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JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-28-2004, 05:21 PM
AFAIK some "D9's" were equipped with a special "Bodenlader".

This means the Supercharger was optimized for Low to med- Altitude. similar to the Spit LF.

But i do not have any further information about this plane, any1 have some ?

just hered something about Speed increasing to 640kph at SL!
Damn since we will get the Tempest i'd like to see that monster in the game too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

[This message was edited by ToP_BlackSheep on Sat August 21 2004 at 09:41 AM.]

[This message was edited by ToP_BlackSheep on Sat August 21 2004 at 09:42 AM.]

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-28-2004, 05:21 PM
AFAIK some "D9's" were equipped with a special "Bodenlader".

This means the Supercharger was optimized for Low to med- Altitude. similar to the Spit LF.

But i do not have any further information about this plane, any1 have some ?

just hered something about Speed increasing to 640kph at SL!
Damn since we will get the Tempest i'd like to see that monster in the game too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

[This message was edited by ToP_BlackSheep on Sat August 21 2004 at 09:41 AM.]

[This message was edited by ToP_BlackSheep on Sat August 21 2004 at 09:42 AM.]

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-29-2004, 01:42 AM
bump

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

robban75
05-29-2004, 05:55 AM
You can email Bury on this matter, he might be able to help you(us). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/Dora.htm

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Charos
05-29-2004, 07:02 AM
Guys

Just did a Quick search and found this thread over at the Luftwaffe Experten Message Board.

http://pub157.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm9.showMessage?topicID=16 1.topic

In the Thread Naudet mentions:

"PS: Interesting side note. When either "Erh√¬∂hte Notleistung" or MW50 systems were installed the alttitude at which the loader switched int high gear change.
The change from "Bodenlader" to "H√¬∂henlader" than took place between 1800-2000m."

p1ngu666
05-29-2004, 09:04 AM
butch might be able to chime in with some info http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

Willey
05-29-2004, 12:38 PM
Look at the speeds http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif:

http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/DoraData/horizontalgeschwindigkeiten.htm

Willey
05-29-2004, 12:40 PM
Made an Excel Diagram ouf of it:

http://home.arcor.de/eldur/bilder/d9speeds.jpg

robban75
05-29-2004, 01:17 PM
Bare in mind that those speeds are WITH the ETC 504 rack, and therefore one should add 6km/h from SL to 6500m, and 10km/h above that to get the "clean" speed.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-29-2004, 01:22 PM
would be a realy fast Fighter, or better to say, give it an ETC and it would be a verry fast JaBo.

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

faustnik
05-29-2004, 02:15 PM
Holy Schnikies that thing is fast!

MUST HAVE MORE SPEED! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

p1ngu666
05-29-2004, 04:23 PM
yes, u will need the speed when the mossie arrives http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
shame u will haveto wait to 44/45 (late44?) for your uber dora
a tempest is even faster tho at SL ?

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-30-2004, 02:08 AM
don't know about tempest, but 690kph at 3500m is quite fast... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

CTO88
05-30-2004, 11:15 AM
1. 190d9 never had c3 or engine for it.

2. "bodenlader" is only availible to jumo213ag, not for jumo213a. but less than 10 jumo213ag were built and no version of 190d9 fly with it.

3. maybe oleg should put it in. but remember 640km/h is an mathematical figure by producer. producer-figure for la-7 is also 640km/h.

CTO88
05-30-2004, 11:15 AM
1. 190d9 never had c3 or engine for it.

2. "bodenlader" is only availible to jumo213ag, not for jumo213a. but less than 10 jumo213ag were built and no version of 190d9 fly with it.

3. maybe oleg should put it in. but remember 640km/h is an mathematical figure by producer. producer-figure for la-7 is also 640km/h.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-31-2004, 02:00 AM
hmm as i said i have no information about it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

don't know if they tested it or not.

but D9 (44) we have in game is using C3....

