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View Full Version : Dash attacks break the game.



Derity
02-13-2017, 12:08 AM
Sidestep attacks are just simply too powerful in this game and they come at no risk for great reward. Dashing alone is what make Peacekeeper, Orochi and Berserker the easiest to play and in my opinion some of the most powerful characters in the game.

DASH NEEDS TO TAKE STAMINA. It is so ridiculous that this isn't the case right now, and because of this, players are dashing around randomly not caring at all about stamina management.

Out of stamina and about to get punished? Who cares, just dash around, you'll be back to full stamina ready to dash attack your opponent in no time!
Having trouble learning how to time Parries? Who cares, just side dash and use that as your counter attack instead!

I'm the kind of player that shy's away from using characters that I believe to be "Overpowered" and to me it's a shame because in For Honor, my personal favourite character is Berserker - I LOVE the Berserker (female) character design and I really wanted to main her, now that I have good experience with most-every character (I've played all Alpha and Beta tests) I feel like I'm forced into playing a character that I don't like so much, because my favourite is one of the dash abusing scumbag characters. So now I've taken to Warden as he feels like to me the most "normal balanced" character in the game.

Anyway I'm kinda getting off topic now, but I hope my point resonates with some of you, I really do enjoy this game and I'm definitely buying it day one, but I wish that during one of the beta's Ubisoft actually listened, because I've read it countless times - people suggesting that the Dash should take Stamina but so far, Ubisoft seems to either not be listening or just ignoring the critique.

Thats all I guess, see you all at release!!

TL;DR: Dashing overall is broken because it takes 0 stamina, unlike every other action in the entire game. Please fix.

Baine1
02-13-2017, 12:12 AM
Guardbreak > dash

zesilo
02-13-2017, 12:13 AM
No risk great reward? If you parry a sidestep or dash you have an incredible amount of time to attack your opponent into a guard break or combo or even a feint into another parry.

DivineImpalerX
02-13-2017, 12:14 AM
Guardbreak > dash

^ This ... if they only dash they can`t counter GB = free GB

If they spam dash attacks feint into parry or feint into blocks

OR just play kensei and armor through ^^

xilixer
02-13-2017, 12:19 AM
Guardbreak > dash

thats another problem. guard break shouldn't be a counter to side dashing. as a matter of fact counter guard breaking needs a buff.

Sirrkas
02-13-2017, 12:20 AM
I havenīt faced those dashattacks very often yet, but donīt they allways come from the same direction?

RazhemUplay
02-13-2017, 12:27 AM
All dashes always always always come from the same direction. Facing a peacekeeper? Always guard to the top since her lunge only comes from the top, she sidesteps right? change guard to right just in case, left? same story. The sidesteps and lunges can't be fainted so they will commit to them and they can be punished hard by it with parries. Also, like stated, guardbreak ****s on dodge happy guys. This is all coming from a Kensei player who got used to winning by just sidestep dodging and attacking all over the place only to end up fighting people who would instantly parry any attempt to do that **** or guardbreak it instantly. It's a nice crutch that will get you wins at low level, but at high level it will only get you killed.

kirisute
02-13-2017, 12:28 AM
Played a match earlier against two players who literally just ran around! Attacked then ran off and never actually entered guard mode throughout the entire match.
Yes it was effective, yes it was ****ing annoying, and yes, for me it ruined the match.
Trouble is I don't know the solution. If you add stamina to the sprint mechanic then you can't run to fight hotspots or capture points etc
You limit the players mobility around the battlefield and limit the overall dynamic of movement in the game.
Maybe you could add a sprint "cool down"
Thereby allowing full sprint around the battlefield but as soon as you attack you cant sprint for 10 secs or whatever!
Problem solved.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 12:33 AM
Dash attacks cannot be canceled (save the warden's shoulder bash for whatever reason). I see forsee later in the game's life dash attacks won't be as effective for initiating a fight or used as often mainly because they are easier to parry and offer little mix-up potential. Now dash mix-ups I can see offering better mix-ups.

Zemus-
02-13-2017, 12:39 AM
Parry=Dead Assassin class if all they do is side attack dash. Open a custom game and practice it

GNASHSAMA
02-13-2017, 12:44 AM
thats another problem. guard break shouldn't be a counter to side dashing. as a matter of fact counter guard breaking needs a buff.

How do you guys always find excuses to come up with stuff like "this and this needs a buff" or "this and this need a nerf"?


