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Giggley-puff
02-14-2017, 07:01 PM
So, my husband and his family are Buddhist. He was very excited to play the samurai class and made a shield emblem relevant to it.

His shield is simple with a white Manji on it. If you don't know, a Manji is a Buddhist symbol of sun and life, simply put. It is on many Buddhist statues you see and almost every homes shrine has this statue. Well, a ton of players were trying to report him for his emblem. He tried to explain to them it is a Manji, not a swastika, but obviously, they were having none of that.

A swastika is usually surrounded by a circle and is tilted at a 45-degree angle while the shapes in a Manji are horizontally straight. The 'arms' can be facing left or right depending on what Asian culture or religion uses it.

It's funny how so many people do not know this. I thought with the internet at our fingertips more people would know that the image was originally used in many cultures in different styles as a form of peace or symbolism until Hitler hijacked it.

1. Manji vs Swastika
http://assets.change.org/photos/5/gb/ql/MbGbQlHlmKDBZan-1600x900-noPad.jpg?1453559533

Biocoast
02-14-2017, 07:04 PM
Understand what you mean, still in our culture either symbol is upsetting because both are so very similar and triggers negative emotions even with different meanings

PlagueGripes
02-14-2017, 07:24 PM
I was curious if they'd just not have the symbol in Germany, considering how hardcore they are about things like that.

CoyoteXStarrk
02-14-2017, 07:30 PM
Sorry I get what you are saying, but racists and trolls will exploit the loophole to use abhorrent symbols as their shields.




So no. Anything remotely similar to the Swastika will be reported in my book.

MisterGuyMan
02-14-2017, 07:37 PM
So was your husband allowed to continue using the Manji symbol? If so there's no issue. I personally would side with you on this but my support means little unforunately.

H3adl3ssChicken
02-14-2017, 07:38 PM
So, my husband and his family are Buddhist. He was very excited to play the samurai class and made a shield emblem relevant to it.

His shield is simple with a white Manji on it. If you don't know, a Manji is a Buddhist symbol of sun and life, simply put. It is on many Buddhist statues you see and almost every homes shrine has this statue. Well, a ton of players were trying to report him for his emblem. He tried to explain to them it is a Manji, not a swastika, but obviously, they were having none of that.

A swastika is usually surrounded by a circle and is tilted at a 45-degree angle while the shapes in a Manji are horizontally straight. The 'arms' can be facing left or right depending on what Asian culture or religion uses it.

It's funny how so many people do not know this. I thought with the internet at our fingertips more people would know that the image was originally used in many cultures in different styles as a form of peace or symbolism until Hitler hijacked it.

1. Manji vs Swastika
http://assets.change.org/photos/5/gb/ql/MbGbQlHlmKDBZan-1600x900-noPad.jpg?1453559533

In my in-laws' home (they are Korean) it's pronounced wan zi. I was just wondering if you could shed some light on that as well. I'm sure I can ask my mother-in-law the next time I see her, but you appear to be very knowledgeable. Also with a language barrier being there between my oma and I, I don't want to risk offending her with an oafish or disrespectful question, but I do really want to know the reason for the different pronunciations. Thanks in advance for any time and attention you can put towards this.

RatedChaotic
02-14-2017, 07:39 PM
Can also mean the coming of the Four Winds. Most people only know the symbol because of WWII. The majority will go straight for the racists meaning every time.

Using it either way does not bother me at all. We kicked that *** in WWII and Indian culture is interesting.

Kynlore
02-14-2017, 07:40 PM
It's funny how so many people do not know this. I thought with the internet at our fingertips more people would know that the image was originally used in many cultures in different styles as a form of peace or symbolism until Hitler hijacked it.


Honestly, how can you expect someone to know this? Who spends their time on the internet Googling "meaning behind Buddhist symbol'?

The meaning of words or symbols can change over time, or with different cultures. Fifty years ago a certain word meant "happy", now it refers to a homosexual. Some time ago a certain symbol meant "peace" (I have no idea what it truly means as I haven't bothered to look it up on the internet), but now it means something different.

The images are not the same but are close enough for people to mistake the two.

RatedChaotic
02-14-2017, 07:49 PM
I went with the battle flag symbol of the templars....hopefully i dont get extremely vetted cuz it looks like a muslim countrys flag.

HumaTheGreatt
02-14-2017, 07:56 PM
They who report Swastika, spam "Deus Vult" everywhere.Racist hypocrites. its all same and must be punished.
Sorry for your husband by the way.

cawatrooper9
02-14-2017, 08:21 PM
It's a shame, but you can hardly blame those who report. The vast majority of westerners are going to see that as a swastika, circle around it or not.

I do wish we lived in a world where your husband was able to use this symbol that is meaningful to him, but I'm afraid it's simply not going to work. If a language had the word "thank you" pronounced as "fire", then it's likely that speakers of that language would probably have to find another way to express gratitude in a theater. In western culture, the Manji is simply never going to escape the terrible shadow of the swastika.

XORaptor0
02-14-2017, 08:46 PM
I really hope your husband can continue to use that symbol. It's not fair censor a symbol with significant meaning to a culture just because some people get their panties in a wad.

RatedChaotic
02-14-2017, 08:58 PM
Wikipedia is your only source? Native Indians also used this symbol long ago and the word swastika is not even listed in their teachings of the symbol. So your comment "but it is a swastika" is false.

You like others have experienced this symbol in a negative way. But that doesnt mean its a bad symbol. I would just change it. It will save you from the drama in the long run.

KrazyAsian911
02-14-2017, 09:16 PM
Everyone knows about the swastika because of Hitler, and we all learned about Hitler in school. Hitlers swastika did not come first. It's been around for thousands of years, people adopting the symbol into their own cultures, but Hitler literally corrupted it and its peaceful meaning, thus everyone reporting those who use it for good, not for bad. There really is a huge difference though to Hitlers swastika and the Manji. I have been into Asian gift stores and the Buddhist statues you will see have the symbol on its chest, even the offering bowls have the symbol on it. I think it is wrong to consider this symbol as offensive. I trust Ubisoft will do their research before banning or suspending people's emblems.

Nikaa47
02-14-2017, 09:36 PM
The problem is then you open the gates for everyone that wants to use a Nazi symbol.
You either allow it or you don't, but as it's essentially the same symbol so you are then allowing the symbol the Nazis used.
if it appeared on a Buddhist statue in the game it might be a different matter, but if it's on a Vikings shield?

