kicks and using hidden stance for mind games, etc.) I managed to win a good 14 games in a row by spinning and left clicking back and forth. The class literally devolves For Honor into a two-button fighting game and happens to just be completely anti-fun to play versus.

Even if he isn't overpowering one cannot help but admit they are a ***** to play against.

Zv1k0
02-18-2017, 02:11 PM
I won't call Orochi Op but holy **** if it isn't the least fun hero to play against I have no clue wtf is.

Having even played Orochi before I can agree it is the lowest skill-cap to pick up and be successful with, even lower than Nobushi (which at least requires learning how to fake out heavy attacks into kicks and using hidden stance for mind games, etc.) I managed to win a good 14 games in a row by spinning and left clicking back and forth. The class literally devolves For Honor into a two-button fighting game and happens to just be completely anti-fun to play versus.

Even if he isn't overpowering one cannot help but admit they are a ***** to play against.

Tbh i would much rather play against Orochi than Conqueror for example. And just because it becomes two-button fighting match you know what to expect and counter it. But some Orochis are really good with all the feints so the are very hard to parry but still beatable. You cant be to agressive on Orochi or any assassin really.

Fuzzybutts
02-18-2017, 02:16 PM
Tbh i would much rather play against Orochi than Conqueror for example. And just because it becomes two-button fighting match you know what to expect and counter it. But some Orochis are really good with all the feints so the are very hard to parry but still beatable. You cant be to agressive on Orochi or any assassin really.

The lack of skill cap compared to other classes is admittably the most frustrating part. Orochi is too easy to be massively successful with it feels, I say this with mid-tier play experience as it. It feels lie I'm putting far less thought or input into my wins than I am with other heroes.

Derity
02-18-2017, 02:16 PM
I've said it too many times now, Dashing needs to have a cost.

KJ25
02-18-2017, 02:26 PM
A "good warden" is essentially just a button spamming child.


Hard to counter that.

Shows how little experience you have with the character. A "good warden" has to be smart about their shoulder bash mix-up, taking care to manage stamina while not being simply evaded and taking a hit. Not to mention baiting with feints and capitalizing with crushing counter strike, which is much harder to pull off than a parry mind you. If you can't beat a warden "button mashing" light attacks and shoulder bash, the dodge button would like to have a word with you.

Zv1k0
02-18-2017, 02:28 PM
The lack of skill cap compared to other classes is admittably the most frustrating part. Orochi is too easy to be massively successful with it feels, I say this with mid-tier play experience as it. It feels lie I'm putting far less thought or input into my wins than I am with other heroes.

Thats because people dont know hot to counter Orochi in this tier. SImply as that. Only thing i would change on Orochi is maybe reduce his top light combo damage for just a little bit, and stamina cost for his dashes to be little higher but definitely not his quickness and mobility. Assassins are supposed to be quick.

Fuzzybutts
02-18-2017, 02:34 PM
Thats because people dont know hot to counter Orochi in this tier. SImply as that. Only thing i would change on Orochi is maybe reduce his top light combo damage for just a little bit, and stamina cost for his dashes to be little higher but definitely not his quickness and mobility. Assassins are supposed to be quick.

That and the overhead heavy after guard break is downright rediculous, it does more damage than some unblockables that need careful timing and chains to be use (SEE: Lawbringer chains/Raiders L+R). Keep in mind that this overhead heavy is -GUARANTEED- after every guard break and the only hero able to punish so heavily post gb with an undodgeable/blockable is the heavy shugoki.

B3N--
02-18-2017, 02:58 PM
Thats because people dont know hot to counter Orochi in this tier. SImply as that. Only thing i would change on Orochi is maybe reduce his top light combo damage for just a little bit, and stamina cost for his dashes to be little higher but definitely not his quickness and mobility. Assassins are supposed to be quick.



How to counter an orochi or berzerk who's are using the side dash and light attack spam? If you don't use on of those class, rolling away !! and you think its a counter?

GB during the dash? i would but i'm "stun"



That totally break the metagame, because its easy to do and you got high reward by doing this, so if ubisoft is doing nothing about that, we will see more and more players using those cheap tactics to win, this combined with the "approximative" matchmaking, this game sounds like a joke at the moment.


And please separate the matchmaking quieue into 2 categories, one for the pickup and one for the premade.

Knight_Gregor
02-19-2017, 06:30 AM
Shows how little experience you have with the character. A "good warden" has to be smart about their shoulder bash mix-up, taking care to manage stamina while not being simply evaded and taking a hit. Not to mention baiting with feints and capitalizing with crushing counter strike, which is much harder to pull off than a parry mind you. If you can't beat a warden "button mashing" light attacks and shoulder bash, the dodge button would like to have a word with you.

At this point, you've got to be pretty delusional to think that warden isn't in any way, shape, or form: broken. You're fooling yourself if you think you're somehow "Working extra hard," or have "Elite tier mad skills." Anyone can plainly see what top level wardens are doing to trap enemies.

On topic - I wish I had an answer for fighting Orochi. The best advice I can give is to try not to overly-punish them for their mistakes. Stick and move, wait for them to screw up again. Maybe that's only because conqueror is forced to play that way against everyone with the state of feints and parries.

Swiftstrike76
02-19-2017, 06:37 AM
If its not him its the peacekeepers they can side step faster.
If your playing other players there is always someone that's going to have the reflexes of a mutent spidy and own you. Take a break get raped by brutal lvl 3 bots for practice and give it another go.
Mix up your attacks, doing the same pattern in match 2 as 1 there learn the routine.

Masked_Yurei
02-19-2017, 06:41 AM
Tip: don't play the game.