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

Willey
06-01-2004, 05:20 AM
The lack of C3 fuel was obviously the reason for the little number of A-Lader Doras. That's also why they made B4 + MW-50 ones in '45, which have worse performance. I'd really like ETC-504 loadouts for the Dora, as well as WGr.21s (droppable, PLS! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - for all planes). The problem is that chances are really bad if they release PF without FB content; that would mean, no more FB support, but PF support. I really hope they'll make one big sim out of it, and then chances are better that something happens about the loadouts. With A-Lader, it would really rock it out... imagine ~600km/h with 250kg bomb on the deck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. And I don't wanna know it's actual power & climb rates down low http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. A true beast http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif. But looking at planes like I-185, MiG-3U, G-6/AS + MW-50, Go-229, YP-80 and such, the Dora with A-Lader should get into FB. It's a similarly easy job like adding all those LaGG/Yak variants we got in 2.01. And as I said bombs... where's the P-47M/N for the yanks?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I'd really like to see it for '45 fights...

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
08-21-2004, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
The lack of C3 fuel was obviously the reason for the little number of A-Lader Doras. That's also why they made B4 + MW-50 ones in '45, which have worse performance. I'd really like ETC-504 loadouts for the Dora, as well as WGr.21s (droppable, PLS! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - for all planes). The problem is that chances are really bad if they release PF without FB content; that would mean, no more FB support, but PF support. I really hope they'll make one big sim out of it, and then chances are better that something happens about the loadouts. With A-Lader, it would really rock it out... imagine ~600km/h with 250kg bomb on the deck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. And I don't wanna know it's actual power & climb rates down low http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. A true beast http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif. But looking at planes like I-185, MiG-3U, G-6/AS + MW-50, Go-229, YP-80 and such, the Dora with A-Lader should get into FB. It's a similarly easy job like adding all those LaGG/Yak variants we got in 2.01. And as I said bombs... where's the P-47M/N for the yanks?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I'd really like to see it for '45 fights...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a cher....oh BUMP for the need of Speed

http://home.arcor.de/sebastianleitiger/other%20Stuff/we%20rule%20your%20world3.jpg (http://www.hell-hounds.de)

robban75
08-21-2004, 10:40 AM
Here's the original chart.

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/d9speed2chart.jpg

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

Willey
08-21-2004, 12:35 PM
Added GM-1 speeds...

Willey
08-21-2004, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
Here's the original chart.

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/d9speed2chart.jpg<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks very much like the one I made out of the data from that Jagdhund site.

Diablo310th
08-21-2004, 12:52 PM
geez..if you all get that beast i want my M model Jug. I'll need it to keep up.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
08-21-2004, 01:16 PM
Bumpio

excellent request black
it would be very cool to have the ETC rack aswell for droptank and bombs

infact this what i ever wanted for my beloved Dora,plus the fact it would go faster with A-lader someone said 690kph at 3500m? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

well bring on those tempest and P47M http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/FW190A6sigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

dadada1
08-21-2004, 01:48 PM
Give us this and a D13 to deal with the later Spits and I'll never ask for another thing, I promise.

Willey
08-21-2004, 02:26 PM
How much would a D-9 with A-Lader, some R4M racks and a bomb rock... Well I could still RTB with more than 600 TAS @ SL then http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'd gladly have a P-47M, too. And a P-47N for the Pacific.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
08-21-2004, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
How much would a D-9 with A-Lader, some R4M racks and a bomb rock... Well I could still RTB with more than 600 TAS @ SL then http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'd gladly have a P-47M, too. And a P-47N for the Pacific.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jeah formation flying with a P51D...

P51: what's your power setting ?
D9: hmm 85% ?
P51: can u throttle back i got overheat^^

roflmao!

http://home.arcor.de/sebastianleitiger/other%20Stuff/we%20rule%20your%20world3.jpg (http://www.hell-hounds.de)

robban75
08-21-2004, 03:57 PM
A Mustang with 150 octane fuel would be as fast as the A-lader boosted Dora. I guess the Tempest, D-9 and Mustang could all benefit from having such high performance. Everyone is flying the Spitfire IX online nowadays. It's kinda boring.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

DarthBane_
08-21-2004, 04:18 PM
It is too difficult to aim and hit with Dora, i used to drive it before, but with current 151/20 damage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif i gave up. That is why more hevily armed Doras are needed.

