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Marko85
06-25-2004, 03:16 PM
Am I to understand that we won`t be able to control the sub during the travel to patrol zone?? But...I want to travel by myself, I want to stand on the deck, stare at the sea and wait 72 hours if I must, to get to the patrol zone!!

Please tell me I misunderstood that part!

Marko85
06-25-2004, 03:16 PM
Am I to understand that we won`t be able to control the sub during the travel to patrol zone?? But...I want to travel by myself, I want to stand on the deck, stare at the sea and wait 72 hours if I must, to get to the patrol zone!!

Please tell me I misunderstood that part!

negus1
06-25-2004, 03:48 PM
there is no misunderstanding at all. these are their plans. sad but true ...

"Negus 1 an alle kleinen Brüder, wir greifen an! Kameraden, dicht aufschließen zum Sturmangriff! Die Begleitgruppe aufpassen auf Indianer. Wir machen Pauke, Pauke; nur die Ruhe, Kameraden, alles mir nach!"
Maj. Dahl JG 300

HeibgesU999
06-25-2004, 04:24 PM
you mean exactly like the original silent hunter worked?

Marko85
06-25-2004, 04:34 PM
Well that just sucks...

Is there anything we can do about it? Who do we have to kill? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Marko85
06-25-2004, 04:49 PM
I mean, if we can`t roam around freely, than this is NOT a simulation.

TheAirMarshal
06-25-2004, 04:51 PM
That's cr*p. Silent Hunter II is already superior. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Teddy Bar
06-25-2004, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marko85:
I mean, if we can't roam around freely, than this is NOT a simulation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why does any one who has watched DAS BOOT think they are an expert? Though even in DAS BOOT they stayed where they were told too.

A captain went to, and stayed where he was told too. The area that he may have to patrol could be small or cover hundreds of square miles. What never happened was a Captain deciding that the allotted area is a little quite so head over to the other side of England.

It was not unheard of for a u-boat to be told exactly where to go for every day of it's patrol if it was part of a picket line.

So let's get this clear for all you experts, a u-boat Captain did not use the u-boat as his own private yacht. The way to and from a port was also dictated for several reasons. One being so that they were not attacked by friendly vessels or aircraft. As was the case with a German merchant ship (will supply name when I find it) that was sunk by a u-boat as it was somewhere where it was not expected to be or surpossed to be.

A Captain was also expected to make the most direct route to and from the patrol zone to maximise the time there.

My opinion is that the DEV team in this area are making a simulation. Hopefully the patrol areas will be large but not ridiculously so. I also hope they have the ability to change the patrol area in the middle of a patrol.

In AOD I would plot my course and go to the world map and compress time till I got a contact or I made it to my destination, as such the way that SHIII will work is no different. In SH you were teleported there, so in this case it is vastly superior.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

Kapitanleutnant--Martes86--Mix
06-25-2004, 06:54 PM
You're right on the fact that they must follow an specific route, but players would want to follow that route themselves, while they enjoy the sunrise or the sunset. That makes it more a simulation. And if you want the choice to risk your mission by going for other routes, then do it. That is a simulation.

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TheAirMarshal
06-25-2004, 08:31 PM
If we just get teleported to the designated area, there will be no chance of any random events which make the game less repetative.

negus1
06-26-2004, 12:22 AM
german u-boat commanders were only told where to go but not how to get there.

this is called auftragsprinzip and also applied in heer, luftwaffe and waffen-ss. the officer gets a certain mission objective but it he decided how meet this objective.

an this is the unrealistic thing about the uncontrolled travel to patrol zone. especially from mid of 1943 the way out and in became very decisive for survival of a uboat. and only in few cases there was general(!) guideline of BdU how to travel (travel submerged by night, alongside the spanish coast etc.). but there was never an order that said: "go with 12 knots on this line until you reach your patrol zone." stupid and arcade-like.

"Negus 1 an alle kleinen Brüder, wir greifen an! Kameraden, dicht aufschließen zum Sturmangriff! Die Begleitgruppe aufpassen auf Indianer. Wir machen Pauke, Pauke; nur die Ruhe, Kameraden, alles mir nach!"
Maj. Dahl JG 300

TASKFORCE1x1
06-26-2004, 02:31 AM
I hate warping around to the action. In GNBNA it was kinda like that but the bad thing is you would warp in the middle of a convoy. Thats a bummer. They should fix it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Keep on Smiling'

Marko85
06-26-2004, 04:41 AM
Don`t get me wrong...I want to have a specified patrol zone (that`s the only realistic way), but it`s not realistic not to be able to watch sunrise or sunset, gigantic waves crashing onto my boat or just stare at the stars and moon and be thinking about my loved ones. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If they put that warp thing in the game, then this will be more linear and scripted game than SHII.