The only reasonable way to counter meta.

Th1ccD1ckR1ck
02-19-2017, 06:51 AM
Omg stop with this Orochi op class ffs. Its you that needs practice not Orochi nerfs. Belive me...his storm rush and zephyr slash are soooo easy to parry. Once you parry him you can punish him soo hard. His fast light attacks? Just practice fast changes of your guard. Its blockable with pretty much every class. And since his most basic combo is top double light you can predict it. Every single Orochi will go for that move and its easily parriable as well. So stop whining and learn how to play against this kind of characters and stop with OP BS.

Not everyone has the reflexes of a reptile hopped up on meth and adderall like you. Some of us are older, some of us have rust.

Or maybe some people just run auto-block programs?

CrusadingNoble
02-19-2017, 09:42 AM
A "good warden" is essentially just a button spamming child.


Hard to counter that.

Same whiner from the Bleach forums. How about you show us a video of you mashing buttons on Warden and owning?

zkorejo
02-19-2017, 09:50 AM
OP speaks the truth. There's no denying Orochi is overpowered.

dave2k12
02-19-2017, 09:59 AM
I disagree sorry I think he's ok I have never played as him but I have played against him I'm not saying he's the most balanced class in the game but he's not op and op is such a broad statement and depends on the player playing him like ok he's a class you may or may not be able to beat me personally have no problem with him but when there's a good player playing him if I make a mistake I get decimated and to me I believe that's good since that's the way it should be say he fakes me at the start I go for the attack and I miss and he completely wrecks me that's my fault like and he is quite squishy and against people spamming just wait until there stamina has depleted then punish him so to me no he's not op he's one of the easier ones for me to fight

Mothsinger
02-19-2017, 10:00 AM
Lol, this became from hating Orochi to hating Warden suddenly. I personally find Warden harder to deal with because Orochi has an even more limited moveset and is pretty easy to figure out. For the Warden, he'll shoulderbash eventually, just dodge and punish.

However, here's a question. Did you guys ever play a custom match against lvl3 bots? Do that, with Orochi, Warden, Peacekeeper, whatever. You'll notice something pretty important. You'll be perfectly able to change guards in time and block their fast spam, counter guardbreaks, have your parry timing down. Why?

Because the connection sucks.

These characters are not as fast as you think, it's simple lag. The game has a base ping of around 100ms, as it was proven by this video.
I highly recommend watching it, even when you're having a very good connection in your area.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAU5bIalbnc

EothK
02-19-2017, 10:07 AM
In essence he might not be OP.

But we are talking about a game that needs to appeal to a wide range of players to remain valid.
On high level Orochi can be beaten by just about anyone when the other player is simply more skilled. Parrying, blocking his (predictable) moves etc.

But the thing is 70% of the players will never get to that level. Which is fine, cause when everyone plays mediocre the game should still be fun.
This is where Orochi is the biggest problem imho. People with low mediocre skill can be deadly to anyone of same (or even bit higher) level of skill with Orochi.

There is not 1 match since I played the game after release (and Open beta) that there wasn't at least one Orochi but most of the time 2 or 3, at one point even 6 in one match.
Yet all other classes sometimes do not show up in matches, Lawbringer and Valkyrie being least seen.

This by itself should show at least something. And also to UBI.... Just change the level of Orochi, he's not a Hard character. That's just crazy. People have been saying this since Alpha.
I'm not talking OP, just the ease to use the character, he is Easy.

TCTF_SWAT
02-19-2017, 10:16 AM
My favorites are when assassins (mostly the cockroachs) play in dominion they

-95% will rush to the front instantly only to mostly get killed right after
-do literally nothing the whole match (whenI say nothing I mean....stand around don't cap points or even get kills but when a team fight happens they go in and spam heavies to get that one kill then go stand somewhere till it happens again).
-cochroach players players attempt to constantly GB you and/or stom rush you alot
-spam dodges even when nothing comes their way

I am confused though as to why cockroaches light doubles deal more damage then the warden's and don't give the opponent super armor. But what's also funny is he's the only assassin who doesn't ave any cancels outside of feints. The berserker has 3 (including feints) and the PK 4.

Brave_Thunder
02-19-2017, 10:22 AM
[/QUOTE] And also to UBI.... Just change the level of Orochi, he's not a Hard character. That's just crazy. People have been saying this since Alpha.
I'm not talking OP, just the ease to use the character, he is Easy.[/QUOTE]

As I said earlyer,it's described has hard because it is effectively more difficult than the vanguards.Try to play kensei and tell me that he ins't orochi with a longer sword(and a mask) especially his side attacks.Range is way better than speed if you can maintain distance.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 10:27 AM
At some point, the attack speed gets op, because you can only guess, from where the next attack might come.

The average reaction time us simply not low enough to react. Even if you can react fast enough, the guard recovery time is only a fart faster, than the attack speed of the opponent. This leaves us with the 33% joker.

What sucks is, that you get punished to death for one mistake.


Its not only the orochi, that can pull this off. Zerker, nobushi, orochi, pk, Kensai (certain extent) and soon, the Valkyrie (according to the patch notes).

Zv1k0
02-19-2017, 10:35 AM
Not everyone has the reflexes of a reptile hopped up on meth and adderall like you. Some of us are older, some of us have rust.

Or maybe some people just run auto-block programs?

Im sorry but in that case this game is not for you. All fighting games require pretty good reflexes and timings. They are meant to be competitive games so its pretty obvious you need some skill and in this case reflexes to beat your opponent. And this is not something you cant get used to.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 10:42 AM
Im sorry but in that case this game is not for you. All fighting games require pretty good reflexes and timings. They are meant to be competitive games so its pretty obvious you need some skill and in this case reflexes to beat your opponent. And this is not something you cant get used to.

