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GregoryMcFlint
02-12-2017, 06:44 PM
Delete or remove the hit-stun from Parry.

This move alone, along with the infinite combos that Conquerer, Warden, and Warlord have, make the game Blade Symphony 2.0. Haven't heard of Blade Symphony? There's a reason you haven't! :o

These factors alone make the most viable form of play hyper-passive only. I had my fair share of staring contests in which my opponent never attacked first and always tried to bait a parry in 1v1 to boot!

Also, to mention the obvious here, the p2p makes reacting to this hyper-boring meta even more intolerable.

Long story short, this game is Blade Symphony, so go ahead and buy it from steam to get the same exact experience!

It's only $5!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brave_Thunder
02-12-2017, 06:58 PM
There is a simple tactic to destroy the hiper passive guys:faint.I was losing every time against conq/warden that just waited till I dashed in.Then i started to dash and faint my heavyes,they fail to parry,you can do a light/Gb them.Fainting is useless against aggressive opponents,bit it's perfect in those situations.

GregoryMcFlint
02-12-2017, 07:13 PM
There is a simple tactic to destroy the hiper passive guys:faint.I was losing every time against conq/warden that just waited till I dashed in.Then i started to dash and faint my heavyes,they fail to parry,you can do a light/Gb them.Fainting is useless against aggressive opponents,bit it's perfect in those situations.

Forgot to mention that the hyper-passive "top tier" meta players will watch you spam feint for days. Sorry, but feinting is void when it is 100% predictable.

Also, unpredictable feinting doesn't exist, so that counter-argument is also void.

Arnaldo27
02-12-2017, 07:31 PM
Let's stop this nonsense. I thought like you before but I was wrong. Look at this video:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121616748

This guy has won 176 of 177 duels and he is a pretty aggressive player. The only duel he has lost was versus a light attack spammer. Thanks of god Ubisoft ignored our suggestions because we don't have any idea about this game yet.

TouchFluffyTail
02-12-2017, 07:33 PM
Forgot to mention that the hyper-passive "top tier" meta players will watch you spam feint for days. Sorry, but feinting is void when it is 100% predictable.

Also, unpredictable feinting doesn't exist, so that counter-argument is also void.

You can feint all day and the other parry all day, the first one to make a mistake loss, yes its a huge problem becouse makes characters with stong ripostes better than the others and destroy any kind of offensive meta.

buffing feint could easy fix the parry problem being able to cancel attack about to activate the parry window but the super turtle meta will still remain becouse of the nature of the game.

one could make moves you cant parry or changing unblockeables to being able to be parried, that would be good step to destroy the turtle meta.


oh yead blade simphony died long ago becouse this issue and heavy unbalance.

GregoryMcFlint
02-12-2017, 07:39 PM
Let's stop this nonsense. I thought like you before but I was wrong. Look at this video:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121616748

This guy has won 176 of 177 duels and he is a pretty aggressive player. The only duel he has lost is versus a light attack spammer. Thanks of god Ubisoft ignored our suggestions because we don't have any idea about this game yet.

lul!

So this guy played every "top tier" player for all 177 matches?

Nice meme you got there! :rolleyes:


oh yea blade symphony died long ago because this issue and heavy unbalance.

IKR! Better call in Fartzy to fix gaem, followed by H2O and Gaydouré!

Better yet, I'll tell poopysoft to contact them to fix For Honor!

Arnaldo27
02-12-2017, 07:51 PM
lul!

So this guy played every "top tier" player for all 177 matches?

Nice meme you got there! :rolleyes:


!

No but he is probably much better than you and he is not complaining because defense is too strong. I haven't seen any good player complaining because defense is too strong.

TouchFluffyTail
02-12-2017, 07:52 PM
lul!

So this guy played every "top tier" player for all 177 matches?

Nice meme you got there! :rolleyes:



IKR! Better call in Fartzy to fix gaem, followed by H2O and Gaydouré!

Better yet, I'll tell poopysoft to contact them to fix For Honor!


gameplay and meta could be fixed in the longway im more worried they plan to release this game with crappy connection system and awful matchmaking.

really only custom game with friends its actually playable. random matchs its a gamble with those disconnects and random crashs.

Flatlander57
02-12-2017, 08:05 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

It is 100% true that "defensive" play is invincible.

If me and Eiffel simply perfect this, and go into the next tournement, we can literally ruin the tournament by making every game a Tie. So the tournament never moves forward. You are literally invincible in For Honor if you play correctly and don't attack. Attacking is risky, defending is 100% safe.
(https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322)

MidnightVanilla
02-12-2017, 08:05 PM
Let's stop this nonsense. I thought like you before but I was wrong. Look at this video:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121616748

This guy has won 176 of 177 duels and he is a pretty aggressive player. The only duel he has lost was versus a light attack spammer. Thanks of god Ubisoft ignored our suggestions because we don't have any idea about this game yet.

I just watched this video and this dude never fights anyone good, i searched the whole thing and never found him once fighting an assassin that knew what they were doing or did this dodge attack ****. So your point is invalid.

Arnaldo27
02-12-2017, 08:18 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

It is 100% true that "defensive" play is invincible.

If me and Eiffel simply perfect this, and go into the next tournement, we can literally ruin the tournament by making every game a Tie. So the tournament never moves forward. You are literally invincible in For Honor if you play correctly and don't attack. Attacking is risky, defending is 100% safe.
(https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322)

1- The Warden refused to attack. If he would have attacked his defense would be a lot worse.
2- Nerfing parry won't change anything about this.
3- How do you suggest to fix this "issue"?. I can't think anything without destroying the whole game and making assassin classes unstoppable.

Arnaldo27
02-12-2017, 08:23 PM
I just watched this video and this dude never fights anyone good, i searched the whole thing and never found him once fighting an assassin that knew what they were doing or did this dodge attack ****. So your point is invalid.

Yes, I suppose you are not in the leaderboards just because you have bad luck and only face skilled players.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong but I would like to see a top player complaining about defense is too strong. I can't find your names in the leaderboards:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1574548-LEADERBOARDS-Days-1-amp-2-All-Modes

ThePollie
02-12-2017, 08:48 PM
If your opponent is hyper-defensive, bait him with a feint and rapid misdirections. If you just go in handing him free parries, you deserve to die.

GregoryMcFlint
02-12-2017, 08:58 PM
If your opponent is hyper-defensive, bait him with a feint and rapid misdirections. If you just go in handing him free parries, you deserve to die.


Forgot to mention that the hyper-passive "top tier" meta players will watch you spam feint for days. Sorry, but feinting is void when it is 100% predictable.

Also, unpredictable feinting doesn't exist, so that counter-argument is also void.

Reading is hard!

Ryumanjisen
02-12-2017, 10:31 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

It is 100% true that "defensive" play is invincible.

If me and Eiffel simply perfect this, and go into the next tournement, we can literally ruin the tournament by making every game a Tie. So the tournament never moves forward. You are literally invincible in For Honor if you play correctly and don't attack. Attacking is risky, defending is 100% safe.
(https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322)

I'm starting to think this can be possible. I fought a guy with really godd reflexes and there was no way I could break his defense. As long as he ate a couple of parrys thanks to my feinst, he just stopped to parry ans resorted only to block and guard break.

I can think of only one solution: make the guard break impossible to counter on reaction, just like in any "classic" fighting game: yo can't tech a throw in Street Fighter on reaction, you have to commit to it.

Afius
02-12-2017, 10:46 PM
Guard breaking is an option for the never attacking people especially if you back them into a wall the wall stun will give some good damage.

Stankyfoot
02-12-2017, 10:47 PM
So, remove the reason to parry? If someone is trying to parry you, feint and then punish their parry attempt.

Ryumanjisen
02-12-2017, 10:48 PM
Guard breaking is an option for the never attacking people especially if you back them into a wall the wall stun will give some good damage.

Yeah, but a guy with enough reflexes can counter it on reaction. You try to attack me? I just block. You try to GB me? I just counter GB. And the duel ends on a tie.

Stankyfoot
02-12-2017, 10:57 PM
If theres one thing that will prevent this from becoming too much of an issue (besides feints and unblockables) is the fact that it requires someone to want to get very good at the game but have no intention of ever winning. Who really thinks like that?

Afius
02-12-2017, 10:57 PM
Yeah, but a guy with enough reflexes can counter it on reaction. You try to attack me? I just block. You try to GB me? I just counter GB. And the duel ends on a tie.
If he's gb on reaction you're not doing a good job on pressuring him or are being too predictable. Maybe a feint to guard break will be a good strategy. I haven't had a consistent problem with people countering my gb.

YOGZULA
02-12-2017, 11:00 PM
Parrying and deflecting are simply too rewarding. A good defense should be rewarded by not taking damage. Defense should not be rewarded by DEALING damage - especially not untechable damage. I'm 100% fine with the idea of a deflect or a parry spinning the momentum in favor of the defender, forcing the attacker into a defensive position. That's perfectly fine. The fact that parrying and deflecting are the only two untechable attacks in the game is really stupid, especially since they are both defensive options.

Ryumanjisen
02-12-2017, 11:04 PM
If he's gb on reaction you're not doing a good job on pressuring him or are being too predictable. Maybe a feint to guard break will be a good strategy. I haven't had a consistent problem with people countering my gb.

On the video flatlander posted, the Orochi tried absolutely everything to break the Warden's defense: feints into lights, feints into heavys, feints into gb, DOUBLE feints... nothing worked.

Of course you haven't had a consistent problem, as neither did I. The game is still young, we are developing our skills. But when the meta evolves, if the good players can defend against ANYTHING... we're going to have a problem.

GregoryMcFlint
02-12-2017, 11:20 PM
If theres one thing that will prevent this from becoming too much of an issue (besides feints and unblockables) is the fact that it requires someone to want to get very good at the game but have no intention of ever winning. Who really thinks like that?

Let me show you who thinks like that! http://steamcharts.com/app/225600

nSidezz
02-12-2017, 11:21 PM
Let's stop this nonsense. I thought like you before but I was wrong. Look at this video:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121616748

This guy has won 176 of 177 duels and he is a pretty aggressive player. The only duel he has lost was versus a light attack spammer. Thanks of god Ubisoft ignored our suggestions because we don't have any idea about this game yet.


That guy is not even playing against decent enemies nor is he super good, he has this winrate because he alt+f4's on a potential loss, nothing more nothing less.

Ryumanjisen
02-12-2017, 11:27 PM
If theres one thing that will prevent this from becoming too much of an issue (besides feints and unblockables) is the fact that it requires someone to want to get very good at the game but have no intention of ever winning. Who really thinks like that?

The question is very simple: any high level player in a competitive tournament.

Let's suppose you are on a grand final. On the very last round, where a pot of, say... 1000$ goes to the winner. Your rival lands a couple of combos, and you're on the verge of defeat. You know that, if you resort to a heavy defense style, you will not win, but will not lose either. And a tie will problably mean another chance to get that prize. What would you do?

Now. I know this is an EXTREME example, but any good player with a competitive mindset would do it even in casual matches. This hole in the game's balance can potentially destroy any hope for getting a competitive scene.

Jinresh
02-12-2017, 11:33 PM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

It is 100% true that "defensive" play is invincible.

If me and Eiffel simply perfect this, and go into the next tournement, we can literally ruin the tournament by making every game a Tie. So the tournament never moves forward. You are literally invincible in For Honor if you play correctly and don't attack. Attacking is risky, defending is 100% safe.
(https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322)

This is the best video demonstrating the problem the OP was referring to. Having watched it twice, there honestly isn't anything I can say that the Orochi could've done better or differently to actually win.

YOGZULA
02-12-2017, 11:38 PM
and the warden wasn't even parrying in that example. You could play that heavy defensive style of play and go for parries which are also completely safe. Even if you get baited, you feint your attack and go right back into the defensive.

Ryumanjisen
02-12-2017, 11:41 PM
and the warden wasn't even parrying in that example. You could play that heavy defensive style of play and go for parries which are also completely safe. Even if you get baited, you feint your attack and go right back into the defensive.

I don't think you can feint a heavy on reaction... but, then again, didn't think you could gb counter on reaction. If that's the case, the game seriously need some reworking on his defense mechanics.

YOGZULA
02-13-2017, 12:06 AM
you learn the timing to parry and go for it. if you're wrong and get baited into swinging, you mash E to feint. You can definitely parry and counter-guard break on reaction though

RazhemUplay
02-13-2017, 12:07 AM
I have to echo that defense is king. In the whole weekend I only faced 3 guys in duels capable of it and it wasn't perfect and they still weren't fully cagey, but they made all engagements almost be suicide, I did some feinting and got some results from that sometimes, but not always. Feinting into guardbreak means nothing since geardbreak always has the same timing to break, so someone who has that reaction to a T, will never really get guardblocked reliably outside of the parry guardblock or dodge guardblock.

Basically, the moment you know that you CANNOT land an attack against somebody that plays defensive and are forced to use feints to open him up, you are only really exposing yourself to getting parried and punished heavily. If your feint works you'll get a light in once in a while, if it fails, it gets blocked and if it gets parried, you take double the damage you would have made, which again goes back to attacking being more dangerous than defending after a certain point. This of course means nothing when people don't have perfect blocking instincts or where latency is crap and precision play goes out the window and spam changeups become king. But it definitely will be an issue the more people play and in such a short time, it's amazing to see people who already have a lot of the timings to a T.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 12:10 AM
you learn the timing to parry and go for it. if you're wrong and get baited into swinging, you mash E to feint. You can definitely parry and counter-guard break on reaction though

So, using fighting games terminology, you can basically "option select" a parry and a feint.

I feared as much. This game need some adjustments as soon as they can make a patch.

Egotistic_Ez
02-13-2017, 12:54 AM
So, using fighting games terminology, you can basically "option select" a parry and a feint.

Yes, yes you can. :(

nestharus
02-13-2017, 01:47 AM
You know how I negated it? I switched to Warden. Problem solved. Every match is now a guessing match, but that's better than a staring contest : D, even if I only have a 33% chance to win the guess against Orochi, Berserker, Kensei, and Peacekeeper.

Jinresh
02-13-2017, 02:30 AM
You know how I negated it? I switched to Warden. Problem solved. Every match is now a guessing match, but that's better than a staring contest : D, even if I only have a 33% chance to win the guess against Orochi, Berserker, Kensei, and Peacekeeper.

What does a Warden have to do defensive play?

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:36 AM
I assume you mean what does he have to beat defensice play. A real mix- up. Shoulder bash.

Shoulder bash, get free damage. They dodge it, cancel into guard break, get free damage. If they have a dodge attack, cancel, parry, get free damage.

Congrats folks, at high level play For Honor turns into straight up rock, paper, scissors. Ubisoft, fix your broken game.

Vakris_One
02-13-2017, 02:39 AM
Forgot to mention that the hyper-passive "top tier" meta players will watch you spam feint for days. Sorry, but feinting is void when it is 100% predictable.

Also, unpredictable feinting doesn't exist, so that counter-argument is also void.
These kind of statements lead me to believe you have little to no clue as to what you are talking about. Faking out someone who uses parries is 100% possible. If they don't get faked out then they are usually just prepared to block you, which means you go in for the guardbreak on them. You always have options for everything in this game's combat system.

Please learn the tactics and how/when to employ them before writing ill informed nonsense.

Vakris_One
02-13-2017, 02:44 AM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

It is 100% true that "defensive" play is invincible.

If me and Eiffel simply perfect this, and go into the next tournement, we can literally ruin the tournament by making every game a Tie. So the tournament never moves forward. You are literally invincible in For Honor if you play correctly and don't attack. Attacking is risky, defending is 100% safe.
(https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322)
Lol. False hyperbolic statements.