Monkeywho
06-26-2004, 12:13 PM
I agree that we should be able to control the sub during travel to the patrol zone. I too enjoyed being able plot different approaches to a particular area or merely looking at the vast sea. This auto-travel to the patrol zone is a big turn-off. It was the one aspect that I think SHII got right.

Monkeywho
06-26-2004, 12:25 PM
I don't know if my first post posted. Just wanted to say that I agree that was should have complete control of the sub during travel to the patrol zone. It was one of the few aspects that I felt SHII was right on with. Overall I am impressed with the hard work the DEVS are doing and that they are actually listening to the subsim community. Thanks for the hard work! Both options would be good - Free travel and "warp"

Bruno_Lotse
06-26-2004, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by negus1:
german u-boat commanders were only told where to go but not how to get there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jawohl!
Bruno Lotse
U743

Teddy Bar
06-26-2004, 06:29 PM
@ Marko85,
I am sure the ability to "watch sunrise or sunset, gigantic waves crashing onto my boat or just stare at the stars and moon and be thinking about my loved ones" will be available within the patrol zone (big assumption on my behalf) but you won't on the way to the patrol zone. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Whilst they had leway on how to get to their patrol zone, there was not "let's go sight seeing", or as some of you guys want to do, go into dangerous areas. A Captain was expected to get to the patrol zone as quickly (within the economical contraints) as possible.

Let's be Real for a moment. On the way to the patrol zone no-one really is going to be sitting on the deck at 1024x compression. So why the big deal if when at the patrol zone you get to see the sunset when ever you wish?

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

Bruno_Lotse
06-26-2004, 07:44 PM
Real means real. In reality my time compression NEVER in SH2 exceeds 4x. I have a PC dedicated to SH2 and it runs like a real sub 24 hrs a day. My missions may take real calendar weeks or even months. I do immensely treasure this unique for sims level of immersion achieved in SH2 and I know I am not alone in forgoing 1024x warp. I do treasure an opportunity to go once in a while up on Rudergang and enjoy virtual nights somewhere in the middle of Atlantik. Properly moded graphics and sounds of virtual night is awesome.
Another issue. I guess, every WWII Krigsmarine operating in the Biscay Bay knew such terms as 'The Valley of Death', 'Bloody Biscay', 'The Black Pit'. These areas had nothing to do with patrol zones. They reflected the fact that things could become really heary on the way to patrol zone and especially on the way back home to base from the patrol zone - when you are short of fuel, short or none of torps and quite often on a mangled boat after previous encounters with the enemy. You're essentially prey rather than a hunter.Way more challenging than patrol zone. If we're allowed to operate only in patrol zones we lose the whole dimension of challenges like that Valley of Death facing German submarines. Life becomes unrealistically and unhistorically simplified. It remains only wonder why then the Biscay Bay is dotted with UBoot wreckage.
See: Bloody Biscay (http://uboat.net/maps/biscay.htm)
Bruno Lotse
U743

HeibgesU999
06-26-2004, 10:30 PM
Since we will be spending 30plus days in our patrol zones, i think there will be plenty of opportunity for watching sunrises, sunsets, moonrises, moonsets, flying fish, and mermaids.

Also, there is nothing to say that some of the random encounters won't encompass 3 or 4 days of game time.

negus1
06-27-2004, 04:46 AM
time compression and sunrise are not the issue.

the unrealistic thing is that you can not plan the way to patrol zone by yourself. a travel route was never given by the BdU (only guidelines)

the commander's plan of crossing the biscay made the difference between a successful u-boat and ... a dead u-boat especially after 1943.

Just read "Iron Coffins" and you know what i mean.

"Negus 1 an alle kleinen Brüder, wir greifen an! Kameraden, dicht aufschließen zum Sturmangriff! Die Begleitgruppe aufpassen auf Indianer. Wir machen Pauke, Pauke; nur die Ruhe, Kameraden, alles mir nach!"
Maj. Dahl JG 300

Marko85
06-27-2004, 04:51 AM
But still...dev. team`s decision sucks big time! It reminds me of a Descent Freespace, where you press ALT+J and you warp out of your patrol zone.

And I bet that the patrol zone will be unrealisticly full of ships, so you won`t have time for a break. This will be a simple submarine shooter.

Mark my words...SHIII will seriously lack realism. I have a feeling that this game is developed only to make as much money as possible, like most of the games today.

Thomsen9U
06-27-2004, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have a feeling that this game is developed only to make as much money as possible, like most of the games today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, that's called capitalism. If UBI would make marvellous games which do not sell, UBI will be away in 6 months.

It is not a failure to make money with games. It is the problem to find the right target market. Should it be a Ultra-Hardcore Sim, or should it be a shooter? (or something between)

UBI has to get market knowledge which is the most buying target group and they have to devellop the game for the demands of that group. That's their task.

