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Ash_is_bae
02-13-2017, 01:27 AM
I played in all alpha and beta tests, I played all classes with 3 mains (lawbringer, nobushi, warden) and I wanna give my thoughts on an overview of all classes in beta as the game is close to release:
-------------------------------- TLDR LIST --------------------------------
TOP TIER

-Warden
-Warlord
-Nobushi

MEDIOCRE

-Conq
-Peacemaker
-Orochi
-Berserker

BOTTOM TIER

-Raider
-Kensei
------------------------------- EXPLANATION ----------------------------
-Warden

This guy is a hidden OP char just from his 2 moves: zone attack and up light which are extremely fast and have decent damage. He can play very defensive and use only 2 moves to harass to secure a win. He can also play standard with you with his shoulder bash + side attack x2 mix up which are annoying to deal with. (learn to dodge rather than block in the middle of a chain)
One more thing to explain why these 2 moves are op - Normally you can counter this type of play by having your guard up at a default direction, however warden is the only character with 2 ultra fast / decent dmg moves like this so there's no way to prepare for both of them using a default guard position.

-Conquerer

He is annoying to play against since you have to bait him to attack (and his slow attacks have odd timings) or do feints in attempt to try to catch him off guard. You also have to be wary of his shield bash combos and have to learn to dodge instead of block to play against decent Conqs. Other than that he is kind of slow and predictable there's nothing flashy he can do to make you panic.

-Peacemaker

Contrary to popular belief I don't think she is that OP. The most annoying thing I found about her was people with laggy internet spamming lights and heavys which skews your parry timings. Most people find her OP because of her grab llight x3 but most people who can counter-grab consistently shouldn't struggle with that most of the time.

-Raider

This guy needs a buff as he doesn't really have any special moves that are memorable other than some unblockable swings which have very obvious parry timings (probably due to shape of the weapon) and some grab + dazed gimmicks but otherwise very weak.

-Warlord

One of the strongest characters with warden atm. His headbutt is very easy to execute meaning you can easily force someone out of turtle mode and trade with you. His superarmor passive with light and heavy attacks will win you trades every time if you know what you're doing. His block stance allows for a large margin of error as you don't have to parry your opponent to punish you can just block into headbutt into combo to punish.

-Berserker

Annoying to play against. Basically a different version of peacemaker without the bleeds. Against laggy opponents it's obnoxious to play against but otherwise you can keep blocking until you are comfortable with her slow/fast attacks timings to parry and go on the offensive. (If you feint heavy a berserker she will most likely do the sidespin attack etc)

-Kensei

Not much going on with this guy either, he seems to be a better version of raider with more feint options and unblockable chains. Haven't really played any top top level Kensei players tbh.

-Nobushi

I would rank her 3rd strongest after warden and warlord. She can easily apply bleeds with her dash light attacks but the parry timing is very easy once you get the hang of it. She has a lot of mix ups with kick into poison and feints but struggles to trade some chars like warden because zone attacks will outrade her light stabs everytime.

-Orochi

Another mediocre character. She was once deemed as "very op" by most people until they nerfed some of her kit. Most of her strength now comes from the fast up light x2 combo and her back dash (forgot what its called) mix up. There doesn't seem to be many good players playing her as most of the Orochi's I come across fall flat after they try to spam either her side dash attacks or her up light x2.

zesilo
02-13-2017, 01:28 AM
Sorry I don't really agree with this at all.

Ash_is_bae
02-13-2017, 01:29 AM
Sorry I don't really agree with this at all.
Which part?

zesilo
02-13-2017, 01:32 AM
I believe Orochi is top tier, warden is mediocre, nobushi medocre. kensei is the only "low" tier.

Ash_is_bae
02-13-2017, 01:33 AM
I believe Orochi is top tier, warden is mediocre, nobushi medocre. kensei is the only "low" tier.

How is orochi top tier? She doesn't really have notable special moves besides her up light x2? and her backdash into heavy attack gimmick?

zesilo
02-13-2017, 01:36 AM
and their deflect into light or heavy attack makes them great to counter other assassins, you can cancel the backdash for any other move, you have a special step back (dodges) into heavy attack combo (again great for other assassins).