I would love to meet you in game and have you try to beat me only using defense.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 02:49 AM
These kind of statements lead me to believe you have little to no clue as to what you are talking about. Faking out someone who uses parries is 100% possible. If they don't get faked out then they are usually just prepared to block you, which means you go in for the guardbreak on them. You always have options for everything in this game's combat system.

Please learn the tactics and how/when to employ them before writing ill informed nonsense.

If you go for the guardbreak, they can react and counter it. If you go for a light or a heavy, they can react and block. If they doesn't parry, you can't bait it with a feint.

I'm curious. You've seen Flatlander's video: what will you do to break that Warden's defense?

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:53 AM
If you go for the guardbreak, they can react and counter it. If you go for a light or a heavy, they can react and block. If they doesn't parry, you can't bait it with a feint.

I'm curious. You've seen Flatlander's video: what will you do to break that Warden's defense?

Feint into an unreactable attack like Warden's zone attack. That will eventually(almost immediately) stop working. Then see my earlier post about the Warden's shoulder bash.

Jinresh
02-13-2017, 02:59 AM
Feint into an unreactable attack like Warden's zone attack. That will eventually(almost immediately) stop working. Then see my earlier post about the Warden's shoulder bash.

Except the video is an Orochi... without a shoulder bash.

Kroma-
02-13-2017, 03:01 AM
What about,

Parry light attack / zone attack = free GB ( since it is harder )
Parry heavy attack = stagger that can secure a free light attack only, almost like if you block a light
Increase dmg from blocked heavy ( like half a light attack dmg or more )

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 03:01 AM
Except the video is an Orochi... without a shoulder bash.

That's why most characters are worthless in this broken game.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 03:02 AM
Feint into an unreactable attack like Warden's zone attack. That will eventually(almost immediately) stop working. Then see my earlier post about the Warden's shoulder bash.

I saw it. And I'm not against a rock/paper/scissors game. Most fighting games are that: mind games.

My main gripe here is that not all the characters have the tool to get into that guessing game. Kensei, Peacekeeper (her lights can be blocked with enough reflexes), Nobushi (the kick can be easily dodged and, as far as I know, can't be canceled)... they can't force their way into a perfectly timed defense.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 03:09 AM
I saw it. And I'm not against a rock/paper/scissors game. Most fighting games are that: mind games.

My main gripe here is that not all the characters have the tool to get into that guessing game. Kensei, Peacekeeper (her lights can be blocked with enough reflexes), Nobushi (the kick can be easily dodged and, as far as I know, can't be canceled)... they can't force their way into a perfectly timed defense.

I think it's a problem that at the highest level, the game devolves into nothing but a rock, paper, scissors. Mind games are crucial to fighting games, but that's not the only thing they boil down to.

TouchFluffyTail
02-13-2017, 03:25 AM
The problem its you nerf the base parry/defelction removing the stun-effect guess what will happen ?

NOBODY will play other characters than warlord/orochi/zerker and peacemaker, becouse those characters have secure parry/deflections combos making the problem even worse.

the game needs to put some penalities like you get 1-hit the next one can only be blocked or dodged, that would fix some parry spam and reward to being more agressive but its just a idea.

feint could be faster and make it to be universal to every move (zerker need more useful and unique stuff anyway) so its not just "oh this guy will feint becouse its doing heavys"


im glad by the amount of attention this thread got becouse this a huge problem in this type of game: blade symphony, chilvary (no 360° spins exploits) and mount blade goes to my mind...

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 03:29 AM
I think it's a problem that at the highest level, the game devolves into nothing but a rock, paper, scissors. Mind games are crucial to fighting games, but that's not the only thing they boil down to.

Of course not. There are footsies, which one can argue it's also another kind of mind game. And there's execution, but at high level play practically all players have their moves perfected to the point. Sure, you see a dropped combo sometimes, but it's the exception, not the rule.

But some FG are almost purely mind games. Tekken, as far as I've experienced it (not my main game, but I've had my fair share of Tekken tournaments) is practically a speed up game of rock-paper-scissors. Some are not, however: take Marvel VS. Capcom 3, where execution is the main skill you need to play it.

But i digress: mind games are a fundamental part of fighting games. For Honor would benefit for implementing more those kind of mind games. And right now, with the state of the game and the focus on defense, it's practically impossible.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 03:41 AM
Footsies are absolutely mind games, but they're not rock, paper, scissors. They're not just simple 33% guesses that you need to make over and over. They're more complex because there are dozens of options that are viable. Fighting games also have many other skills than simply mind games and execution.

Risk taking, you've already made the read. You know he's what he's going to do. But do you block it and get decent punish, or take the risk and parry (In a game where parries are actually hard to pull of) and get big punish?

There's also the actual process of getting to the mind game, gathering data. Being perceptive of how your opponent plays so you can start getting in their head. That doesn't exist in For Honor because it's just R,P,S. It's just a random guess the first couple of times.

There's adaptability. Now that you're opponent is in your head, can you change up your strategy and shake him off? Can't really do that in R,P,S. You can just play a different thing.

Resource management with meter, of course. You have to think about whether it's worth spending your meter to do certain things or if you should hold on to it for a better time.

Mind games are fundamental, they're what truly separate good players from great ones. But they're not the only things fighting games are about.

Vakris_One
02-13-2017, 03:44 AM
If you go for the guardbreak, they can react and counter it. If you go for a light or a heavy, they can react and block. If they doesn't parry, you can't bait it with a feint.

I'm curious. You've seen Flatlander's video: what will you do to break that Warden's defense?
Took a look at the video. Eifel is very good, he's watching very closely which stance indicators come up on his screen and reacting quickly to them and is able to calmly time the guardbreak counters as well when they come. Very impressive focus of mind and reflexes. He makes it look easy but it's not.

The Orochi isn't actually helping himself by rapidly flicking in between stances. The Warden player is too experienced to get flummoxed by that - he's not really paying that much attention to the stance indicator on the Orochi's character because he knows the Orochi is trying to fake him out, like trying to hypnotise him and jumble his senses. Instead the Warden is paying the most attention to where a red indicator is going to show up on his screen and reacts immediately to that.

Instead you should make him pay more attention to your character's stance by slowing down and also alternating between fast flicking and slower more methodical stance changes. That way you're forcing him to concentrate a little more on you and a little less on waiting for the red indicators to pop up on his screen. The Orochi is also not using his side sweeps at all and is not mixing up his attacks much with light, heavy, dodge and dodge strikes. He mainly seems to be using his slower heavy attacks and feinting. You need to be more unpredictable than that to catch a player of Eifel's experience off-guard.

What I would do as an Orochi or Kensei:
Attack less. Or to be more precise I'd choose my moments more carefully. Try to build a false pattern for the Warden to predict and then switch it up and go nuts and then back again. The Warden is expecting me to go super aggressive and attack and feint constantly. I'd play more into the mind game aspect of the encounter. I'd dodge about a little, feint, back away, throw some light strikes, do some dodge strikes (not too worried about him blocking them unless he starts parrying). I'd stop attacking, come in really close to him and stop or circle for a while see if he tries a guardbreak.

I'd break target lock and walk around him, maybe even turn my back to him, all the while keeping my camera on him. If he takes the bait I punish with an immediate target lock and dodge strike. If he doesn't I pick a moment to spontaneously go aggressive, throw hits, feints, guardbreaks, then back off. Then come back in again and throw some light attacks, try a feint, do not try a full heavy hit, then back off. Then back in again but this time I don't attack at all. See if he reacts. Then continue to flip up my tactics.

Hopefully by now I've taught him that I don't use guardbreaks much or at all. Well, now would be the time to walk up to him without target lock, ever mindful that he could strike me or guardbreak me, and try a spontaneous lock and guardbreak instead of an attack.

TLDR: I'd try to acclimatise him to a false pattern instead of trying to blitz him as he is paying far too much attention to that tactic. I want to pressure him into making a mistake not by attacking/feinting relentlessy but by being conservative and choosing my moments. The goal would be to rattle him and try to make him second guess himself. If I can't achieve that then he deserves the win.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 03:55 AM
TLDR: I'd try to acclimatise him to a false pattern instead of trying to blitz him as he is paying far too much attention to that tactic. I want to pressure him into making a mistake not by attacking/feinting relentlessy but by being conservative and choosing my moments. The goal would be to rattle him and try to make him second guess himself. If I can't achieve that then he deserves the win.

You are correct, in fact that's what I'd do to: force your opponent to make false reads and punish him for hit.

But that's not possible in this game. because your opponent is not reading you, he's REACTING to you. Doesn't matter if you're predictable or not, since he's not predicting anything, he doesn't need to pay attention to your stance since he can switch his guard to block you. You can't play mind games if you can't trick your opponent. That's the problem in For Honor: you have enough time to react to anything. That's the point of the discussion here.

On one thing we agree, though: he didn't use his unblockable. But I suposse it's because that move always attack in the same side (right, if memory serves well). The Warden only need to keep his guard right and, as soon as they see an attack from other direction, adjust his guard.

In any case, thanks for the extensive answer.

Flatlander57
02-13-2017, 04:16 AM
You are correct, in fact that's what I'd do to: force your opponent to make false reads and punish him for hit.

But that's not possible in this game. because your opponent is not reading you, he's REACTING to you. Doesn't matter if you're predictable or not, since he's not predicting anything, he doesn't need to pay attention to your stance since he can switch his guard to block you. You can't play mind games if you can't trick your opponent. That's the problem in For Honor: you have enough time to react to anything. That's the point of the discussion here.

On one thing we agree, though: he didn't use his unblockable. But I suposse it's because that move always attack in the same side (right, if memory serves well). The Warden only need to keep his guard right and, as soon as they see an attack from other direction, adjust his guard.

In any case, thanks for the extensive answer.

I suppose when you say Unblockable you mean the quick zone-attack that Orochi has. I used it a few times, it landed once, but afterwards Eiffel started just resting his block on that side, and only moving it when I attacked other directions. I even attempted to Feint left and then use the zone-attack on the right and he still blocked it.

Since this game allows 100% reactions (like you said). There is no reason to try to "confuse" the enemy. If they remain calm and know how the game works, they can simply block and counter every offensive attempt in the game.

I am glad the video me and Eiffel made is helping the discussion, we really like this game but are very worried about it's future.

GregoryMcFlint
02-13-2017, 04:19 AM
Lol. False hyperbolic statements.

I would love to meet you in game and have you try to beat me only using defense.

He'd beat you silly. All he would do is watch you wind up a heavy into a feint. Reading the incoming feint is easier than reading Jick and Jane books.

In your own words:
Please learn the tactics and how/when to employ them before writing ill informed nonsense.

:rolleyes:

Vakris_One
02-13-2017, 04:23 AM
You are correct, in fact that's what I'd do to: force your opponent to make false reads and punish him for hit.

But that's not possible in this game. because your opponent is not reading you, he's REACTING to you. Doesn't matter if you're predictable or not, since he's not predicting anything, he doesn't need to pay attention to your stance since he can switch his guard to block you. You can't play mind games if you can't trick your opponent. That's the problem in For Honor: you have enough time to react to anything. That's the point of the discussion here.

On one thing we agree, though: he didn't use his unblockable. But I suposse it's because that move always attack in the same side (right, if memory serves well). The Warden only need to keep his guard right and, as soon as they see an attack from other direction, adjust his guard.

In any case, thanks for the extensive answer.
It's not possible to trick every opponent, that's true. That Warden for example has far too much presence of mind and experience to be tricked easily. But from my experiences at least, it's always a possibility to put some mental pressure on your opponent and make them sweat a little, which opens them up to second guessing themselves.

At the higher tier of players, i.e. the apex warriors, it switches from being a game about simply predicting and anticipating the opponents moves and into a more tactical battle of making the opponent defeat themselves. At that tier, they know your moves and you know theirs so it becomes a game of capitalising on mistakes and playing on your opponent's preoccupation with reacting and anticipating.

That's just my opinion in any case. It'll be interesting to see how the game developes over the months/years.

Eiffel_
02-13-2017, 04:25 AM
I just felt like saying a few things (I'm the Warden in the video Flatlander listed).

I love this game. I want nothing but the best for it because it's been a long time since a game had me hooked to play nonstop. The graphics, the sounds, the animations, the theme, everything is perfect. And for a long time, I thought the combat was perfect too.

I made a post on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/5tk7i8/so_can_we_discuss_the_balance_of_moves_in_this/

At first, I thought it would gain traction and hopefully alert the masses of this issue but I was just told I was either bad or not playing well enough. This seemed odd since I just considered myself to be pretty good considering I didn't have any issues beating anyone but people who abused the issue I mentioned.

Then I come on here and it seems you guys are a little more level-headed and experienced and it delighted me to see the top posts mentioning the issue I had come across.


With that said, I don't necessarily know how to fix it without actually seeing any of the solutions posted in a real world example. A lot of hypotheticals get thrown out and we can't know for sure how they would play out, or if they would have unintended consequences.

One thing I do want to say is that I think buffing offensive too much will lead to only Assassins being played, mainly because they have the quickest attacks and movements. If you buff offensive play too much, then it becomes a matter of "who swung first" that decides the victor. I think that's just as bad as the current issue of being unkillable if you practice a little more than I did (I was Rep 2 by the time beta ended).

Thanks for the comments saying I was just a really good player. But even if it is flattering, it's a little bittersweet considering I should not be "that good" at this game in just a short Beta window. I want to get demolished by fakes and mix-ups, but I also want to feel like I deserved to get punished for it and a better player could have avoided it or punished the player in response in another way.

Vakris_One
02-13-2017, 04:32 AM
He'd beat you silly. All he would do is watch you wind up a heavy into a feint. Reading the incoming feint is easier than reading Jick and Jane books.

In your own words:

:rolleyes:
Perhaps he would. There's only one way to ultimately answer that question though, anything else is just pointless chest thumping. Would be a fun fight in any case :)

And I've already learned the tactics (might wanna check my post), but thanks for checking ;)

Vakris_One
02-13-2017, 04:55 AM
I just felt like saying a few things (I'm the Warden in the video Flatlander listed).

I love this game. I want nothing but the best for it because it's been a long time since a game had me hooked to play nonstop. The graphics, the sounds, the animations, the theme, everything is perfect. And for a long time, I thought the combat was perfect too.

I made a post on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/5tk7i8/so_can_we_discuss_the_balance_of_moves_in_this/

At first, I thought it would gain traction and hopefully alert the masses of this issue but I was just told I was either bad or not playing well enough. This seemed odd since I just considered myself to be pretty good considering I didn't have any issues beating anyone but people who abused the issue I mentioned.

Then I come on here and it seems you guys are a little more level-headed and experienced and it delighted me to see the top posts mentioning the issue I had come across.


With that said, I don't necessarily know how to fix it without actually seeing any of the solutions posted in a real world example. A lot of hypotheticals get thrown out and we can't know for sure how they would play out, or if they would have unintended consequences.

One thing I do want to say is that I think buffing offensive too much will lead to only Assassins being played, mainly because they have the quickest attacks and movements. If you buff offensive play too much, then it becomes a matter of "who swung first" that decides the victor. I think that's just as bad as the current issue of being unkillable if you practice a little more than I did (I was Rep 2 by the time beta ended).

Thanks for the comments saying I was just a really good player. But even if it is flattering, it's a little bittersweet considering I should not be "that good" at this game in just a short Beta window. I want to get demolished by fakes and mix-ups, but I also want to feel like I deserved to get punished for it and a better player could have avoided it or punished the player in response in another way.
Perhaps give all characters a way to initiate an attack that has no stance indicator and shows no red incoming hit indicator? A stealth attack of sorts. But it has to drain almost all of your stamina to prevent spamming. Blocking it would have to depend mostly on luck - not ideal but worth a thought.

Alternatively give all characters an unblockable attack that drains all stamina. That one however can and will be used in 2v1s, 3v1s and 4v1s unfortunately.