Counter a guardbreak with intuition and a light or zone attack. Counter a dash to the side with a zone attack or a guardbreak. It's obvious.

Godsplitter1991
02-13-2017, 12:45 AM
So basically you want my main mechanic to penalize me when used? Yeah gtfo here bro, hit the lab and learn to counter it.

Cheez137
02-13-2017, 12:57 AM
All dashes always always always come from the same direction. Facing a peacekeeper? Always guard to the top since her lunge only comes from the top, she sidesteps right? change guard to right just in case, left? same story. The sidesteps and lunges can't be fainted so they will commit to them and they can be punished hard by it with parries. Also, like stated, guardbreak ****s on dodge happy guys. This is all coming from a Kensei player who got used to winning by just sidestep dodging and attacking all over the place only to end up fighting people who would instantly parry any attempt to do that **** or guardbreak it instantly. It's a nice crutch that will get you wins at low level, but at high level it will only get you killed.

As one who used the Peacekeeper as my main you are exactly right. But like all good gamers I change my tactics to suit the battle. If an enemy starts countering the dash/ lung attack I would go to full combos and power attacks using the side step dash only as a counter to an attack because PK has weak defense. But yes you have a great point.

RazhemUplay
02-13-2017, 01:15 AM
As one who used the Peacekeeper as my main you are exactly right. But like all good gamers I change my tactics to suit the battle. If an enemy starts countering the dash/ lung attack I would go to full combos and power attacks using the side step dash only as a counter to an attack because PK has weak defense. But yes you have a great point.
Pretty much the same for me, forced me into a much slower tempo where I only did them to punish the enemy starting aggression and between that doing some guardbreaks and normal light attack poking. Then I just went Conquerer and Warden to learn proper defense and probably a lot better for it.

Bob__Gnarly
02-13-2017, 01:21 AM
Another 'can't work out a counter, so nerf it' thread. GG

Assassins rely on dashing for their defence as they have low HP and inferior blocking. You'll work out how to fight them with more practice.

Derity
02-13-2017, 08:07 AM
Another 'can't work out a counter, so nerf it' thread. GG

Assassins rely on dashing for their defence as they have low HP and inferior blocking. You'll work out how to fight them with more practice.

I'm aware of counters, my problem is that dashing is simply absurd in this game due to the lack of a stamina cost.

Especially when a player is out of stamina - dash back, dash back.

PS. I'm very good at For Honor. Just because my opinion doesn't match yours doesn't mean I need practice, maybe I just view the game from higher tier play than you or most others on this forum. :cool:

Vikko2
02-13-2017, 08:37 AM
You know, guard breaking is kind of... designed to shut down dashing left and right.

If they dash backwards and stay there, that just means you're back in neutral, by fighting game terminology.

Bob__Gnarly
02-13-2017, 08:51 AM
I'm aware of counters, my problem is that dashing is simply absurd in this game due to the lack of a stamina cost.

Especially when a player is out of stamina - dash back, dash back.

PS. I'm very good at For Honor. Just because my opinion doesn't match yours doesn't mean I need practice, maybe I just view the game from higher tier play than you or most others on this forum. :cool:

Not trying to offend, we're all mostly noobs here, including myself.

I mained the zerker all beta and I can tell you that if you add stam cost to dashing, you'd just make an already weak dueling class, weaker. From the zerker point of view, it's side dash attack is easily blocked and dashing can also be interrupted by GB. Given we already have to use timed blocks, we rely on dashing more than other classes.

madstoog
02-13-2017, 09:09 AM
have you even played an assasin op?

davedxd
02-13-2017, 09:30 AM
Damn, at this point it has become clear that the OP is a terrible player..

sesshomaru331
02-13-2017, 09:38 AM
I havenīt faced those dashattacks very often yet

B3N--
02-13-2017, 10:10 AM
That obscur technic have got me a lot of problem (side dash + light attack with an assasin class (orochi and berzerker)) when using a kensei or this kind of char, you can't almost do anything apart disengage the fight.

B3N--
02-13-2017, 10:16 AM
Guardbreak > dash


Now explain how you GB someone who is playing an assasin class using side dash + light attack forever?

with a tank ok, full guard mode can break the infernal spinning but with kensei/warden/raider, you can't or the time you will, you have take 3/4 spinning combo in your face and your life is very low :)

Derity
02-13-2017, 11:35 AM
have you even played an assasin op?