Arkhos1988
02-13-2017, 01:41 AM
A tier list that doesnt specify for which game mode seems utterly useless. Sure in 1v1 a fast runner isnt that great in 4v4 it makes a huge diffrence if you are cordinated.
Doesnt matter if i agree or i dont, i just think it's to generalized.

PackingMoney
02-13-2017, 01:42 AM
I played in all alpha and beta tests, I played all classes with 3 mains (lawbringer, nobushi, warden) and I wanna give my thoughts on an overview of all classes in beta as the game is close to release:
-------------------------------- TLDR LIST --------------------------------
TOP TIER

-Warden
-Warlord
-Nobushi

MEDIOCRE

-Conq
-Peacemaker
-Orochi
-Berserker

BOTTOM TIER

-Raider
-Kensei
------------------------------- EXPLANATION ----------------------------
-Warden

This guy is a hidden OP char just from his 2 moves: zone attack and up light which are extremely fast and have decent damage. He can play very defensive and use only 2 moves to harass to secure a win. He can also play standard with you with his shoulder bash + side attack x2 mix up which are annoying to deal with. (learn to dodge rather than block in the middle of a chain)
One more thing to explain why these 2 moves are op - Normally you can counter this type of play by having your guard up at a default direction, however warden is the only character with 2 ultra fast / decent dmg moves like this so there's no way to prepare for both of them using a default guard position.

-Conquerer

He is annoying to play against since you have to bait him to attack (and his slow attacks have odd timings) or do feints in attempt to try to catch him off guard. You also have to be wary of his shield bash combos and have to learn to dodge instead of block to play against decent Conqs. Other than that he is kind of slow and predictable there's nothing flashy he can do to make you panic.

-Peacemaker

Contrary to popular belief I don't think she is that OP. The most annoying thing I found about her was people with laggy internet spamming lights and heavys which skews your parry timings. Most people find her OP because of her grab llight x3 but most people who can counter-grab consistently shouldn't struggle with that most of the time.

-Raider

This guy needs a buff as he doesn't really have any special moves that are memorable other than some unblockable swings which have very obvious parry timings (probably due to shape of the weapon) and some grab + dazed gimmicks but otherwise very weak.

-Warlord

One of the strongest characters with warden atm. His headbutt is very easy to execute meaning you can easily force someone out of turtle mode and trade with you. His superarmor passive with light and heavy attacks will win you trades every time if you know what you're doing. His block stance allows for a large margin of error as you don't have to parry your opponent to punish you can just block into headbutt into combo to punish.

-Berserker

Annoying to play against. Basically a different version of peacemaker without the bleeds. Against laggy opponents it's obnoxious to play against but otherwise you can keep blocking until you are comfortable with her slow/fast attacks timings to parry and go on the offensive. (If you feint heavy a berserker she will most likely do the sidespin attack etc)

-Kensei

Not much going on with this guy either, he seems to be a better version of raider with more feint options and unblockable chains. Haven't really played any top top level Kensei players tbh.

-Nobushi

I would rank her 3rd strongest after warden and warlord. She can easily apply bleeds with her dash light attacks but the parry timing is very easy once you get the hang of it. She has a lot of mix ups with kick into poison and feints but struggles to trade some chars like warden because zone attacks will outrade her light stabs everytime.

-Orochi

Another mediocre character. She was once deemed as "very op" by most people until they nerfed some of her kit. Most of her strength now comes from the fast up light x2 combo and her back dash (forgot what its called) mix up. There doesn't seem to be many good players playing her as most of the Orochi's I come across fall flat after they try to spam either her side dash attacks or her up light x2.

If you are going to make a tier list it has to be based on actual facts and statistics not just your own personal experience. I also think that some of the characters are misplaced, especially considering that all characters are somewhat balanced and can somewhat cancel each other out if used correctly.