Willey
08-21-2004, 04:22 PM
13mm removed, MK 108s added, just wing guns... that would rock it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OldMan____
08-21-2004, 04:31 PM
I still prefer the extra speed.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

BBB_Hyperion
08-21-2004, 09:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
A Mustang with 150 octane fuel would be as fast as the A-lader boosted Dora. I guess the Tempest, D-9 and Mustang could all benefit from having such high performance. Everyone is flying the Spitfire IX online nowadays. It's kinda boring.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Does a Mustang with 150 octan make 640 km/h at 0 meters ?

La7 did make 640 km/h on 0 m on better production aircraft as well as the A Lader Dora 9.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

robban75
08-22-2004, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion: Does a Mustang with 150 octan make 640 km/h at 0 meters ?

La7 did make 640 km/h on 0 m on better production aircraft as well as the A Lader Dora 9.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I quote lrrp on the P-51 speed numbers. He has waymore knowledge on the Mustang than me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The V-1650-3 engined P-51B/C's were tested between 350 and 359 mph while the -7 B/C's and P-51D were in the range of 355 to 373 mph at 67" Hg, depending on condition, and probably ~380 mph at 72" Hg WEP. At the RAF-standard 80" WEP and 2000+ HP, 390 to 400+ mph was to be expected.

The P-51 we have in FB/AEP has a performance that match the 67" Hg. With 72" Hg it would be as fast as the D-9 '45, ~612kmh.
The P-51 with 80" Hg would be just as fast as the D-9 with A-lader. 640+km/h.

AFAIK, no standard La-7 ever reached 640km/h at SL. Normal SL topspeeds with augmented power were 582km/h. Later in the production quality increased and 612km/h at SL was possible.
A prototype for the La-5 reached 630km/h at SL, but that was 40km/h faster than what was attainable for production La-5's.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

BBB_Hyperion
08-22-2004, 05:58 PM
http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/la7.jpg

You are right was pre production series robban .)

Anyway nice info on p51 how many were used with this setup in eto ? 150 Octan and 80 Hg are there flighttests showing the topspeed , conditions and plane parts ?

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

OldMan____
08-22-2004, 06:13 PM
I prefer when people post Luftwaffe charts.. at least they use same alphabet :P

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
08-23-2004, 10:59 AM
hehe these are comparation charts for the Yak1, Yak3, La5, La5 FN(?) and the La7.

Speed vs Altitude http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.arcor.de/sebastianleitiger/other%20Stuff/we%20rule%20your%20world3.jpg (http://www.hell-hounds.de)

RK_HH-Mainframe
08-23-2004, 02:22 PM
Bump for the beast http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v96/mainframe-97th/Banners%20and%20avator/SIGmain.gif

Willey
08-23-2004, 02:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ToP_BlackSheep:
hehe these are comparation charts for the Yak1, Yak3, La5, La5 FN(?) and the La7.

Speed vs Altitude http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what's it saying below the chart??

Production aircraft? Test aircraft?

I have a TsAGI chart where the La-7 just does ~613 at SL. And another where it's at ~630. But I can't read that stuff below it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Probably it explains a bit...

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
08-24-2004, 06:33 AM
mayber oleg can help http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.arcor.de/sebastianleitiger/other%20Stuff/we%20rule%20your%20world3.jpg (http://www.hell-hounds.de)

Future-
08-24-2004, 09:27 AM
Another thread that asks for more speed, more variants and more firepower for the 190.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Wow, some people never quit.


There are several loadout options still missing that would be more interesting than loading another 190 with 30mm cannons and/or a more powerful engine.
And don't forget there are plenty of aircraft that are definitely more worthy to be included than yet another 190/109/Yak etc. .


If these 190-request-threads weren't as pathetic as they are, they would almost be laughable http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif .


Keep dreaming folks, S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

robban75
08-24-2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Future-:
Another thread that asks for more speed, more variants and more firepower for the 190.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Wow, some people never quit.


There are several loadout options still missing that would be more interesting than loading another 190 with 30mm cannons and/or a more powerful engine.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From my standpoint as a Dora driver I am of a completely different oppinion. Pathetic aren't I?

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

LEXX_Luthor
08-24-2004, 01:00 PM
Less [Fw] Doras, more accurate FM http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

*bump* for 109 Doras though


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
The 109 was the dog chasing the car and the P51 was the dog catcher ~ASH_SMART
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

lrrp22
08-24-2004, 01:48 PM
Hyperion,

After August of 1944, all England/ETO-based RAF Mustang III's and IV's utilized 100/150 grade fuel and +25 lbs/80" Hg boost.

Details can be found in AVIA 6/10618, dated August '44, from the Royal Aircraft Establishment. A Mustang III pulled from squadron service, FB377, reached 652 kph at sea level without wingracks, and 636 kph with wingracks and in full combat configuration. A fresh airframe would likely have been a little faster still.

Here is a list of so-equipped ETO-based RAF squadrons (20 aircraft per sqn.):

65 Sqn-----------Dec43
122 Sqn----------Jan44
19 Sqn-----------Mar44
306 Sqn----------26Mar44
315 Sqn----------27Mar44
129 Sqn----------Apr44
316 Sqn----------19Apr44
234 Sqn----------Sep44
309 Sqn----------20Oct44
64 Sqn-----------Nov44
126 Sqn----------Dec44
165 Sqn----------Jan45
118 Sqn----------1Feb45
303 Sqn----------4Apr45 (Mustang IV)
441 Sqn----------Apr45 (Mustang IV)
442 Sqn----------9Apr45 (Mustang IV)

As you can see, large numbers of these airplanes were available by the time the late 109's and 190's entered service.

HTH

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:

Anyway nice info on p51 how many were used with this setup in eto ? 150 Octan and 80 Hg are there flighttests showing the topspeed , conditions and plane parts ?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KGr.HH-Sunburst
08-24-2004, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Future-:
Another thread that asks for more speed, more variants and more firepower for the 190.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Wow, some people never quit.


There are several loadout options still missing that would be more interesting than loading another 190 with 30mm cannons and/or a more powerful engine.
And don't forget there are plenty of aircraft that are definitely more worthy to be included than yet another 190/109/Yak etc. .


If these 190-request-threads weren't as pathetic as they are, they would almost be laughable http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif .


Keep dreaming folks, S!

- Future
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

whats wrong with asking for an ETC rack for droptank and bombs amongst other things ?
thats a pretty important loadout wich is missing on the dora i dont see anything wrong with that
its just as important as HVARS on the P47/P51

but yet you find us pathetic? people can ask whatever the hell they want so go pi$$ on someone else ,we cannot help it you dont have your bomber in the game.

besides no friggin wonder you see somany FW190/109 requests because those are the only two fighter variants we have on the AXIS side unlike the 20+ on the allied side D-UH http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

damn we are pathetic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/FW190A6sigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
08-24-2004, 02:43 PM
jeah, just count all the my "insertanalliedeplanehere" is not performing right.

and then count the my "insertgermanfighterhere" threads and you'll notice that it is about equal.

btw: i realy would like to see some PanzerblitzI (not II) for the FW190F and G-versions such as a Droptank and a Bomb for the D9 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
and give the 190F and G's the small 4xSC70 stuff (instead of one big centerBomb) the early 109s can carry (4xSC50)

and well, since we do have YP80 and Go229 and I185 and 109Z and stuff, what would be wrong to add a 190D9 with A-Lader?
it is just a copy and paste-job not even redisign required, just copy and paste the 44 Dora, rename the new one to FW190D9late44 and done so what's about it ?

http://home.arcor.de/sebastianleitiger/other%20Stuff/we%20rule%20your%20world3.jpg (http://www.hell-hounds.de)

LEXX_Luthor
08-24-2004, 06:11 PM
Agreed, only two (2) Axis single engine prop fighters and hundreds of "ally" fighters.