In this case, the game will have to work with 3k players worldwide.

Sorry but this is not even a typical fighting game. Its got a lit of influences from other games. Fighting games usually revolve around 1on1s - die duel mode is the fighting game part of for honor. The rest of the game is more like a shooter with melee weapons.

This game needs players to work. The matchmaking is wonky - even with 50-60k players.

Knight_Raime
02-19-2017, 10:54 AM
I have tried SO hard this past week to play devils advocate as to why Orochi was okay the way he is.


But he just isn't.


- The sheer amount of scrubs who spam him. Every match there is at LEAST 2.

- How easy he is to use. He is SO damn easy to use that it is HILARIOUS he has a hard rating.

- The speed at which he attacks combined with his speed of changing angles is a ridiculous combination that is borderline impossible to 100% defend

- His damage relative to his speed is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. He hits WAY too hard for how fast he is.



I give up. Ubisoft you NEED to do SOMETHING about him. I don't care what at this point. But the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.


Considering the kinds of replies i've seen you give others i'm fully prepared to be told i'm full of it. But I wanted to add my own opinion. But first let me address the points you made:

~I mean this isn't my personal experience at all. I won't tell you what you experience. But to make a blanket statement like this is not only false but doesn't add anything to an actual discussion.

~It depends on who you're fighting. if you spam the same attacks over and over a competant player will flat out punish you for it. I'd say he is "simple" because what he brings to the table isn't complex. But that is it. he doesn't really have any attacks that combo into each other aside from SR into the 2 light upper hits. Pretty much all of his hits go upper. he also has no light into heavies. I'm going to guess that the reason why he's called "hard" is specifically because of how limited his kit is. you really need to learn how to counter the warrior your fighting. Mastering your feints so you can actually get your top hits in without being punished. I personally don't see him as hard. Medium is where i'd put him. But we don't know the parameters they used to rate the difficulty of each warrior. So it's hard for us to say one way or another.

~His change speed isn't faster than any other assassin. same with attack speed. "borderline impossible to defend" is hyperbolic nonsense. I played nothing but lawbringer and shugoki today and I was able to not only block attacks by him but parry them as well. The only 2 attacks that are really hard to react to is his zone and his upper lights. His zone always comes from your right though so just keep your neutral guard there. and the uppers can be predicted since an orochi always wants to go for them.

~The only good damage to speed thing that fits close to what you are saying is his 2 light uppers. His best damage combo is an SR into 2 light uppers and a GB to do a top heavy. SR his hilariously easy to parry. and you can tech the GB easily.

I don't think he's OP. he's strong. But not warlord or warden strong. Due to his inability to link most of his kit together, his easy to punish initiator, and the fact that nearly all of his attacks go for upper makes him really easy to predict and punish. Both orochi and PK are really good newb stompers. and they both have good potential in higher tier play. But orochi falls short of pk just because of his limited options alone. Warden and warlord exceed both because they both have far more options and reliable mix ups.

Leon026
02-19-2017, 10:55 AM
In essence he might not be OP.

But we are talking about a game that needs to appeal to a wide range of players to remain valid.
On high level Orochi can be beaten by just about anyone when the other player is simply more skilled. Parrying, blocking his (predictable) moves etc.

But the thing is 70% of the players will never get to that level. Which is fine, cause when everyone plays mediocre the game should still be fun.
This is where Orochi is the biggest problem imho. People with low mediocre skill can be deadly to anyone of same (or even bit higher) level of skill with Orochi.



This is in essence what the issue is. The Orochi is an "easy" class to learn and just spam due to his high speed. But against a higher level player who's experienced in fighting the Orochi, it isn't that much more OP. It's just that the entry level is very accessible.

My main is an Orochi, and those that have fought me will know that I never spam attacks nor spam GB. If I feel like I'm GBing too much, I'll just push instead (mostly in 1v1 duels.)

I've come across a huge number of "low tier" Orochi players when playing as mine or when I play my other characters, and its usually the same basic tactic: Low tier Orochis are extremely aggressive because they have too much confidence in their light attack spamming - and baiting them works very well.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 11:04 AM
~It depends on who you're fighting. if you spam the same attacks over and over a competant player will flat out punish you for it. I'd say he is "simple" because what he brings to the table isn't complex. But that is it. he doesn't really have any attacks that combo into each other aside from SR into the 2 light upper hits. Pretty much all of his hits go upper. he also has no light into heavies. I'm going to guess that the reason why he's called "hard" is specifically because of how limited his kit is. you really need to learn how to counter the warrior your fighting. Mastering your feints so you can actually get your top hits in without being punished. I personally don't see him as hard. Medium is where i'd put him. But we don't know the parameters they used to rate the difficulty of each warrior. So it's hard for us to say one way or another.


If I would follow this logic, the warden and conqueror should at least be labeled medium.

He is hard, because - in theory - he relies on dodges and counter attacks, to perform. Storm rush is a noob punisher and gap closer. The problem is, that he does not need to counter attack that much.

His light spam is effective enough and bears little risk.

That's the problem of fast attacking heros. They can be effective with their light attack chains alone, because they are too fast for mist players and gave the advantage, that only one or three attack vectors can be blocked at the same time. Attack speed and the guessing game both work in their favour.

Zv1k0
02-19-2017, 11:05 AM
In this case, the game will have to work with 3k players worldwide.

Sorry but this is not even a typical fighting game. Its got a lit of influences from other games. Fighting games usually revolve around 1on1s - die duel mode is the fighting game part of for honor. The rest of the game is more like a shooter with melee weapons.