The northern cultures also knew it and used it so it would be no problem.

Waynedetta40k
02-14-2017, 10:05 PM
As if forbidding symbols will help to fight nationalism and racism.
They find new ones and I honestly think people report him just because they like to report someone.
Its not the same symbol nazis used therefore allow it.
People who report for false reason should not be able to report further or be punished for false reports and threaten to report someone should definatly be punished.
If you really need to report, do it you do not have to threaten people with it.

Nikaa47
02-14-2017, 10:07 PM
You know what I mean, if you're claiming it's Buddhist ...
Anywhere, there is never going to be 'no problem' with it, which I think you also know.
I've played enough multiplayer games to know what happens when you let people make emblems.
Now in this case with Samurai you could make a very good case for being allowed to use the Manji symbol.
But let's not pretend we live in a world where everyone who uses a Swastika is a fan of Buddhism.

Yes i know and i didnt say it would be ok. What i wanted to say is that claiming it as buddhist only would be ridiculous because the symbol in all its variations itself is older than buddhism.

Hardcore47Hero
02-14-2017, 11:04 PM
As if forbidding symbols will help to fight nationalism and racism.
They find new ones and I honestly think people report him just because they like to report someone.
Its not the same symbol nazis used therefore allow it.
People who report for false reason should not be able to report further or be punished for false reports and threaten to report someone should definatly be punished.
If you really need to report, do it you do not have to threaten people with it.
Is anyone really under the delusion that every reported emblem gets inspected by a game dev? it probably uses the same system every game uses to report emblems, if X amount of people report the same emblem it gets flagged and the owner is ordered to change it. I'm not claiming to know this is how it works, I only assume based on my past experiences with the Xbox Live systems they use to ban anything deemed offensive by others.

As for whether the OPs husband should be allowed to keep his Manji symbol for his emblem, unfortunately I think they don't care about the underlying truth behind a symbol, if people find it offensive it doesn't really matter whether their only offended because of their own ignorance, from a strictly practical standpoint it has the same effect as a Swastika for too many people, therefore i don't see them allowing it.

SamKaiser
02-14-2017, 11:15 PM
I'm sorry people are confusing it, however I do feel like the usage by the Nazi party is kind of notable, especially in the 21st century. In a similar way the term Aryan didn't mean "White", however like many things the Nazis corrupted it/popularized the corruption. Honestly, while it means many things other than the usage w/Nazis, I feel it's removal might be warranted to prevent overt abuse of it.

Allyrion8
02-14-2017, 11:26 PM
If Hitler had used the cross instead, would it be okay to ban that symbol? The swastika is an important symbol in Hinduism and still used today commonly.

I understand why it gets reported since some people don't get the meaning. That's reasonable but it shouldn't be banned regardless. That just propagates the image's association with the Nazis when it was stolen.

It should only be banned if matches the Nazi version. Otherwise, it should be allowed. I'm sure some people are offended by what their perception of the image but banning that symbol that is considered sacred to many is similarly offensive. It is legitimizing their theft.

Sure it wouldn't be great for people to make it just to troll but they can do that with other holy symbols now. You can't do anything about trolls, you should be above them. Censoring isn't the answer at any rate.

H3adl3ssChicken
02-15-2017, 12:10 AM
My question is why do we single out the swastika as the main symbol of the Nazis. Everyone of their uniforms and standards had an eagle on it. Yet we don't identify the eagle as being primarily a Nazi symbol. The Iron Cross isn't vilified in this manner either. I've seen plenty of people with those symbols on their emblems in the game. Lastly, if the Manji is a selectable symbol within the game then it's pretty obvious that Ubisoft don't really have an issue with it. So I can't see anyone getting banned for using it. So who really gives 2 sh!ts?

Hellhound66
02-15-2017, 12:34 AM
The Do-Gooders will cry a river for it. And you will have to fight a lot of more social justice warriors, I think.

dyrak55
02-24-2017, 06:49 PM
So i use this symbol (Manji) but a lot of people confuse it for Nazi Swastika, will i get banned for it?

Nlghtmal2e
02-24-2017, 07:06 PM
Apparently the origin for the Manji symbol is the Swastika, so you are not being entirely honest with us here, or maybe you don't know this.
It is a Swastika.
If you look up the origin of the Swastika you can see how many cultures adopted it or modified it for their own use, or used the symbol in their alphabets.
But essentially it is a Swastika.
Now, it didn't originate with the Nazis either, so in a way no one has the right to say it is only a Nazi symbol, they adopted it the same as the rest.
The point remains, it is the same symbol the Nazis use, not a completely different, totally innocent one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Even if it's the same symbol , it shouldn't be all considered as a Nazi symbol or an offensive one at that , since the originate of the swastika symbol is as state in the wiki

SiewcaRaka
02-24-2017, 07:08 PM
Manji(or Sauwastika) might stay imo, swastika does not have such right. No matter what it meant before, now its symbol of German murderers.

AgentCelt
02-24-2017, 07:10 PM
The only reason anyone would report an emblem is to be spiteful because they got owned in game. If anyone genuinely gets "offended" by an emblem on a video game then they've got a lot of growing up to do. It's just an emblem.

SiewcaRaka
02-24-2017, 07:12 PM
I think you're confused. They are two distinct symbols. The difference is the direction they are spinning.



Erm...thats why I wrote that Manji known as Sauwastika might stay, while its mirror swastika have no such right as it symbol of German murderers?

A1kanaro
02-24-2017, 07:18 PM
So, my husband and his family are Buddhist. He was very excited to play the samurai class and made a shield emblem relevant to it.

His shield is simple with a white Manji on it. If you don't know, a Manji is a Buddhist symbol of sun and life, simply put. It is on many Buddhist statues you see and almost every homes shrine has this statue. Well, a ton of players were trying to report him for his emblem. He tried to explain to them it is a Manji, not a swastika, but obviously, they were having none of that.

A swastika is usually surrounded by a circle and is tilted at a 45-degree angle while the shapes in a Manji are horizontally straight. The 'arms' can be facing left or right depending on what Asian culture or religion uses it.

It's funny how so many people do not know this. I thought with the internet at our fingertips more people would know that the image was originally used in many cultures in different styles as a form of peace or symbolism until Hitler hijacked it.

1. Manji vs Swastika
http://assets.change.org/photos/5/gb/ql/MbGbQlHlmKDBZan-1600x900-noPad.jpg?1453559533

There is INGAME swastika anyway so I dont get why ppl see it as a problem. The problem becomes REAL when someone is using EXACTLY the nazi swastika - red background, white circle and black symbol turned by 45*. Otherwise its a freaking b*llsh*t to report.