Given the two choices I think the hidden stance attack might be worth a thought.

Flatlander57
02-13-2017, 05:02 AM
Perhaps give all characters a way to initiate an attack that has no stance indicator and shows no red incoming hit indicator? A stealth attack of sorts. But it has to drain almost all of your stamina to prevent spamming. Blocking it would have to depend mostly on luck - not ideal but worth a thought.

Alternatively give all characters an unblockable attack that drains all stamina. That one however can and will be used in 2v1s, 3v1s and 4v1s unfortunately.

Given the two choices I think the hidden stance attack might be worth a thought.

I honestly don't like these options.

The issue is in this game of Rock-Paper-Scissors, there is no Scissors.
Rock is Attack, Paper is Block, Scissors is Guard Break. Except Guard Break is neutralized anytime you use it, so it actually doesn't counter block.

If you are blocking, and they guard break, you counter it. It doesn't actually do anything, it is a useless button in high-level play that will only be used after a Parry.

Honestly, They should just tweak Guard-Break to be useful. Hell, even removing the ability to counter ALL Guard Breaks would help. (Of course, reduce the time you are stunned, and maybe make it so you could counter throws)
For example: If you could guard break, and get a free light attack (not heavy) it wouldn't be too powerful.
If you guard break, then try to throw. Then there should be the option to counter the throw.

This way, It is actually Rock, Paper, Scissors.
You can block attacks.
You can guard-break blocks.
You can attack guard-break

Of course also:
You can feint Parries,
You can dodge/parry unblockables.

Everything in the game, needs a hard-counter that will beat it.
Blocking currently has no counter.

martnRULES
02-13-2017, 05:05 AM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

It is 100% true that "defensive" play is invincible.

If me and Eiffel simply perfect this, and go into the next tournement, we can literally ruin the tournament by making every game a Tie. So the tournament never moves forward. You are literally invincible in For Honor if you play correctly and don't attack. Attacking is risky, defending is 100% safe.
(https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322)

This doesn't prove anything. This guy is trying to crack a defensive player with THE Defensive Assassin... Orochi has arguably the SLOWEST normals in the game. Orochi's kit is designed for Defense (e.g. Deflect unblockable, etc). You can see her normals coming from a mile away. So it's no wonder why this Ward is so easily able to react to normals and Raw Guard Breaks. I'd be impressed if this guy kept this up versus a Berserker, y,know, the class designed for the mix up offense this dude was trying to pull off with Orochi...

LightofBaldur
02-13-2017, 05:11 AM
Delete or remove the hit-stun from Parry.

This move alone, along with the infinite combos that Conquerer, Warden, and Warlord have, make the game Blade Symphony 2.0.


There are no infinite combos what game are you playing? The highest built in combo I've seen is two hits and I don't think any of the second hits are even 100% guaranteed. If you are getting hit by a ton of attacks chained together then you are getting out played plain and simple. Why would they remove the hit stun from a parry? That would make it the same thing as a block.

Eiffel_
02-13-2017, 05:12 AM
This doesn't prove anything. This guy is trying to crack a defensive player with THE Defensive Assassin... Orochi has arguably the SLOWEST normals in the game. Orochi's kit is designed for Defense (e.g. Deflect unblockable, etc). You can see her normals coming from a mile away. So it's no wonder why this Ward is so easily able to react to normals and Raw Guard Breaks. I'd be impressed if this guy kept this up versus a Berserker, y,know, the class designed for the mix up offense this dude was trying to pull off with Orochi...

I mean, you will just have to take my word for it but no class gave me an issue. Not the peacemaker, not the nobushi, not the berserker, none of them. All attacks are able to be reacted to. So what if they dash to the side and attack, I can parry them easier because their attack is locked in that direction. Have an unblockable? I dodge to the side or quickly hit you before the animation goes through (I tend to dodge just to be safe).

Nobushi's kick is dodgeable, the Berserker top swing is dodgeable, Warlord/Conq/Warden bashes are dodgeable.

But none of this matters because I can't prove it with a recording as the game is down.

martnRULES
02-13-2017, 05:24 AM
I mean, you will just have to take my word for it but no class gave me an issue. Not the peacemaker, not the nobushi, not the berserker, none of them. All attacks are able to be reacted to. So what if they dash to the side and attack, I can parry them easier because their attack is locked in that direction. Have an unblockable? I dodge to the side or quickly hit you before the animation goes through (I tend to dodge just to be safe).

Nobushi's kick is dodgeable, the Berserker top swing is dodgeable, Warlord/Conq/Warden bashes are dodgeable.

But none of this matters because I can't prove it with a recording as the game is down.
I typically play a very defensive/poke-y Kensei. Trust me when I tell you, an aggressive Beserker who has mastered their feint chains will tear your *** apart. Their Mix-ups become a guessing game if played correctly.

GregoryMcFlint
02-13-2017, 05:31 AM
There are no infinite combos what game are you playing? The highest built in combo I've seen is two hits and I don't think any of the second hits are even 100% guaranteed. If you are getting hit by a ton of attacks chained together then you are getting out played plain and simple. Why would they remove the hit stun from a parry? That would make it the same thing as a block.

There are infinite combos... have you ever been up against a wall when you dueled Conquerer, Warden, or Warlord? :o

Bob__Gnarly
02-13-2017, 05:31 AM
This doesn't prove anything. This guy is trying to crack a defensive player with THE Defensive Assassin... Orochi has arguably the SLOWEST normals in the game. Orochi's kit is designed for Defense (e.g. Deflect unblockable, etc). You can see her normals coming from a mile away. So it's no wonder why this Ward is so easily able to react to normals and Raw Guard Breaks. I'd be impressed if this guy kept this up versus a Berserker, y,know, the class designed for the mix up offense this dude was trying to pull off with Orochi...

As someone that mained the berserker for the open beta, I'd say the Warden in that vid would have an even easier time defending against a berserker. Most of their moves and combos are really predictable and their light attack is average at best. It also has terrible range.

GregoryMcFlint
02-13-2017, 05:33 AM
Perhaps he would. There's only one way to ultimately answer that question though, anything else is just pointless chest thumping. Would be a fun fight in any case :)

And I've already learned the tactics (might wanna check my post), but thanks for checking ;)

Nah, I'm going to take a cue from my fellow forum posters and just rise and repeat their reading "methods." :o

Also, learning the meta in this game is a pretty small feat. :rolleyes:

Raazeikel
02-13-2017, 05:34 AM
What if they simply removed the ability to counter the guard break using the guard break key? That would force defensively-minded folks to preempt guard breaks by going on the offensive.

I suggest this as I am horrible at countering with the guard break button anyways and so if I encounter someone using guard breaks extensively, I go on the offensive with light attacks.

This fix would seem to resolve the issue by forcing defensive players to become offensive as that is their only defense (save for distance) against guard breaks.

I mean, if you're mapping the combat of this game to rock, paper, scissors, then shouldn't attacking be the only counter to guard breaking? Since when did scissors beat scissors?

jxfaith
02-13-2017, 05:40 AM
What if they simply removed the ability to counter the guard break using the guard break key? That would force defensively-minded folks to preempt guard breaks by going on the offensive.

I suggest this as I am horrible at countering with the guard break button anyways and so if I encounter someone using guard breaks extensively, I go on the offensive with light attacks.

This fix would seem to resolve the issue by forcing defensive players to become offensive as that is their only defense (save for distance) against guard breaks.

I mean, if you're mapping the combat of this game to rock, paper, scissors, then shouldn't attacking be the only counter to guard breaking? Since when did scissors beat scissors?

This is actually a really good idea. Maybe permit a neutral outcome if you predict the other player's guard break and go for it at the same time. Right now, the game favors whoever guard breaks first if you both go for it at the same time.

SethUnleashed
02-13-2017, 05:55 AM
What if they simply removed the ability to counter the guard break using the guard break key? That would force defensively-minded folks to preempt guard breaks by going on the offensive.

I suggest this as I am horrible at countering with the guard break button anyways and so if I encounter someone using guard breaks extensively, I go on the offensive with light attacks.

This fix would seem to resolve the issue by forcing defensive players to become offensive as that is their only defense (save for distance) against guard breaks.

I mean, if you're mapping the combat of this game to rock, paper, scissors, then shouldn't attacking be the only counter to guard breaking? Since when did scissors beat scissors?

dont think that would be a good idea as it would end in one of two things:

A)
people will block/parry lights and go for uninterruptable guardbreaks... there would be a guardbreak-meta arising and it would be ugly

B)
everyone and their mom is going to play assassins to light-attack-spam, which already is boring and annoying as ****


the only classes which are a REAL problem while hyper-defensive are the heavies with a shield as their hyper-blocking makes it literally impossible to hit them with anything.
i've managed to break every other defensive playing class, but shield-classes are the pinnacle of "too much defense" or lets rather say "too easy defense"

SENATOR_007
02-13-2017, 05:56 AM
SORRY FOR BROKEN ENGLISH!

since not much of us can block like the guy in that video, so by now i m fine with the blocking system, and i personally love for honor's fighting style.

i m a fighting game fans, plays a lot of kof, sf, blazblue, doa, souledge, etc.

to me, in 1v1s, if u go full defensive, for honor is slightly easier to perfectly block everything then the other fighting games, because :

1. it has enough reaction time for u to block or counter guard break, when u get used to the system, feint wont do the trick.

2. most of the pokes are single hits, even if u hit a jab u cannot connect it into combos to punish ur opponent.

3. u cant do combo and give pressure to ur opponent,

4. i have not discovered any frame trap, yet.

in high lv of game play, i believe SOME talented gamer can perfectly block everything and tie every single game, it is talented but no fun.

I suggest adding a "blocking energy", it works like ur hp but it will only reduce when u successfully block an atk, when the blocking energy reach 0, ur guard will break

like in darksouls, and opponent can punish u.

maybe this help?

jxfaith
02-13-2017, 06:01 AM
dont think that would be a good idea as it would end in one of two things:

A)
people will block/parry lights and go for uninterruptable guardbreaks... there would be a guardbreak-meta arising and it would be ugly

B)
everyone and their mom is going to play assassins to light-attack-spam, which already is boring and annoying as ****


the only classes which are a REAL problem while hyper-defensive are the heavies with a shield as their hyper-blocking makes it literally impossible to hit them with anything.
i've managed to break every other defensive playing class, but shield-classes are the pinnacle of "too much defense" or lets rather say "too easy defense"

You could make it so that guard breaks fail to connect and stagger if the opponent is in any attack animation. I thought that was the current behavior, honestly, but maybe I'm wrong.

The concept behind his idea is solid, though. It certainly solves the "perfect defense" issue by making the only solution to guard breaks being to stop being fully defensive.

Ex__Machina
02-13-2017, 06:01 AM
Let's stop this nonsense. I thought like you before but I was wrong. Look at this video:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121616748

This guy has won 176 of 177 duels and he is a pretty aggressive player. The only duel he has lost was versus a light attack spammer. Thanks of god Ubisoft ignored our suggestions because we don't have any idea about this game yet.

i just watched this guy and he claims to haev 100% win rate but i saw him lose his 5thish fight against a zerker. the whole time claiming all the guy did was light attacks when in fact that's all he did. he also lost to a heavy attack lol

he's decent but not amazing or anything

Eiffel_
02-13-2017, 06:06 AM
i just watched this guy and he claims to haev 100% win rate but i saw him lose his 5thish fight against a zerker. the whole time claiming all the guy did was light attacks when in fact that's all he did. he also lost to a heavy attack lol

he's decent but not amazing or anything

He would also leave the game if he was going to lose. Apparently, this game doesn't count it as a loss (which I was surprised to find out).

Raazeikel
02-13-2017, 06:15 AM
dont think that would be a good idea as it would end in one of two things:

A)
people will block/parry lights and go for uninterruptable guardbreaks... there would be a guardbreak-meta arising and it would be ugly

B)
everyone and their mom is going to play assassins to light-attack-spam, which already is boring and annoying as ****


the only classes which are a REAL problem while hyper-defensive are the heavies with a shield as their hyper-blocking makes it literally impossible to hit them with anything.
i've managed to break every other defensive playing class, but shield-classes are the pinnacle of "too much defense" or lets rather say "too easy defense"

I agree with your points. Personally, I am fine with how the game is now as I've not run into anyone nearly as competent as the Warden in that video. I have found that most people are susceptible to mind-games and varying your tactics.

I'm sure there are the professionals out there who are capable of predicting everything perfectly, but the majority of players simply aren't that good: myself included.

Full disclosure: I played Conqueror almost exclusively in the open beta. I am far from perfect at defense and typically shunned playing defensively unless I had no other choice (low health/stamina, getting multi-teamed). I found being more aggressive was much more rewarding against the average player.

I'm not sure what the solution is, honestly. Just thought I'd throw an idea in the pool!


He would also leave the game if he was going to lose. Apparently, this game doesn't count it as a loss (which I was surprised to find out).

I read somewhere on the forum earlier that this behavior was going to change, making quits count as losses.

TTVPappusGaming
02-13-2017, 07:01 AM
Delete or remove the hit-stun from Parry.

This move alone, along with the infinite combos that Conquerer, Warden, and Warlord have, make the game Blade Symphony 2.0. Haven't heard of Blade Symphony? There's a reason you haven't! :o

These factors alone make the most viable form of play hyper-passive only. I had my fair share of staring contests in which my opponent never attacked first and always tried to bait a parry in 1v1 to boot!

Also, to mention the obvious here, the p2p makes reacting to this hyper-boring meta even more intolerable.

Long story short, this game is Blade Symphony, so go ahead and buy it from steam to get the same exact experience!

It's only $5!!!!!!!!!!!!

Feint into guardbreak if you know your opponent is looking to parry. He can't feint out of his parry attempt fast enough to tech the grab. TADA

GregoryMcFlint
02-13-2017, 07:03 AM
Feint into guardbreak if you know your opponent is looking to parry. He can't feint out of his parry attempt fast enough to tech the grab. TADA

Yeah! He can still tech it... :rolleyes:

TTVPappusGaming
02-13-2017, 07:09 AM
It heavily depends on the parry you are being baited with. Not all parry timings are equal and most heavies won't allow it simple as that.

I already do it plenty per day and as a raider I can't feint out fast enough out of my heavy for example. Some of my heavies have a parry window that is late. You won't feint out of your heavy fast enough either to prevent the grab.

Edit: checked the video some more and you are talking tons of yadda yadda. The warden is blocking and not parrying. Blocking an incoming attack doesn't make you unable to tech at any point.

Maybe you are missing the point about the difference of a parry vs blocking I don't know what to say here. I try to feint out of my parry heavies and it won't make it in time to guardbreak it is that simple and mind you unlike that warden I get grabbed legit once every ~3 full dominion matches.

Guardbreaks are only viable after a feint or as punish as far as it stands.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 07:10 AM
Feint into guardbreak if you know your opponent is looking to parry. He can't feint out of his parry attempt fast enough to tech the grab. TADA

Except now you're no longer playing a depthful fighting game. If you expect him to go for guard break, don't try to parry, then tech it. If you read he's not going to parry, then just go through with the attack and get blocked. If you expect him to go through with the attack, parry. You're now just playing rock, paper, scissors, but worse.

Flatlander57
02-13-2017, 07:52 AM
Except now you're no longer playing a depthful fighting game. If you expect him to go for guard break, don't try to parry, then tech it. If you read he's not going to parry, then just go through with the attack and get blocked. If you expect him to go through with the attack, parry. You're now just playing rock, paper, scissors, but worse.

Can you let me know what is wrong with Paper-Rock-Scissors gameplay?

For example: right now we have a 100% skill-based defensive gameplay.
As long as you never attack, or guard break yourself, you are 100% invincible to everything (as long as you have fast reaction times and hit the correct button).