This game needs players to work. The matchmaking is wonky - even with 50-60k players.

I was referring to 1v1s since we are talking about versing Orochi. So if we are talking about 1v1 part of the game it is a typical fighting game but its focused way more on defense than offense like other games(MK, SF,..). Dominion, skrimish, this is completely different and as I see it, more casual.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 11:11 AM
I was referring to 1v1s since we are talking about versing Orochi. So if we are talking about 1v1 part of the game it is a typical fighting game but its focused way more on defense than offense like other games(MK, SF,..). Dominion, skrimish, this is completely different and as I see it, more casual.

But it does not matter - no players = long and bad matchmaking = dead game.

Braegulfer
02-19-2017, 11:18 AM
Well. Their plan is, to make the Valkyrie the next light spammer. I guess that means, that they are ok with attacks so fast, that only a bot can block them.
And its not only the orochi. The nobushi fits in the same category, just like the zerker.

And I liked ger so much.

I guess this game centers around staggering players to death.

Lol, zerker is NOT very fast...at all.

Braegulfer
02-19-2017, 11:26 AM
Also, I don't have any special problems with orochi at all compared to a great shugoki or warlord or warden player. I play zerker, and Ive played against god-mode dudes at every position. Once you learn the classes, counters, and tells it comes down to personal skill. The best player I have ever dueled was a raider ffs.

Knight_Raime
02-19-2017, 11:34 AM
If I would follow this logic, the warden and conqueror should at least be labeled medium.

He is hard, because - in theory - he relies on dodges and counter attacks, to perform. Storm rush is a noob punisher and gap closer. The problem is, that he does not need to counter attack that much.

His light spam is effective enough and bears little risk.

That's the problem of fast attacking heros. They can be effective with their light attack chains alone, because they are too fast for mist players and gave the advantage, that only one or three attack vectors can be blocked at the same time. Attack speed and the guessing game both work in their favour.

Isn't conq already called medium by the game?
Warden has much more options and mix ups compared to conq and orochi.

I don't agree. Orochi's that typically go full aggressor on me hardly ever beat me. The orochis I remember actually beating me (and beating me hard) played reactively and specifically countered my moves. Assassin lights have to be better in general since they lack decent guarding and they are fragile. His lights are punishable. Maybe not by a new player. But a decent player who has some experience with the game (such as me.)

I don't see the issue. if a majority of the players are new ish to the game them being rolled by assassins is a non issue if players above that skill level can counter them frequently. I've got maybe 70 ish hours into the game. maybe 80 (since i'm counting the betas and only got the game friday) and assassins in general do not pose a threat to me unless they play smart. I see too many orochi/pk players that go full on aggressor and try to land as many hits as fast as possible. this gets them killed fast.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 11:48 AM
Isn't conq already called medium by the game?
Warden has much more options and mix ups compared to conq and orochi.

I don't agree. Orochi's that typically go full aggressor on me hardly ever beat me. The orochis I remember actually beating me (and beating me hard) played reactively and specifically countered my moves. Assassin lights have to be better in general since they lack decent guarding and they are fragile. His lights are punishable. Maybe not by a new player. But a decent player who has some experience with the game (such as me.)

I don't see the issue. if a majority of the players are new ish to the game them being rolled by assassins is a non issue if players above that skill level can counter them frequently. I've got maybe 70 ish hours into the game. maybe 80 (since i'm counting the betas and only got the game friday) and assassins in general do not pose a threat to me unless they play smart. I see too many orochi/pk players that go full on aggressor and try to land as many hits as fast as possible. this gets them killed fast.

The problem is high lvl players exploiting the assassin class, not the new players being plowed by them. And in this regard Orochi isn't the worst of the 3. Still has specific match ups where is top light, being as quick as it is, will punish the opponent while he is impossible to block due to built in game mechanic, namely the stance change speed. (Read: https://redd.it/5utcwp )

The chars described as having the lowest stance guard change speed on the thread I shared will be unable to defend against an orochi to light attack after blocking his storm rush for example, as long as he hits the timing to connect the top light attack straight after it. Pretty much the definition of broken.

The other assassins are worst and have way more advantageous moves and combos, the berserker infinite chain will connect 1 hit alternatively even when effectively blocking the first since you have the block recovery plus time to change stance and can't virtually keep up. You need to interrupt the chain start up or parry it to be safe when using the "slowest" chars, or block dodge retreat if nobushi.

Peacekeeper with her also quick combo or incredibly fast feint to follow up will also dominate against the "slower" chars since you will either have to only match stance to block at the last second or take the hit from switching stances trying to match her which carries recovery time and also leaves you open.

To all poster that are acting like nothing is wrong or only a matter of "git gud", read the reddit post. Understand the game mechanics. Consider every match up and acknowledge there are blatant mechanic issues that are exploitable and set a very small meta of picks and an also very small meta of moves needed to be successful and dominate. Hardly what the game intended for it to be

Belphegorn
02-19-2017, 11:52 AM
[insert your favourite class] vs Orochi:

Parry, Parry, finish a non-stamina Orochi with your desired move...

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 12:00 PM
[insert your favourite class] vs Orochi:

Parry, Parry, finish a non-stamina Orochi with your desired move...

Parrying light orochi spam is suicide. You will get punished for missing the parry.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 12:03 PM
[insert your favourite class] vs Orochi:

Parry, Parry, finish a non-stamina Orochi with your desired move...