He~100D would help though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Italians will help Balance Euro fighter numbers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif Too bad for the Hollywood plane fans that they don't go into 1944+


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BBB_Hyperion
08-24-2004, 08:21 PM
thx lrrp22

How long could the boost run with 150 octan or 100 octan fuel and which performance difference was between the 2 fuel types.

Here you can find some data for dora 9 with etc 504 bombrack .
http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/DoraData/horizontalgeschwindigkeiten.htm

C3=96 octan

640 km/h for dora with bombrack and A lader.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

p1ngu666
08-24-2004, 09:13 PM
i think octane is how high a pressure/heat it can take before it explodes by itself.
im not entirely sure tho, could depend on stuff in the fuel also
but if first is correct, then running 150 at 100 settings would be of no advantage

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lrrp22
08-24-2004, 10:34 PM
There were no additional restrictions placed on the use of 150 octane and 80"/+25 WEP. It had the same 5-minute 'limit' as 67" WEP.

The 5-minute limit was designed with engine longevity in mind and not any kind of imminent engine damage or failure. In fact, the P-51D pilot's manual states that one 60 minute session of max power isn't necessarily any worse for the engine than 12 5-minute periods of max power. In other words, the 5-minute limit is a suggestion to promote longer engine life and not an engine damage limit.

Certainly running at increased max boost was harder on the engine, but more in terms of shorter overall engine life than engine failure.


Also, keep in mind that the D-9 "A lader" modification has never been proven to be an operational configuration. No one can really even explain what it is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
thx lrrp22

How long could the boost run with 150 octan or 100 octan fuel and which performance difference was between the 2 fuel types.

Here you can find some data for dora 9 with etc 504 bombrack .
http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/DoraData/horizontalgeschwindigkeiten.htm

C3=96 octan

640 km/h for dora with bombrack and A lader.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BBB_Hyperion
08-24-2004, 11:09 PM
Charts still exists tho even when no one knows excatly what it is .)

As i posted above la7 low alt boost system compressor could show remarkable performance .
It wouldnt surprise me when this boost system had been developed from captured la5fn or planes with similar low alt boost.

So far its known that it was a low alt compressor different to standard version.

Maybe the engine got tweaked for low alt usage too. The Jumo is optimized for medium alts.

With the maxclimbrates there is mentioned not to use full power in climb cause cyclinder might make trouble. In this game however you can use it without problems.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

robban75
08-25-2004, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Charts still exists tho even when no one knows excatly what it is .)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bury speculates that "red 13" flown by JV44 might have been fitted with this engine.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Dora's fitted with this engine. Late in the war the Germans even fielded prototypes and flew them in combat.

A D-9 with C3 fuel and Erh√¬∂rte Notleistung was almost as fast, 621km/h at SL. This is the variant we have in FB/AEP listed as the 1944 D-9, it is however much to slow at low alts in game, but it's topspeed at alt is correct. Hopefully Oleg will look into this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

lrrp22
08-25-2004, 09:08 AM
What configuration does the 621 kph represent? Is that from the chart that shows the 213A operating at 2.2 ata? As far as I know operational D-9's never exceeded 1.8 ata.

I have seen 'Red 13' mentioned as a possible 'A lader' example before. Is that based on the comment by one of the pilots (Faber?) that 'Red 13' seemed to be faster than the rest of the flight's Doras? "Red 13' was also an early production model- it may have had a fresh replacement engine.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Charts still exists tho even when no one knows excatly what it is .)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bury speculates that "red 13" flown by JV44 might have been fitted with this engine.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Dora's fitted with this engine. Late in the war the Germans even fielded prototypes and flew them in combat.