Not a fine story, but the reality.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

(But hey! We simmers buy a lot! So make SH III for us!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Mahlzeit

Stefan
U 664
http://www.9teuflottille.de/site/pics/9te_banner.gif

Egan2.0
06-27-2004, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marko85:
Don`t get me wrong...I want to have a specified patrol zone (that`s the only realistic way), but it`s not realistic not to be able to watch sunrise or sunset, gigantic waves crashing onto my boat or just stare at the stars and moon and be thinking about my loved ones. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If they put that warp thing in the game, then this will be more linear and scripted game than SHII.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats my thinking exactly. For me, travelling where ever I want to isn't the point. I agree that U-Boat skippers weren't on a go anywhere pleasure cruise. But I want the control of the boat all the way out and all the way back - using the time for drills, navigation and atmosphere.

Marko85
06-28-2004, 11:26 AM
I would like to hear something from the developers about this question, if that is possible?

thanks

Heracles87
06-28-2004, 07:21 PM
Sounds to me like they are trying to fool us into thinking a static campaign is dynamic. Give me the AOD campaign any day of the year.

Josef_Murnau
06-29-2004, 04:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why does any one who has watched DAS BOOT think they are an expert? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Dear Teddy B¤r
Whenever somebody criticises the auto-grid-map-travel, you start defending it. I don't want to repeat the reasons, why I disagree. We discussed it already, but I miss one point in your argumentation. What advantage has this feature? From your point of view?

All you say is, it's not so bad for you. Thats no advantage.
If a developer implements a new feature, which restricts gaming freedom, he needs at least one good reason for it. If he hasn't one, he should let it be.
So: Which advantage has this feature?

Greetings
Josef Murnau

[This message was edited by Josef_Murnau on Tue June 29 2004 at 04:05 AM.]

[This message was edited by Josef_Murnau on Tue June 29 2004 at 04:06 AM.]

Marko85
06-29-2004, 07:53 AM
I`m telling you...Teddy B¤r works for Ubisoft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers!

sav112
06-29-2004, 01:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno_Lotse:
Real means real. In reality my time compression NEVER in SH2 exceeds 4x. I have a PC dedicated to SH2 and it runs like a real sub 24 hrs a day. My missions may take real calendar weeks or even months. I do immensely treasure this unique for sims level of immersion achieved in SH2 and I know I am not alone in forgoing 1024x warp. I do treasure an opportunity to go once in a while up on Rudergang and enjoy virtual nights somewhere in the middle of Atlantik. Properly moded graphics and sounds of virtual night is awesome.
Another issue. I guess, every WWII Krigsmarine operating in the Biscay Bay knew such terms as 'The Valley of Death', 'Bloody Biscay', 'The Black Pit'. These areas had nothing to do with patrol zones. They reflected the fact that things could become really heary on the way to patrol zone and especially on the way back home to base from the patrol zone - when you are short of fuel, short or none of torps and quite often on a mangled boat after previous encounters with the enemy. You're essentially prey rather than a hunter.Way more challenging than patrol zone. If we're allowed to operate only in patrol zones we lose the whole dimension of challenges like that Valley of Death facing German submarines. Life becomes unrealistically and unhistorically simplified. It remains only wonder why then the Biscay Bay is dotted with UBoot wreckage.
See: http://uboat.net/maps/biscay.htm
Bruno Lotse
U743<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, sorry maditory feild stoping me post?

Josef_Murnau
06-29-2004, 04:57 PM
@ Marko85

Haha http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Maybe he gets a free copy?

But serios:
He is a good guy. A well reputated U-Boot-Sim-veteran, who posted already before the release of SH2 in the subsim community.

Greetings
Josef Murnau

Teddy Bar
06-29-2004, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marko85:
I`m telling you...Teddy B¤r works for Ubisoft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif If I did there would not have been anything other than a AOD 'random' (dynamic) campaign in which you could not change the outcome of the war as was the case in AOD.

Unfortunately, I do not work for Ubi, I am not part of the Dev team, and I am not a beta tester (that is unless someone forgot to tell me).

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

jagtigermk2
06-29-2004, 05:36 PM
This is what i never liked the sound off.

I inquired about letting the player interrupt the grid map travel session and be able to take the bridge at any time but Tiberius said at this point that is not planned. If you did manage to stop the travel routine, there would be nothing but empty sea anyway.

http://www.subsim.com/2004e3

Can the dev team tell us is this still planed?

Drym
06-29-2004, 05:49 PM
My understanding is that there will be random encounters on the way to the patrol zone. Check the SH3 faq at subsim.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dedeye/sig.jpg

Bruno_Lotse
06-29-2004, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drym:
My understanding is that there will be random encounters on the way to the patrol zone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How they gonna to do it? Something like this:
A message to the Commander. "And now our auto-pilot is temporarily going off-line, because in twenty minutes you're scheduled for a very random and very unexpected encounter with a British hunter-killer group. In the meantime, please, DO NOT CHANGE YOUR HEADING, otherwise you're risking missing your very random and very unexpected encounter." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
Bruno Lotse
U743

[This message was edited by Bruno_Lotse on Tue June 29 2004 at 07:36 PM.]