WoW. Triple WoW actually. Would love to play in your MMR! Suspect I'd plow over everyone

Parrying an Orochi? Sure if he's that predictable and feed you heavy attacks.
Guard breaking an exhausted opponent? In my MMR guard breaking a full stamina opponent is already hard enough, guard breaking one that is already counting on it is nearly impossible. I still try, so believe me, pretty much impossible against good players. Certainly not a certain win move advice. but you tried

Brave_Thunder
02-19-2017, 01:50 PM
WoW. Triple WoW actually. Would love to play in your MMR! Suspect I'd plow over everyone

Parrying an Orochi? Sure if he's that predictable and feed you heavy attacks.
Guard breaking an exhausted opponent? In my MMR guard breaking a full stamina opponent is already hard enough, guard breaking one that is already counting on it is nearly impossible. I still try, so believe me, pretty much impossible against good players. Certainly not a certain win move advice. but you tried

Maybe you need better reaction times.I've parryed plenty of orochis,with both pk and kensei,you have just to understand their moveset and train in waiting the right time.Could be a better use of time rather than pointing out small bugs with stances.

Zv1k0
02-19-2017, 02:01 PM
Maybe you need better reaction times.I've parryed plenty of orochis,with both pk and kensei,you have just to understand their moveset and train in waiting the right time.Could be a better use of time rather than pointing out small bugs with stances.

Totally agree. Its not that hard to parry Orochis. I mean they literally have 3 moves. Zephyr slash, telegraphed enough for you to parry. Storm rush, one of the easiest moves to parry. Occasional GB which is well, 50-50 if you cant time it. And their strongest move, double top light and because its the strongest you can expect them to do it a lot, again, easy parry. Only thing they can cancel is Storm rush which can catch you of guard but thats it. I lost many fights against Orochis but i wont call them OP because i know why i lost, my own mistakes. Its way easier to play against specific characters when you play them, master them and understand every move they have.

Xb1MasterNoctis
02-19-2017, 02:10 PM
I have tried SO hard this past week to play devils advocate as to why Orochi was okay the way he is.


But he just isn't.


- The sheer amount of scrubs who spam him. Every match there is at LEAST 2.

- How easy he is to use. He is SO damn easy to use that it is HILARIOUS he has a hard rating.

- The speed at which he attacks combined with his speed of changing angles is a ridiculous combination that is borderline impossible to 100% defend

- His damage relative to his speed is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. He hits WAY too hard for how fast he is.



I give up. Ubisoft you NEED to do SOMETHING about him. I don't care what at this point. But the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.

warden really easy to use just spam guard break and shoulder charge.
berserk easy.

popular class should tell you quite alot. Yeah it does people like the way samurai look come up against a really good player Orochi not that OP i think you just need to lift your game.

TruBmp
02-19-2017, 02:26 PM
Orochi needs 2 changes.

1. he shouldnt get a free overhead heavy after gb. no other character can do that and other chars that are supposed to be hard hitters have to do huge setups just to maybe match the dmg a random orochi gb does. side heavy fine, top heavy is plain bs.

2. double tap needs slight dmg reduce. an almost instant attack shouldnt hit harder then most heavy attacks.

after all hes super fast,agile and just isnt supposed to deal more dmg then pretty much evryone outside of shugoki.



and yes hes stupidly easy to play at low-medium levels cause just with 2 double taps and a random gb top heavy the enemy will be at like 20% or less. also with his speed he can controll the battle and mindless spamming counters many classes slower moves.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 02:33 PM
The nobushi gets a free overhead heavy after a gb. It hits like a train. With poison, it's at 47dmg iirc.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 02:41 PM
@ sweeper ... Its not even possible in local games, because the guard change and attack speeds are too close to each other.

Zv1k0
02-19-2017, 02:50 PM
That's the problem. The latency can't keep yup with the speed, so v even if you DO get your block up in time on your screen, the latency will still read it as you being late and it will go through - and thanks to the stagger-on-hit crap you can't do anything about guarding combos once this happens. Basically with an orochi if you don't block the first strike you're screwed. THAT is why it needs a Nerf - because the games latency cannot keep up with the speed of character inputs.

This is true and i've experienced it as well. But thats not the reason to nerf specific characters but fix servers. We need dedicated servers or something for this kind of issue. Only thing to change on Orochi would be damage reduction maybe, thats it.

Vordred
02-19-2017, 03:19 PM
i would count on them doing anything about him, i thik the Dev team loves the Orochi. after every test session the forum blew up with Orochi is OP threads, but he is still just the same. plus find it funny that in the story, you play the vanguard class main, but also play each of the other classes once too. but for samurai, you play as the orochi for all but one short level.

i think all assassins would be fixed and less played, if they change dodge so you get hit if you dodge into an attack (unless timed right for a deflect) problem with the assassins if that you don't need to learn the Art of Battle system, when you just have 1 button that solves all you defensive need and gives you free attack when you do dodge an attack.

or another solution is to remove the dodge attacks, if you want a free attack of a dodge, you should deflect, currently there is no reason to deflect as you can land a free hit of a dodged attack anyway and that attack will start a combo

TCTF_SWAT
02-19-2017, 03:36 PM
I don't think any character should get a free heavy off a GB.

CrossRoads7
02-19-2017, 03:43 PM
I have tried SO hard this past week to play devils advocate as to why Orochi was okay the way he is.


But he just isn't.


- The sheer amount of scrubs who spam him. Every match there is at LEAST 2.

- How easy he is to use. He is SO damn easy to use that it is HILARIOUS he has a hard rating.

- The speed at which he attacks combined with his speed of changing angles is a ridiculous combination that is borderline impossible to 100% defend

- His damage relative to his speed is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. He hits WAY too hard for how fast he is.