Yes, Berserker was my main in Alpha 1, and I've played Orochi up to Renown 1 and PK to around level 10 (funny enough I reck people with PK more than the others, but PK balance is a whole 'nother story)

Derity
02-13-2017, 11:36 AM
So basically you want my main mechanic to penalize me when used? Yeah gtfo here bro, hit the lab and learn to counter it.

A little yes. Like every other action in the entire game.

SethUnleashed
02-13-2017, 11:44 AM
A little yes. Like every other action in the entire game.

dodges can cost stamina, when blocks do as well ... **** turtle players

Aarpian2
02-13-2017, 11:48 AM
I'm aware of counters, my problem is that dashing is simply absurd in this game due to the lack of a stamina cost.

Especially when a player is out of stamina - dash back, dash back.

PS. I'm very good at For Honor. Just because my opinion doesn't match yours doesn't mean I need practice, maybe I just view the game from higher tier play than you or most others on this forum. :cool:

So Mr. Pro 1337, knower of all things and champion of balance, answer this:

If you run out of stamina and I'm playing the conqueror (or warlord, or warden) - how do you stop me spamming shield bash into light attack if you can't dodge? I obviously don't need to tell you this because you're very good at For Honor, but the shield bash (or headbutt, or shoulder charge) drains more of your stamina than mine, and allows me to permanently keep you out of stamina if you don't dodge it...

But I'm sure you have a high-level pro tactic to deal with that...

Derity
02-13-2017, 12:16 PM
So Mr. Pro 1337, knower of all things and champion of balance, answer this:

If you run out of stamina and I'm playing the conqueror (or warlord, or warden) - how do you stop me spamming shield bash into light attack if you can't dodge? I obviously don't need to tell you this because you're very good at For Honor, but the shield bash (or headbutt, or shoulder charge) drains more of your stamina than mine, and allows me to permanently keep you out of stamina if you don't dodge it...

But I'm sure you have a high-level pro tactic to deal with that...

I didn't say that you shouldn't be able to dash when out of stamina.

So to answer your question; you dash.

Aarpian2
02-13-2017, 12:26 PM
I didn't say that you shouldn't be able to dash when out of stamina.

So to answer your question; you dash.

You don't seem to understand

You are out of stamina
From where comes this stamina you are using to dodge? I'll just be shield bashing you back to zero unless you put a completely trivial cost on it, in which case, you're back in exactly the same position as it having no cost

Aeecto
02-13-2017, 12:28 PM
If you're out of stamina you did something wrong.... but anyways, you can still dash when out of stamina, only downside is you can't spam it.

Dashing/dodging should cost stamina too like all other actions.
It's all about stamina managment ( should i attack or defend or regen some more stamina) except dashing, that's just spamming like a generic arcade fighting game.

Aarpian2
02-13-2017, 12:30 PM
If you're out of stamina you did something wrong.... but anyways, you can still dash when out of stamina, only downside is you can't spam it.

Dashing/dodging should cost stamina too like all other actions.
It's all about stamina managment ( should i attack or defend or regen some more stamina) except dashing, that's just spamming like a generic arcade fighting game.

So now I can keep you out of stamina without even having to hit you with the shield bash, just from you trying to avoid it?
Nice, sign me up.

Knight_Raime
02-13-2017, 12:53 PM
This is a L2P issue. not a game issue. dash attacks give you the added benefit of knowing the direction the attack will come from. Not to mention you can guard break people who dash.
Making dodges require stamina would basically kill the assassins. as their defense is inferior to all other heros. their block isn't always up. Not to mention feints exist in the game. and certain attacks WILL target and chase someone dashing. I did it all the time as my conq.

And honestly you just sound like the worst person. "I don't use someone I like because it goes against my own personal made up honor code." Please get over yourself. You won't ever enjoy for honor let alone any other pvp game to the fullest if you seriously expect randoms to adhere to your "code."

Derity
02-13-2017, 01:10 PM
This is a L2P issue. not a game issue. dash attacks give you the added benefit of knowing the direction the attack will come from. Not to mention you can guard break people who dash.
Making dodges require stamina would basically kill the assassins. as their defense is inferior to all other heros. their block isn't always up. Not to mention feints exist in the game. and certain attacks WILL target and chase someone dashing. I did it all the time as my conq.

And honestly you just sound like the worst person. "I don't use someone I like because it goes against my own personal made up honor code." Please get over yourself. You won't ever enjoy for honor let alone any other pvp game to the fullest if you seriously expect randoms to adhere to your "code."