But, if you attack in any way (light, heavy, zone, guard break) now you are being risky. This is no longer skill-based, it is chance. You are hoping, that your enemy misses the block/parry/counter.
If your enemy does not miss the button (block/parry/counter) then you are punished.

This means, currently, all offensive moves can be punished, and all defensive moves cannot be punished.

You can't be punished for blocking, you can't be punished for countering a guard-break. and since you can cancel your heavy attacks, if you miss a parry because they feinted, you could cancel it and block/parry the other direction.

This means, Defense is 100% skill, attack is 100% Luck.
If you are skilled, you have a perfect defense.
If you are skilled, you have an attack that is hard to punish, but it is still punishable.

Defense needs to be able to be punished. If you are defending, and you refuse to attack, there should be something I can do to punish you for it.

That to me, is the rock-paper-scissors of For Honor. Block beats Attack, Attack beats Guard Break, Guard Break should beat Block. But Guard Break beats nothing currently, it is just a tool you use after a parry to get extra damage.

Blankhere
02-13-2017, 07:58 AM
The stage of the game right now is, someone put these tutorials for all these neat combos you can do on each class but most of them are never viable or only viable in specific match ups. So what you have is a lot of people thinking a Dash/heavy is not a safe move so they never do it. Then they precede to go threw every combo to see whats unsafe and if it doesn't work on one class they stop doing it on all. In every 1v1 you have at least one move that is safe to just repeat on the offensive but they tried this move vs a different class and its not safe so they don't do it and fall into this never attack mentality.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 08:02 AM
Can you let me know what is wrong with Paper-Rock-Scissors gameplay?

For example: right now we have a 100% skill-based defensive gameplay.
As long as you never attack, or guard break yourself, you are 100% invincible to everything (as long as you have fast reaction times and hit the correct button).

But, if you attack in any way (light, heavy, zone, guard break) now you are being risky. This is no longer skill-based, it is chance. You are hoping, that your enemy misses the block/parry/counter.
If your enemy does not miss the button (block/parry/counter) then you are punished.

This means, currently, all offensive moves can be punished, and all defensive moves cannot be punished.

You can't be punished for blocking, you can't be punished for countering a guard-break. and since you can cancel your heavy attacks, if you miss a parry because they feinted, you could cancel it and block/parry the other direction.

This means, Defense is 100% skill, attack is 100% Luck.
If you are skilled, you have a perfect defense.
If you are skilled, you have an attack that is hard to punish, but it is still punishable.

Defense needs to be able to be punished. If you are defending, and you refuse to attack, there should be something I can do to punish you for it.

That to me, is the rock-paper-scissors of For Honor. Block beats Attack, Attack beats Guard Break, Guard Break should beat Block. But Guard Break beats nothing currently, it is just a tool you use after a parry to get extra damage.

There's nothing wrong with R,P,S. In fact, it is the foundation of every fighting game. The problem with this game is that the R,P,S foundation is broken. With a broken foundation, when you build on top of it, it results in nothing. Until you get to the very top, which is where the real R,P,S is. Not at the foundation, but at the top of the skill ceiling.

I'm with you that R,P,S is better than a literal staring contest. But R,P,S is what you start with when making a fighting game, and then you add depth on top of it. But there's no way to build on top of this R,P,S because it only exists at the highest skill level and nothing else will work. It results in something with no depth. The game is just fundamentally broken.

Raazeikel
02-13-2017, 08:04 AM
That to me, is the rock-paper-scissors of For Honor. Block beats Attack, Attack beats Guard Break, Guard Break should beat Block. But Guard Break beats nothing currently, it is just a tool you use after a parry to get extra damage.

I definitely agree with this, but I don't know how to properly achieve that. I had initially suggested removing the ability to counter the guard break using the guard break button, but (as others have pointed out) that could lead to a meta of constant guard breaks as the only other way to avoid a guard break is with an attack, which can be parried to provide the opening for a guard break to land anyways.

Flatlander57
02-13-2017, 08:19 AM
I definitely agree with this, but I don't know how to properly achieve that. I had initially suggested removing the ability to counter the guard break using the guard break button, but (as others have pointed out) that could lead to a meta of constant guard breaks as the only other way to avoid a guard break is with an attack, which can be parried to provide the opening for a guard break to land anyways.

You would just need to nerf guard-break.
For example:
If you made it so guard-break cannot be countered, you could slow it down, reduce the stun-time, and make it so you CAN counter the throw.

So if someone guard-breaks you, you cannot counter, but if they then press Guard-Break a 2nd time to throw you, you COULD counter so you are not thrown.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 08:25 AM
You would just need to nerf guard-break.
For example:
If you made it so guard-break cannot be countered, you could slow it down, reduce the stun-time, and make it so you CAN counter the throw.

So if someone guard-breaks you, you cannot counter, but if they then press Guard-Break a 2nd time to throw you, you COULD counter so you are not thrown.

That's actually a pretty good idea. But you would need to do something to stop someone from just spamming the button to stop from getting thrown. Like give them one chance to get out of the throw, if they miss it then the rest of their inputs do nothing. And either make the timing very tight, or offer some way to change the timing somewhat when you throw someone. Like hold the button for a delayed push.

Raazeikel
02-13-2017, 08:26 AM
You would just need to nerf guard-break.
For example:
If you made it so guard-break cannot be countered, you could slow it down, reduce the stun-time, and make it so you CAN counter the throw.

So if someone guard-breaks you, you cannot counter, but if they then press Guard-Break a 2nd time to throw you, you COULD counter so you are not thrown.

Well, you made that seem like an obvious solution. :)

I believe that you're onto something there. The throws are the most deadly thing about guard breaks.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 08:34 AM
The only thing about that idea that's problematic is that the only things that can counter guard break are light attacks, and certain zone attacks. Everything else will lose to it. That would make spamming it really prevalent. It needs more ways to avoid it. I would say they should fix how derpy it is when both players guard break at the same time, and make that consistently bounce both players off, and make backdashes immune to guard break. Not side dashes, then they would be too difficult to punish otherwise.

Arnaldo27
02-13-2017, 10:06 AM
I simply can't think how I could be able to win playing as Rider or any other slow class vs PK or Berserker if your suggestions would be applied. Maybe you are right guys and there is an issue with invencible defense but if something will be changed, I only hope that it won't make assesins OP. It would really destroy the game for me.

nestharus
02-13-2017, 10:24 AM
Just remove parries/deflects and problem solved? Nothing should guarantee damage.

Arnaldo27
02-13-2017, 10:35 AM
Just remove parries/deflects and problem solved? Nothing should guarantee damage.

This won't fix anything and it only would bring more issues.

nestharus
02-13-2017, 11:02 AM
You shouldn't have an "uber" block that takes more skill. Eventually, everyone will be able to do the uber block against everything, making the light block pointless. There should only be one type of block.

Fadango.
02-13-2017, 11:03 AM
What if you could feint a guard break? Feint just out of range and punish the whiffed counter, or feint it in range and use a light to counter their attempt? If the feint happens late into the animation you should still be able to punish with lights.

xSol Swifty 02
02-13-2017, 11:17 AM
and make backdashes immune to guard break

Just a thought without the knowledge to foresee if it would be a problem, but what about back heavies also being immune.
I think every character has a back heavy like Orochi just without the step forward at the end.
I think they would need to change the back heavy so it would hit, but only guard breaks? like the guard breaks range is so short it misses the back heavy, but any other attack would connect first before the back heavy comes out.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 11:26 AM
The problem with parries is not the guaranteed damage, it's that they're very easy and can be made relatively safe. I don't think there's a simple way to fix this game, one fix just moves the issue to another one of the game's many many problems.

Start with parry feinting. That needs to go. You should have to commit to your parry, and get punished if you get baited into it. I think this can be fixed by making brief period where after feinting you are unable to block, dodge, or counter guard break, but you can still attack. Make the window large enough that under all circumstances if you read your opponent's parry and feinted, you can punish him.

But Parries are still very easy to do. Meaning non-feintable attacks, lights, Raider unblockable, etc, are still worthless. So you also need to make the timing tighter so you can't so easily parry everything.

Now your opponent cannot defend against your attacks and turn them into damage against you, but they can still just defend against all of your attacks. It's still ridiculously hard just to hit a guy. Now this needs fixing.

So obviously the guard break needs to be buffed so it actually does what it's called. My thoughts are to make it unreactable, but make it less rewarding. Less stun time, meaning less damage since you probably won't be able to land hards. And Flatlander57's suggestion about making the throw counterable is just genius. One chance tight timing lets you escape from the throw after guard break.

But now that guard breaks are unreactable, they're going to get spammed. They are only beaten by lights, certain zone attacks, and a GB counter if you can read it in this new system. There need to be more counters to it so it doesn't have so much coverage against all the options. So I think backdashes should be immune to guard break.

Even with this however, it doesn't change that you still can't simply attack your enemy. You MUST do some kind of tricky maneuver. Basic combat remains irrelevant. So now that needs to be fixed. Honestly to me, the only fix I can see is that every character needs to be given unreactable attacks of some kind. Perhaps a basic quick attack that you can perform in any direction, incredibly short range, but has no combo potential or follow-ups except possibly character specific traits, but never with other quick attacks. And I'd also say they need to speed up all attacks in general so that you can't react to lights so reliably. Still doable, but tougher.

At the bear minimum I think stuff like this would at the very least end the dull stalemates and rock, paper, scissors at high level. But there's probably a bunch of other problems that would crop up that I couldn't imagine. And surely every character would need to be rebalanced. There are no quick fixes for this game.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 11:28 AM
Just a thought without the knowledge to foresee if it would be a problem, but what about back heavies also being immune.
I think every character has a back heavy like Orochi just without the step forward at the end.
I think they would need to change the back heavy so it would hit, but only guard breaks? like the guard breaks range is so short it misses the back heavy, but any other attack would connect first before the back heavy comes out.

I don't think that'd be a good idea because then you could do a backstepping hard as your parry, and that would option select against your opponent feinting into guard break.

guest-8Dpmf0BQ
02-13-2017, 11:45 AM
I wanted to come back on an argument of Flatlander :

Guardbreak doesn't work.

He is currently right. While it is an abusible move at lower tiers, it falls quickly in effectiveness at higher tier.

I am very experienced in both Street Fighter IV and V, and throw tech is a big mind game here, as SF is a king of guard game. The fact is 2D fightning game has more versatility in term of beating guard, with low hit and overhead on crouching guard, the whole thing being mixed-up trought unblockable, throw and untechable throw.

In For Honor, tech throwing is really weird, as you can land it as soon the red icons happens to show up, and it's even mashable. Yes, I found experienced player who never learn the proper timer to tech throw and find that mashing it will work.

I also get a lot of issue with tech throwing, as I were totally able to guess when my opponent was gonna to GB, and simple press too early the button, as it would work any other VS game : throw into throw just cancel the effect, as it is not that clear in For Honor.

I suggest to improve GB. Untech Throw is mandatory and should be a offensive move, not a defensive one. It shouldn't be accessible to every character still. The ability to Option Select Parry/Tech Throw should be impossible too.

The rest of the game is fine. If defensive players would be more afraid about GB, they will fear a lot more feint, and would be punished by mix-up.

Also, Tie shouldn't exist. Sudden Death would be more logical.

Fidel.Lagstro
02-13-2017, 11:47 AM
IMO, the change you would need to make to effectively turn the game from a predominantly skill-based defensive game into more of a skill-based offensive game is exchanging the parry mechanic for a chamber mechanic.

Instead of defensively parrying an attack, depleting your opponent's stamina, and opening him up for an un-counterable guard break shortly to turn into free damage (for simply trying to attack you to move the game along), just replace it with a chambering mechanic that allows you to initiate your own attack as your about to get hit (make the timing even smaller than parrying currently is) and give it basic block properties while also allowing it to continue it's usual attack animation. Kind of like what the Warlord can already do with his character specific light attack counters. It should be blockable, dodgeable/deflectable and re-chamberable by the person on the receiving end given they have the reflexes for it. Meaning that if both opponents have ample skill and reflexes, the two could potentially re-chamber each other in that direction for all eternity (or until they run out of stamina at least :P).

You'd also need to make it so that if someone does get chambered, they can't simply start spamming light attacks that would land before the chambered attack lands, meaning that if you do get chambered, then your only successful options should be to either block, deflect or re-chamber (you should still be able to launch an attack, but it should never be fast enough to actually land, resulting in you getting hit for trying to undermine the chamber). If you deflect or re-chamber it, you are back on the offensive and put the pressure back on your opponent immediately, and if you decide to block it, you simply block it as you normally would any attack and continue fighting as per usual.

Some attack speed re-balancing among the game's characters may be needed to make this work properly (like make peacekeepers light attacks a little slower and conquerors heavy attacks a little faster, etc). It's important that a chambered attack can't be out-sped by any other attack, the way you decide to make that work is up to you. You don't want the game to turn into a light attack spam festival either.

Chambers should be doable with both heavy AND light attacks on all characters. Imagine it. A Peacekeeper does her forward lunge move on you and instead of parrying it, you chamber it with a light overhead attack to catch her off guard and continue your chain on her if she does not react to it. If she does react to it however, she skillfully does it and doesn't get punished for initiating an engagement. You should also be able to feint right after a successful chamber as well. The second you chamber an attack (the act of blocking and immediately turning the block into an attack), you should be able to decide whether you want the attack to continue going through or feint it to start a more unexpected secondary attack.

I think this is the mechanical change you would really need to change this game from a predominantly defensive game into a more fluidly offensive one.

If there are any competitive M&B: Warband players out there, you should know what I am talking about. You want to reward smart offensive play, but you don't want to reward spamming fast attacks or playing overly defensive.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 12:07 PM
I really don't like the idea of a counter move being able to be countered back and forth over and over. Even if the timing is tight, that's so much work just for one attack if it keeps going back and forth. Then it's not really a game about offence, it's a game about timing. Instead of being unbeatable because of reflexes, you're now unbeatable because of timing. It's still forcing the game to revolve around a basic skill.

There's nothing wrong with free damage from parries. They just need to implement ways to discourage attempting a parry.

Timjan
02-13-2017, 12:15 PM
Havent tried the game but followed forums and watched quite alot.

Why not just implement a registration system, if it register you blocking, parrying more then 5, 10, 15 times in a row without an offensive move you loose the red marker for where attacks coming from until you made an offensive move.

So someone standing blocking, parrying, will not recieve the indicator after a short time, forcing them to perform atleast 1 offensive move, that CONNECTS, either is parried, blocked or hit, or they are themself hit and take damage, before the indicator is made available again.

Personally I think after 5 blocks or parries this should happen. Still possible to block or parry but they have to really watch the other characters moves.

Just an idea from someone never played the game or other fighting games.

Cant be too hard to implement.

Or/

Knight_Raime
02-13-2017, 12:19 PM
I'm deff not amazing at this game. and i'm not really versed in top tier fighting games in general. so bare with me. But I initially came across this by viewing parries as being too strong because it guarentes you a GB which just gives free damage. Anyway these would be my suggestions. someone who's super good at this game or fighting games can tell me how good/bad these suggestions might be:

~Make it so you can stop a throw by pressing the GB button if they attempt to throw you.

~Let GB's be stopped by fast attacks.

~let back dashes be immune to GB.

~or alternatively don't let the GB's be stopped by fast attacks. But they would be slower.

~fix what happens when both hit eachother with GB. it should bounce people off eachother instead of randomly giving one side the GB.

Those changes should allow GB to be counterable. and should deter from being able to do what people do now which is just react tech.

~feints happen faster.

~feints can be done on more things besides heavies for all heros.

~prevent the use of being able to feint immediately on a whiffed parry attempt. (not sure how to make this happen in game mechanically.)

~Feints cost less stamina.