I give up. Ubisoft you NEED to do SOMETHING about him. I don't care what at this point. But the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.

bro you are just bad, i a orochi lvl 1 prestige almost lvl2, and now i started to play warden, i havent lost a match vs a orochi,learn to defend, low to parry and counter Gb, play orochi and learn hes movements then youll beaten easily.
he does tones of dmg, also he has a really low hp pool.
To defeat someone learn their weaknesses 1st.

Leon026
02-19-2017, 03:50 PM
I honestly don't get the whole Orochi is OP - he's stupidly predictable, and shines when you begin to attack him blindly. He doesn't have bleeds, has a short throw range, nor can he push. Get him to attack (and most average / low-tier orochis will) and you can easily counter it.

It's a character that's easy to use against players that aren't good at defense.

RaidoKnight
02-19-2017, 03:59 PM
the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.
No.
He is popular because he has style, he is a very stylish character, same as Peacekeeper or Warden or Berserker, THAT is why we see those character often, not because they are too good, hate the word OP/Overpowered because most of you use it way to often, there is not even a single "OP" character in this game.

I have my problems with Orochi too, but it's because I have a hard time to learn this matchup.
The only thing that could be changed about the Orochi is that he can double light you after he hits the dash slice attack, that is kinda over the top, but that's it.

Most people in this game prefer stylish character over the slower big ones, but that is just because they are much more fun in my opinion (and as we can see I'm not alone with that), not because they are better, they are really not.

Warden & Warlord are super super strong in higher levels (not OP tho).

Jhonbanting
02-19-2017, 04:57 PM
Orochi is very good speed, then practicing to refine your skill to do this 3 simple thing
1. Block
2. Counter GB
3. Dodge
4. Attack

i personaly practice with lvl 3 bots orochi with best of 99 round in custom game and then guess the result?
i can compete with orochi real life player, i say compete that means not always winning, but at least being able to fight as a worthy opponent

*forgive my english

CairoTheCat
02-19-2017, 05:29 PM
This is a post of someone who has no idea what they're doing. I have no trouble with any orochi I've ever come across, my orochi main friends are hardly ever dominating or going uncontested. They are not overpowered. Take a look at ScottJund and he'll tell you everything you need to know. The top-tier characters in the game right now are, in order, Warden, PK, Warlord. Orochi is the very definition of mid-tier. As a warden main I can comfortably say that Orochi doesn't need any changes, if anything he needs a buff. All you need is to take a moment and learn, understanding the class you're fighting is just as important as understanding the class you're playing. Orochi is not broken.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 06:08 PM
Orochi is very good speed, then practicing to refine your skill to do this 3 simple thing
1. Block
2. Counter GB
3. Dodge
4. Attack

i personaly practice with lvl 3 bots orochi with best of 99 round in custom game and then guess the result?
i can compete with orochi real life player, i say compete that means not always winning, but at least being able to fight as a worthy opponent

*forgive my english

I am playing as a warden - mostly.

As a warden, I can adjust my guard s fast, as the orochi can. At first, it sounds lone a fair thing but the orochi has the advantage of knowing, where he wants to strike. I am left to either react on their guard change - this can not be achieved, because my guard would have to adjust while the orochi strikes with a light attack - my guard will not be up on time. The orocho now knows, where my guard was, that he is as fast, as I am and changes the attack direction. Now, I have to guess, where the next attack will come from and only one out of three directions is correct. Meanwhile, I am stuck on the orochis stagger and my hero is unable to do anything, during the hit recovery. During that time, you can not dodge. When you recover, the next blow is already on its way and hits you, while you try to sidestep. Partying might be an option but a block would be wiser, because it at least disrupts the orochis chain. Why should I rist an additional punish from missing the parry, if I can successfully block? In this moment, I have won the guessing game and can throw a gb or light attack.

Add lag and you are f****d.

I trained against level 2 orochi bots, because they spam light attacks outside of a gb and try to gb you. Even the bots are hard to block successfully and they don't have lag. Multiplayer matches will always have lag and lag in a game with such narrow timing windows, is deadly, if the attacker is fast enough.

Cuneytteke
02-19-2017, 06:13 PM
I have tried SO hard this past week to play devils advocate as to why Orochi was okay the way he is.


But he just isn't.


- The sheer amount of scrubs who spam him. Every match there is at LEAST 2.

- How easy he is to use. He is SO damn easy to use that it is HILARIOUS he has a hard rating.

- The speed at which he attacks combined with his speed of changing angles is a ridiculous combination that is borderline impossible to 100% defend

- His damage relative to his speed is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. He hits WAY too hard for how fast he is.



I give up. Ubisoft you NEED to do SOMETHING about him. I don't care what at this point. But the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.


She's good but not OP... she's a noobstomper like berserker. If you parry her once her stamina bar is gone, she falls on the ground, free heavy. The thing i like about her is when you predict a guardbreak or heavy you can storm rush people for insane damage.. Storm rush + Free toplights = 40% of health

I guess her sidewinder is a good parto f her kit too because you cant guardbreak it.

thats all to it.. the deflect is not even that strong because a parry gives you a grab + free heavy which is more dmg

Warden is so much better because of her zone attack speed and her shoulderbash/top light harrassing

KaidzenMonada
02-19-2017, 06:17 PM
I have tried SO hard this past week to play devils advocate as to why Orochi was okay the way he is.


But he just isn't.


- The sheer amount of scrubs who spam him. Every match there is at LEAST 2.

- How easy he is to use. He is SO damn easy to use that it is HILARIOUS he has a hard rating.