Teddy Bar
06-29-2004, 10:18 PM
@ Josef_Murnau,
I make my comments because I generally see it as a good design decision and the 'I want realism and this will stop that' are not valid comments.

Realistically a u-boat was either on the surface or submerged. There was no run with the deck awash as seems to be a common idea i.e. less of a silhouette and faster diving times? With regards to being surfaced or submerged, a u-boat was expected to stay surfaced when ever possible, regardless of the weather.

What extra can we do on the way to the patrol zone? We could submerge to do a sound check. However, I feel that we may have an unrealistic expectation to find something doing this.

I have read many instances of a u-boat and of wolf packs (i.e.4 or more boats) loosing a convoy. If you consider the evidence of convoy's being lost when the position of the convoy was known, within sight or even after making an attack, especially where a wolf pack is involved, you would have to come to the conclusion that sound checks for a convoy were not all seeing as it has been made out to be in Sims.

I have read many accounts of a u-boat not hearing a vessel that can be seen through the periscope, I have also read where a convoy has been detected before it was seen. I am even aware of a u-boat (don't have the number handy) that was sunk in the middle of nowhere when the u-boat was picked up on passive sonar at a range of 4000 metres. The first that the u-boat knew about it was when a very accurate salvo was delivered.

As such, I am not sure that we can do anything else extra with regards to travelling to the patrol zone.

But what about the Bay of Biscay'? Unless I am not thinking outside the square enough, I do not know what extra can we do here? We cannot hide any better than the real Captains did, nor is the run with the deck awash' a valid tactic.

Wether or not we have the travel by map' or in person' to the patrol zone we will get the same contact experiences. That is, when a plane comes into site there is as far as I can see no difference to going from the map' to in person' to going from in person' to in person'.

I must say though, that I do not think that I would accept only the map' view within the patrol zone.

I hope that this answers your question.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

Teddy Bar
06-29-2004, 10:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno_Lotse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drym:
My understanding is that there will be random encounters on the way to the patrol zone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How they gonna to do it? Something like this:
A message to the Commander. "And now our auto-pilot is temporarily going off-line, because in twenty minutes you're scheduled for a very random and very unexpected encounter with a British hunter-killer group. In the meantime, please, DO NOT CHANGE YOUR HEADING, otherwise you're risking missing your very random and very unexpected encounter." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
Bruno Lotse
U743

[This message was edited by Bruno_Lotse on Tue June 29 2004 at 07:36 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They will do it the same way as it is done when you have time compression on in the 'first person' mode (at the patrol zone) wether you are in the zoomed map, world map or on the deck.

There is nothing magical.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

TASKFORCE1x1
06-29-2004, 10:30 PM
I feel the best solution is to have support from both our luftwaffe and ships at sea. When they spot something they should report their findings and show a shadowed icon of enemy on the map. When we see ships spotted they should show red. We should be aloud to intercept the convoys soon after. In GNBNA (great naval battles) you can deploy these aircraft and ships all over the map as to help cut through the "fog-of-war" and find the enemy. I feel this is the best way. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Keep on Smiling'

HeibgesU999
06-29-2004, 11:23 PM
the end-user should not be able to figure out exactly where the encounter spawns from or where it is until it is picked up on sensors.

the encounters should occur in such a manner that the uboat captain must react to action of any type, from any bearing, on any course, at any speed, and where applicable, at any altitude, or any depth.

there are 129,000 possible combinations of heading and bearing alone. one encounter your watch sights a wall of smoke coming over the horizon steaming right towards you. the next encounter, an especially alert lookout spots a single puff of smoke in the rear quarter steaming obliquely away from you.

bertgang
06-30-2004, 08:53 AM
I don't like at all the forced navigation, but what Teddy Bar wrote is true: no big difference with free courses in time compression, not unrealistic when assuming some order by BdU.
Furthermore, it could be a good way to avoid crazy patrols with crazy tonnages.
Anyway, I supspect that the main reason for this choice is to save time and work, lefting great part of the virtual world totally empty.

jeroen-79
06-30-2004, 09:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertgang:
not unrealistic when assuming some order by BdU.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Quite unrealistic actually, historic U-boat commanders would have to plot the course to their patrol area themselves, and in those days navigation didn't consist of placing waypoint on a map with a mouse and letting GPS do the rest.

bertgang
06-30-2004, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen-79:
historic U-boat commanders would have to plot the course to their patrol area themselves, and in those days navigation didn't consist of placing waypoint on a map with a mouse and letting GPS do the rest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's true, but their choice wasn't totally free; they probably had a time limit, and a general order about the course to follow.
As for patrol areas, surely BdU wanted his subs dispersed on different ways; a good manner to increase opportunities of spotting something.

jeroen-79
06-30-2004, 11:37 AM
Well, I am mainly interested in the work required to get there, instead of having the freedom to do whatever you want.

bertgang
06-30-2004, 12:00 PM
Totally agreed.