A D-9 with C3 fuel and Erh√¬∂rte Notleistung was almost as fast, 621km/h at SL. This is the variant we have in FB/AEP listed as the 1944 D-9, it is however much to slow at low alts in game, but it's topspeed at alt is correct. Hopefully Oleg will look into this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Willey
08-25-2004, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Here you can find some data for dora 9 with etc 504 bombrack .
http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/DoraData/horizontalgeschwindigkeiten.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, these ones:

http://home.arcor.de/eldur/bilder/d9speeds.jpg

That's the data I used. Do NOT forget about the bomb rack!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For speeds without the ETC 501 ordanace rack add 8 km/h (5 mph) below and 12 km/h (7.5 mph) above critical engine (6.5km). Since the ETC 504 had a slightly better drag coefficient I would estimate speed penalty of about 6km/h (3.7mph)to 10km/h(6.2mph).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That means the A-Lader Dora does 646 at SL and 704 at 3500m http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif without the rack.

Did I mention already that these speeds in that chart are with bomb rack?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Willey
08-25-2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
The 5-minute limit was designed with engine longevity in mind and not any kind of imminent engine damage or failure. In fact, the P-51D pilot's manual states that one 60 minute session of max power isn't necessarily any worse for the engine than 12 5-minute periods of max power. In other words, the 5-minute limit is a suggestion to promote longer engine life and not an engine damage limit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet it's not very different with British, Russian and German planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I already said once, that the Spitfire is the only plane that is close to realistic in engine overheat and resulting damage...

Willey
08-25-2004, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
What configuration does the 621 kph represent? Is that from the chart that shows the 213A operating at 2.2 ata? As far as I know operational D-9's never exceeded 1.8 ata.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The chart sais 615 for C3 Sondernotleistung with ETC 504 rack. Add 6 kph, and you'll have 621 without rack, for the '44 Dora, how it's named in FB. It's not 2.2ata

robban75
08-25-2004, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
What configuration does the 621 kph represent? Is that from the chart that shows the 213A operating at 2.2 ata? As far as I know operational D-9's never exceeded 1.8 ata.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's represented on this chart. http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/d9speed2chart.jpg
This chart also shows the A-lader Dora aswell as the B4 fuel MW50 boosted Dora.

Read Bury's explanations on the different boosts here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/Dora.htm

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

lrrp22
08-25-2004, 10:12 AM
Willey,

I think your probably right.

I have read a JG 26 account, I believe in the 'Green Hearts' book, of a Dora pilot forgetting to pull back from combat power after making a low-level escape. He flew all the way back to his field at emergency power without engine failure, although he did completely melt his exhaust stacks!

However, I have read several pilot accounts that state that the DB605D's Sonder-Notliestung was not used for more than a minute or two.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
The 5-minute limit was designed with engine longevity in mind and not any kind of imminent engine damage or failure. In fact, the P-51D pilot's manual states that one 60 minute session of max power isn't necessarily any worse for the engine than 12 5-minute periods of max power. In other words, the 5-minute limit is a suggestion to promote longer engine life and not an engine damage limit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet it's not very different with British, Russian and German planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I already said once, that the Spitfire is the only plane that is close to realistic in engine overheat and resulting damage...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

robban75
08-25-2004, 10:18 AM
The engine overheating at high altitudes seems very strange aswell. I remember reading a Swedish book on the J26(P-51). The pilots stated that during the winter time, the radiator was kept shut during the entire flight as not to cool the engine too much.

At high altitudes the temperature is very cold, even during the summertime.

Should engines overheat at all at the higher altitudes? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

lrrp22
08-25-2004, 10:27 AM
Thanks, Robban.

What's your opinion regarding the 2240 PS figure? I tend to agree with Bury that it likely reflects the 'A-lader' mod's low level output. It would go a long way towards explaining the dotted line on the 213 power chart as well as the A lader's low-level speed increase.

It would be nice to have the kind of supporting documentation found for the various British tests available for all the different air arms.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:

It's represented on this chart. http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/d9speed2chart.jpg
This chart also shows the A-lader Dora aswell as the B4 fuel MW50 boosted Dora.