- The speed at which he attacks combined with his speed of changing angles is a ridiculous combination that is borderline impossible to 100% defend

- His damage relative to his speed is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. He hits WAY too hard for how fast he is.



I give up. Ubisoft you NEED to do SOMETHING about him. I don't care what at this point. But the fact that Orochi is the unanimously popular class should tell you quite alot.


You are just another idiot who doesn't understand every heroes strength and weaknesses!
I play as Orochi and for idiots like you i will reveal some info:

Orochi's strenght is his speed and agility! But weaknesess are - low health, limited time for blocking, pretty hard combos (you need to do certain things in a second like the Flash - and it's not easy), you have to rely on these hard combos or slowly kill with light strikes (which is very low damage) and if you want to do more attack with (heavy attacks) you need to loose speed, which is Death for Orochi! Also, when you are playing Orochi you need to always look at your surroundings, or else you will be cornered and spammed into death. And if you played duels you must know - most of the maps are soooo narrow (bridges, ladders, etc.) that it is veeeery hard for Orochi to dodge attacks of spammers.

This is it! Every hero needs own strategy. If you don't understand such simple things oh man, only death awaits you in the future. and more of such useless topics about other heroes who killed you!)

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 06:26 PM
Double post

Th1ccD1ckR1ck
02-20-2017, 01:28 AM
In this case, the game will have to work with 3k players worldwide.

Sorry but this is not even a typical fighting game. Its got a lit of influences from other games. Fighting games usually revolve around 1on1s - die duel mode is the fighting game part of for honor. The rest of the game is more like a shooter with melee weapons.

This game needs players to work. The matchmaking is wonky - even with 50-60k players.

^-He's right you know.



DrExtrem is right. If you cater to only a small minority of the playerbase, that's all you're going to end up with in the long run.

Miadous
02-20-2017, 02:05 AM
The two most played and most prestige classes that I see are Orochi and Warden. I just played with a prestige 6 Orochi. That alone has to tell you something. They are both head and shoulders above all other classes. If you don't agree, then you haven't went against a good one.

Antistrategos7
02-20-2017, 02:18 AM
I'm not going to shout about the Orochi being overpowered -- I'll leave that for the developers to decide.

But I would request that someone take a closer look.

In my OPINION, something definitely feels off about the Orochi when compared to any other character I fight. In particular, the amount of damage they can dish out for the stamina cost and the speed of their light attacks. Every other fight I have feels like an intelligent dance -- if I lose, I groan and feel like I made a mistake and know what I need to work on. When fighting the Orochi, it ends up being a light-attack hackfest to either kill them first or get lucky on blocks or parries, because you physically can't switch guard fast enough if you miss the first block.

KaidzenMonada
02-20-2017, 06:03 AM
I'm not going to shout about the Orochi being overpowered -- I'll leave that for the developers to decide.

But I would request that someone take a closer look.

In my OPINION, something definitely feels off about the Orochi when compared to any other character I fight. In particular, the amount of damage they can dish out for the stamina cost and the speed of their light attacks. Every other fight I have feels like an intelligent dance -- if I lose, I groan and feel like I made a mistake and know what I need to work on. When fighting the Orochi, it ends up being a light-attack hackfest to either kill them first or get lucky on blocks or parries, because you physically can't switch guard fast enough if you miss the first block.

How many times did you fight against Orochi? 1, 3? Did you fight with other assassins? How many times? Seems like not enough!
If you would fight enough, you would understand that most of the Orochi's strikes goest at the same directions, so if only you practice in a custom duel match against Orochi like 20-40 rounds you would feel easy to block all of them, including these light attacks.

As to why people choose Ororchi: people who mastered Orochi can easily kill noobs, then these noobs change their heroes to Orochi (thinking that the problem is in hero, not in their skills), and start to spam like crazy with light attacks (you can kill with spamming only noobs, but later they will face other heroes with skills mastered and these noobs will be an easy prey).

So, what i want to say that in early stages of the game - when people didn't master their heroes Orochi can be a light attacks spamer, but later this noob Orochi's will die easily, when others master theit heroes and only TRUE MASTER Orochi's will be left! And yes, becoming that true master is not an easy task, much more hard than become master Warden or master Holdar or else!

Foxunbeatable
02-20-2017, 06:35 AM
Yaal should learn how to parry lol.

I find most orochi very predicable with their dash attacks and side attacks. Punishing if you miss the timing, sure, but what isn't.

Zeo
02-20-2017, 06:42 AM
I kill any Orochi 1v1, as Orochi.

They're SO easy to parry.

I don't Zepher spam.

#gitgud

Edit:

The P2P is the only reason I ever lose there.

Lag is evil.

Dedicated servers. Sign me up.

HumoLoco
02-20-2017, 06:59 AM
Orochi has hard time to deal with the tank class like Conqueror, Warlord, or Shugoki. Anything other class that are fast like Valkyrie would be chance to beat Orochi. All is you have to avoid their dodge and attack all is you have to find their open spot or wait til they running out of stamina.

I playing Orochi, I can understand why it is hard to using him but easy to trolling around them.

whovie
02-20-2017, 07:06 AM
I think a big part of it isn't the characters but the mechanics. The only tool in the orochi kit i think needs changed is the top heavy after guard break, it needs to be a side like the rest of them. Aside from that I think its just lag or buggy mechanics that make him seem op. If there is lag or it bugs his speed and damage are devastating. But with a clean connection he's no different than any other character.