Scorchwind
02-24-2017, 07:28 PM
Ugh, I can't tell apart two symbols and I don't want to educate myself in a way where I will not make rash judgement calls so instead I will punish you for my ignorance ... That's what that sounds like.

If you don't know what you are whining about, save everyone the trouble and read up before making an actual educated reply or just shut the hell up.

PS: part of the nazi symbol is also the use of the colors red, white an black, referring to the warcolors of the German empire. They come as a pair, lesson learned.

Ujir0
02-24-2017, 09:38 PM
So, my husband and his family are Buddhist. He was very excited to play the samurai class and made a shield emblem relevant to it.

His shield is simple with a white Manji on it. If you don't know, a Manji is a Buddhist symbol of sun and life, simply put. It is on many Buddhist statues you see and almost every homes shrine has this statue. Well, a ton of players were trying to report him for his emblem. He tried to explain to them it is a Manji, not a swastika, but obviously, they were having none of that.

A swastika is usually surrounded by a circle and is tilted at a 45-degree angle while the shapes in a Manji are horizontally straight. The 'arms' can be facing left or right depending on what Asian culture or religion uses it.

It's funny how so many people do not know this. I thought with the internet at our fingertips more people would know that the image was originally used in many cultures in different styles as a form of peace or symbolism until Hitler hijacked it.

1. Manji vs Swastika
http://assets.change.org/photos/5/gb/ql/MbGbQlHlmKDBZan-1600x900-noPad.jpg?1453559533


IMO it's nonsense.

Stalin and communism did much worse stuff than Hitler yet the soviet union flag is not forbidden.

It's just a bunch of liberal media getting stuffed down your throat, 90% of the people who were reporting your husband probably don't know **** about history and are just a bunch of SJW who got bullied at school.

Same goes for the "hitler" greeting which is actually from the roman empire/ cesar.

It's anti-bigots performing bigotry.

Yes, you've just entered the twilight zone.

Starcanum
02-24-2017, 10:07 PM
@JigglyPuff - Why not use the dhamma wheel as the symbol instead?

A better question is why should they have to use some other symbol just because some people are too triggered for no reason and not educated enough?

The symbol can't be blamed for their anger issues. Heck, if somebody was using the nazi swastika, why would one have to be offended and they have to be banned? Even if they actually believe in the nazi ideology, it's not one's concern to judge them on that. It's their own decision, and if they act on it, they'll be punished by the law. But choosing swastika as an emblem in a game is not even remotely equal to acting on your destructive ideology.

Now downgrade that to the people who use that symbol without even having that ideology. The symbol itself did nothing wrong.

Now downgrade that to the OP and her husband using the symbol that only shares an origin with the nazi swastika.

Of course people won't forget what was done to their parents/grandparents/great-grandparents etc. But no one asks to forget. Just be reasonable. The symbol united the nazis and instilled fear in the enemies, but there's nothing to fear from it now, especially when you're playing a game. The fact that it reminds you of the terrible things doesn't mean it's bad on its own. More neutral and general things like tanks and airplanes can remind you of the terrible things of that war. Some more subtle things too. My granddad couldn't stand the german speech. But it doesn't mean it should all be forbidden. Yes, things offend people. There's nothing wrong with that. People get over being offended, and there is no need for an actual punishment.

Pope138
02-24-2017, 10:15 PM
I really hope your husband can continue to use that symbol. It's not fair censor a symbol with significant meaning to a culture just because some people get their panties in a wad.

Yeah, it's completely unreasonable to admonish someone for brandishing a symbol appropriated by fascists whose ethnic cleansing killed millions. /s

If you're decent and have the slightest bit of empathy, then you understand that some things outweigh your desire to have a specific emblem IN A FREAKING VIDEO GAME!

GrauWolf_Kull
02-24-2017, 10:57 PM
Sry but... What ever this Simbol means to you.... It means to 80% of the WORLD !

Hilter - WW2 - Horror- And IAM German... So forget about that Symbol, it is and will allways be the Symbol of Hitler, so DONT use it ! :nonchalance:

DerToSch
02-25-2017, 12:51 AM
Basically everybody I've seen with that symbol ingame uses it black on white and red with the "appropriate" gamertag. Have yet to see it used in simple buddhist fashion.

The first version gets reported asap. I'm indifferent to the second one.

drMathlife
02-25-2017, 01:42 AM
IMO it's nonsense.

Stalin and communism did much worse stuff than Hitler yet the soviet union flag is not forbidden.

It's just a bunch of liberal media getting stuffed down your throat, 90% of the people who were reporting your husband probably don't know **** about history and are just a bunch of SJW who got bullied at school.

Same goes for the "hitler" greeting which is actually from the roman empire/ cesar.

It's anti-bigots performing bigotry.

Yes, you've just entered the twilight zone.


Both promoting Stalinism or Hitlerism is forbidden in many (possibly most) countries. If CCCP flag is not forbidden (there are countries in which it is forbidden) its only because it is not associated with Stalin only, while swastica is associated only with nazi.

As for "heil" greeting is NOT from roman empire, we do not have any historical sources explaining how romans greeted each other. The idea that its roman greeting comes from much later paintings (possibly The oath of the Horatii but I'm not sure about which painting was first, knew it once now I can't remember).

As for the Buddhist symbol, I know it, I'm well aware what it means in India and yet I would still report it. I know it has no connotations with nazi yet there is a issue of context.
-I don't mind seeing that symbol in India, I understand its meaning and history
-I do mind seeing anything remotely similar to swastica in Europe or N.America

Ujir0
02-25-2017, 05:15 PM
Both promoting Stalinism or Hitlerism is forbidden in many (possibly most) countries. If CCCP flag is not forbidden (there are countries in which it is forbidden) its only because it is not associated with Stalin only, while swastica is associated only with nazi.

As for "heil" greeting is NOT from roman empire, we do not have any historical sources explaining how romans greeted each other. The idea that its roman greeting comes from much later paintings (possibly The oath of the Horatii but I'm not sure about which painting was first, knew it once now I can't remember).

As for the Buddhist symbol, I know it, I'm well aware what it means in India and yet I would still report it. I know it has no connotations with nazi yet there is a issue of context.
-I don't mind seeing that symbol in India, I understand its meaning and history
-I do mind seeing anything remotely similar to swastica in Europe or N.America

Actually, Hitler adopted the greeting from Mussolini.
Although i cant confirm historically, supposedly mussolini got it from the roman empire.