Read Bury's explanations on the different boosts here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/Dora.htm

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

p1ngu666
08-25-2004, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
The engine overheating at high altitudes seems very strange aswell. I remember reading a Swedish book on the J26(P-51). The pilots stated that during the winter time, the radiator was kept shut during the entire flight as not to cool the engine too much.

At high altitudes the temperature is very cold, even during the summertime.

Should engines overheat at all at the higher altitudes? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

probably not, given that your doing 300mph, thru admitidly thinner air but alot colder

radiators where made tobe suffiecent on the ground, once in the air its not really a worry.
if u look at pics of warbirds, how often are they open rad in the air?
not pushing the engines its true, but also trying to run at opteimum temps to prolong there life and reliability.

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BBB_Hyperion
08-25-2004, 10:51 PM
As we know at higher altitudes less air is present that can only partly compensated with supercharger
cause it takes power from the engine as well. The Output HP at high alt reduce in conclusion less air reacts (oxygen) with fuel reducing power output. Shouldnt the heat generated be less than at lower alts ?

Cooling Airflow is also a good point cause air in movement cools more.

As an example http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/31_112.html

Even with no Wind we can estimate to have a moving plane as wind replacement . It doesnt matter if the plane moves or the air moves for a day without wind.

You can see there is quite some effect even when the table is not for planes.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

Willey
08-29-2004, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
The engine overheating at high altitudes seems very strange aswell. I remember reading a Swedish book on the J26(P-51). The pilots stated that during the winter time, the radiator was kept shut during the entire flight as not to cool the engine too much.

At high altitudes the temperature is very cold, even during the summertime.

Should engines overheat at all at the higher altitudes? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, they should NOT! That's one of the biggest errors in FB. Too simple overheat modelling. Let's take a DB-605A for example. It produces 1475hp on the deck, it's peak output is ~1525hp at 2100m and at 8000m it's just ~1000hp. That all with 1.42 ata boost setting. Now this boost is not everything. Why does it have less power up there? Right, thinner air and less oxygen for the combustion. That's why you have to lean out the mixture as you het higher to keep the fuelhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gifxygen mix at the same level. And less oxygen means less fuel at the same time and that'S why there is less power. But also less heat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. You'll also notice that the ata gauge will drop off above a certain altitude. That's where there is not enough air anymore to hold that pressure which is basically a too rich mixture. You have to lean out which means less power. And that's it. Less power. Less heat. And logically no overheating. Even at "110%" throttle setting. Because at 8000m it's just some 60-66% of the power the engine can produce. So the temperatures at 8000m and 110% should be like at 66% on the deck - where you can close the radiators completely.
Not to mention the colder air... at 8000m it's ~ -40 - -70‚?C... that's even more cooling.
Now thinner air is less volumetric flow, but you just have to look at the speed gauge. 400 IAS at 8000m (ca 600 TAS) is the same airflow as 400 IAS on the deck (400 TAS).

To summarise:

What's modelled in FB for temperatures?

- less power at higher alt, less heat - NO
- less heat due to more airflow at higher speeds - YES
- less heat at colder temperatures up high - NO
- basically less heat on colder (winter) maps - YES (try it out, time till overheat on Moscow and Krim QMB)
- less heat with open radiators - YES

The one that is simplified:

- FB just knows % of throttle and radiator setting to get heat value - it doesn't matter how much power there actually is

Willey
08-29-2004, 03:49 PM
I might add 2 examples for closed radiators without overheat.

Steinhoff wrote in "Die Straße von Messina" that he had his radiators almost shut completely (Schnellflugstellung) while flying fast (full throttle) at 6000 or so meters.

The Bell Training video for the P-39D airacobra told the pilots to CLOSE the cooler shutters completely in high alt cruising and in landing procedure not to undercool the engine. It's available at http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/main.html
And we know the P-39 didn't have a very good cooling system...

p1ngu666
08-29-2004, 07:57 PM
ive got some pilot manuals i can look thru, corsair iirec was roughly 2/4 if i remmber for the corsair.
also p47 was to close rad in a dive... tho i think thats more todo with not ripping the flapy bits off

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