Josef_Murnau
06-30-2004, 02:42 PM
Dear Teddy B¤r
Thanks for your fast reply, but - sorry I stil didn't get your point.
I understood already, that you take the auto grid map travel as a good design decision. My question was: Why?
Or more precise: Why do you think, the auto grid map travel is superior to the normal timeaccelerated travel?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I must say though, that I do not think that I would accept only the map' view within the patrol zone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

May be the main difference between us is, that for me the patrol didn't start in the patrol zone.
It starts outside the harbour. May be if you get this point, you'll understand, why I (and some others) don't like this auto grid map travel.

Greetings
Josef Murnau

HeibgesU999
06-30-2004, 04:17 PM
I think everyone would prefer so sail from uboat pen to uboat pen. but if this is not to be, and considering the glaring deficiencies of SH2, I think there are more important issues they can concentrate on.

Bruno_Lotse
06-30-2004, 07:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teddy Bar:
But what about the Bay of Biscay'? Unless I am not thinking outside the square enough, I do not know what extra can we do here? We cannot hide any better than the real Captains did, nor is the run with the deck awash' a valid tactic.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
'We ran with our decks awash, our bow and stern buoyancy tanks preflooded for instant diving, and our harts in our mouths. Every hour we spent in our nightmarish passage through these dangerous waters was likely to be our last one.'
This is how Commander Herbert A. Werner describes his passage through the Biscay Bay on U-230 in the early November 1943 (Iron Coffins, p.171, ISBN 0-306-81160-X).

So, why deck-awash running is not a valid tactics? Was it not possible technically? I do strongly doubt. I'd rather agree with the following opinion expressed in one of the posts in Subsim.com;
'In U-boats from type VII onwards, the intake for the diesels was just at under the metal flooring of the AA gun platform at the aft conning tower. ("wintergarten"). U-boats could go decks awash all over the ocean.... but it was not done except on calm waters because with the sub at such a low profile it was extremely unsafe for the lookout crew because they could drown or be washed from the conning tower (the most frequent cause of accidental death on U-boats). Driving the sub in this condition also slowed it down due to the bigger submerged mass and consequent drag.'
Kron161 (http://207.44.164.159/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23050&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=14)
It was definitely challenging to run a boat deck-awash and it was exhausting for a crew because dive-planes and other buoyancy controls should be constantly manned. Yet these are essentially the same challenges for the crew as driving boat on a Snorkel.
Werner mentioned another tactics in crossing The Death Valley - going at night on the surface on electric motors. That was necessary to sneak through killer-hunter groups or to avoid detonation of acoustic mines. As long as they felt safe they would sprint with all the power of their diesels. When danger again - back to the electric motors. They also used to dive in irregular intervals to figure out location of the enemy. So, deck-awash, diesel, E-Maschinen, sometimes very slow, sometimes - very fast, diving for a water-check, by-passing certain areas where only Kapitan's gut-feeling tells him there might be a danger - there is a lot of 'extra' we can do while crossing Biscay, i.e. going home. Auto-pilot will rob us from all these realism features. Does an auto-pilot have gut-feelings?

Bruno Lotse
U743

Prince_Eugen
07-12-2004, 12:23 AM
This is the only issue I have with the game so far, and it's a big one...

I didn't mind this feature in SH1 because I am under the impression that the voyage across the pacific was pretty uneventful...but in the Atlantic players need the challenge of getting to their patrol area evading air cover along the way. Game companies seem to have a compulsion to give us everything we want in a game except for one critical thing that makes us want a sequel, then the sequel has it but lacks something else. SH2 and their sailing model, SH2 and the dynamic campaign, and now this **** about starting in the patrol area...why bother with the campaign at all then?...why not just pump it out before Q5 with a load of canned mission so we can get on with the next subsim and whatever built-in redundancy that comes with it. Hollywood would love to make each sequel better than the last in every possible way, computer games have the ability to do this and frequently throw it away.

If it's a cash cow you're looking for, how about releasing the most definitive submarine simulation ever and topping it with expansions (like The Sims) I'm sure there will be no shortage of ideas for them in these forums. I hate to sound disrespectful, but SH3 sounds like the subsim I've wanted for a while but for this (In my opinion) critical failing.

Monkeywho
07-12-2004, 01:19 AM
Ummm. . .the SH3 Dev team IS correcting this if my understanding is correct. In fact SH3 is being delayed until 2005 specifically so this can be corrected. A dynamic campaign I believe at least including COMPLETE control of the sub from the U-Boat pen to the patrol zone and back again AS WELL AS random? ship convoy lanes utilized in the game. I am not saying this is correct, but this is my rough understanding of the current situation.

Please give the devs a chance. They have been listening to the subsim community so far.