Hitler was evil as *****, but let's be honest.
The fact that hitler and nazism are portrayed in today's world compared to other evil rulers (stalin killed approx. 20mill christians) is simply because of the
ethnic group he targeted = jews.

If stalin targeted jews and not Christians he would be portrait in a very different manner.

The victors write the history books my friend.

SnueGliffer
02-25-2017, 07:12 PM
So, my husband and his family are Buddhist. He was very excited to play the samurai class and made a shield emblem relevant to it.

His shield is simple with a white Manji on it. If you don't know, a Manji is a Buddhist symbol of sun and life, simply put. It is on many Buddhist statues you see and almost every homes shrine has this statue. Well, a ton of players were trying to report him for his emblem. He tried to explain to them it is a Manji, not a swastika, but obviously, they were having none of that.

A swastika is usually surrounded by a circle and is tilted at a 45-degree angle while the shapes in a Manji are horizontally straight. The 'arms' can be facing left or right depending on what Asian culture or religion uses it.

It's funny how so many people do not know this. I thought with the internet at our fingertips more people would know that the image was originally used in many cultures in different styles as a form of peace or symbolism until Hitler hijacked it.

1. Manji vs Swastika
http://assets.change.org/photos/5/gb/ql/MbGbQlHlmKDBZan-1600x900-noPad.jpg?1453559533

I'm very well aware that of the original meaning behind the swastika and it's adoption by the Nazis, it still doesn't mean we should let people get away with having one for their emblem. How many people could just use the excuse "but I'm a buddhist" if they get banned for having one? Most people who go to the effort of making their emblem a swastika will not be doing so to express their religion, they will be doing it to deliberately cause upset. I've encountered people who have had a swastika as their emblem and I can tell you right now they were not using it as a symbol of peace, they were most certainly jus trolling.

dyrak55
02-27-2017, 06:57 PM
Ubisoft stuff replied to other threads with reports of people using Nazi Swastika (The one on red background in white circle) that it is violation of their code of conduct, but would be nice to hear if usage of Manji is offensive

HeavyEchoV1
02-27-2017, 07:28 PM
TBH Ubisoft and other players should know better nowadays.

It doesn't take a scientist to tell a Swastika from the reversed version that represents Nazism since its something you are taught in school around age 12-13. (Or at least it was in my school despite almost every student not give a crap about Religious Education)

Then again.... Ubi don't seem to care much about "Good Fortune" or "Well Being" so they might ban people using the correct Swastika anyway.

iHunny
02-27-2017, 07:35 PM
So far I have only seen thet tilted swastica and not the buddist symbol and so far reported all of the swastikas. However, should one use the buddist one in a white circel surrounded by a red field I would report them aswell.

Braegulfer
02-27-2017, 07:36 PM
I can't believe anyone is making an argument FOR the swastikas inclusion. Culturally it has taken on connotations beyond its original intent and conjures associations with one of the most vile and repugnant regimes in civilized history.

Give it up and have some respect for those that still bear the scars and pain of this misappropriated symbol. Have some ******* empathy for those that lost grandparents, family, loved ones, and relations to the regime that it culturally has come to represent, and probably will for quite some time.

MOST people using it are being *******s, and those that aren't are taking a stand on seriously shaky moral ground.

There are far more important things to fight for/against than trying to claim back the original intent of this image. Put some of the self-righteous energy into those, your efforts will not only offend less people, but be put to far better use (one might argue that changing focus would honor the original intent of the image and fighting for its inclusion actually works against what is used to represent to most people).

Valfrekr
02-27-2017, 07:52 PM
I'm trying to find an image of it online, but the game already has a swatstika in it, and the artwork looked to be meant for the Vikings. I believe it's 4 dragon's heads in a celtic like knot work in the shape of the swastika. I'm with the OP on this issue. The swastika (Manji/Sun wheel/etc...) had been around thousands of years before the nazis. The symbol isn't exclusively theirs. If that were the case, the cross could be looked at a symbol of hate.

XORaptor0
02-27-2017, 07:54 PM
Yeah, it's completely unreasonable to admonish someone for brandishing a symbol appropriated by fascists whose ethnic cleansing killed millions. /s

If you're decent and have the slightest bit of empathy, then you understand that some things outweigh your desire to have a specific emblem IN A FREAKING VIDEO GAME!

It is unreasonable to censor a symbol because somebody misused it for evil.
If you have a shred of rationality you'd understand that some things outweigh getting upset about a specific emblem in a freaking video game. Especially when the two symbols are easily distinct.

If we lived between 1000, and 1200 in Islamic Mediterranean countries you could be reported for using a cross on your emblem.
It'd be like banning the symbol of an atom if we lived in Japan, because Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Or banning the hammer and sickle if we lived 60 years ago.
Ridiculous.

secrecy274
02-27-2017, 08:09 PM
I don't understand why people even bother getting offended by a emblem... seriously, do you think you're fighting the good fight by reporting them, helping the helpless that'll never play the game?

Why even care?

Pope138
02-27-2017, 08:12 PM
It is unreasonable to censor a symbol because somebody misused it for evil.
If you have a shred of rationality you'd understand that some things outweigh getting upset about a specific emblem in a freaking video game. Especially when the two symbols are easily distinct.

If we lived between 1000, and 1200 in Islamic Mediterranean countries you could be reported for using a cross on your emblem.
It'd be like banning the symbol of an atom if we lived in Japan, because Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Or banning the hammer and sickle if we lived 60 years ago.
Ridiculous.

There are far more people on planet earth that interpret the swastika as a symbol for Nazism which means that it's meaning has changed from it's Buddhist roots. Which means YOU are the one with the alternative meaning for this symbol. Origin does not matter.
And it's extremely arrogant and petty to marginalize the feelings of the millions of people still alive that were personally affected by this tragedy. It only takes a small amount of empathy to do the human thing and understand the pain that this symbol causes some. Maybe you feel too strong to let something like this bother you, but it's not about you, it's about us.

Not to mention that it opens the door for actual white nationalists to receive some form of representation.
Friendly advice? Don't let "Swastika Freedom" be your hill to die on.

MyNameIsMicheal
02-27-2017, 08:31 PM
I understand where you are coming from. But as others have said most associate that symbol with negativity and do not see a difference.

Is your faith so strong that you must use a symbol that may offend the majority? Different strokes i suppose but I do not feel the need to advertise my faith in a video game. But to each their own.