Yeah, I'm a complete a-hole for choosing against using unbalanced characters. All of the Orochi's in Alpha 1, and the Valkyries in TT2 were valiant people.

Anyway, one quick question; So you believe it to be completely balanced that it is virtually impossible to punish any (good) assassin player when they completely consume all of their stamina?

Knight_Raime
02-13-2017, 01:37 PM
Yeah, I'm a complete a-hole for choosing against using unbalanced characters. All of the Orochi's in Alpha 1, and the Valkyries in TT2 were valiant people.

Anyway, one quick question; So you believe it to be completely balanced that it is virtually impossible to punish any (good) assassin player when they completely consume all of their stamina?

Way to pigeon hole your sloppy argument. Orochi was imbalanced in the alpha. he wasn't in either beta. They removed what made him a problem (being able to cancel storm rush at any time during the attack and increased his stamina consumption and decreased his attack.) I can't speak on the valk as I wasn't apart of that test. and since we haven't seen what she's like now assuming she's still a problem is stupid.

Your question is also stacked. because "good" in your sentence can mean any imaginary situation that would make your feeble point "valid."
If you lack the ability to punish an assassin out of stamina then it's clearly your fault. there are attacks and combos that will track and follow someone who dashes. and as it's already been said more than once you can guard break someone dashing.

and well. You called yourself an a-hole. not me so.
Won't reply to you any further until you actually give a reasonable argument, cut the hyperbolic stacked statments, and recognize that it's possible to punish dashes and dash attacks.

Derity
02-13-2017, 05:46 PM
Way to pigeon hole your sloppy argument. Orochi was imbalanced in the alpha. he wasn't in either beta. They removed what made him a problem (being able to cancel storm rush at any time during the attack and increased his stamina consumption and decreased his attack.) I can't speak on the valk as I wasn't apart of that test. and since we haven't seen what she's like now assuming she's still a problem is stupid.

Your question is also stacked. because "good" in your sentence can mean any imaginary situation that would make your feeble point "valid."
If you lack the ability to punish an assassin out of stamina then it's clearly your fault. there are attacks and combos that will track and follow someone who dashes. and as it's already been said more than once you can guard break someone dashing.

and well. You called yourself an a-hole. not me so.
Won't reply to you any further until you actually give a reasonable argument, cut the hyperbolic stacked statments, and recognize that it's possible to punish dashes and dash attacks.

I apologise if I offended you, it was not intended.

We all know that when Assassins are out of Stamina, that they can dash backwards and all around freely due to the speed and distance of their dashes and the fact that dashing in For Honor takes 0 Stamina. The dash mobility is extremely high on assassin classes compared to the other archetypes. Chasing down someone who is frantically dashing around is not so easy, your only option is to disengage and sprint towards them and attempt a Guardbreak, which is easily cancelled.

Compared to the other classes in the game, when out of Stamina, they do not have the option to create such distance from the opponent merely by dashing once or twice.

If you Guardbreak a Peacekeeper who is dashing backwards (Not sure about Orochi/Berserker- haven't tested yet), you will whiff the Guardbreak and they can Guardbreak you in return, you can do it right before they dash, but it is not react-able.

Dashing to avoid attacks is much easier than blocking attacks, not to mention Assassins now have 'Deflect' built into dashing and can dash faster in the Out of Stamina state than they can run.- all of this only add to my opinion to why I think dashing needs to have a cost.

On top of all this, in my opinion, classes in games should be balanced around multiple levels of play. My friends are not so great at For Honor, and when I played with them they all had problems with the same classes as each other - the Assassin classes. And in my opinion 0 Stamina dashing is a huge reason for this as they simply cannot keep up with the flow of those characters.

I am not asking for dashing to take huge chunks of Stamina on use, but what I would like to see is that small amounts of Stamina, are taken from dashing. This way spamming dashes outside of range waiting to react is less effective and spamming dash when out of stamina slightly increases the length of time it takes to recover to give the opponent a greater chance of punishing the player who exhausted their stamina pool.

Also, please do keep in mind that my suggestion of implementing Stamina usage on dash does not exclusively effect Assassins, it would affect all classes, however it would have a more potent effect on Assassins as they are the classes that are most effective at dash abuse.

Knight_Raime
02-13-2017, 07:01 PM
I apologise if I offended you, it was not intended.

