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Syndicate_Sabre
02-15-2017, 02:30 AM
Counter Guard Break needs to have its window extended. Plain and simple. Out of extensive testing (Over 2 hours just testing various ways of trying to time counter-guardbreak across different characters) with a friend there is no way to succeed have sufficient timing to successfully break unless you happen to be preparing for a break yourself or the enemy telegraphs their guard break. Anyone claiming otherwise is just talking crap. First they make the window too long and now its too short. They should actually test these changes before pushing them out onto servers. Yes thats what the extensive beta/alpha weekends were for. Yes they have patched it a few times but now its so small its almost RNG. Also spamming break does not work either for those that say "Just spam it". These are the sorts of issues that lead to community size dying. I have heard a surprising number of people complaining about this in open matches. The community size also went from "High" to "Very Low" at the same hours a day later. Add to this the various play-station network issues centered around the exact time of the For_Honor release window. I hope they fix this soon. If anyone else has noticed a similar issue please post. Please do not post without something constructive.

SirCorrino
02-15-2017, 02:34 AM
The main issue now is that if two people use guard break at the same time one person just wins by default and the other fails their chance at countering the guard break. This is ******** and should not happen. Either guard break counters need to go back to how they were in the beta, or there needs to be a window at the very start where if both players activate it at the same time they both cancel each other. The current implementation is just bad, and whoever came up with it should feel bad.

SteewC70
02-15-2017, 02:40 AM
Had a lot of hairpulling matches where my opponent and myself would guardbreak at the same time and they would always win. I couldn't counter no matter what I did and just had to take the throw or heavy attack.

H34DSHOT09
02-15-2017, 07:04 AM
Just got out of a game where that is all they would do is guard break. I have tried countering myself and it just doesn't work like it did in the beta...

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 07:23 AM
The problem i see it with counter-guardbreak is that you have to wait fro like .05 sec after he activates his guardbreak till you can counter it.. then you have a super short window of .25 sec to counter it or it's over for you. The worst is that there is no real indication when the right time to hit the window is. Sometimes it seem this window shifts back and forth and it is so unreliable to hit. Besides as mentioned before that if both activate at the same time one wins other doesnt?

Yes, who ever thought of this should really feel bad, this is a horrible system.

rcwd
02-15-2017, 07:35 AM
The problem i see it with counter-guardbreak is that you have to wait fro like .05 sec after he activates his guardbreak till you can counter it.. then you have a super short window of .25 sec to counter it or it's over for you. The worst is that there is no real indication when the right time to hit the window is. Sometimes it seem this window shifts back and forth and it is so unreliable to hit. Besides as mentioned before that if both activate at the same time one wins other doesnt?

Yes, who ever thought of this should really feel bad, this is a horrible system.

a small shield does pop up on your character when you can counter, but if you're watching your opponent good luck seeing it, and if you do see it good luck getting it with the garbage p2p

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 07:42 AM
i know, there is a symbol indicating when he will guardbreak... but if he attacks the arrow will blink at the moment when you can parry it, that indicate the right moment. While guard break does not blink to show yopu when you can actually reliably do this, there is always some kind of random factor where you have to wait till the person connects and then maybe you manage to get it in.

But the worst is, guardbreak is so deadly combined with environment and all, it should be easy to counter it. I don't understand why they changed it from the beta version, it was so much better.

oitherecy
02-15-2017, 07:46 AM
BOOOOOOOM! these peeps have the right idea the guard break is a ***** especially in fights when you're outnumbered its hard to get your timing as perfect as they'd like it when you're getting ****ed from 2 or more sides. and guard-breaks activated withing a certain time of each other should cancel each other out i feel rather than the ******** coin flip stuff that tends to happen. maybe if you could counter it the moment you see it rather than having to delay your timing it'd be a bit better. still loving the game and hope they'll fix some of the niggles. also poison is a **** mechanic. just saying ahah. play well and have fun peeps.:cool::cool::cool::p:p:p

Derity
02-15-2017, 07:55 AM
Yeah I dont understand why they changed this I don't remember anyone asking for this change.