P.S. I am German, not an American that has some German blood. I was born and raised in Germany. I now split my time between the two countries and have a house in both. I guess my point is you are saying you need to use this emblem so bad that you don't care what emotions it triggers for others. Your display of faith is more important than the majorities feelings. Alas, I didn't buy your game and i surely don't pay your electricity or playstation plus bills so do what you like ;)

Sirrkas
02-27-2017, 08:54 PM
I was curious if they'd just not have the symbol in Germany, considering how hardcore they are about things like that.

The nazisymbol is banished and using it for other means than education is prohibited. But I am not entirely sure, if all symbols are banned, that look similar to it. So far I haven't seen anything similar in the public, except of some grafitiy from neonazis.

MisterGuyMan
03-03-2017, 04:56 PM
So can we ban any symbol with the Cross since the KKK burned crosses? Heck, historically, we probably can't even calculate how many people died in wars under Banners bearing the cross.

This is racism, pure and simple. White people are offended by a symbol so it must be universally offensive. I know it's widely used in India as a religious symbol and is a Chinese character in their written language. Between those two countries alone is half the world so how is anyone going to tell them that their beliefs take a back seat to another group's?

Karma_Ghost
03-03-2017, 06:26 PM
There are far more people on planet earth that interpret the swastika as a symbol for Nazism which means that it's meaning has changed from it's Buddhist roots. Which means YOU are the one with the alternative meaning for this symbol. Origin does not matter.
And it's extremely arrogant and petty to marginalize the feelings of the millions of people still alive that were personally affected by this tragedy. It only takes a small amount of empathy to do the human thing and understand the pain that this symbol causes some. Maybe you feel too strong to let something like this bother you, but it's not about you, it's about us.


1. The symbol predates Buddhism by thousands of years. It's also more widely associated with Hinduism. Buddhism is a derivative of Hinduism just as Christianity is derivative of Judaism.
2. Population of Hindu + Buddhists: ~2 Billion people
3. You're just as arrogant and petty to marginalize the roughly 2 billion people who don't agree with you.
4. The crux of your argument is basically: My opinion is more important than your opinion. Or, to quote you directly, "...it's not about you, it's about us."

Pope138
03-03-2017, 06:51 PM
1. The symbol predates Buddhism by thousands of years. It's also more widely associated with Hinduism. Buddhism is a derivative of Hinduism just as Christianity is derivative of Judaism.
2. Population of Hindu + Buddhists: ~2 Billion people
3. You're just as arrogant and petty to marginalize the roughly 2 billion people who don't agree with you.
4. The crux of your argument is basically: My opinion is more important than your opinion. Or, to quote you directly, "...it's not about you, it's about us."

If you want respect for a religion, you've come to the wrong guy. But people? Humanity? I'm your Huckleberry.
You don't get it, and that's fine. Not my job to fix you. Carry on.

Also, I bet the swastika stays forbidden, so...
:p

MisterGuyMan
03-03-2017, 07:25 PM
If you want respect for a religion, you've come to the wrong guy. But people? Humanity? I'm your Huckleberry.
You don't get it, and that's fine. Not my job to fix you. Carry on.

Also, I bet the swastika stays forbidden, so...
:p
So you respect Humanity but then believes people that humans that disagree with him need to be fixed. You also made the false distinction between humans that practice religion and Humanity. Uhhh... what? The 2 billion people that follow Hinduism would fall under the umbrella of humanity.

Aurockson
03-03-2017, 07:37 PM
I don't understand how people can never offended by a symbol that literally hasn't affected them at all. Other than a few months in school it hasn't done anything to the people that play this game guarantee 100% that people that play this game were not alive during the holocaust. I'd be willing to be they are the 3rd or 4th generation down from those who did. Which means it shouldn't matter to you. That's like a black man walking up to a white man and punching him because his ancestors (white man) kept the black mans ancestors as slaves.. that's wrong. It's what's wrong with society today... The whole never forget mentality is BS. Grow up move on.

Prophit618
03-03-2017, 08:01 PM
In the end, those of you arguing for the use of the swastika are saying that your using of a symbol that you purport to not share the same ideals that are broadcasted by it, is of more importance than reminding somebody else of one of history's most tragic events. That makes you a self-centered person. Maybe you're ok with that, but in the end, you lose the numbers game.
And for those talking about triggering, which is sillier? Being triggered by a representation of real life tragedy and evil that is STILL being used today to represent those horrible ideals? Or being triggered by someone else asking you to respect that?
As for the people who would like to use a symbol that is very unfortunately awfully similar to this one, I'm sorry, but I'm sure most people understand the point in that situation. It's another numbers game, at least here in the states. As someone else put it earlier, if i see the symbol in India, or in a Buddhist-oriented house or place of business, it doesn't offend at all, but you have to realize you're unwittingly empowering the people who use the actual symbol, or something close enough to evoke it to avoid the rules.
And to the guy above me, a large chunk of what's wrong with society today is people using that argument. Never forget is far from BS. There's a famous saying about forgetting the past and being doomed to repeat it, you know? And in the case of the Swastika, it is NOT in the past. It is still being used today commonly as a banner of hatred and a call to arms against one or many (depending on the person) ethnicities. You grow up and realize that other people matter too.

Capoupacap
03-03-2017, 08:07 PM
So, my husband and his family are Buddhist. He was very excited to play the samurai class and made a shield emblem relevant to it.

His shield is simple with a white Manji on it. If you don't know, a Manji is a Buddhist symbol of sun and life, simply put. It is on many Buddhist statues you see and almost every homes shrine has this statue. Well, a ton of players were trying to report him for his emblem. He tried to explain to them it is a Manji, not a swastika, but obviously, they were having none of that.

A swastika is usually surrounded by a circle and is tilted at a 45-degree angle while the shapes in a Manji are horizontally straight. The 'arms' can be facing left or right depending on what Asian culture or religion uses it.

It's funny how so many people do not know this. I thought with the internet at our fingertips more people would know that the image was originally used in many cultures in different styles as a form of peace or symbolism until Hitler hijacked it.

1. Manji vs Swastika
http://assets.change.org/photos/5/gb/ql/MbGbQlHlmKDBZan-1600x900-noPad.jpg?1453559533


Has perfectly described in the code of conduct, using any historic or religious content is forbidden.