We all know that when Assassins are out of Stamina, that they can dash backwards and all around freely due to the speed and distance of their dashes and the fact that dashing in For Honor takes 0 Stamina. The dash mobility is extremely high on assassin classes compared to the other archetypes. Chasing down someone who is frantically dashing around is not so easy, your only option is to disengage and sprint towards them and attempt a Guardbreak, which is easily cancelled.

Compared to the other classes in the game, when out of Stamina, they do not have the option to create such distance from the opponent merely by dashing once or twice.

If you Guardbreak a Peacekeeper who is dashing backwards (Not sure about Orochi/Berserker- haven't tested yet), you will whiff the Guardbreak and they can Guardbreak you in return, you can do it right before they dash, but it is not react-able.

Dashing to avoid attacks is much easier than blocking attacks, not to mention Assassins now have 'Deflect' built into dashing and can dash faster in the Out of Stamina state than they can run.- all of this only add to my opinion to why I think dashing needs to have a cost.

On top of all this, in my opinion, classes in games should be balanced around multiple levels of play. My friends are not so great at For Honor, and when I played with them they all had problems with the same classes as each other - the Assassin classes. And in my opinion 0 Stamina dashing is a huge reason for this as they simply cannot keep up with the flow of those characters.

I am not asking for dashing to take huge chunks of Stamina on use, but what I would like to see is that small amounts of Stamina, are taken from dashing. This way spamming dashes outside of range waiting to react is less effective and spamming dash when out of stamina slightly increases the length of time it takes to recover to give the opponent a greater chance of punishing the player who exhausted their stamina pool.

Also, please do keep in mind that my suggestion of implementing Stamina usage on dash does not exclusively effect Assassins, it would affect all classes, however it would have a more potent effect on Assassins as they are the classes that are most effective at dash abuse.

While other classes don't have the mobility or dash distance of assassins they DO have the ability to keep their guard up constantly. Assassins don't. so this nerf would hurt them more than other classes. which is a problem. Back dashes are much harder to GB yes. But side dashes are easily GBed.

The closest i'd be willing to go is to allow dashing to be "less effective" when out of stamina. But not out right removing them.

Derity
02-13-2017, 08:07 PM
While other classes don't have the mobility or dash distance of assassins they DO have the ability to keep their guard up constantly. Assassins don't. so this nerf would hurt them more than other classes. which is a problem. Back dashes are much harder to GB yes. But side dashes are easily GBed.

The closest i'd be willing to go is to allow dashing to be "less effective" when out of stamina. But not out right removing them.

I think you got me wrong, I never said that running out of stamina should make you not be able to dash, you should absolutely still be able to dash, but basically the idea is that it takes stamina, so when you dash when you're out of stamina it essentially just delays how long it will take to recover your stamina, similar to how attacking works when you're out of stamina, you can still attack (albeit slowly) but you're also delaying how long it will take to recover.

Knight_Raime
02-14-2017, 05:35 AM
I think you got me wrong, I never said that running out of stamina should make you not be able to dash, you should absolutely still be able to dash, but basically the idea is that it takes stamina, so when you dash when you're out of stamina it essentially just delays how long it will take to recover your stamina, similar to how attacking works when you're out of stamina, you can still attack (albeit slowly) but you're also delaying how long it will take to recover.

I guess I misunderstood your post then. I don't agree with that change. When I said dashing would be less effective out of stamina I meant fewer (if any I frames) on the dashes and less dash distance. That way someone who is superb at timing can still dodge to avoid as an assassin but players now who spam it won't be able to.

My problem with your preposed solution is it'll heavily tilt the fight one of two ways. Either the assassin is good enough to continually dodge. But because it would take the assassin forever to get stamina back you drag out the fight longer than it needs to be.

OR the assassin isn't good enough at dodging and any attempt will lengthen the match. Not to mention the opponent will pick up on the persons poor dodging and steam roll them.

It is true that a good player will be harder to counter when they dash around. But you have to keep in mind that a majority of players are not that good. and in top level play (from what i've seen) they don't spam dashes because there isn't a need. the opponent reacts to moves they make and stays defensive most of the time.

Delectable_Sin
02-14-2017, 05:49 AM
Um, if someone dashes into the wrong direction, they take the full attack. So if you would actually feint, you'd render random dashes not only worthless, but actually detrimental to the person performing them.

Seriously, try learning the game before you go and complain about it. If someone is able to randomly dodge all of your stuff, you're most likely just spamming downward power attacks.