This makes feinting less predictable, adds some commitment to parrying, and makes it a more available option. At best right now you can feint maybe 2-3 times. too little.

~Parrying someone has less stagger frames in general.

~the amount of stagger frames is dependent on the type of attack you parried. (ex a parrying a light would result in fewer stagger frames and parrying heavies/certain special attacks would grant more stagger frames.) Obviously this would have to be tweaked really precisely. But I think only a few attacks should be able to be parried and give the current amount of stagger frames. maybe parrying zone attacks or attacks that followed a feint.

~Parrying takes up slightly more stamina for the person parrying and the person being parried.

This should tone back how powerful/easy parrying can be. while still making it worth while. and also add a decision process instead of if can parry=parry like it is now.

here are some general things that I think might help the game combat.

~increase the speed of nearly all attacks in the game.

~tighten the window for GB's, parries, and deflects by some.

~repeated attacks of the same direction* should result in doing less damage or more stamina usage.

~Give everyone some kind of quick 1 hit basic attack that can't be seen via the indicator. can only be seen through the stance of the character. Move should be different for each warrior. it shouldn't be parryable or deflectable. But it would be slow enough to be able to reasonably react block to IF you recognize the stance of the character.

I think that is all of my ideas. Thanks in advance for anyone who gives feedback.

*= (not sure exactly how i'd do this. but if you are familiar with super smash bros you might understand what i'm getting at. They have a system where landing the same hit will weaken the damage and knock effect from the attack. I'm not sure how for honor would add this in. But I think it would be beneficial for the game to do so.)

shanbazall
02-13-2017, 12:21 PM
A couple of suggestions popped into mind. All numbers can be adjusted for balance. These ideas don't have to be exact and for sure they won't be balanced if they are all added to the game. Take it just as some food for thought.


- If you hold down guard break for X milliseconds, it becomes uncounterable in the traditional way. Your character then charges a short distance forward until it hits an enemy. You can cancel the charge mid animation. Obvious counter to this would be to side dodge or light attack.

- Give every character a second guard break that only works on an active guard ( top, left or right individually ) and can't be countered.

- Blocking only negates 90% of the damage you recieve

- Give us more unblockable (but dodgeable and parryable) moves.

- Make it so that when a heavy attack hits a guard (top, left or right individually), it drains a portion of the guard on that side, making the white disappear until it is all black. And when it is all black you can't guard from that side for a couple of seconds. dealing damage to an enemy replenishes your guard alittle.

- Make it so that guarding heavy attacks that hit a guard drains the defender's stamina. At zero stamina you start taking some damage trough even if you guard the hit

- Make it so that when the timer runs out the player with less hp percentage loses the game.

- Make it so that you can parry a parry resulting in neutral state for both players. This should be very rare and difficult to pull off.

- Make it so that you can dodge back if deflected resulting in neutral state for both players. This should be very rare and difficult to pull off.


I feel that some of these ideas encourage the use of parrying and dodging more which in turn encourages more feinting. From this we get to:

- every character should have a fast and reliable way to interrupt a side dodge.

- make dodging cost stamina.

/Brainstorm

Timjan
02-13-2017, 12:23 PM
Havent tried the game but followed forums and watched quite alot.

Why not just implement a registration system, if it register you blocking, parrying more then 5, 10, 15 times in a row without an offensive move you loose the red marker for where attacks coming from until you made an offensive move.

So someone standing blocking, parrying, will not recieve the indicator after a short time, forcing them to perform atleast 1 offensive move, that CONNECTS, either is parried, blocked or hit, or they are themself hit and take damage, before the indicator is made available again.

Personally I think after 5 blocks or parries this should happen. Still possible to block or parry but they have to really watch the other characters moves.

Just an idea from someone never played the game or other fighting games.

Cant be too hard to implement.

Or/

Another example would be that after you have blocked or parried 5 or 10 consecutive attacks you are unable to break guard break.

Stuff like this is simple to implement and wont cause any imbalances or meta changes.

It would punish defensive play, but reward the mix of defensive, offensive game play. Will become a larger mind game where you know your oppoent just blocked 4 attacks and after another block, parry they need to react or are in danger of a guardbreak.

Just trying to come up with ideas as I can definately see even mediocre players like me, going for heavy defensive playstyle and really waiting for perfect opportunity, making the game a little boring at mid, high level.

Timjan
02-13-2017, 12:36 PM
Sorry for the 3rd message from someone unexperienced and thinking completely out of the box.
You all have experience with fighting games but keep thinking within that narrow cirkle.

This is my solution and idea, how to implement it is up to Ubisoft;

1: After 5 consecutive blocks, parries you no longer see the indicator from what direction attacks are coming from

2: After 10 consecutive blocks, parries you are unable to counter guard break (this is to counter top level players able to block, parry based on pure experience)

In order to reset, you need to have an offensive move do damage, be parried or is blocked.
Being dodged does NOT count (would also be hard to register I think)

This makes dodging a more interesting mechanic to force opponents to recieve the penalties above, which means you must be offensive unless you want to recieve free damage, or loose the parry, block assistance thats built in.

Since some blocks dont require the indicator as far as I understand, making it 10 and then vulnerable to a guard break.

This is a small software, visual change apart from the guard break change which will require quite some work I believe.
But the parry indicator must go after a set amount (small amount) of parries and blocks,

Simple solution until others can be found, not sure another solution even is needed.

Thats it from me.

Peace

baxtyr
02-13-2017, 01:04 PM
So, remove the reason to parry? If someone is trying to parry you, feint and then punish their parry attempt.

Do that against anyone good any they will just react to your feint and feint their missed parry, this can often go back and forth until both players are nearly out of stamina from feinting. Parrying is silly and game breaking.

Kav0rk4
02-13-2017, 01:53 PM
Everyone is trying to think of these elaborate complicated fixes for defense being better than anything else, where as the solution is so incredibly simple.

This is something I just assumed happend all the time without ever checking actually, and I've played this game ~30 hours already.



Just make blocking take chip damage.


Easy.

Wrander
02-13-2017, 02:38 PM
Everyone is trying to think of these elaborate complicated fixes for defense being better than anything else, where as the solution is so incredibly simple.

This is something I just assumed happend all the time without ever checking actually, and I've played this game ~30 hours already.



Just make blocking take chip damage.


Easy.

I don't think this is enough. Some Classes can rely on dodging. Parry and dodging with assassins still gives guaranteed hits in defense. Beeing in the offensive should be rewarded not punished. Having the Momentum in a fight should lead to hits while the defensive player should try to get momentum back to start his own offensiv.

Some risky moves which atleast rely partially on prediction may still give free hits but it shouldn't be a 100% reaction based safe counter attack.

Kav0rk4
02-13-2017, 03:16 PM
I don't think this is enough. Some Classes can rely on dodging. Parry and dodging with assassins still gives guaranteed hits in defense. Beeing in the offensive should be rewarded not punished. Having the Momentum in a fight should lead to hits while the defensive player should try to get momentum back to start his own offensiv.

Some risky moves which atleast rely partially on prediction may still give free hits but it shouldn't be a 100% reaction based safe counter attack.


That's what feints are for.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 03:21 PM
Feints do not counter parries as they should. You can only feint a heavy attack at the beginning of the animation. You parry a heavy attack at the end of the animation. With enough experience, players can and already have perfected parrying at the last second, meaning feints will almost never work on them.

But even IF you fall for the feint, you can then cancel your own heavy attack that was supposed to be a parry!

A failed parry is just a heavy-attack that you can feint yourself and block whatever the enemy throws at you, because he has a slight delay on his attack-animation after feinting, but you dont have that delay for you defence. You can even feint your parry in time to counter a GB - consistently.

Kav0rk4
02-13-2017, 03:25 PM
, players can and already have perfected parrying at the last second, meaning feints will almost never work on them.

You can even feint your parry in time to counter a GB - consistently.


I'm pretty sure this is both untrue. Have tried both myself during the beta, and no.. Depends on the attack, but doing the right ones, you can't do that, no.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 03:34 PM
I'm pretty sure this is both untrue. Have tried both myself during the beta, and no.. Depends on the attack, but doing the right ones, you can't do that, no.

Sadly it is true, as many others have already confirmed in this thread and others.

khromtx
02-13-2017, 03:34 PM
I feel like the "turtle" meta / balanced fight is how the game is suppose to be played.

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 03:34 PM
The problem isn't that the "defense is too strong". The problem is the complete lack of 50/50s, which means that you can't mindgame a turtling player like in every other competitive fighting game. If you turtle (which is the optimal, lowest-risk fighting style - it's actually easy to prove in terms of game theory), the game turns into a series of QTE. There is literally no yomi involved.

A fighting game with no yomi and no possible mindgames is literally broken and doesn't allow for any serious competition.

Fortunately, the fighting system in general isn't at fault here. It's just a rather unfortunate combination o mistuned settings like chip damage, GB tech window and feint window producing a ridiculous outcome. Ubi simply has to adjust some of this stuff on release or on the first patch and FH is going to function properly.

I'm still fairly optimistic about this game and I firmly believe it's just a mishap that's going to be fixed thanks to the data from all the beta-testing that we've been through.

And really, people saying that "this is how it's supposed to be played" know nothing about proper fighting game design. You literally can't have a "game with no yomi", because without yomi there simply is no game. You can't outsmart your opponent when you can't play mindgames with him, you just have to solve a rather simple equation and then improve your skills until you're able to execute this solution.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 03:45 PM
The problem isn't that the "defense is too strong". The problem is the complete lack of 50/50s, which means that you can't mindgame a turtling player like in every other competitive fighting game. If you turtle (which is the optimal, lowest-risk fighting style - it's actually easy to prove in terms of game theory), the game turns into a series of QTE. There is literally no yomi involved.

A fighting game with no yomi and no possible mindgames is literally broken and doesn't allow for any serious competition.

Fortunately, the fighting system in general isn't at fault here. It's just a rather unfortunate combination o mistuned settings like chip damage, GB tech window and feint window producing a ridiculous outcome. Ubi simply has to adjust some of this stuff on release or on the first patch and FH is going to function properly.

I'm still fairly optimistic about this game and I firmly believe it's just a mishap that's going to be fixed thanks to the data from all the beta-testing that we've been through.

And really, people saying that "this is how it's supposed to be played" know nothing about proper fighting game design. You literally can't have a "game with no yomi", because without yomi there simply is no game. You can't outsmart your opponent when you can't play mindgames with him, you just have to solve a rather simple equation.



I agree with the last bit - this issue is easily fixable. A suggestions brought up in the reddit subforum was to swap the stamina-costs from offensive moves to defensive ones:

Blocking costs stamina, parrying costs stamina, counter-guardbreaking costs stamina, dodging costs stamina, sprinting costs stamina - and offense replenishes that stamina.

This will force defenders to eventually make an offensive move and open themselves up.

Furthermore it will fix the 2nd biggest issue I have with the game - being out of stamina is irrelevant because you can still perform all defensive actions just fine and just block everything or dodge away repeatedly.


It's just a matter of Ubisoft reacting to this quickly in one way or another, before twitchstreamers drop the game after playing their first turtle-matches and the game dying.

khromtx
02-13-2017, 03:46 PM
You are correct, in fact that's what I'd do to: force your opponent to make false reads and punish him for hit.

But that's not possible in this game. because your opponent is not reading you, he's REACTING to you. Doesn't matter if you're predictable or not, since he's not predicting anything, he doesn't need to pay attention to your stance since he can switch his guard to block you. You can't play mind games if you can't trick your opponent. That's the problem in For Honor: you have enough time to react to anything. That's the point of the discussion here.

On one thing we agree, though: he didn't use his unblockable. But I suposse it's because that move always attack in the same side (right, if memory serves well). The Warden only need to keep his guard right and, as soon as they see an attack from other direction, adjust his guard.

In any case, thanks for the extensive answer.

Reaction based fighting is better than mind games. If this game devolves into a fighting game, it will quickly turn into a spam fest of only one or two move sets. I've already seen it with warden.

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 03:54 PM
I think Ubisoft simply failed to appreciate how good dedicated fighting game players are. They're new to this genre, so this isn't even surprising.

They probably thought that no human would be able to tech every GB and react to every feint. They also thought that feinting was too strong, so they reduced the timing window on cancels.
I'm pretty sure they firmly believed that they were creating a system with proper 50/50s with their feints and GBs (and the general design is pretty amazing), but they simply mistuned it all and created a series of "false 50/50s" that can be countered on reaction.

They just have to adjust those settings to force the defender to commit to an option. If he guesses right, he gets a parry into an untechable punish, if he guesses wrong he gets blown up. That's it.


Reaction based fighting is better than mind games. If this game devolves into a fighting game, it will quickly turn into a spam fest of only one or two move sets. I've already seen it with warden.

There is no such thing as purely "reaction based fighting". If you do everything on reaction, then there is no game, because every encounter has a pre-determined solution that you just have to learn to execute. Players who want to win have no options to choose from and either nothing ever happens or one side wins by default.

Either way, you shouldn't be taking part in this discussion if you only care about casual play - and adjusting feints and GB tech windows won't impact casual play at all. You're still going to destroy spammers with proper defense, you still won't be able to tech GBs like a pro. At this point you're just completely misguided and you're actually fighting to make this game fail on competitive level.

Let me rephrase this: Ubisoft doesn't have to change the fundamentals of the game to fix this issue. The changes required are in fact so minor that their impact on low-level and even intermediate play is guaranteed to be negligible. People should stop acting as if players that push for healthy adjustments want to destroy their little turtle games, because it simply isn't going to happen - beginner players don't feint or try to force 50/50s anyway, so this literally doesn't concern them.

SpazzMaticuz
02-13-2017, 04:16 PM
Let's stop this nonsense. I thought like you before but I was wrong. Look at this video:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121616748

This guy has won 176 of 177 duels and he is a pretty aggressive player. The only duel he has lost was versus a light attack spammer. Thanks of god Ubisoft ignored our suggestions because we don't have any idea about this game yet.

You're a nonsense, stopped watching the video after he got lvl 1 and then lvl 6 warden as his high level enemies.

Peligrad
02-13-2017, 04:30 PM
This thread is silly.

First off, you can't balance a game completely around duels. There are 2v2 and 4v4 multiplayer formats that pay big dividends if you are successfully aggressive.

Secondly, I played the aggressor all open beta long. I had a 95%+ win rate in "duel modes" and won 100% of my "1v1 duels".

So don't tell me you can't play the aggressor. That's bogus. Wrong. Stupid.

Also, there are ZERO unavoidable infinite combos in the game outside of revenge mode. ZERO.

So learn how they work and how to avoid them. Problem solved.

And don't tell me, "You didn't play skill players, blah blah blah" I made it to prestige 3. Yeah I faced some bads. I also faced streamers.

I met 2 players who took me to school the entire beta. Those 2 players were able to apply more pressure to me than I could handle. THEY WERE AGGRESSIVE THAT'S HOW THEY WON. It had nothing to do with them using OP defensive mechanics or whatever the hell you noobs are trying to claim.

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk244/redvsblue_2008/16711774_10100623122688997_9084857036346616565_n_z pshh49jhka.jpg

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 04:38 PM
This thread is silly.

First off, you can't balance a game completely around duels. There are 2v2 and 4v4 multiplayer formats that pay big dividends if you are successfully aggressive.

Secondly, I played the aggressor all open beta long. I had a 95%+ win rate in "duel modes" and won 100% of my "1v1 duels".

So don't tell me you can't play the aggressor. That's bogus. Wrong. Stupid.

Also, there are ZERO unavoidable infinite combos in the game outside of revenge mode. ZERO.

So learn how they work and how to avoid them. Problem solved.



Literally not an argument. You're using anecdotal evidence and giving us your match history when 99,9% of people can't even play the game properly.