It is too fustrating when you're like "BUT I PRESSED GUARDBREAK!!!" lol

The new cancel window is basically as soon as the Guardbreak symbol disappears on your opponent... which literally makes 0 sense. Why wouldn't they put it at the start of the Guardbreak??

The frustrating thing about the Guardbreak Interrupt has ALWAYS BEEN the fact that you can press it too early and get punished. I think if they really wanna fix Guardbreak, you need to make it so you can never be "too early" you can only be "too late". If my opponent does a Guardbreak and I press Guardbreak before his one lands, that should be a cancel. And then if that window is too big, speed up all guardbreak animations across the board.

Masked_Yurei
02-15-2017, 07:55 AM
Guard break has been a problem since the closed alpha, it has always been reasonably impossible to counter unless you are already preparing for one. And thus, environmental damage is horribly overpowered because there is no proper way to stop players from killing you instantly. And, players can spam guardbreaks to shut down their opponents stamina.

But these issues are currently drops in a pond at the moment.

Hibs.
02-15-2017, 08:01 AM
How can people say it wasn't good in the last open beta and the test before that? It was more then possible to tec it. You'd see the little shield icon and hit the button. Never had a problem with it. It was perfect.

Now? It's clunky as hell and gives you no chance in 4vs4 with multiple opponents spamming guard-break at you with the new timing. Even in 1vs1s it blows. It was damn near perfect before.

Also, what the hell is the point of the guard-break icon now with the change. It's completely off.

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 08:03 AM
I think that guardbreak is one of the major issues of so many frustrating moments though, because it is such a core aspect of the game combined with the environment. It is simply an abomination and who would ever ask to make it harder to counter it? It was already a gamble, now it is almost impossible and punished so severly it is not joke.

I used to love environment in alpha/beta, it generally adds a lot of depth to the game, but like i mentioned before, since it is so powerful to abuse it, it should and must be easy to counter it. The guardbrea/counter was really good once you had the hang of it, and it was great the way it was, why change something that is not broken, work on something that needs fixing... well in this case the this pile!

Masked_Yurei
02-15-2017, 08:07 AM
I think that guardbreak is one of the major issues of so many frustrating moments though, because it is such a core aspect of the game combined with the environment. It is simply an abomination and who would ever ask to make it harder to counter it? It was already a gamble, now it is almost impossible and punished so severly it is not joke.

I used to love environment in alpha/beta, it generally adds a lot of depth to the game, but like i mentioned before, since it is so powerful to abuse it, it should and must be easy to counter it.

The entire game is like this however.


No proper counter to ganks.

No proper counter to guard break spam.

No proper counter to attack spam.

No proper counter to sidestep spam.

No proper counter to backstep spam.

No proper counter to unique attack spam.


Basically, the developers took into zero account the fact that normal players exploit everything they can. And thus they left dozens of loopholes in the system because the developers and their testers did not exploit them, ignoring the fact that players who are given the time to learn them will.

The closed alpha was unplayable by day three because of this, and the game has literally not changed at all. In many ways it has gotten even worse, with new classes with their own spammable abilities and the addition of sidestep/backstep spam into the meta list.

This game is fun when you play it with people who do not know what they are doing. Most experienced players abuse meta, and thus this will only get worse the longer from day one this game exists.

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 08:16 AM
The entire game is like this however.


No proper counter to ganks.

No proper counter to guard break spam.

No proper counter to attack spam.

No proper counter to sidestep spam.

No proper counter to backstep spam.

No proper counter to unique attack spam.


Basically, the developers took into zero account the fact that normal players exploit everything they can. And thus they left dozens of loopholes in the system because the developers and their testers did not exploit them, ignoring the fact that players who are given the time to learn them will.