TR3Y_GEE
02-20-2017, 07:27 AM
if they take out the side dash attack from orachi, berserker, and kensi, the game would be 75% more enjoyable. they are just the most overpowered move and the most spamable.

awolcz
02-20-2017, 07:48 AM
Problem with Orochi is that she recovers too fast after being blocked or parried. She changes attack direction faster than some other heroes can change the guard. But when you are finally able to block or parry her, she strikes back faster than I am able to punish her.Wft? So no free hit after I finally parry this little bastard? Same applies to shoulder charge or shove. She recovers so fast that I'm unable to give single light attack. The only way to beat her is to parry her until she is out of stamina and then throw her on the ground and do one heavy, then repeat - which is quite boring and unfair.

Chillowl
02-20-2017, 07:56 AM
if they take out the side dash attack from orachi, berserker, and kensi, the game would be 75% more enjoyable. they are just the most overpowered move and the most spamable.

Practice your feints and changing blocking directions right after, works wonders against all three of those heroes. I should know I main a serker :P

KaidzenMonada
02-20-2017, 08:09 AM
What can i say more - PRACTICE!!!

KiyaruSan
02-20-2017, 08:18 AM
This thread makes me so sad, When it comes down to it, orochi is actually quite lack luster when players know how to parry/feint and punish sidesteps.

By simply punishing sidestep heavy orochi's with a parry (since their attack direction will be locked. or guard break punishing them, because counter guard breaking is impossible while caught in a dash. Holding your block direction in the top will make 90% of orochi players fairly useless. I don't really know what you're complaining about, at high levels the classes with more health or guaranteed guard opening moves win. none of the assassins have any of that going for them, the only thing they have is fast attacks and a low health pool. and even the fast attacks are predictable if you've played the classes often enough.

Assassins in the current state can punish people for mistakes, beginners and intermediates sure enough. But when you get to the gameplay where a lot of people are already at, assassins fall off hard.

in the all famous dark souls words; git gud.

Brave_Thunder
02-20-2017, 08:57 AM
if they take out the side dash attack from orachi, berserker, and kensi, the game would be 75% more enjoyable. they are just the most overpowered move and the most spamable.

Then turtles will have easy win.All side attacks come from the same direction depending on the character.Learn it and block/parry.

TatoRezo
02-20-2017, 08:59 AM
What is even more ridiculous is the frames and recovery on orochi light attacks AFTER getting hit by a heavy. In fighting games basically when you are hit you are put at a disadvantage and must block the next attack in chain. Here you can just light attack and the heavies mid chain will get canceled.

Toast_Addict
02-20-2017, 09:16 AM
the only change I would like to see is doubling the cost of rolling for the assassins. Not the dash, the actual roll.

This would leave a larger vulnerability window if they just want to spam attacks then roll away when they low on stams.

ViciousOphidian
02-20-2017, 11:39 AM
ITT People explaining complex tactics with blocking, feinting and performing perfect combos whilst countering GB perfectly in order to counter an Orochi pressing LMB.
P.S. Kensei and Peacekeeper also seem easy as phuck to use but at least Peacekeeper doesnt kill me in 3 light attacks, so i have an actual chance to predict his attacks before he makes them.

Knight_Raime
02-20-2017, 01:12 PM
The problem is high lvl players exploiting the assassin class, not the new players being plowed by them. And in this regard Orochi isn't the worst of the 3. Still has specific match ups where is top light, being as quick as it is, will punish the opponent while he is impossible to block due to built in game mechanic, namely the stance change speed. (Read: https://redd.it/5utcwp )

The chars described as having the lowest stance guard change speed on the thread I shared will be unable to defend against an orochi to light attack after blocking his storm rush for example, as long as he hits the timing to connect the top light attack straight after it. Pretty much the definition of broken.

The other assassins are worst and have way more advantageous moves and combos, the berserker infinite chain will connect 1 hit alternatively even when effectively blocking the first since you have the block recovery plus time to change stance and can't virtually keep up. You need to interrupt the chain start up or parry it to be safe when using the "slowest" chars, or block dodge retreat if nobushi.

Peacekeeper with her also quick combo or incredibly fast feint to follow up will also dominate against the "slower" chars since you will either have to only match stance to block at the last second or take the hit from switching stances trying to match her which carries recovery time and also leaves you open.

To all poster that are acting like nothing is wrong or only a matter of "git gud", read the reddit post. Understand the game mechanics. Consider every match up and acknowledge there are blatant mechanic issues that are exploitable and set a very small meta of picks and an also very small meta of moves needed to be successful and dominate. Hardly what the game intended for it to be

I've never had the benefit of fighting a really high skilled player. So I can't state anything definitively. But imo if the person is skilled enough it really wouldn't matter who they played as. they could reasonably roll people regardless. imho if you are in the top 10% of players skill wise I feel like you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you weren't warlord or warden. PK is the only assassin I would consider close to the god tier that is those other 2.

I still don't think assassins are an overpowered option. This is mainly because defensive play in this game is unquestionably the best thing in the game. I could see making all stance switch speeds close to each other. But I don't think assassins need any major changes. Maybe make it so dashing while exhausted is less effective (meaning less I frames/dash distance) But not touching their speed or power. That is what allows them to stand on their feed against most other heros.

Feydakin_
02-20-2017, 02:31 PM
I wouldn't worry, Orochi will get nerfed. It's obvious from the match data that it's too easy, too fast, and too rewarding.

Funeragon
02-20-2017, 03:52 PM
I wouldn't worry, Orochi will get nerfed. It's obvious from the match data that it's too easy, too fast, and too rewarding.

no arguments.

I see a lot of people complaining about orochi, cause he has fast light, that's the only argument they have. But, wtf, only his top attack is as fast as every light from a peacekeeper. His sides attacks are slow as hell and do less damage than top attack. So yeah, keeps ur guard top.