Peace.

Pappy55
07-12-2004, 04:45 AM
a very good point Monkeywho,I hate it when people keep having a go at games before thee even released, the dev team is listening to the comunity and trying to sort things out that are wanted in the game, i have faith that its going to be good, SH2 lost sales becuse of what it lacked. I dont think they would make the same mistake twice to be honest, all we can do is wait to hear the dev updates.

sdcruz
07-30-2004, 05:54 AM
I cant believe SAV22 does not use time compression greater than 4 X - thats hardcore!
WOW!

bertgang
07-30-2004, 06:47 AM
I know people who plays real time or, at least, says to do so.
I wonder how could be possible,

LayLoo
07-30-2004, 07:54 AM
yep.. i agree with you all that this is a important matter in the game and should get some chat time. somone should bring this up in subsim aswell. though in sh2 it realy didnt matter too travel too or from a patrol point dew too the fact that we didnt have a dynamic game engine so the ships and weather where always the same and in the same places so i wouldnt care too travel at 1x or even 4x i just got there as fast as i could and ziped around till i found or cought upto somthing knowing they where always in the same places and so where the dds, this got real boring after a month playing solo, but with dynamic weather and diffrent ship placing seaguls and sea life, it would be real diffrent and i would realy like too travel around if i wonted too back and forth too my patrol zones.. there was just as much risk in getting there and getting home in the later hafe of the war as getting into a attack.. most uboats where sunk in rout buy planes and it should be thus in the game..remeber they are finding uboats alover and not in some of the patrol zones they where sopost too be in or sunk in and they dont know why they where in some of thouse places.

like negus1 said and he is so right about it:
the commander's plan of crossing the biscay made the difference between a successful u-boat and ... a dead u-boat especially after 1943.

[This message was edited by LayLoo on Fri July 30 2004 at 07:08 AM.]

LayLoo
07-30-2004, 09:53 AM
i asked about this matter in subsim and this was what i got back from Bertgang:

that part was planned at the beginning; now it seems that Dev Team is thinking different, and free navigation will be possible

bertgang
07-30-2004, 10:01 AM
Yes, it's my answer.
I'm quite sure to have read that, in THIS forum, but I'm unable to find the source again.

Drebbel
07-30-2004, 01:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertgang:
Yes, it's my answer.
I'm quite sure to have read that, in THIS forum, but I'm unable to find the source again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"....The 'autopilot' to the battlezone is now only an option in the realistic-menu?
Yes. It will be the player's choice to travel automatically in the patrol area....."

HeibgesU999
07-30-2004, 01:06 PM
But if you travel there on your own or not, will the chance of random encounters be the same. It should be.

der|zerst0rer|
07-31-2004, 10:06 AM
Hot damn, this I did not know http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
I totally agree with the majority here that if you can't control how you get to the Patrol Zone, it's just not a proper simulation...
I too enjoy those moments where you feel all alone out on the great ocean, looking at stars and beautiful sunsets! This free roaming feature is a must!
I'm just thinking of all the breathtaking sequences I've experienced in Operation Flashpoint, when often having to travel from one side of an island to another(taking you half a day). It's how you get there and what might happen on the way that matters. OFP is the one and only military sim (so far) that really delivers. I was hoping for SHIII to be the next great warfare sim but I guess I was wrong... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

---------------------------------------------
"Victim is your name, and you shall fall"

macker33
07-31-2004, 10:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LayLoo:
yep.. but with dynamic weather and diffrent ship placing seaguls and sea life,
[This message was edited by LayLoo on Fri July 30 2004 at 07:08 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well i'm probably the only one but i reckon some attention to sea and coastal life wouldnt be a dead loss.It might be an easy thing to get wrong so the dev team might play safe with it.

hauitsme
08-01-2004, 01:43 AM
Plant & animal life in the game! Great, do we get to shoot them too? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Foehnfrisur
08-01-2004, 02:05 AM
4x time compression max? Thats nuts and a total game killer. Very few people would have the nerve (or the time) to play with a TC like that.

I really dont know your issues with that- it is very easy: if you dont like a high time compression because "it is unrealistic", then simply dont use it. But the players who dont like to use up their years holidays to make one patrol can still use 2048x or whatever is necesarry to make a nice and smooth patrol.

Drebbel
08-01-2004, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I totally agree with the majority here that if you can't control how you get to the Patrol Zone, it's just not a proper simulation...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SHIII will give you the choice: Autopilot to patrol box, or sail yourself !

jmuhlman
08-01-2004, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
A captain went to, and stayed where he was told too. The area that he may have to patrol could be small or cover hundreds of square miles. What never happened was a Captain deciding that the allotted area is a little quite so head over to the other side of England.