Pope138
03-03-2017, 08:17 PM
So you respect Humanity but then believes people that humans that disagree with him need to be fixed. You also made the false distinction between humans that practice religion and Humanity. Uhhh... what? The 2 billion people that follow Hinduism would fall under the umbrella of humanity.

I'm not surprised you failed to understand.
I respect people regardless of their faith, but I don't have to respect that or any faith.

You see, the fascists that appropriated the swastika used it to do great harm to our world and species. They showed us humanity at it's worst and there are still very ugly people out there with those horrible ideals. That symbol's meaning and the hurt and ugliness behind it are real. Much more real than any religious symbolism or your desire to use it in a video game. And it's no surprise that Ubisoft agrees.
It's troubling that this needs to be explained to you. I hope that as you age you become more empathetic.

MisterGuyMan
03-03-2017, 08:31 PM
I'm not surprised you failed to understand.
I respect people regardless of their faith, but I don't have to respect that or any faith.

You see, the fascists that appropriated the swastika used it to do great harm to our world and species. They showed us humanity at it's worst and there are still very ugly people out there with those horrible ideals. That symbol's meaning and the hurt and ugliness behind it are real. Much more real than any religious symbolism or your desire to use it in a video game. And it's no surprise that Ubisoft agrees.
It's troubling that this needs to be explained to you. I hope that as you age you become more empathetic.
Wow. Way to miss the point completely. People who follow their beliefs and put importance to certain symbols are just a part of humanity as anyone else so your imaginary line where you respect one group's experiences but then deny another group's symbols and beliefs is a completely imaginary and made up distinction.

You explained nothing. I understand your point and your point is a bad one. Your argument seems to be "Nazis are bad therefore this group of people shouldn't be allowed to do this and that." Sorry but it's a bad argument. You're under the impression that you have some right to dictate which beliefs take precedence over others. That's what I'm pointing out here and you completely missed it.

The irony here is you, the guy telling other people that their beliefs have to take a backseat for other people's beliefs, is hoping that OTHER PEOPLE in grow up to be more emphatic.

Karma_Ghost
03-03-2017, 08:41 PM
I'm not surprised you failed to understand.
I respect people regardless of their faith, but I don't have to respect that or any faith.

You see, the fascists that appropriated the swastika used it to do great harm to our world and species. They showed us humanity at it's worst and there are still very ugly people out there with those horrible ideals. That symbol's meaning and the hurt and ugliness behind it are real. Much more real than any religious symbolism or your desire to use it in a video game. And it's no surprise that Ubisoft agrees.
It's troubling that this needs to be explained to you. I hope that as you age you become more empathetic.

So your argument now is political symbolism is more important than religious symbolism (most of the world would disagree here btw). And, because you personally can't differentiate between the two things or admit they're both valid interpretations, the opinion of more than a quarter of the worlds population means nothing. Good argument. Way to show us how to empathize. You shining beacon of humanity you.

Pope138
03-03-2017, 08:49 PM
Wow. Way to miss the point completely. People who follow their beliefs and put importance to certain symbols are just a part of humanity as anyone else so your imaginary line where you respect one group's experiences but then deny another group's symbols and beliefs is a completely imaginary and made up distinction.

You explained nothing. I understand your point and your point is a bad one. Your argument seems to be "Nazis are bad therefore this group of people shouldn't be allowed to do this and that." Sorry but it's a bad argument. You're under the impression that you have some right to dictate which beliefs take precedence over others. That's what I'm pointing out here and you completely missed it.

The irony here is you, the guy telling other people that their beliefs have to take a backseat for other people's beliefs, is hoping that OTHER PEOPLE in grow up to be more emphatic.

You misunderstand again. If only there was a coloring book that could explain it to you.

Religion = just a belief. Faith, by it's very definition, is trust in concepts despite any evidence to support them. Or, as some of us more cynical blowhards like to call it: Fairy tales.
But genocide is real. Millions of people died at the hands of soldiers wearing swastikas. That really happened. It didn't just affect Jews, homosexuals, people with mental disabilities, etc. It affected us all and still has lasting effects, not to mention the nazi's out there today that would just love representation in mainstream video games.

But, you sound pretty sure of yourself. I imagine you have the courage of your convictions so let me ask: when do you begin publicly advocating for the restoration of the swastika's use in western society? Or is this crusade an anonymous internet type thing?

ParadigmFringe
03-03-2017, 08:54 PM
Honestly, how can you expect someone to know this? Who spends their time on the internet Googling "meaning behind Buddhist symbol'?

The meaning of words or symbols can change over time, or with different cultures. Fifty years ago a certain word meant "happy", now it refers to a homosexual. Some time ago a certain symbol meant "peace" (I have no idea what it truly means as I haven't bothered to look it up on the internet), but now it means something different.

The images are not the same but are close enough for people to mistake the two. well... i knew it JUST from national treasure, or maybe it was the Da Vinci Code... it was one of them.

Pope138
03-03-2017, 08:55 PM
So your argument now is political symbolism is more important than religious symbolism (most of the world would disagree here btw). And, because you personally can't differentiate between the two things or admit they're both valid interpretations, the opinion of more than a quarter of the worlds population means nothing. Good argument. Way to show us how to empathize. You shining beacon of humanity you.

Nope. My argument is: be mad at fascists for changing the meaning of somebody else's religious symbol.
If it were up to me it would mean whatever you wanted it to mean. But that's not the world we live in. Stop being so naive. Reality is harsh.

MisterGuyMan
03-03-2017, 09:04 PM
You misunderstand again. If only there was a coloring book that could explain it to you.

Religion = just a belief. Faith, by it's very definition, is trust in concepts despite any evidence to support them. Or, as some of us more cynical blowhards like to call it: Fairy tales.
But genocide is real. Millions of people died at the hands of soldiers wearing swastikas. That really happened. It didn't just affect Jews, homosexuals, people with mental disabilities, etc. It affected us all and still has lasting effects, not to mention the nazi's out there today that would just love representation in mainstream video games.

But, you sound pretty sure of yourself. I imagine you have the courage of your convictions so let me ask: when do you begin publicly advocating for the restoration of the swastika's use in western society? Or is this crusade an anonymous internet type thing?
You're again making the same mistake you keep making. You're making false equivalences and hoping no one notices your leaps in logic. Here you're equating the wrongness of genocide and applying it carte blanche with the use of associated symbols. I do not condone genocide. I do condone free speech. Your argument hinges on making a leap in logic that since genocide happened, the beliefs of the genocide victims supercede the beliefs of others. You can try to talk around it all you want but that is the entire crux of your argument. I'm stating plainly what your argument seems to be so you can't avoid seeing it written out. You seem intent on talking around the actual issue.