Ash_is_bae
02-13-2017, 01:44 AM
If you are going to make a tier list it has to be based on actual facts and statistics not just your own personal experience. I also think that some of the characters are misplaced, especially considering that all characters are somewhat balanced and can somewhat cancel each other out if used correctly.

I explained the reasoning behind every position diving into every char's strong moves. In contrast, you only voiced your opinion but fail to give any reasoning behind your opinion.


A tier list that doesnt specify for which game mode seems utterly useless. Sure in 1v1 a fast runner isnt that great in 4v4 it makes a huge diffrence if you are cordinated.
Doesnt matter if i agree or i dont, i just think it's to generalized.

I highly doubt if the game is going to be balanced, that it is going to be balanced around anything but 1v1...

zesilo
02-13-2017, 01:47 AM
He did give you reasons. Your tier list is flawed, considering most of this game is rock paper scissors a tier list would be extremely hard to make and will really only have categories of "does good against everything", "is good except when vsing counter" , and "does bad against everything".

Also as previously said, the game mode matters.

Also be considerate, tier lists are almost always opinion based so if someone disagrees try not to be offended.

PackingMoney
02-13-2017, 01:49 AM
I explained the reasoning behind every position diving into every char's strong moves. In contrast, you only voiced your opinion but fail to give any reasoning behind your opinion.



I highly doubt if the game is going to be balanced, that it is going to be balanced around anything but 1v1...

Again, the reasons stated are from your personal experience. You said you haven't played high level Kensei's, that doesn't mean there isn't any.

Also the game is balanced, even in 2/ 3v1s to a degree because of the blocking system of just going the direction they are, and the Revenge mode.

Cryptic_Ophion
02-13-2017, 01:50 AM
Top player with 100% win rate on Duels was maining Kensei.... how is Kensei so low?

Tenmar
02-13-2017, 01:50 AM
You say Warden is top tier but your explanation on what makes him op is the only thing he has. So the moment a player learns how to play around his limited move set (he does have the smallest moveset in the game), the warden won't be top tier.

If anything I'd argue when this game really gets rolling that the warden will be left in the dust because while he is a character that is fundamental to teach players how to play, he really doesn't have anything special that brings anything to the table. The only thing right now that makes him special is light attacks. Left/right stance allows him to do a double swing (if you get the timing right), while the top stance the Warden can parry using a light attack instead of a heavy (which is a big double edge sword in a peer to peer game). Often I have matches where I pull off the top stance counter attack and even though my character flashed signifying that I am countering the hit still goes through. Which, once again, is primarily due to peer to peer as their online solution.

But anything after that, there isn't anything else the Warden doesn't do that's special. The light attack to shoulder charge combo can easily be broken with a dodge and charging up the shoulder charge too much will push the opponent so far that the warden can't follow up with an attack. Even if you do shoulder charge someone the enemy doesn't take any health or stamina damage no are they disoriented to prevent the opponent from knowing what stance the player is using to attack. So an opponent can trade a heavy attack an take a shoulder charge and the opposing player would win.

The Vanguards are certainly built to teach players the basics but even the raider and kensei classes bring something special to the table and have a more expansive moveset than the warden.

It got to the point that once I leveled up to a certain point and started to duel the mode dedicated players that I really couldn't even pull off any of my movesets aside from the light attack, shoulder charge, light attack move. I could never pull off a move that utilized a heavy attack because they were slow and could be easily blocked.

I think if any class that needs a rework it will be the Warden. It is clear he was the class that was designed first but the warden doesn't do anything that the warden can call his own or utilize half of the mechanics of the game.

Ash_is_bae
02-13-2017, 01:50 AM
He did give you reasons. Your tier list is flawed, considering most of this game is rock paper scissors a tier list would be extremely hard to make and will really only have categories of "does good against everything", "is good except when vsing counter" , and "does bad against everything".

Also as previously said, the game mode matters.

Also be considerate, tier lists are almost always opinion based so if someone disagrees try not to be offended.

That's not a reason. He disagrees with the list, and which characters are strong, or your opinion that the game is "rock paper scissors" (???) are opinions. When you evaluate each character based on their traits and moves, that's called supporting evidence which are necessary to back up an opinion. Otherwise, your opinion isn't contributing anything to the discussion if all you do is argue with opinions.