Teddy B¤r<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I Have to disagree here. type II and type VII captains involved in the convoy battles yes, they were under a pretty tight set of rules.....
but type IX captains on long distance voyages to the indian ocean, south atlantic, U.S. east coast and carribean were pretty much given free rule to make thier own choices...in fact uboat commander on these voyages had more room to make thier own plans than top generals... and were out of radio contact with BDU anyway. some type IX's were on patrol for months on end....I've read accounts of uboat captains sailing near virginia, finding the ASW too thick and deciding on thier own to head up to new york....likewise, many captains found ASW too thick off canada, and headed south to american waters...they did NOT check with BDU before doing this. they just made the choice and DID IT. Also , there are many many accounts of Uboats running into enough ships BEFORE THEY EVEN REACHED THIER PATROL ZONES that they ran out of torpedos and had to return home...
anyway, allt his could be built into the game...for instance if a player gets and order to go to grid ap3456 and he goes the other direction he could, after sending a few position reports to BDU, get a repley like this:
"U345, change course and return to your patrol zone immediatley.----BDU" and if the captain doesn't do it...he gets reprimanded, or worse!!!
Besides, I think part of the fun is simply getting to you patrol area...it's funny that you bring up DAS BOOT...probably the most exciting part is the passage through gibralter..which as you remember is NOT THE PATROL ZONE, but on the WAY to a new base....if the game is as described, you would leave your old base and BLEEP appear in the meditteranean without the excitment of passing through Gibralter. also part of the fun is trying to get home in a damaged ship with low fuel....I hate just typing "return to base" and there you are...

[This message was edited by jmuhlman on Sun August 01 2004 at 05:56 PM.]

HeibgesU999
08-01-2004, 06:51 PM
You forgot to mention the random encounters which are part of the voyage to the patrol zone. The number of random encounters should be roughly the same no matter how you choose to get to your patrol area.

karlem0nster
08-04-2004, 07:59 PM
a major aspect of uboat life is boredom... and then the tension and routine when the enemy has been encountered or you're on the way to attack him... that has been simulated well in SH2... if you leave that aspect away... you will have an acrade uboat game which (me thinks) most of the SH fans will dislike... there will be no happyness after driving 2 weeks through the ocean when you see the first enemy ships at the horizon...
but guess i tell nuttin' new here... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

woah...sind ja viele landsleute hier... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

macker33
08-11-2004, 12:59 AM
Its probably been mentioned already but is it possible to have realistic navigation,navigation isnt that hard,all you need is a sextant to measure the angle of the north star for longtitude and to know how many degrees left or right of the greenwitch mean line for latitude.

http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Slatlong.htm


http://www.open2.net/science/roughscience/where/where_index.htm#

jeroen-79
08-12-2004, 11:38 AM
Actually, you measure the angle between the horizon and Polaris to get your latitude, ie where you are north-south.
There will be a small error as Polaris is a degree or so off of the north.
This could be done in SH2.

To determine your longitude, ie where you are east-west, you must observe an event (sunrise, sunset, noon, etc) and determine how much sooner or later it occurs relative to the same event observed at 0? longitude.
To do this you need to know the times of these events on the prime meridian and a clock showing the time at the prime meridian.
SH2 lacked these and longitude could not be determined.

So apart from a proper celestial model we need a good sextant, a book with events and their times and a clock showing GMT.

Rommel McDonald
08-12-2004, 12:21 PM
Teddy Bar is entitled to his opinion too... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

With any simulation, it is a balancing act to decide what to include in a game, because contrary to popular belief, companies cannot spend unlimited time and money on every game. They cant even spend unlimited time and money on one game - the company would never make its money back and would go out of business.

So they have to figure out how many copies of the game will be sold and make the game according to the amount of money it will make. Compared to FPS and console games, PC Simulators do not sell a lot of copies. Due to this fact, companies cannot put everything into a game that will make all players happy.

There has to be a line drawn regarding what is important to the gameplay and what will not used very much by many people. Even if some feature will be used by many people, sometimes the time, work and resources needed to make it work are not worth the end result. (its too costly for a minor feature, etc)

In history, UBoat crew picked their noses and wiped their butts, but this doesnt mean it needs to be modelled in the game. The game can still be good without many "real" things. I agree that travelling to and from a patrol zone is a fundamental part of uboats, but we must also keep in mind that some things will not be implemented so that other things CAN be in the game and working well.

This is a PC game and has limitations. Even if they had all the time and money in the world, there would still be things that are "not real".

I wish everything could be made real, but I am also a long time simulation enthusiast and understand that this is just not possible. That's why I am working on a time machine - then I can really be a Uboat Commander!

Cheers,

Rommel McDonald
U-420
11. Unterseebootflottille
Bergen, Norway

macker33
08-12-2004, 09:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen-79:

To determine your longitude, ie where you are east-west, you must observe an event (sunrise, sunset, noon, etc)
To do this you need to know the times of these events on the prime meridian and a clock showing the time at the prime meridian.
SH2 lacked these and longitude could not be determined.