But hey, you seem to be doing well, so you're the right person to ask: please provide us with an example of a real 50/50 that can't be countered on reaction. You've been "playing the aggressor", so this surely won't be a problem, right? :D

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 04:44 PM
This thread is silly.

First off, you can't balance a game completely around duels. There are 2v2 and 4v4 multiplayer formats that pay big dividends if you are successfully aggressive.

Secondly, I played the aggressor all open beta long. I had a 95%+ win rate in "duel modes" and won 100% of my "1v1 duels".

So don't tell me you can't play the aggressor. That's bogus. Wrong. Stupid.

Also, there are ZERO unavoidable infinite combos in the game outside of revenge mode. ZERO.

So learn how they work and how to avoid them. Problem solved.




The core mechanic of this game are 1v1 duels and that is what most people enjoy it for - you can see it in the outrage whenever somebody "breaks the code" and tries to play 2v2 as a 2v1. If those 1v1s are severely unbalanced, it will make the game unenjoyable.

As for your success with an aggressive playstyle:

You can play the aggressor and maintain a high winrate, depending on who you play against.
But: You will lose to an equally skilled player playing defensively.

The only 100% untechable, reliable way to deal damage in this game is via parry into GB. There is no effective way to play around a parry as feints are too easily read and a failed parry can be feinted by the person parrying before it gets counterparried. You can also block a GB in time after feinting your failed parry.

Every attack in the game is slow enough to be blocked or parried on reaction and every faint in the game can be recognized as such.

Even if your opponent falls for 10% of your feints, you eat a parry into GB 90% of the time, leading to you losing every time.



Anecdotal evidence of one playstyle working for one player without knowing whom he played against is quite meaningless.

YOGZULA
02-13-2017, 04:59 PM
win rate means absolutely nothing for two reasons

1) you can alt f4 out of the game and not receive a loss. i've had people do this against me and then they probably walk around swining their big fake **** about talking about how they're 95% win rate

2) you can leave against people who are beating you and farm people that you're beating. getting schooled? then stay and figure out how to win. it's going to hurt your win ratio, but it's going to make you better. a lot of players don't do this.

Kav0rk4
02-13-2017, 05:01 PM
Literally not an argument. You're using anecdotal evidence and giving us your match history when 99,9% of people can't even play the game properly.

But hey, you seem to be doing well, so you're the right person to ask: please provide us with an example of a real 50/50 that can't be countered on reaction. You've been "playing the aggressor", so this surely won't be a problem, right? :D



And your evidence isn't anecdotal?


Sadly it is true, as many others have already confirmed in this thread and others.


Already told you, feinting with fast attacks is the 50/50

They just need to add chip damage to blocking.

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 05:03 PM
And your evidence isn't anecdotal?

No, it's based on game theory and framedata observations. It's literally maths.

Kav0rk4
02-13-2017, 05:05 PM
As we all know theory and practice are two different things.

Did you include human reaction time/human error and lag into your equations?

Don't even answer that, because you didn't. Because in practical situations no one will be able to predict every feint->gb attempt.

Not to mention quick attacks (zones also).

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 05:09 PM
As we all know theory and practice are two different things.

Did you include human reaction time/human error and lag into your equations?

Don't even answer that, because you didn't. Because in practical situations no one will be able to predict every feint->gb attempt.

That's what Ubisoft thought and they were proven wrong. Frame advantage from a feint isn't big enough to guarantee a hit, it's that simple.

Lag shouldn't be an issue here, because it doesn't affect the host and it won't be present iin a tournament setting.

Anyway what's your point here? You want Ubi to keep feints broken and useless? Cause I'm pretty sure they wanted them to force the defending player to commit - and it simply doesn't work like that.

By the way, you used the word "predict", which is simply wrong. People can do that on reaction. If they had to predict, the game would be fine. If Ubi adjusts the numbers to force the players to predict the attack, it will fix this issue with no further changes necessary.

GregoryMcFlint
02-13-2017, 05:11 PM
For the people who are super "defensive" on your claims that aggressive play is viable, I sure love the irony. ;)

Also, $5 sounds a lot more cost effective for a staring simulator than $60. :o

SEE YOU ON THE RP FIELDS!

Kav0rk4
02-13-2017, 05:12 PM
That's what Ubisoft thought and they were proven wrong. Frame advantage from a feint isn't big enough to guarantee a hit, it's that simple.

Lag shouldn't be an issue here, because it doesn't affect the host and it won't be present iin a tournament setting.

Anyway what's your point here? You want Ubi to keep feints broken and useless? Cause I'm pretty sure they wanted them to force the defending player to commit - and they don't.

How where they proven wrong? Where is your data to back up these claims?

But ASSUMING that's so the fix is simple. Add block chip damage and increase the feint window.

Peligrad
02-13-2017, 05:14 PM
Literally not an argument. You're using anecdotal evidence and giving us your match history when 99,9% of people can't even play the game properly.

But hey, you seem to be doing well, so you're the right person to ask: please provide us with an example of a real 50/50 that can't be countered on reaction. You've been "playing the aggressor", so this surely won't be a problem, right? :D

First off, you're right. Not an argument. I'm not stating an argument. I'm stating fact. FACT is that I played aggressor successfully all freaking Beta long despite you kids saying it isn't possible. POINT. SET. MATCH. GG. End of thread.

The game is full of 50/50s...

Conqueror charged heavy.

Opponent has 3 options attack, deflect/parry, or GB. only 2 will result in damage.

If opponent GBs and conq doesn't attack GB is successful.
If opponent GBs and conq attacks opponent is hit with charged heavy.

Opponent can go into range and try to deflect/parry the heavy. Attack comes in at increased speed and is fairly difficult to parry/deflect especially if conq switches stances irregularly.

Opponent can go for an attack to interrupt the charged heavy. If blocked he gets hit in the face with charged heavy.

If opponent goes for deflect/parry then conq can break charged heavy and go straight into a GB.

Warden's shoulder charge.

Warden has 3 options and can guess the reaction to counter the opponent's reaction. Defender only has 2 options that deal damage.

1: Warden can follow through with the charge. The defender must dodge or attack to avoid this.

2: Warden can cancel the charge into a parry. If the defender attacks to interrupt the charge he gets parried.

3: Warden can cancel the charge into a GB. If the defender dodges GB connects.

Also... if the system works for 99.9% of the players... who the f**k cares about the .1%?

You can't expect Ubi to change core mechanics of their game to satisfy .1% of the player base.

That is just straight up unreasonable.

If you are that .1% and you don't like the duel mechanics. Go play a different format or GTFO. No one will miss you.

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 05:20 PM
How where they proven wrong? Where is your data to back up these claims?

But ASSUMING that's so the fix is simple. Add block chip damage and increase the feint window.

There are plenty of clips with people reacting to feints followed by a light attacks, so it kinda proves that the framedata makes it possible.

If it's possible, then it can be made consistent with enough training.

And yes, the fix is simple. I mean we're talking a couple of frames here, but it's really important for high level play.

@Peligrad
All of the "50/50s" you provided can be reacted to, so by definition they aren't 50/50s.

Literally nobody is talking about overhauling the whole system, it simply requires a minor fix that you probably wouldn't even notice because you don't seem to unerstand how the game works.

And it's not about 0.1% of the players, it's about 99.9% emulating proper play once tournament footage becomes available. If every scrublet starts emulating the "never attack" playstyle than guess what, the game won't be very enjoyable for anyone.

YOGZULA
02-13-2017, 05:25 PM
The correct solution is to change how rewarding parrying is.

the game is already balanced enough for low level play. In fact, aggression dominates low level play where blocking is already difficult enough for most people and so is counter guard breaks or anything of that nature. Just throw out a lot of attacks and you'll kill people. Making aggression better, or making defense worse at a basic level makes the game less fun for lesser skilled players. The solution is to target the high skill defense techniques like parrying and deflecting. That's the core of the problem and I wish more people would see that so it could be addressed asap

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 05:25 PM
The only 50/50 currently in the game is the Warden shouldercharge. Your conqueror example is no 50/50 because it can be parried consistently.


There are several threads in this forum in different categories popping up, all several pages long, all about this exact issue.. Many people already see it..

Take into account that most players only had this one weekend of practice - with time more and more people will be able to parry every attack in the game 90% of the time or more.



The only way to disagree with the problem is if you claim that top-level players cannot parry most, if not all, attacks in the game consistently - which is, after looking at streams or playing the game yourself at high level, a false claim.


Another thing is that a fix would not affect people who disagree with the issue - because a fix would target the parry mechanic, which according to you is already a rare occurence and can be countered.

Breikas.
02-13-2017, 05:35 PM
This is indeed a real problem.

How about this for light attacks:

A light attack can't be parried
A light attack doesn't get staggered on block, so you can continue your chain
A light attack also does chip damage when blocked


This is how it's done in other fighters, the opening should come after the light combo, where the players get reset on offensive and defensive. After the chain it's up to the defender or the attacker to be aggressive or defensive, but defensive comes at the cost of chip damage.

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 05:36 PM
Let's identify the problem here.
Feint doesn't work as intended and doesn't force 50/50s.
Explanation: you can cancel your parry heavy to block from a different direction.
Solution: move heavy attack cancel a few frames towards the end of the animation.

There, suddenly the game is working again.

The most hilarious part is the amount of people that don't even understand what we're talking about going mad about the idea of an adjustment they wouldn't even notice.

Perhaps GB also needs a similar treatment, but to be honest it'd be perfectly reasonable to fix parry/feint and simply observe the meta for a few weeks.



Oh, and by the way, the Warden shoulder charge isn't a 50/50 because roll-backdash is a thing and it simply defeats all the offensive options.

Dreamsweeps
02-13-2017, 05:37 PM
I suggest speed up the game with 53,2% and maby remove UI :D

Arnaldo27
02-13-2017, 05:39 PM
This is indeed a real problem.

How about this for light attacks:

A light attack can't be parried
A light attack doesn't get staggered on block, so you can continue your chain
A light attack also does chip damage when blocked


This is how it's done in other fighters, the opening should come after the light combo, where the players get reset on offensive and defensive. After the chain it's up to the defender or the attacker to be aggressive or defensive, but defensive comes at the cost of chip damage.

This would be a huge advantages for faster classes.

Peligrad
02-13-2017, 06:15 PM
The only 50/50 currently in the game is the Warden shouldercharge. Your conqueror example is no 50/50 because it can be parried consistently.


There are several threads in this forum in different categories popping up, all several pages long, all about this exact issue.. Many people already see it..

Take into account that most players only had this one weekend of practice - with time more and more people will be able to parry every attack in the game 90% of the time or more.



The only way to disagree with the problem is if you claim that top-level players cannot parry most, if not all, attacks in the game consistently - which is, after looking at streams or playing the game yourself at high level, a false claim.


Another thing is that a fix would not affect people who disagree with the issue - because a fix would target the parry mechanic, which according to you is already a rare occurence and can be countered.

Except it can't be parried if you don't swing and you can instantly cancel it to go into a GB.

You can also cancel it with dodge or all block stance and go into shield bash off either of those options. With enough mix ups you eventually are going to throw the other guy off and get damage in.

Also, I beat your challenge by providing you a 50/50. What's my prize?

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 06:26 PM
It'd be nice if you actually checked what a real 50/50 is before attempting to post examples of 50/50s. A 50/50 prevents reactive play and forces a guess. None of your examples force a guess. You're assuming that your opponent is incompetent and won't be able to provide you with a correct, 100% mechanical response.

So yeah, you win the prize: you managed to provide us with some of the dumbest posts in a thread that, quite frankly, started with misidentifying the problem.

It all boils down to a simple bugfix, ie. making feints work. It's not even about balance, it's basically a game feature being broken and not impacting the game in terms of frame advantage.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 06:27 PM
Except it can't be parried if you don't swing and you can instantly cancel it to go into a GB.

You can also cancel it with dodge or all block stance and go into shield bash off either of those options. With enough mix ups you eventually are going to throw the other guy off and get damage in.

If the conqueror doesn't swing, the defender simply does nothing. I counter GBs in my sleep. That doesn't even qualify as mixup.

2nd scenario is an easy dodge on shield bash. I'm not even sure why you are bringing up the charged heavy in all of this, if you swing it its getting parried. If youre not swinging it, its just about dodging the shield-bash, which is straight-up easy for any assassins and consistently doable for other classes.

The point still stands and will stand due to the mechanics currently in the game. Whoever attacks first loses.

Flatlander57
02-13-2017, 06:53 PM
This game is simple.

For Defense, it is 100% skill-based reactions. (Similar to Guitar Hero)
The attacker decides what the difficulty is, (by doing mix-ups, etc) but, it's still reactions, and with a bit of practice, you can defend against every single offensive option in the game.

Also, Parrying an attack can be safe (if you do it correctly). Even if you Parry, and your enemy feints the attack, you can cancel the heavy and Parry the next incoming attack. You can literally match your opponent move for move with Parries making your defense not only invincible, but you get to counter every single attack with Guard Break + Heavy.

None of the above is an opinion, it is all facts about the game For Honor.

Imagine a Extremely good player, in any mode. Any attack you do is Parried+GuardBreak+Heavy. Your only option is to wait for a teammate so you can hit him while his guard is being broken. Well, guess what, he can dodge + attack when your teammate guard-breaks him, meaning it's possible that he can win this too. So now you have to 2v1 him, and you might still lose, because he can dodge away from whoever is not guard breaking, and attack the guard-breaking player. So now you call a 3rd friend, so you can have one guy on the left, one on the right, and the middle guy spams guard-break while you both attack, he can't dodge either direction, so he now has a chance of losing. Congratulations, this sounds like amazing gameplay.

Sure this is an extreme example, but it is 100% possible with how gameplay currently works in For Honor.

Knight_Raime
02-13-2017, 07:11 PM
This game is simple.

For Defense, it is 100% skill-based reactions. (Similar to Guitar Hero)
The attacker decides what the difficulty is, (by doing mix-ups, etc) but, it's still reactions, and with a bit of practice, you can defend against every single offensive option in the game.

Also, Parrying an attack can be safe (if you do it correctly). Even if you Parry, and your enemy feints the attack, you can cancel the heavy and Parry the next incoming attack. You can literally match your opponent move for move with Parries making your defense not only invincible, but you get to counter every single attack with Guard Break + Heavy.

None of the above is an opinion, it is all facts about the game For Honor.

Imagine a Extremely good player, in any mode. Any attack you do is Parried+GuardBreak+Heavy. Your only option is to wait for a teammate so you can hit him while his guard is being broken. Well, guess what, he can dodge + attack when your teammate guard-breaks him, meaning it's possible that he can win this too. So now you have to 2v1 him, and you might still lose, because he can dodge away from whoever is not guard breaking, and attack the guard-breaking player. So now you call a 3rd friend, so you can have one guy on the left, one on the right, and the middle guy spams guard-break while you both attack, he can't dodge either direction, so he now has a chance of losing. Congratulations, this sounds like amazing gameplay.

Sure this is an extreme example, but it is 100% possible with how gameplay currently works in For Honor.

Did you happen to see my post a few pages back? It had some suggestions on how to improve the game. I'd like your opinion since you brought that wonderful twitch clip in and seem to have a good grasp on the game.

Darkius-Mori
02-13-2017, 08:34 PM
Let's identify the problem here.
Feint doesn't work as intended and doesn't force 50/50s.
Explanation: you can cancel your parry heavy to block from a different direction.
Solution: move heavy attack cancel a few frames towards the end of the animation.

There, suddenly the game is working again.



This is genius.

Let's see this in an example (taking example from the very instructive video posted earlier):

Scenario: Orochi feints, and Warden throws a heavy to parry. In the present state, both can cancel parries indefinitely on reaction.

In the patched - late feint - state, the Warden could still cancel the heavy meant for a parry. But by then Orochi has feinted and can light attack and interrupt the heavy, which hasn't reached feint frames yet.