PackingMoney
02-13-2017, 01:53 AM
That's not a reason. He disagrees with the list, and which characters are strong, or your opinion that the game is "rock paper scissors" (???) are opinions. When you evaluate each character based on their traits and moves, that's called supporting evidence which are necessary to back up an opinion. Otherwise, your opinion isn't contributing anything to the discussion if all you do is argue with opinions.

But every player will use the different moves and combos differently, so something you may think is weak, may actually be strong when used by someone else.

Ash_is_bae
02-13-2017, 01:55 AM
You say Warden is top tier but your explanation on what makes him op is the only thing he has. So the moment a player learns how to play around his limited move set (he does have the smallest moveset in the game), the warden won't be top tier.

If anything I'd argue when this game really gets rolling that the warden will be left in the dust because while he is a character that is fundamental to teach players how to play, he really doesn't have anything special that brings anything to the table. The only thing right now that makes him special is light attacks. Left/right stance allows him to do a double swing (if you get the timing right), while the top stance the Warden can parry using a light attack instead of a heavy (which is a big double edge sword in a peer to peer game). Often I have matches where I pull off the top stance counter attack and even though my character flashed signifying that I am countering the hit still goes through. Which, once again, is primarily due to peer to peer as their online solution.

But anything after that, there isn't anything else the Warden doesn't do that's special. The light attack to shoulder charge combo can easily be broken with a dodge and charging up the shoulder charge too much will push the opponent so far that the warden can't follow up with an attack. Even if you do shoulder charge someone the enemy doesn't take any health or stamina damage no are they disoriented to prevent the opponent from knowing what stance the player is using to attack. So an opponent can trade a heavy attack an take a shoulder charge and the opposing player would win.

The Vanguards are certainly built to teach players the basics but even the raider and kensei classes bring something special to the table and have a more expansive moveset than the warden.

It got to the point that once I leveled up to a certain point and started to duel the mode dedicated players that I really couldn't even pull off any of my movesets aside from the light attack, shoulder charge, light attack move. I could never pull off a move that utilized a heavy attack because they were slow and could be easily blocked.

I think if any class that needs a rework it will be the Warden. It is clear he was the class that was designed first but the warden doesn't do anything that the warden can call his own or utilize half of the mechanics of the game.

I don't think you know the Warden even has a special up light move (NOT THE PARRY)...jesus

When you implied that the Warden has a limited moveset and that he is weak I really wonder if you have played in previous tests pre-buff. (Hint: A warden got 2nd in legends tournament in alpha, being on par with pre-nerfed warlord before he got his up light buffed)



But every player will use the different moves and combos differently, so something you may think is weak, may actually be strong when used by someone else.

What does that have to do with anything? If you feel a move or combo are stronger/weaker than mentioned in the thread, feel free to address it directly. Giving opinions as vague arguments (i.e. game is rock paper scissors(still haven't explained this???), tier list is wrong!!!) etc don't really help anyone.

Squalol
02-13-2017, 02:23 AM
-Warden

This guy is a hidden OP char just from his 2 moves: zone attack and up light which are extremely fast and have decent damage. He can play very defensive and use only 2 moves to harass to secure a win. He can also play standard with you with his shoulder bash + side attack x2 mix up which are annoying to deal with. (learn to dodge rather than block in the middle of a chain)
One more thing to explain why these 2 moves are op - Normally you can counter this type of play by having your guard up at a default direction, however warden is the only character with 2 ultra fast / decent dmg moves like this so there's no way to prepare for both of them using a default guard position.






Warden is top tier because he has fast top light and fast area attack. However orochi's top light is also extremely fast (not only that but its double) and also really fast area attack, almost same as warden (plus more options than warden).