So apart from a proper celestial model we need a good sextant, a book with events and their times and a clock showing GMT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well in the captains quarters there is a sunrise and moonrise calender,you could get gmt sunrise reports from uboat headquarters and do your sums from there.

North and south is easy as long as you have clear weather.

With these 2 it would be very easy to determine where you are.As long as there are fairly accurate constellations(just enough to do the job anyway)and some good charts with accurate landmarks(light houses etc)worked out it should be a breeze to navigate and at least we will have the option to turn off the phoney icons in the map screen,

A poster by the name of prinz eugen said something not so long ago about having good maps with pencil marks on them,you should be able to place your own markers on the map screen,It was all too easy to fire and forget in sh2.It would be nice to have a working sextant.

Joe the Killerman
08-13-2004, 03:37 AM
Actually, I used the feature of writing on the map in SH2. Make easier to plan a convoy attack.

Das Panzerkunst!

macker33
08-15-2004, 01:33 AM
Can you write on the maps in sh2?i thought all you could do is set way points and select targets.

A thing about navigating subs in wwii,they must have got lost a lot of the time,in bad weather how did they get their bearings?in bad weather you cant use the sextant and bad weather probably affected radio communications as well.
Can you navigate the same as you could in an aeroplane by using a watch,speed dial and compass?

jeroen-79
08-15-2004, 08:01 AM
Dead reckoning works on subs too.

Navigation could be done by celestial navigation, sighting and triangulating landmarks and dead reckoning.

macker33
08-15-2004, 11:24 PM
Imagine if the navigater got it,you could be driving around in circles for weeks.
Although it would be stupid for any commander in any field not to teach his crew each others jobs.

hauitsme
08-15-2004, 11:45 PM
Basic navigation would be part of any Naval Officer course, so to lose your Navigator wouldn't be the end (unless ALL of the officers are lost) , but then YOU would be dead too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hauitsme/beatnik.gif

macker33
08-16-2004, 01:20 AM
Not if i was in the engine or torpedo room telling the lackeys that they should work harder and settle for less breaks.

macker33
08-16-2004, 11:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe the Killerman:
Actually, I used the feature of writing on the map in SH2. Make easier to plan a convoy attack.

Das Panzerkunst!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Much appreciated joe,i checked it out and you were telling the truth,nice one

WTE_Sikshoota
08-17-2004, 01:09 AM
S` Gentlemen

What a topic eh... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its easier for us all to simply hope that the Devs may have already considered that the best way to get sales of their prize program is in fact to satisfy the majority!

To exclude the interests of devotees whether they be full on simulation addicts or at the other end of the scale, simply gamers looking for a quick fix, would be sad.

So whats the problem (as has been mentioned elsewhere I believe) with including both options? ie to EITHER warp OR sail in real/scaled time to the patrol zone irrespective of individual reasons for/against.
This lets Purists be Purists & Gamers be Gamers.

Someone else posted that the Dev Team have determined to do it this way... in the interests of ALL then I'm sure most of us would be content with it that way.

... & without doubt, the Dev Team are doing a great job overall.

Hopefully, they can cover all bases & still keep to their forecast release time...

Think Positive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Sik

Sartori23
08-17-2004, 08:12 AM
I don't post here much, but I thought I would chime in so Bruno doesn't feel left out.

I like to run my patrols at 1x in SHII. Yes it does take a couple of weeks to complete a mission, but I feel it really adds to the immersion. It actually gives you incentive to be careful in planning your attack. If you simply zip to the encounter, you don't have much to lose by going in gung ho and taking excessive risks. Investing a few days effort really adds excitment and a real sense of danger to the encounter.

That said I hope the developers, give those of us who want to sail in real time the opportunity to do so, as well as allowing those who just want to get in some quick action the ability to warp to the patrol zone. I don't see why everyone thinks it has to be one way or the other.

Regards,
Sartori23

Xanthippus
08-17-2004, 09:33 AM
Hard-core Sartori, hard-core!

U-551 Kapitan
08-17-2004, 09:45 AM
One problem I'd see if I played it in real time is that I'd get really pissed off after I've spent two weeks at sea and I'm on my way home after a job well done and I drive right into a mine. Then I'd have to do anotehr 2 weeks work.

Torpedo incoming off the port bow!

jeroen-79
08-17-2004, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
I'd get really pissed off after I've spent two weeks at sea and I'm on my way home after a job well done and I drive right into a mine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sure the real submariners had the same feeling.

SailorSteve
08-17-2004, 04:58 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

______________________________

The poster said "Join The Navy, See The World". So I did, and I'm here to tell you, the world is flat and blue.

HeibgesU999
08-17-2004, 06:24 PM
You must be playing the stock scenarios, if it only takes you 2 weeks to finish in real time. These stock missions are totally unrealistic.

Playing in totally in real time is impractical on a historically authentic 8 week war patrol. But in 30 years, if I am retired, I may change my mind. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif