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MAstaKFC
03-25-2004, 10:32 PM
Hello guys. The first thing I wanted to say is that FB and AEP is an excellent game!!! This is the first flight sim I've ever bought, and it's opened up a new world to me. Originally tried playing it with Keyboard, but realised I either sucked badly or there was something wrong with my setup. Am currently using a friends old Thrustmaster X-Fighter, but saving up for a Saitek X-45.

Anyways, I've been lurking around these forums for a while and have been eager to ask some questions. What does BnZ stand for? Whats TnB? Whats the basic way to do either? What are the recommended planes to do them?
I seem to do okay in a dogfight against some planes (Bf-109) yet get completely licked by other types, like the Zero. Is it the way the AI flies the planes? Am i doing something wrong?
Thank guys!

On a side note, I heard mudmovers was a really good site, seems to be down =(

MAstaKFC
03-25-2004, 10:32 PM
Hello guys. The first thing I wanted to say is that FB and AEP is an excellent game!!! This is the first flight sim I've ever bought, and it's opened up a new world to me. Originally tried playing it with Keyboard, but realised I either sucked badly or there was something wrong with my setup. Am currently using a friends old Thrustmaster X-Fighter, but saving up for a Saitek X-45.

Anyways, I've been lurking around these forums for a while and have been eager to ask some questions. What does BnZ stand for? Whats TnB? Whats the basic way to do either? What are the recommended planes to do them?
I seem to do okay in a dogfight against some planes (Bf-109) yet get completely licked by other types, like the Zero. Is it the way the AI flies the planes? Am i doing something wrong?
Thank guys!

On a side note, I heard mudmovers was a really good site, seems to be down =(

Bluedog72
03-26-2004, 01:15 AM
Wellcome to the wonderfull world of flight simming http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BnZ= Boom n' Zoom ....high speed attacks, often from an altitude advantage, keeping a relatively straight flightpath, maintaining a high energy state, and using that high energy to regain altitude after an attack run, to set yourself up in a position to repeat the process.
FWs, P47s etc, the heavier, less nimble planes with good firepower excell at this form of fighting.

TnB= Turn n' Burn, as it sounds.....turning with your opponent, relying less on speed and more on sustained turn capabilities.
Spitfires, Hurricanes, any of the biplanes, both of the A6Ms etc excell at TnB style fights.

Please note that all of the types of aircraft I listed(and for that matter, all those I didn't) are perfectly capable of fighting either BnZ or TnB if handled correctly, it's just that some planes do some things better than others . That is, it wouldnt really be very wise to get in a low, slow, tight turning fight with an A6M in say a P47.

Likewise, said A6M would have a hard time with a P47 BnZing him from an altitude advantage.

To break it down to very simple terms, BnZ usually means fighting in the vertical plane, ie you go up and down.
TnB is usually fighting in the horizontal plane, ie you go around and around.

Hope that helps http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Blue

Cajun76
03-26-2004, 01:52 AM
Darn, I wish it (Mudmovers) was up, it's a very good resource.

For starters, welcome to IL2, and as Tsisqua says, "Welcome to the madness"

Both these terms and styles are limiting, but useful for learning. They lead to a better way.

TnB = Turn and Burn, it's slang for getting and staying in close during a fight. This is how many start out, and is probably how you're flying. Nothing wrong with it, though, despite what others say.

BnZ = Boom and Zoom, it's a technique, usually involving starting with an altitude advantage, that involves high speed passes on the target, extending, and reengaging or disengaging depending on the situation.

Both are a form of Energy fighting. Let's explore this concept, "Energy" The most important part of energy is speed. Speed is your most important asset, whether it's the optimum speed for turning, or for making a slashing pass attack. The object of the fight is to keep your energy, while making the enemy bleed his.

This is but a small explanation, as I don't have time to go in depth. Good planes....

Under the right circumstances, any plane can execute a "TnB" or "BnZ" attack, but under most conditions, these are suited to these "styles" Remember, don't get caught up in one or the other, both are appropriate in any plane, depending on the situation. Practice, as experience is the only way to get better.


Examples-

TnB:
Zero
La7
J8A
I-16
I-153
Yak
P-39
Ki-84

BnZ:
109
190
La7
Ki-84
P-51
P-47

These are only a few, and in the right situation, can be used for either. Experiment, practice, and have fun! Hope this helps, good luck and

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Bearcat99
03-26-2004, 05:47 AM
Go to the Sturmovik essentials thread at the top of the forum and check out Tailspin's Tales and Sim HQ...... explore those sites extensively and look fo air to air info... welcome aboard...

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

MAstaKFC
03-26-2004, 06:27 AM
Thanks heaps, guy! Much appreaciated.
I was watching some of the tracks and dogfights. It's awesome!. Maybe one day I'll be able to achieve that status.....

Just one more question. I feel that as a n00b flgiht simmer, I have absolutely zero awareness outside my front arc, even a C-47 could pounce on me....any hints/tips? I dont think i could afford track IR yet....

tsisqua
03-26-2004, 06:41 AM
When my friends get any version of IL2, I tell them to come here. Sometimes they listen, and sometimes they do not.

You are in the right place, be sure. You will see discussions here that are like no other gaming forum's postings. These guys get very serious about their realism.

They are also the best bunch of people you will find on the internet. With all the disagreements, and arguments, we are much like siblings. Any help you need, you can always find here.

And, yes . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Welcome To The Madness

Tsisqua

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/tsisqua-nedChristie.jpg
Tsalagi Asgaya Galvladi

Breeze147
03-26-2004, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAstaKFC:
Thanks heaps, guy! Much appreaciated.
I was watching some of the tracks and dogfights. It's awesome!. Maybe one day I'll be able to achieve that status.....

Just one more question. I feel that as a n00b flgiht simmer, I have absolutely zero awareness outside my front arc, even a C-47 could pounce on me....any hints/tips? I dont think i could afford track IR yet....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm quite the NooB myself. Often the first indicator is the sight of tracers going past your cockpit. Then its time to do some serious defensive manuevers. Favorite for me is to turn and slam on the brakes, i.e. chop throttle and go full flaps and hopefully the sucker flies past you and you can (hopefully) turn the tables. For us NooBs, it's a good idea to F2 (External View) once in a while and look around. I have a hard time checking my six with the hat switch and I have yet to master the art of manipulating the mouse with my left hand. I think there is a program around that allows you to use the hat switch like a mouse. I haven't tried it yet. Maybe some of the veterans can help on that.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap16.jpg

Bobcat-1
03-26-2004, 08:20 AM
Welcome to FB MAstaKFC. I'm still a noob at this sim too and the hardest part for me is still my awareness of what's going on around me. I have an X45 setup like you said you were saving for. I mapped the No. 1 hat switch to work as a mouse (you need to use the software that comes with the stick for this). This works the best for me right now as I can't afford Track IR either. Be that as it may, I still stink at it online. Offine, the AI eventually becomes predictable, however, online is another story. I usually spend more time getting shot down than actually shooting, but this is all part of the fun and learning. Just keep practicing and you will see improvement in time, even if it's just a little.

S!
Bobcat

georgeo76
03-26-2004, 08:56 AM
The IL2 Users guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) is probably the best place to get started.

SimHQ articles (http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html) were a great help to me when I was starting.

There is also This (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend/FYL/FYLindex.htm) beginners guide to fighting online

Fiend's Wings (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

LilHorse
03-26-2004, 08:58 AM
Welcome. As far as SA (situational awareness) is concerned the advice here is the same as they gave pilots then. Keep your (virtual) head on a swivel. Be sure to be checking all around and regularly swing your tail about to get a better look at your six. Just always keep looking around.

And as you've read there's different ways this can be accomplished whether by mouse, hat switch, TIR. But I guess I'm in the minority here in that I use the number pad to look around. It gets to be second nature doing it this way after a while. It's the best method for me since I don't think my present rig could handle TIR.

My only other bit of advice would be to get rudder pedals. Once you do, I don't think you'd want to go back to twisty stick. Really helps for takeoff, co-ordinated flight, gunnery, manuvers and getting out of spins. Good luck.

ZG77_Lignite
03-26-2004, 09:57 AM
One other thing that I didn't see mentioned above: Experience counts for a LOT. It is quite amazing the similarity to real pilots of WWII, you will find as you get more combats under your belt, you become more comfortable. This is not the same as skill, you will aquire that also, but it is a different matter. As you become more comfortable in combat, everything comes easier (including gaining skills and tactics).

The morale of this story (and the hard part) is don't let yourself get discouraged early on. Practice not only adds skills to your repetoire, it gives incite into your opponents which is a large key to victory.

Enjoy the process, the real pilots couldn't, they only got 1 chance; we are very lucky. It is possible to immerse yourself in the real history of WWII and gain tremendous incite into the game, and vice versa.

El Turo
03-26-2004, 10:44 AM
Just as in real life...

Situational Awareness and Gunnery are the two most important attributes you can have as a fighter pilot.

Knowing all the fancy ACM and knife-fighting manuevers is well and good, but always remember this: If you're resorting to ACM and knife-fighting, you've already screwed up somewhere.

Ultimate Truths:

1) There is ALWAYS someone flying higher than you and in your rear quarter. Always.

2) Fly backwards. You should be looking everywhere but straight ahead 80-90% of your time in the air.

3) Don't fire until you are close. When you think you are close enough, get closer. When your heart is in your throat, you're almost close enough. If you are firing beyond 200m you're wasting ammo. Most experienced pilots obtain their kills at well under 200m.

4) If you aren't fighting, you had better be climbing. No exceptions. Period.

5) Speed is life and altitude is your life insurance. If you have neither speed nor altitude left to cash in, you are already dead whether you know it or not. Always have a backup plan.

6) Grab a wingman. Flying in pairs/groups will save you more times than I can possibly quantify. Two pairs of eyes is better than one, eight guns are better than four. So on and so forth. A simple "hey, want to wing up?" is often sufficient enough to get yourself a buddy.

7) Ask questions. There is no faster way to learn how to do something than to ask those who have been there and done that. (This thread is a great start!)



I have some material I can send you via PM or email if you like. It was originally written for a different simulation, but all the basics are universal. Let me know if you're interested and I can get you a copy.

Best,

~T.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

Flamin_Squirrel
03-26-2004, 11:07 AM
As Lignite says, experience counts for alot, especialy for things like learning situational awareness. You can practice gunnery, you cant practice SA, its just something that comes to you.

El Turo
03-26-2004, 11:25 AM
I would disagree with you on that point.

In my former virtual life as a flight instructor, one of the great little lessons we'd go through was on situational awareness.

Try it yourself!

Start a mission on the runway. Look over your left wing and lock the view in that direction. Now, take off, navigate to a waypoint and back again to your airfield and land without ever moving the view from straight left.

Even just taking off, circling the airfield twice and then landing is a bit difficult to manage but teaches you about maintaining situational awareness about objects, landmarks and other vehicles not in your direct line of sight.

Try it and see if you don't hone your SA a little bit now and then.

!S

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

Flamin_Squirrel
03-26-2004, 11:50 AM
Perhaps its not SA then... perhaps its that 6th sense you develop after a while that tells you where to look for the bad guys.

El Turo
03-26-2004, 12:58 PM
Yup, there is that too..

I think for me it's usually that "hmm.. I haven't been doing my rear-quarter scan for a little bit" feeling.. just as tracers start whizzing by me.

That's always a good wake up call that I'm getting lazy.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

El Turo
03-27-2004, 07:40 AM
Bumpage for the new fish.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

zyotich1
03-28-2004, 10:19 AM
I couldn't agree more. This forum is my startup page, the intelligence and humor found here always brightens me. It is a unique environment and I appreciate being allowed to partake.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
When my friends get any version of IL2, I tell them to come here. Sometimes they listen, and sometimes they do not.

You are in the right place, be sure. You will see discussions here that are like no other gaming forum's postings. These guys get very serious about their realism.

They are also the best bunch of people you will find on the internet. With all the disagreements, and arguments, we are much like siblings. Any help you need, you can always find here.

And, yes . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Welcome To The Madness

Tsisqua

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/tsisqua-nedChristie.jpg
Tsalagi Asgaya Galvladi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

crazyivan1970
03-28-2004, 10:26 AM
Welcome aboard mate! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

horseback
03-28-2004, 01:21 PM
For Situational Awareness (SA) beyond the confines of your hatswitch (you DO have a POV hatswich, right?), I recommend assigning the various LOOK UP views in the Controls Menu to both the keypad (where 5+9 could mean Look Front Up Right, for instance), and to individual keys, particularly for the four corners(Back Up Left, Front Up Left, Front Up Right, and Back Up Right) on the keyboard. Being able to look up 45 degrees in those four directions is extremely useful in combat.

You can also reassign keyboard and Joystick button assignments in the Controls Menu to suit your own tastes. I, for example, never use the Padlock or Fly-By views, and reassigned the corresponding Function keys to more useful jobs.

For German fighters, you never use Weapon 3; change the joystick assignmnet to something you'll use, like CTL F1 (No Cockpit View), or Toggle Field of View.

Use your computer's word processor program to set up a list of commands and mark off the ones you don't need, and place the useful ones in an order you find workable. I keep separate Control Menus for Axis and Allied pilot careers; some functions/commands aren't useful for one side or the other, and that joystick button or keyboard assignment can be used for something else.

I maintain a chart file for each pilot career, and modify it and the corresponding Control Menu as my career requires. It works for me.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944