Your argument also leaves your position up to untold counterarguments that you simply cannot defend. Crosses should be banned too because genocides were perpetuated under the Christian symbol of the Cross. The Old Testament, Christian Bible and Qoran were all cited to justify atrocities. So, using the same kind of logic that you seem to be arguing, anything and everything that has been used to justify atrocities are fair game for censorship. Heck name any country you want and wars of conquest have been justified for that country in the name of nationalism. We should censor all countries now too right? This things HAPPENED. They're real. Milllions of people died at the hands of soldiers wearing Crosses, citing Islam, promoting the ideals of the White Man and/or *insert any country you care to name* etc etc etc.

As for your last point, you're hopelessly resorting to moving goalposts. I play For Honor. I see a topic about censorship in a game I play so I point out that it is, in fact, an issue of censorship. That's all. If I have the time or inclination to be an activist on a broader level is completely beside the point.

Karma_Ghost
03-03-2017, 09:15 PM
Nope. My argument is: be mad at fascists for changing the meaning of somebody else's religious symbol.
If it were up to me it would mean whatever you wanted it to mean. But that's not the world we live in. Stop being so naive. Reality is harsh.

That's exactly the point you seem to be missing. They didn't change the meaning of it all. They just created a de facto meaning for the west. The rest of the world doesn't associate the shape exclusively with the Nazis for the same reason Americans and Europeans don't associate crosses and eagles exclusively with them. Those already had some meaning to the people before. Your view seems to be confined to western countries. The other side of the planet only associates the backwards, tilted swastika with the Nazis. Even Jews that understand the history and culture behind it aren't offended by it because they know it has nothing to do with them.

Pope138
03-03-2017, 09:18 PM
You're again making the same mistake you keep making. You're equating genocide with the use of symbols. I do not condone genocide. I do condone free speech. Your argument hinges on making a leap in logic that since genocide happened, the beliefs of the genocide victims supercede the beliefs of others. You can try to talk around it all you want but that is the entire crux of your argument.

I'm not surprised you would call that the crux of my argument seeing as how you don't understand my argument. Sure, I equate the swastika with genocide, but you know who else does? Anyone who knows anything about the 20th century. If the swastika wasn't so closely associated with genocide would we even need to have this conversation? No. And this isn't a free speech debate. The government is not trying to censor you. This is about a private company deciding they do not want symbols widely regarded as hate symbols to be a part of their product.

Your argument also leaves your position up to untold counterarguments that you simply cannot defend. Crosses should be banned too because genocides were perpetuated under the Christian symbol of the Cross. The Old Testament, Christian Bible and Qoran were all cited to justify atrocities. So, using the same kind of logic that you seem to be arguing, anything and everything that has been used to justify atrocities are fair game for censorship. Heck name any country you want and wars of conquest have been justified for that country in the name of nationalism. We should censor all countries now too right? This things HAPPENED. They're real. Milllions of people died at the hands of soldiers wearing Crosses, citing Islam, promoting the ideals of the White Man and/or *insert any country you care to name* etc etc etc.

Maybe a few centuries from now you can use your swastika and no one will mind. But in relative terms, WW2 was yesterday and the inquisition/crusades/whatever were a decades ago.

As for your last point, you're hopelessly resorting to moving goalposts. I play For Honor. I see a topic about censorship in a game I play so I point out that it is, in fact, an issue of censorship. That's all. If I have the time or inclination to be an activist on a broader level is completely beside the point.

No goalposts moved. You want to use swastikas. I'm just curious as to whether or not you'd use them publicly.



;)

odyrules420
03-03-2017, 09:23 PM
I had no idea that was different either. Even took a religion class in college and learned some about Buddhism.

Most people probably don't know there is a difference.

The problem is that the swastika is such a huge symbol of hate and bigotry, it carries too big of a negative connotation. Anything resembling it will be recognized as a swastika(even though the mantra came first).

At least in the large scheme of things, your Buddhist, which means you should accept that people misconstruing those symbols is just part of the universe working as intended,.. :p

Karma_Ghost
03-03-2017, 09:24 PM
Has perfectly described in the code of conduct, using any historic or religious content is forbidden.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1548873

Only mention of this: You may not use a name with a religious or historical connotation.

Also, there are dozens of crosses and emblems patterned after historic symbols built into the game. As long as we're on the subject. One of those emblems is the Iron Cross used by the Wehrmacht.

MisterGuyMan
03-03-2017, 09:33 PM
1. I'm not surprised you would call that the crux of my argument seeing as how you don't understand my argument. Sure, I equate the swastika with genocide, but you know who else does? Anyone who knows anything about the 20th century. If the swastika wasn't so closely associated with genocide would we even need to have this conversation? No. And this isn't a free speech debate. The government is not trying to censor you. This is about a private company deciding they do not want symbols widely regarded as hate symbols to be a part of their product.

2. Maybe a few centuries from now you can use your swastika and no one will mind. But in relative terms, WW2 was yesterday and the inquisition/crusades/whatever were a decades ago.

3. No goalposts moved. You want to use swastikas. I'm just curious as to whether or not you'd use them publicly.

1. So why don't you write out your entire logical argument with no gaps? So why is your association for the symbol more important that anyone else's? Since you refuse to actually write out your argument, II'll do it for you:
"I and other people closely associate the Swastika with genocide, therefore our association for the symbol supersedes the associations of others."
That's your argument. It's a silly argument that places your own and other people's beliefs arbitrarily above the beliefs of other people. Moreover no one said governments are the only entities that can practice censorship. That's another arbitrary distinction.

2. This point is irrelevant. Your arguments are that "These things happened" and "I associate this with genocide" so those are the arguments I'm addressing. Besides if it feels like yesterday for one group of people then obviously there must exist a group of people who don't consider the event at all related to their own personal beliefs. This is again, a thinly veiled "my opinion and the opinions of those like me supersed the opinions of those people that don't believe the same things I do" argument. So what if it was only yesterday? Why does that matter to the other people who don't think like you do?

3. I don't want to use Swastikas or Manjis at all. I'm supporting the rights of people who do.

Pope138
03-03-2017, 10:10 PM
1. So why don't you write out your entire logical argument with no gaps? So why is your association for the symbol more important that anyone else's? Since you refuse to actually write out your argument, II'll do it for you:
"I and other people closely associate the Swastika with genocide, therefore our association for the symbol supersedes the associations of others."
That's your argument. It's a silly argument that places your own and other people's beliefs arbitrarily above the beliefs of other people. Moreover no one said governments are the only entities that can practice censorship. That's another arbitrary distinction.