The closed alpha was unplayable by day three because of this, and the game has literally not changed at all. In many ways it has gotten even worse, with new classes with their own spammable abilities and the addition of sidestep/backstep spam into the meta list.

This game is fun when you play it with people who do not know what they are doing. Most experienced players abuse meta, and thus this will only get worse the longer from day one this game exists.

I personally dont see that many problems with what you listed there.

Ganks are just what they are and your counter is revenge, is it fair? no but that is alright, it's part of multiplayer and you need to adapt and use it.

GB spam would be fine if it maybe use more of your stamina if it fails, and the counter actually worked.

Dodging does what it should, maybe use a bit of stamina would make this better. (sidestep/backstep)

And unique attack spam just need to be looked at with some characters, because they have often to many options that come with it. Like Wardens shoulder bash for example...

But none of the following is as serious of an issue as the new guardbreak imo.

feuerundblut
02-15-2017, 08:22 AM
Guardbreak should only exist as a follow up on a successful enemy block and not as an ability by itself. If the enemy is parrying properly, you are the one in danger but if he only blocks, you have a window to guardbreak because it means you had the opportunity to get much closer to him and you exploited it.

The same for side stepping, in some cases, light attacks should prevail over side steps. It would not interrupt them but it should at least give some damages.

DemoAdra
02-15-2017, 09:04 AM
Gaurd brake is a F**king JOKE yes, but UBI dont listen to **** even if they say they will.

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 09:05 AM
Gaurd brake is a F**king JOKE yes, but UBI dont listen to **** even if they say they will.

I think Ubisoft has actually listened to many things mentioned by the community, did lots of improvements, just sometimes they add things like this and makes me wonder wtf they were thinking.

Hydrophobiac
02-15-2017, 09:09 AM
Counter Guard Break needs to have its window extended. Plain and simple. Out of extensive testing (Over 2 hours just testing various ways of trying to time counter-guardbreak across different characters) with a friend there is no way to succeed have sufficient timing to successfully break unless you happen to be preparing for a break yourself or the enemy telegraphs their guard break. Anyone claiming otherwise is just talking crap. First they make the window too long and now its too short. They should actually test these changes before pushing them out onto servers. Yes thats what the extensive beta/alpha weekends were for. Yes they have patched it a few times but now its so small its almost RNG. Also spamming break does not work either for those that say "Just spam it". These are the sorts of issues that lead to community size dying. I have heard a surprising number of people complaining about this in open matches. The community size also went from "High" to "Very Low" at the same hours a day later. Add to this the various play-station network issues centered around the exact time of the For_Honor release window. I hope they fix this soon. If anyone else has noticed a similar issue please post. Please do not post without something constructive.

I swear I had to come here just confirm my doubts about the GBC, Yea I sat hours aswell in training trying to perfect the new timing system for guard break counters and it seems the frame is way too small. In a game where being grabbed can be your immediate death (Thrown off the map, or combo'd.) this needs to be addressed ASAP. Grabbing is very casual friendly and can be spammed with X,X. But countering it needs the timing of jesus? Absolutely unacceptable.

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 09:31 AM
I swear I had to come here just confirm my doubts about the GBC, Yea I sat hours aswell in training trying to perfect the new timing system for guard break counters and it seems the frame is way too small. In a game where being grabbed can be your immediate death (Thrown off the map, or combo'd.) this needs to be addressed ASAP. Grabbing is very casual friendly and can be spammed with X,X. But countering it needs the timing of jesus? Absolutely unacceptable.

Yea, it was shocking when i did the advance tutorial to get the extra 1,5k steel for completion and the first thing is you try to learn to counter break (which was simple and perfect in beta) and it took me forever to simply get 3 in... then i thought i need to pratice this for longer and to get it right, and no matter how much i thought i had figured out the perfect timing, 2-3 guardbreaks later it seems like it has shifted... maybe ping or lag, but in multiplayer this is even more unlikely to be able to work, and needs to be simple enough, otherwise there are to many deadly options to abuse this and that needs fixing ASAP!