The Warden as a result HAS TO GUESS whether the heavy is going to be feinted or not. He has to CHOOSE between parry (risk/reward as a result of reading the opponent) and blocking (safe). As it is, you can just feint and block, you can have the reward without the risk, provided your reactions are fast.

Now things could go differently according to light attack speeds, but it would still push the boundary of what you can react to and therefore would insert more guessing as opposed to reacting, without affecting lower level play too much.

Let me know what you think, what problems it may cause etc... But I think this would make heavies more interesting, blocking the safe method it was meant to be, and parrying the clutch mechanic it was also probably meant to be.

theBigBadWolfe
02-13-2017, 09:55 PM
I would go even further to say that whoever feints an attack can't feint into blocking, or defensive maneuver (except parry), they have to continue attacking to guard break. High level players should still be able to feint and parry an incoming attack.
Additionally I would make taunting actually do something. If the opponent is standing there doing nothing, you should be able to use a taunt to buff yourself. Either gives your character more attack, defense, or lower the enemies’ stamina.
Lastly, in Overwatch they made an early change in ultimate charge from only building up when you take damage to just building up naturally over the game. This made it very effective in breaking stalemates.

I would like to see the Revenge meter also build up over time during combat for both players, but favoring the aggressor, so that he can use it to break through an opponent's defense.

Vault_Traveler
02-13-2017, 10:08 PM
Make it that if you "parry" while feinting your character swings his weapon in empty air makes him open for the next attack.

Feint on Block > as usual nothing happens

Feint on Parry attempt > animation penalty for defending player he cannot block or parry for some short time.

Ofcourse feint has to look exactly like an attack until the very last moment.

Peligrad
02-13-2017, 10:32 PM
The OPs suggestion seems fine, however, you have 14 pages of people complaining and not a single person in here is good enough for it to even matter.

I have watched literally every single streamer on twitch and there isn't a single one who is getting into "staring contests" with his opponent for any length of time.

Yes there is a lot more parry and feint play but we are all people playing with limited reflexes and a little latency.

Even the best players get fooled and fooled regularly by each-others little mind games.

Also, if you make offense have too strong of an advantage over defense then you'll break the defensively oriented characters.

The game is fine IMO

TogawaFan
02-13-2017, 11:17 PM
The OPs suggestion seems fine, however, you have 14 pages of people complaining and not a single person in here is good enough for it to even matter.

I have watched literally every single streamer on twitch and there isn't a single one who is getting into "staring contests" with his opponent for any length of time.

Yes there is a lot more parry and feint play but we are all people playing with limited reflexes and a little latency.

Even the best players get fooled and fooled regularly by each-others little mind games.

Also, if you make offense have too strong of an advantage over defense then you'll break the defensively oriented characters.

The game is fine IMO

It's irrelevant that streamers fighting random people who've played 3 days don't expose this, because those people do not represent where people's skill will be at in two weeks, two months, three months. The best players now, inexperienced but fast learners, are a preview of that. Have you seen the hyperdefensive Warden vs Orochi video? The Nobushi vs hyperdefensive Nobushi video? They feint and swing and feint and feint and guardbreak and feint and swing for minutes, and it goes nowhere. Those are the best players. There is no fooling them, because there is no fooling someone who doesn't have to predict anything. Or commit to anything. Or risk anything. It is well within the range of normal reflexes to defend flawlessly in For Honor, you just need the experience to develop the correct reactions. I fought several people in the open beta who were almost there already. And I was the same.

RazhemUplay
02-13-2017, 11:40 PM
Leaving aside the very real issue that offense tends to get you killed against very good players, even if that was solved (be it guardbreaking, be it feinting), I still have the very big issue that in high level play, a good chunk of all hero kits becomes useless. Doing chains tends to just give more windows for parries so that applies to all chains in the game outside of guaranteed double taps like Warden or Orochi and using Kensei as an example, all of his step in and attack are very telegraphed and I've learned the hard way, easy to parry, any block stops the 3 attack chain if using lights, using heavies to ensure makes you parry bait again and your dash guardbreak can be teched adinfinitum as long as the enemy isn't caught in an untechabale animation. Suddenly all of Kensei and his Top finisher shenanigans turns into wait for parry, guardbreak, smack to wall and Top finisher, and that's all the unique Kensei you will get out of it. There is a reason I'm convinced Warden is king in top level play.

TogawaFan
02-14-2017, 12:00 AM
Leaving aside the very real issue that offense tends to get you killed against very good players, even if that was solved (be it guardbreaking, be it feinting), I still have the very big issue that in high level play, a good chunk of all hero kits becomes useless. Doing chains tends to just give more windows for parries so that applies to all chains in the game outside of guaranteed double taps like Warden or Orochi and using Kensei as an example, all of his step in and attack are very telegraphed and I've learned the hard way, easy to parry, any block stops the 3 attack chain if using lights, using heavies to ensure makes you parry bait again and your dash guardbreak can be teched adinfinitum as long as the enemy isn't caught in an untechabale animation. Suddenly all of Kensei and his Top finisher shenanigans turns into wait for parry, guardbreak, smack to wall and Top finisher, and that's all the unique Kensei you will get out of it. There is a reason I'm convinced Warden is king in top level play.

Aye. I wonder if it would be possible for feint heavy attacks to stall the chain instead of breaking it? So Kensei can go, say, [LIGHT > FEINT HEAVY > REAL HEAVY > CHAIN FINISHER]. I'd also like Kensei to maybe use less stamina on feints, so it can really go wild with the mixup. This is assuming feints are improved. Also, I feel cancelling top finisher into a side-light should start a new chain? Or possibly even be the second hit of a new chain, so you could go [TOP FINISHER CANCEL > SIDE LIGHT > CHAIN FINISHER].

SurtrBearBlood
02-14-2017, 12:13 AM
While parry is part of the issue its not the sole cause and any direct nerf to parry into a garenteed guard break is a direct nerf to all heros who rely on counter attacks.

OK disclaimer iam not a expert at this game and do not claim to be i claim to be all of decent at For Honor no more no less that being said i do have a ruff understanding of the game mechanics and based on this and the assumption that it is possible for a person to have godlike reaction to parry, dodge or at least block absolutely every attack that that exists in the game and proceed to win said match which i honestly doubt but operating on that assumption.

To me this has more to do with the dynamic between feints, heavy attacks, parries and block.

The biggest of these issues in my eyes is heavy attacks after a certain point become only used for either feinting or punishing usually through the medium of a guard break seeing as heavy attack is its self a under performing tool due to being easily parried after a certain amount of practic and therefor risky to use why not make heavy attacks do significant damage to someone who is blocking lets say half of its damage effects the target exact percentage of how much damage is tranfered could vary from character to character as it would make sence for a Conq or warlord to take far less damage from blocking a heavy than say a warden due to their sheilds, this damage even with block would make defenders actively want to parry incoming heavy attacks for more reasons than just to apply damage now they will want to to not eat half a heavy attack.

This would also make a feint more than just a carrot to dangle in front of them to bait them into making a mistake it makes the feint a treat for every feint could have just have easily been a heavy attack that they would have needed to parry other wise they would take damage also a parry should not be feint able in my opinion, and here is the basic guess someone has to make is it a feint or is it a heavy attack both will hurt eating the heavy should probably hurt more as the heavy is a risk to use where as the faint is relatively safe.

If its true that a faint never gets to the point of the indicator blinking then that needs to be adjusted as that means that by falling for feints if it wasn't a feint they would have eatten a heavy attack for their trouble as they missed the parry, perhaps bring the parry window forward so that its in the same range as the feint window so that both the attacker and defender are guessing or make it so that as soon as the red indicator appears you can start the parry and a parry is failed if you dont parry fast enough however this may be a tad harsh in combination with my proposed changes to heavy attacks, also a parry should not be cancelled even with a faint as the attacker needs something to punish if they play there cards right.

The last thing is all parries should not be treated equally heavy attack parry is alot easier to pull off than a parry on a light attack not to mention some of the really fast light attacks like the peacekeeper who iam not even sure if it is possible to parry them, due to this difference i would suggest to make what you can do after a parry based on what you parried if it was a heavy attack you take no damage from said heavy attack and get a opening to do a light attack into a chain with only the first light attack being unblock able, parring a light attack however that should be a proper punish with either a free heavy into chain or free guard break for punish. I also think a well timed block on a light attack say a mechanic similar to how the light classes where if you move the stick from nuetral to one guard as a hit is about to connect it with a light attack then it should create a opening for a light attack thus flipping the attack direction and may help with stopping light attack spam from dominating new players.

Guess that wasnt the last thing after all, in order for this to work guard breaks are going to have to take longer to do than a light attack i would highly avoid making light attacks any quicker than they are as thats a very slippery slope, however this would be a bit of a nerf to guard break which may not be a bad thing in fairness considering how powerful they are when they are pulled off, the other issue i can see from my own suggestion is how this would simply make dodging the go to for avoiding heavy attacks and the only suggestion i have is to make dodge only work if you dodge in the opposite direction of the attack other wise you get hit so if the heavy is coming from high guard then you need to dodge back other wise it will track you if its coming from the left gaurd then you need to dodge to his right and so on, but iam not so certain about this.

Eji1700
02-14-2017, 12:49 AM
Some thoughts on how to fix some of the issues (there's no way to watch that oro v warden vid and not see it)

First- some of you may be interested in this: http://www.teyah.net/milliablocker.html

This demonstrates how GG handles turtling. The sol in this example will ALWAYS block lows (which happen too fast to react to, so naturally you block low), and if you push any button he'll block high. This little game will show quickly how extremely hard it is to just react to everything milla does, especially without context. In a match you know the situations where you'll likely need to block high vs low, so it weights the RPS, but you cannot just sit back and react to everything because she will open you up and tear you apart. Thus you're incentivized to not just defend, but attack as well, because if you just defend forever you WILL lose (quickly too).

As others have shown, if you defend forever in For Honor right now, you'll tie, or maybe win if they do something you can easily punish.

In short, yes all good fighting games are RPS, but weighted RPS (overheads are better in GG When you have meter for example so you can cancel into damage). For Honor right now is literally tic tac toe. You can win against people who don't know how to play, but against someone who knows the rules, your options are lose or draw.

With that said.

1. Lights probably need to be faster across the board, second and 3rd hits of chains should ABSOLUTELY be faster, as a reward for you getting an attack in without it being parried or in the case of the conq blocked.

This does cause issues, but a huge problem is nothing is impossible to react to except very few moves (and even those are maybes like the warden's zone). I think it'd actually be better if say for most of the cast left lights were VERY fast (think warden zone or overhead), so you'll naturally leave your guard there (much like blocking low), while other directions are slightly slower but still hard to react to if under pressure (you still need more pressure though). There's already some of this in the game in that overhead's are usually stronger than left/rights at the cost of worse tracking (although side dodges still seem to be very good even against side attacks).

2. GB's need to be faster. They should probably remain as is with mild balance changes elsewhere, but faster GB's are a must. I don't think you can have easy to tech throws in a game like this at all. You need something more akin to SF2 where you had to attack to tech and predictably.

3. Heavies need to give real advantage on block. They are so so so ****ing risky right now, especially if you play conq who's cancels are worse, and they give you basically nothing for all that risk. On block you get a "stagger" that's essentially worthless rather than being actual advantage. On parry you eat a free GB which is insanely bad vs most of the cast. You could probably add a LOT more chip damage as well for some of the classes.

4. You need to remove the option selects and the mashing. Going for a parry? Mash feint just in case they bait you. Blocked by conq? Mash tech in case he goes for the free GB. There's a zillion more of these examples.

5. Relating to the previous you probably need to buff feints and nerf them. Let people feint way later in the attack and have them cost less stamina, but also don't let them cancel into neutral. Only canceling into lights/heavies/GB's. Maybe not even that much. Also maybe force feints to only be later, so that people who whiff a parry are committed to a heavy for a reasonable amount of time.

6. Buff the **** out of being stamina broken. It's not nearly bad enough right now to matter.

7. Rolling in general is also way too good at being a get out jail free option. In a non 2d game it's not certain you'll ever be able to stop them. It is weaker than it first appears, but still likely too good given how hard it is to get offense rolling.

8. Finally if you do get a real game going, some stuff needs to be unsafe on block. This sounds like it nerfs aggression ,but it allows you to design much stronger moves. For example rather than nerfing warden light overhead/zone mixup, i'd rather see it stay as is (if not better) but have both be punishable on block (not parry).

TeoHTime
02-14-2017, 01:14 AM
Want a path to fix things?

1. Remove option select Parry feints

Obviously, no reason this should be a thing. Easy solution? Parrying is now performed with the Feint button. If you're not in the middle of a heavy and you press Feint you will now Parry in the direction you've selected. Difference being that if you miss a Parry your character now performs a big whiff animation similar to a missed GB and you get hit in the face. Boom fixed.

2. Give players some form of offence which can't be stopped by waiting and reacting
3. Make range mean something by having options which are especially effective at certain ranges
4. Create prompts for mind games where players are forced to react to a situation where an option might be available, instead of reacting to the option itself

Simplest solution without adding new moves or animations? Let Back+GB perform a fast, close version of Guard Break. Instead of tracking forwards and following people from long range, you now grab on the spot without moving using the animation which normally plays when whiffing completely. Effective range: Point blank. Speed: Dramatically increased. Let it lose to lights and fail against dashes, but make it impossible to react to.

This creates a threat which becomes active only at a certain range. The moment players reach that range they are forced to deal with that threat, and they have to guess because they can't wait to react. This is exactly the same option which makes spacing and movement so important in traditional fighters - Normals and Throws in Street Fighter are impossible to react to, but only effective from a particular range. Players don't react to the attacks, they react to the change in spacing, but that allows for the option of fooling each other by threatening a particular spacing without following through on the threat. In practice, this allows simply moving forwards and backwards to act as a "feint". In For Honour, this could take the form of players moving forwards to threaten the close grab, only to throw a light and beat an attempt to counter. Dashing away from a Back+GB could net you a whiff punish, but would lose to a regular GB. Now you've got a fighter-like mind game built around ranges, where changes in position could suddenly matter again. Instead of everybody ending up in each other's face blocking everything on reaction because being close poses no additional threat to anybody other than the Nob.

NiceBoatUS
02-14-2017, 01:30 AM
Your suggestions are pretty nice for a new fighting game, but I think you should keep it real and stay within the system. I mean... feinting on a different button? You really think Ubisoft is going to implement that? Redesign the entire fighting system? Alter the speed of every move? Guys, we're literally less than 6 hours from release, we aren't brainstorming a new FH-inspired fighting game here.

I'm pretty sure they won't go beyond anything that doesn't boil down to tweaking numbers and fine-tuning framedata.

In fact, I'm really worried they might look at all the "we want a complete overhaul" posts and say "screw it, this is too much effort, can't waste resources on this stuff, we're keeping it casual this time".

I think this discussion would be healthier and more useful for the devs if everyone simply accepted FH for what it is and focused on stuff that doesn't require a lot of effort on their part.

Hell, maybe - just maybe - some of the problems have already been fixed.

TeoHTime
02-14-2017, 01:37 AM
Your suggestions are pretty nice for a new fighting game, but I think you should keep it real and stay within the system. I mean... feinting on a different button? You really think Ubisoft is going to implement that? Redesign the entire fighting system? Alter the speed of every move? Guys, we're literally less than 6 hours from release, we aren't brainstorming a new FH-inspired fighting game here.

It's not clear who you're replying to, but I didn't suggest that. Adding Back+GB was my low effort solution to giving everybody something unreactable. Everybody has GB, everybody has a stationary GB animation which plays when performing GB out of range. Just make Back+GB perform that animation with a fast point blank grab.