IamheiN
02-13-2017, 02:35 AM
I played in all alpha and beta tests, I played all classes with 3 mains (lawbringer, nobushi, warden) and I wanna give my thoughts on an overview of all classes in beta as the game is close to release:
-------------------------------- TLDR LIST --------------------------------
TOP TIER

-Warden
-Warlord
-Nobushi

MEDIOCRE

-Conq
-Peacemaker
-Orochi
-Berserker

BOTTOM TIER

-Raider
-Kensei
------------------------------- EXPLANATION ----------------------------
-Warden

This guy is a hidden OP char just from his 2 moves: zone attack and up light which are extremely fast and have decent damage. He can play very defensive and use only 2 moves to harass to secure a win. He can also play standard with you with his shoulder bash + side attack x2 mix up which are annoying to deal with. (learn to dodge rather than block in the middle of a chain)
One more thing to explain why these 2 moves are op - Normally you can counter this type of play by having your guard up at a default direction, however warden is the only character with 2 ultra fast / decent dmg moves like this so there's no way to prepare for both of them using a default guard position.

-Conquerer

He is annoying to play against since you have to bait him to attack (and his slow attacks have odd timings) or do feints in attempt to try to catch him off guard. You also have to be wary of his shield bash combos and have to learn to dodge instead of block to play against decent Conqs. Other than that he is kind of slow and predictable there's nothing flashy he can do to make you panic.

-Peacemaker

Contrary to popular belief I don't think she is that OP. The most annoying thing I found about her was people with laggy internet spamming lights and heavys which skews your parry timings. Most people find her OP because of her grab llight x3 but most people who can counter-grab consistently shouldn't struggle with that most of the time.

-Raider

This guy needs a buff as he doesn't really have any special moves that are memorable other than some unblockable swings which have very obvious parry timings (probably due to shape of the weapon) and some grab + dazed gimmicks but otherwise very weak.

-Warlord

One of the strongest characters with warden atm. His headbutt is very easy to execute meaning you can easily force someone out of turtle mode and trade with you. His superarmor passive with light and heavy attacks will win you trades every time if you know what you're doing. His block stance allows for a large margin of error as you don't have to parry your opponent to punish you can just block into headbutt into combo to punish.

-Berserker

Annoying to play against. Basically a different version of peacemaker without the bleeds. Against laggy opponents it's obnoxious to play against but otherwise you can keep blocking until you are comfortable with her slow/fast attacks timings to parry and go on the offensive. (If you feint heavy a berserker she will most likely do the sidespin attack etc)

-Kensei

Not much going on with this guy either, he seems to be a better version of raider with more feint options and unblockable chains. Haven't really played any top top level Kensei players tbh.

-Nobushi

I would rank her 3rd strongest after warden and warlord. She can easily apply bleeds with her dash light attacks but the parry timing is very easy once you get the hang of it. She has a lot of mix ups with kick into poison and feints but struggles to trade some chars like warden because zone attacks will outrade her light stabs everytime.

-Orochi

Another mediocre character. She was once deemed as "very op" by most people until they nerfed some of her kit. Most of her strength now comes from the fast up light x2 combo and her back dash (forgot what its called) mix up. There doesn't seem to be many good players playing her as most of the Orochi's I come across fall flat after they try to spam either her side dash attacks or her up light x2.

I agree on everything, Warden is an underrated character, prolly the strongest in the game atm. For me the shoulder bash is what makes him so good.

Ash_is_bae
02-13-2017, 02:36 AM
Warden is top tier because he has fast top light and fast area attack. However orochi's top light is also extremely fast (not only that but its double) and also really fast area attack, almost same as warden (plus more options than warden).

Ok I can agree that orochi has almost equal the harassment capabilities as a warden in a neutral battle. Warden has a uplight parry built into his already ultra fast up light attack, and I'm not exactly sure if orochi's zone attack is actually as good as wardens (the range doesn't seem close, have to check when game comes out)

However, orochi has an inherent flaw of all assassins, he cannot keep his guard up at all in a neutral game. Thus, if an orochi goes up against a warden and they both start spamming zone and uplight attacks, the warden only has to worry about reacting to one direction (he can have his default guard at TOP or side). Meanwhile an orochi cannot hold his guard and he has to react to 2 guards instead of 1.