Nimassus91
02-15-2017, 09:41 AM
And i thought my Conqueror became less responsive since beta... Maybe that too since sometimes my blocks dont adjust right to the direction i choose.
But back to guardbreak. I had a lot of trouble getting the 3 counter guardbreaks in tutorial with conqueror, but i never had any problems in beta or against players in beta.
Since the full game released, i maybe countered 10/100 guardbreaks, usually resolving in pushes off the edge or other envroimental dangers. And since my character is a damn turtle, guardbreak is all it needs to get rid of him. So yeah, the guardbreak counter has to be set back to beta status, otherwise you just ruined the character more than you already have.
The otherthing with these guardbreak wins by default is as edgy as the horrible guardbreak counter. Most of the time, i decide to guardbreak since i definately would grab him and knock him out. So i go in for guardbreak, see no indicator for my opponent to guardbreak me, so i should win. All of a sudden, his indicator pops up, no guard break counter but he got me instead the other way around.
Whatever Ubisoft did to guardbreak needs to be reversed. There are much to much ways to win by guardbreak only, to make the action itself super irresponsive.

feuerundblut
02-15-2017, 10:02 AM
There is a much simpler solution to this: guardbreak should be punished by attacks. Attacks should always have the priority over it. This way, no need of other counters cause guardbreak is supposed to punish someone who is too defensive, not everyone trying to fight.

WingedHussar_PL
02-15-2017, 10:07 AM
It works a ltiile different now. You should press key not when he started but when he touch you. It's more logical anyway and generally you have more time for this. Tutorial is now obsolete because it teach that you should do that in old style - when red shield icon is visible but now this icon is like alert that you should prepare for counter attack. So you should do this after ~0,5 second after that.

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 10:15 AM
It works a ltiile different now. You should press key not when he started but when he touch you. It's more logical anyway and generally you have more time for this. Tutorial is now obsolete because it teach that you should do that in old style - when red shield icon is visible but now this icon is like alert that you should prepare for counter attack. So you should do this after ~0,5 second after that.

The problem with that, the counter-guradbreak is super unreliable and since guardbreak in itself is so super powerful combined with other things like the environment, it needs to be they way it was, easy to counter. Otherwise you reward people for abusing a easy mechanic that is hard to counter far to heavily.

WingedHussar_PL
02-15-2017, 10:24 AM
The problem with that, the counter-guradbreak is super unreliable and since guardbreak in itself is so super powerful combined with other things like the environment, it needs to be they way it was, easy to counter. Otherwise you reward people for abusing a easy mechanic that is hard to counter far to heavily.

I though the same but when I teach how it works now ( different than in beta ) most of them I can counter now. But still the best way is to keep distance :)

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 10:36 AM
I though the same but when I teach how it works now ( different than in beta ) most of them I can counter now. But still the best way is to keep distance :)

I could maybe live with the changes if they werent so damn random and actually had a real indicator like attacks show the red arrow, and the red arrow blinks when you can reliably parry/deflect. Guardbreak just doesnt have that. It seems sometimes you have to wait for the connect of the guardbreak and othertimes you have to do it just before that. The window to execute that counter is simply to small and like i mentioned seems to shift, depending on the ping/lag of the game making it nearly impossible often to work with.

Knight_Raime
02-15-2017, 11:11 AM
Ah yes. the "if you disagree with me you're wrong" argument whilst not posting any evidence of your own. Bravo.
I've been watching people stream since launch and plenty of people are still able to tech a GB when they want to.
Funny thing is you say spamming it is the only way to tech it...when I heard the same thing in the betas.

I honestly don't care how it used to be or how it is currently. I care about what it looks like when people are actually good at this game. and right now GB's are too easy to tech. so if they indeed tightened the window on when you have to try and tech that makes me happy. defensive play in this game is far too rewarding anyway imo.

Dez_troi_aR
02-15-2017, 11:18 AM
I was very frustrated by guardbreaking in the beta, too but i can do it quite well now.

It is not supposed to be reacted to but predicted+reacted. YOu have to exclude its use by spacing and light attacks. Guard breaks beeing there keep the game from becoming too defensive. If they could be blocked easily, they would loose their value and fights would become much more slow paced.


So i disagree. They are fine now

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 11:52 AM
I was very frustrated by guardbreaking in the beta, too but i can do it quite well now.

It is not supposed to be reacted to but predicted+reacted. YOu have to exclude its use by spacing and light attacks. Guard breaks beeing there keep the game from becoming too defensive. If they could be blocked easily, they would loose their value and fights would become much more slow paced.


So i disagree. They are fine now

I agree with you that the gaurdbreak is there to keep people from turtling and the game from becoming to defensive... the issue i just see is that GB is to unreliable, the timeframe needs to be adjusted some atleast. GB is simply to strong for how easy it is, while the counter needs perfection and if you miss it you can instantly die? I dunno, i don't call that balancing.

Colt-556
02-15-2017, 12:29 PM
Guardbreak is going to be the thing that makes me quit the game. It's just too damned good for what it is. It SHOULD be a way of getting through turtling players, but now it's the go-to way of beating people. I've had fights that were nothing but attacks and guard-breaks, because for a lot of heroes a successful guard-break is a guaranteed hit, and for some of those heroes that's a LOT of free damage.

Guardbreak needs to be nerfed, hard. It should be one of many-skills, not the be-all end-all of PVP.

Fardriven
02-15-2017, 01:39 PM
The mandatory post for counter guard breaking.
For old players the window remains the same it has just been moved around 0,5 seconds later.
For new players or people struggling. Go into advanced practice and get 100% counter there. Then jump into a match and find the perfect timing there too(It changes a little because of connectivity)
Also If you are certain someone is going to guard break you, you can attack him to stop it. While you are attacking he can't guard break you so I recommend heavy attack while you are at it.
Don't try to dodge out of a guard break! The enemy will just follow you. The game is half reflexes and half premonition always keep that in mind. If you are not mentally prepared for a guard break you are going to get grabbed. If there are environment kills on the map and you are struggling with countering, move away for them and choose the place you are going to fight.
Now about the 2 people guard breaking thingy that happens. I hadn't noticed it in previous version of the game so I assume it was added or rather tweaked. From my personal experience the second person who pressed guard break but isn't grabbed(there is like half a second in the beginning when you are not grabbed) will grab the other one. Meaning if you want to counter and press it too soon you are getting grabbed anyways. In previous installations you would just grab the enemy. Granted the time windows is so small that you can't really time it so most of the times it is and looks random rather than a skill based system. Still I think it is there to accommodate the new 0.5 delay on countering.

Personally I don't believe countering should be any easier. The attacker must put pressure on the defender. He can do that through attacks, feints, specials and guard breaking and all of them must be a force to be reckoned with. The defender can parry, feint, (usually dodge but it depends on situation) and counter guard break respectively. If you remove one of them you lighten pressure and make it easier for the defender to deal with the rest. If you make no mistakes the enemy can't deal damage to you so it must be made so you make mistakes due to pressure, The alternative would be to have 100% methods to deal damage on the attackers part but that would be less fun for everyone.

Devil_Sparda
02-15-2017, 01:47 PM
from my expirience, hope to not have more than 20 ms of pings.. and a good host, or you are done.. a little bit of latency is enough to deny the chance to counter BG
on top of that, when i trying to fish BG ( luring your opponent in some ways to push him try a BG), i m always screwed.. no matter what.. spamming the key or press it at the right moment
feelsbadman

Biocoast
02-15-2017, 02:11 PM
After tinkering and trying the counter to guardbreak a bit more, the window to hit the counter is so ridiculousy small now that it's almost impossible to counter that GB in the midst of battle, sure people with super good reflexes and all will probably counter one or the other, but it seems that in order to GB you have to wait approx as long as a light attack to counter it, with guradbreak not being as obvious as any swing will come out of nowhere unless being in a really predictable place that even when you see the GB icon pop up, like i mentioned before, so hard to hit that sweet moment because you dont have the indication when the counter could be possible.

Besides the moment when 2 people hit GB at the same time, the person hitting it likely first (or with the better connection?) wins is IMO not necessarily a good mechanic, since this doesn't really rely on skill anylonger.

Despite these changes i think the new mechanic could maybe work if the time frame would be adjusted a bit and indicated like any other attack in order to have a chance to counter it. With the quick reflexes it requires right now to hit the perfect timing, that can only be guessed, to counter a "light attack" fast mechanic which can ultimatively instant kill you, it is far to hard to manage and is beyond a get good issue and needs some serious love. And let's not forget this still runs online, with a P2P setup (even with dedicated servers) and there will always be ping/lag that will shift that sliver of timeframe to counter around a bit.

I am all up for it to invest my time and learn mechanics and addapt to them, but in this case it's just a thing that has to many flaws to work and causes to many unnecesary frustrating moments.

khromtx
02-15-2017, 04:38 PM
What I found out in regards to Guardbreak is instead of just "tapping" X when you see the red broken shield, it simply DOES. NOT. WORK. I've found you have to actually MASH X in order to Counter it. Ludicrous.

Skeesti
02-15-2017, 04:41 PM
I can't understand how it sometimes works perfectly and sometimes just not at all. It's ****ing mindblowing how **** this is.

Kylar.Z
02-15-2017, 04:44 PM
I can't understand how it sometimes works perfectly and sometimes just not at all. It's ****ing mindblowing how **** this is.

P2P connection thats how

khromtx
02-15-2017, 04:46 PM
To those saying that if you Guardbreak at the same exact time as someone else, it should cancel:

Coming from a Network / IT background, achieving something like that is virtually impossible, not to mention the fact that this game is P2P (2007 called they want their multiplayer system back)

The latency between different states and the varying internet connection speeds, even with the added measures to compensate for those issues like ping, ultimately unless you're on LAN, it simply isn't possible to cancel out Guardbreaks if each user does it at the same time unless there were a frame window of some sort of say, milliseconds or so (If player X Guardbreak falls within x-y range, and Player Z Guardbreak falls within x-y range = Cancel)

khromtx
02-15-2017, 05:07 PM
If course that is how it works. In fighting games since forever.
You get iframes against certain moves on execution. Easiest thing in the world.

You know that and I know that but there seems to be a misunderstanding amongst plenty of people.

DrExtrem
02-15-2017, 05:09 PM
The main issue now is that if two people use guard break at the same time one person just wins by default and the other fails their chance at countering the guard break. This is ******** and should not happen. Either guard break counters need to go back to how they were in the beta, or there needs to be a window at the very start where if both players activate it at the same time they both cancel each other. The current implementation is just bad, and whoever came up with it should feel bad.

I had that in my last match vs. a bot. We were on a bridge both me and the bot used gb and I went down the bridge. In my tv, was faster but I was send flying. Lag, input delay and the extreme narrow time window makes it horrible to play.

Today I played custom matches without dmg against several level 2 bots. Countering GB, counter strikes, parrying ... They are simply not working right now. I did the same thing in the open beta and it was not necessarily easier but reliable. ATM its simply an unfair "i win button", that is not used to punish turtle tactics but to instakill.

Additionally, it gets old when the AI is constantly ignoring game mechanics like interrupts, stagger etc.


Edit:
I recorded the bridge fight and my gb was faster - at least when I listen. The bots time window was 9 frames long ... the one of my character 12. Ouch. 300 milliseconds - to react and press the button. Impossible. - especially, when you just hit the button to perform a gb by yourself.