2. This point is irrelevant. Your arguments are that "These things happened" and "I associate this with genocide" so those are the arguments I'm addressing. Besides if it feels like yesterday for one group of people then obviously there must exist a group of people who don't consider the event at all related to their own personal beliefs. This is again, a thinly veiled "my opinion and the opinions of those like me supersed the opinions of those people that don't believe the same things I do" argument. So what if it was only yesterday? Why does that matter to the other people who don't think like you do?

3. I don't want to use Swastikas or Manjis at all. I'm supporting the rights of people who do.

First off:
"I and most other people closely associate the Swastika with genocide, therefore our association for the symbol supersedes the associations of the minority of people that do not."
Fixed that for ya. Hey, I don't make the rules, that's just the way it is.


1. You made it a freedom of speech issue. I assumed you were talking about the U.S. Constitution. My bad. But the point still stands: Ubisoft is under no obligation to allow you to use their game to express whatever view you wish to express. And, like most people/companies they restrict the use of swastikas because: decency and taste.

2. No, my point is: You're right. The Inquisition, The crusades, etc...very, very horrible. But, like all tragedies, the passage of time has eased the way we view these long-passed horrible events. Enough time passes and the swastika may lose the evil connotation it currently has. Also, your comparing 20th/21st century social awareness to that of the dark ages. It's a false equivalency.

3. Well, I can't tell you what causes are worthy of your time, but if you want to make a difference I recommend Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders, or The Red Cross.

Also, the name of this thread is Manji VS Swastika. The answer is Swastika. Sorry, that's just the world we live in.

Burn-The-Sinner
03-03-2017, 10:19 PM
*****, nobody cares for your ******** religious nonsense. gtfo.

MisterGuyMan
03-03-2017, 10:21 PM
First off:
"I and most other people closely associate the Swastika with genocide, therefore our association for the symbol supersedes the associations of the minority of people that do not."
Fixed that for ya. Hey, I don't make the rules, that's just the way it is.

1. You made it a freedom of speech issue. I assumed you were talking about the U.S. Constitution. My bad. But the point still stands: Ubisoft is under no obligation to allow you to use their game to express whatever view you wish to express. And, like most people/companies they restrict the use of swastikas because: decency and taste.

2. No, my point is: You're right. The Inquisition, The crusades, etc...very, very horrible. But, like all tragedies, the passage of time has eased the way we view these long-passed horrible events. Enough time passes and the swastika may lose the evil connotation it currently has. Also, your comparing 20th century social awareness to that of the dark ages. It's a false equivalency.

3. Well, I can't tell you what causes are worthy of your time, but if you want to make a difference I recommend Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders, or The Red Cross.
1. So your argument is now a basic Appeal to the Majority fallacy. That's an even worse argument honestly since it's literally got a fallacy named after it. You'd also have to... you know... prove it. China and India alone account for 37% of the world's population and both countries have established connotations for the symbol that predate WWII. Asia is 60%. Then I'll be honest and say I can't say either way how Africa generally feels about the symbol since I doubt they emphasize WWII as much as the primary participants in the West. So even with an appeal to the majority as an argument, you're already starting on shaky ground with your entire argument there.

2. You're reverting to ethnocentrism again. To you this a symbol that reminds you of a tragedy that requires the passage of time to ease. For other people the symbol means something else. Also note that there is no false equivalence here. You explicitly tried to argue that "this happened" and "this genocide is real" as points for your case. I'm pointing out, as a matter of fact, why those arguments hold no water. You're shifting it now to more "This tragedy happened recently so needs time to to be less tragic" but that wasn't your original point. Now of course we're still at the same spot as before. Why is this symbol for tragedy for you more important than the beliefs of other people who don't view the symbol with tragic overtones? It's the same question I keep asking and you have no answer. Why are you and your majority opinion (which still needs to be proved) more valid?

3. Thanks for the list. Now if only anyone asked you. Please stop moving goalposts.

Pope138
03-03-2017, 10:46 PM
1. So your argument is now a basic Appeal to the Majority fallacy. That's an even worse argument honestly since it's literally got a fallacy named after it. You'd also have to... you know... prove it. China and India alone account for 37% of the world's population and both countries have established connotations for the symbol that predate WWII. Asia is 60%. Then I'll be honest and say I can't say either way how Africa generally feels about the symbol since I doubt they emphasize WWII as much as the primary participants in the West. So even with an appeal to the majority as an argument, you're already starting on shaky ground with your entire argument there.

2. You're reverting to ethnocentrism again. To you this a symbol that reminds you of a tragedy that requires the passage of time to ease. For other people the symbol means something else. Also note that there is no false equivalence here. You explicitly tried to argue that "this happened" and "this genocide is real" as points for your case. I'm pointing out, as a matter of fact, why those arguments hold no water. You're shifting it now to more "This tragedy happened recently so needs time to to be less tragic" but that wasn't your original point. Now of course we're still at the same spot as before. Why is this symbol for tragedy for you more important than the beliefs of other people who don't view the symbol with tragic overtones? It's the same question I keep asking and you have no answer. Why are you and your majority opinion (which still needs to be proved) more valid?

3. Thanks for the list. Now if only anyone asked you. Please stop moving goalposts.

Lmao...dude...

You keep using word like "you" and "your" as if the decision is mine. Actually, it's society that decided this, take it up with them.
Also, I tell you something and you don't understand it. So I say it again, but this time with more of an explanation and you say I'm moving the goal posts. It's the same freaking answer but in more detail, genius.
Is that your tactic? Play stupid so when someone gives you the same explanation in alternate terms you can accuse them of moving goal posts!?! So idiotic it's brilliant! lol

Thread title: Manji VS Swastika. Swastika wins. Not because of me or my feelings of superiority over anyone else, but because once upon a time only a relative handful of people could identify that symbol until something very bad happened by people wearing that symbol. Now everyone knows that symbol, but because of the very bad thing that happened.


There, I made the words real big and full of colors! Try real hard and maybe you'll understand.

FredEx919
03-03-2017, 11:44 PM
Hey everyone,

Thank you for expressing all sides of this discussion. The topic has been sent over to the Devs attention so no worries of false or incorrect reporting or banning. I'm going to close this up to avoid the conversation becoming too heated. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.