You don't put Feint on a new button, you just add an additional function to the same button. Since the Feint button does nothing if you're not currently performing a Heavy, and this is the reason you're able to option select Parries with it. If the button actually did something, and that something was queued after a Parry then you wouldn't want to option select with it on every Parry attempt. Instead of creating a new "something" to break the option select however, you could simply use Parry as the new something, by adding it as an extra function to that button. Any other solution to fix the option select is also fine, but needs to consider just how much finger gymnastics players are capable of if you allow them to gain an advantage through execution.

NiceBoatUS
02-14-2017, 01:47 AM
Well yeah, what I meant was that it's easier to make feint start later on in the attack than it is to make the feint button start a move from neutral. Both things basically achieve the same outcome (can't option select on parries), but one is a rather minor tweak and the other might even require them to commit new visual resources (think tutorial videos an so on). That's why I said it'd be better to keep it real, because this increases the chance that Ubi will actually listen to our feedback.

From what I understand, heavy attack/feint framedata can be adjusted because it used to be different in a previous test. Making GB harder to tech is probably also perfectly doable. Changing basic concepts like making defence cost stamina and even drastically increasing chip damage... I don't think it'd be easy to convince them to do that and I'm not even sure it's all that necessary.

I think we kinda all agree that feints that allow for option select on parries but don't force a 50/50 are broken, so lets focus on that.
If that isn't enough to fix the game, then let's look into GB, because it's the next obvious thing. I mean a strong GB alone would absolutely destroy the guard meta and force really aggressive duels, because you'd have to start swinging in order not to get GB'd - with working feints it'd really force high level players to go at it seriously instead of staring at each other for hours.

Let's save all the other stuff for later, maybe it won't even be necessary to talk about that.

Eji1700
02-14-2017, 01:51 AM
Well yeah, what I meant was that it's easier to make feint start later on in the attack than it is to make the feint button start a move from neutral. Both things basically achieve the same outcome (can't option select on parries), but one is a rather minor tweak and the other might even require them to commit new visual resources (think tutorial videos an so on). That's why I said it'd be better to keep it real, because this increases the chance that Ubi will actually listen to our feedback.

From what I understand, heavy attack/feint framedata can be adjusted because it used to be different in a previous test. Making GB harder to tech is probably also perfectly doable. Changing basic concepts like making defence cost stamina and even drastically increasing chip damage... I don't think it'd be easy to convince them to do that and I'm not even sure it's all that necessary.

I think we kinda all agree that feints that allow for option select on parries but don't force a 50/50 are broken, so lets focus on that.
If that isn't enough to fix the game, then let's look into GB, because it's the next obvious thing.

Let's save all the other stuff for later, maybe it won't even be necessary to talk about that.
If you only fix Parry OS then no one will ever parry and you still have the same problem. Parry OS does need to be removed, but the main issue is that even without parrying you'll never ever lose if you just play 100% defensive. You must change something elsewhere at the very least.

NiceBoatUS
02-14-2017, 01:59 AM
If you only fix Parry OS then no one will ever parry and you still have the same problem. Parry OS does need to be removed, but the main issue is that even without parrying you'll never ever lose if you just play 100% defensive. You must change something elsewhere at the very least.

You're right, that's why I also mentioned guardbreak. Making it untechable on reaction would remove any incentive to turtle and it'd actually open the game up. Suddenly everyone would become very threatening up close, which'd force at least 1 player to start swinging to avoid being thrown. More aggression would enable more footsies and more healthy parries/blocks that'd serve to regain the initiative and so on.

I mean the basic framework of the game is solid on the conceptual level (attacking defeats GB, GB defeats defence, parries defeat attacks, feints defeat parries), it's just that the current feint/GB framedata doesn't allow it to work. I'd go so far as to say that this is exactly how the game works right now on the casual level (because newbies can't tech GB and block consistently), so it's just a matter of extending it to the high level of play.

TeoHTime
02-14-2017, 02:25 AM
You're right, that's why I also mentioned guardbreak. Making it untechable on reaction would remove any incentive to turtle and it'd actually open the game up. Suddenly everyone would become very threatening up close, which'd force at least 1 player to start swinging to avoid being thrown. More aggression would enable more footsies and more healthy parries/blocks that'd serve to regain the initiative and so on.

I mean the basic framework of the game is solid on the conceptual level (attacking defeats GB, GB defeats defence, parries defeat attacks, feints defeat parries), it's just that the current feint/GB framedata doesn't allow it to work. I'd go so far as to say that this is exactly how the game works right now on the casual level (because newbies can't tech GB and block consistently), so it's just a matter of extending it to the high level of play.

I do agree with your logic but I'm not sure the current GB range counts as "up close", it works from the effective melee range of the shorter ranged classes. Currently it seems tuned more as a dash counter than a block counter, so the range is intended to chase grabs. I think there is still a need for a backdash counter, so reducing the range without there being another equivalent option might not be ideal.

Eji1700
02-14-2017, 02:39 AM
You're right, that's why I also mentioned guardbreak. Making it untechable on reaction would remove any incentive to turtle and it'd actually open the game up. Suddenly everyone would become very threatening up close, which'd force at least 1 player to start swinging to avoid being thrown. More aggression would enable more footsies and more healthy parries/blocks that'd serve to regain the initiative and so on.

I mean the basic framework of the game is solid on the conceptual level (attacking defeats GB, GB defeats defence, parries defeat attacks, feints defeat parries), it's just that the current feint/GB framedata doesn't allow it to work. I'd go so far as to say that this is exactly how the game works right now on the casual level (because newbies can't tech GB and block consistently), so it's just a matter of extending it to the high level of play.

My point is that even if you do this you still don't have enough. Your mixup now only exists at point blank range (neutering any "long range" class). Chains are still mostly useless and defensive classes still suffer (raider/conq). The basic framework might just barely work at that point, but I don't think you'll have a good game at high level, for players or spectators.

Imp-C-Bravo
02-14-2017, 02:56 AM
I think the defense mechanics are fine honestly. It's less defensive mechanics and more lack of offensive options. Each character has too few offensive moves. If they all had more moves to attack with I think hyper defense would not be an issue. This is assuming that hyper defense is a problem -- I don't think the game (and player skill) is at the point to definitively prove that it is yet.

TeoHTime
02-14-2017, 03:02 AM
My point is that even if you do this you still don't have enough. Your mixup now only exists at point blank range (neutering any "long range" class). Chains are still mostly useless and defensive classes still suffer (raider/conq). The basic framework might just barely work at that point, but I don't think you'll have a good game at high level, for players or spectators.

Increasing the distance that parries push the attacker, or reducing the range of GB will make distance parries less dangerous, which allows longer range classes to attack more freely. If being parried at long range only costs you stamina damage, you have a reason to stay at range, and a reason to attack more as your attacks are now "safe".

Being able to slide into GB from a long Parry is the number one reason why Parries are so dangerous, and parries being so dangerous is the number one reason that offensive play is risky.

kreOOO
02-14-2017, 03:06 AM
I've enjoyed the beta a great deal but had similar thoughts on full-on defence meta. Hence I've decided to check Ubi's forum and was pleasently surprised the community is very vocative on the issue. Thats why I've spent several hours reading discussions and making my mind on the sollution. :rolleyes:

So, I agree with those who sad that sollution should be simple (at least at first, since the launch is right in front of us), as Ubisoft also has to patch technical issues and outright bugs ASAP. For example I liked the possible idea of redistributing stamina usage on defensive actions, but such change in core gameplay can't be done without thorough testing and will definitely take time. Also I agree that changes shouldn't affect low- and mid-tier play (since they're already pretty balanced with possibly some few class-specific exceptions here and there) as it will ruin the game for an actual target audience. So keeping that in mind I've composed following list of suggestions (all of which were mentioned before in some form or another, but to summorize it):

- make chip damage noticable, make light attacks inflict corresponding chip damage;
- implement sudden death rules (in Duel a player with more health wins, in Brawl / Elimination a team with more players alive wins);
- shorten a timer in Duel / Brawl / Elimination so the sudden death would apply appropriate preassure on a losing player/team;
- make faints be activated later into the animation making it a 50/50 guess and impossible to do as a defensive option on a wiffed parry.

Any comments, mates? Anything to add? :rolleyes:

Also to mention I didn't suggest anything to do with guardbreaks, since messing with them would defy either the first rule (if they're redesigned completely), second (making them uncounterable / harder to counter would massively mess up low- and mid-tier play) or most likely both.

Eji1700
02-14-2017, 03:30 AM
I've enjoyed the beta a great deal but had similar thoughts on full-on defence meta. Hence I've decided to check Ubi's forum and was pleasently surprised the community is very vocative on the issue. Thats why I've spent several hours reading discussions and making my mind on the sollution. :rolleyes:

So, I agree with those who sad that sollution should be simple (at least at first, since the launch is right in front of us), as Ubisoft also has to patch technical issues and outright bugs ASAP. For example I liked the possible idea of redistributing stamina usage on defensive actions, but such change in core gameplay can't be done without thorough testing and will definitely take time. Also I agree that changes shouldn't affect low- and mid-tier play (since they're already pretty balanced with possibly some few class-specific exceptions here and there) as it will ruin the game for an actual target audience. So keeping that in mind I've composed following list of suggestions (all of which were mentioned before in some form or another, but to summorize it):

- make chip damage noticable, make light attacks inflict corresponding chip damage;
- implement sudden death rules (in Duel a player with more health wins, in Brawl / Elimination a team with more players alive wins);
- shorten a timer in Duel / Brawl / Elimination so the sudden death would apply appropriate preassure on a losing player/team;
- make faints be activated later into the animation making it a 50/50 guess and impossible to do as a defensive option on a wiffed parry.

Any comments, mates? Anything to add? :rolleyes:

Also to mention I didn't suggest anything to do with guardbreaks, since messing with them would defy either the first rule (if they're redesigned completely), second (making them uncounterable / harder to counter would massively mess up low- and mid-tier play) or most likely both.

If i know you can always tech GB's on reaction, why would i ever GB you? This leaves them only being landed if the opponent attempts to dodge or gets parried, and makes feint into GB a really awful option. This vastly nerfs any class that relys on GB's for its main gimmicks (conq + ken + 2 of the vikings) and makes fast attacking classes likely the best by far. You also don't have anyone bothering to do chains still, which are mostly just a higher chance to get parried and destroyed.

I get that elegant and simple is best here, but we haven't even touched on how bad a defensive meta is for a game who's "main" mode involves holding territory and has a comeback mechanic for the more you block, let alone 1v1.

Pariah695
02-14-2017, 03:30 AM
I don't see any problem with making guard breaks unreactable in terms of low and mid level play. They already whine that it's impossible to react to. It won't make much of a difference to them. The way to balance that is to make basic attacking better so even with an unreactable guard break, attacking is still a preferred option a majority of times.

I feel like most of you guys are a bit misguided in how to fix this game. You're all talking about how to fix just one part of the game. Parries. And while I agree something needs to be adjusted about the feint mechanic so it's properly punishable if someone attempts to parry, that won't fix everything. Unfeintable attacks will still be useless, Raider unblockable remains a free parry for the enemy. Not to mention that making parry feints punishable turns the game into raw rock/paper/scissors with no additional depth. If a guy chooses not to parry and just block everything, he still remains untouchable, increasing chip damage still makes for an unfun and frustrating way to attack. Guard breaks remain useless in neutral game. And you still can't throw out a simple light attack ever.

Honestly guys, I don't think Ubisoft has any intention of fixing this game. These problems have existed since the first alpha I played months ago, and people were saying the same things. I can't imagine Ubisoft's play testers are all so bad that they never came to see these problems as well. I really think they just don't care and are targeting casuals with this game.

theBigBadWolfe
02-14-2017, 03:34 AM
I am fine with the idea of eliminating the dash animation from a parried guard break. It doesn't seem to be universal that all characters get the dash after a parry, so removing that entirely will not only fix the defense meta, but it will create better balance overall.

I also still feel strongly that taunts should do something, and that Revenge should be more useful in breaking stalemates.

kreOOO
02-14-2017, 03:57 AM
If i know you can always tech GB's on reaction, why would i ever GB you?

Because most of the playerbase can't tech GBs on reaction.


This vastly nerfs any class that relys on GB's for its main gimmicks (conq + ken + 2 of the vikings) and makes fast attacking classes likely the best by far. You also don't have anyone bothering to do chains still, which are mostly just a higher chance to get parried and destroyed.

I agree. But I don't see any simple solutions to this. Solving this stuff probably requires a major redesign in game mechanics. And as Pariah695 said, Ubi most likely (like 99%) won't do such dramatic changes. But they might do this (what I've mentioned) since it wouldn't require much resources and wouldn't affect target audience. IMO it's still better than nothing.


I don't see any problem with making guard breaks unreactable in terms of low and mid level play. They already whine that it's impossible to react to. It won't make much of a difference to them. The way to balance that is to make basic attacking better so even with an unreactable guard break, attacking is still a preferred option a majority of times.

Well, in mid-level play is where GBs shine. Usually countered if opponent is expecting, but likely to work if a part of a mix-up or after faint. But another (probably even more prlevent) reason is you can't make them uncounterable without redesigning them (how much you can get out of them, throws etc., it all've been said before). And we both know Ubi won't go for such redesign.


Honestly guys, I don't think Ubisoft has any intention of fixing this game. These problems have existed since the first alpha I played months ago, and people were saying the same things. I can't imagine Ubisoft's play testers are all so bad that they never came to see these problems as well. I really think they just don't care and are targeting casuals with this game.

Amen to that. But what I've suggested is a minimun required for a game to function properly and at the same time the maximum what Ubi might be willing to do (from what I can tell but their alpha-to-betas changes).

P.S. I've also forgot to mention to add some more simple penalties to running out of stamina. Maybe disability to dash or something.

Eji1700
02-14-2017, 05:11 AM
Because most of the playerbase can't tech GBs on reaction.



I agree. But I don't see any simple solutions to this. Solving this stuff probably requires a major redesign in game mechanics. And as Pariah695 said, Ubi most likely (like 99%) won't do such dramatic changes. But they might do this (what I've mentioned) since it wouldn't require much resources and wouldn't affect target audience. IMO it's still better than nothing.



Well, in mid-level play is where GBs shine. Usually countered if opponent is expecting, but likely to work if a part of a mix-up or after faint. But another (probably even more prlevent) reason is you can't make them uncounterable without redesigning them (how much you can get out of them, throws etc., it all've been said before). And we both know Ubi won't go for such redesign.



Amen to that. But what I've suggested is a minimun required for a game to function properly and at the same time the maximum what Ubi might be willing to do (from what I can tell but their alpha-to-betas changes).

P.S. I've also forgot to mention to add some more simple penalties to running out of stamina. Maybe disability to dash or something.

Most of the playerbase thinks attacking is currently a viable option. This obviously isn't about them, and even if it is, why risk running into a guy who can when i could just never do it? The meta WILL catch up with easy things, and I sincerely expect that in just outside of 3 months tops a majority of the remaining player base will be able to tech 70%+ of throws. Much like Rainbow Six Siege this game will have an initial barrage of casuals, but it's clearly trying to grab community by focusing on having some sort of competitive scene, and that will not last if the scene is broken.

Anyways it seems this is all currently pointless to discuss as we've got no changes on launch and no real word from Ubi dev's to my knowledge. I know any change that needs to be rolled out takes time and I'd hoped their experience with Siege meant they'd try, but I'm afraid this will wind up like the early assassins creed multiplayer as a solved game.

Roxefeller
02-14-2017, 05:29 AM
Let's clear up the ******** being spread around this thread. The whole Flatlander v Eiffle discussion - That Orochi (Flatlander) was barely trying to break the Warden's defenses. Before you try to speculate that you would or could for that matter, implement such a pure defensive tactic in top tier; let's see you reach top tier first. Sure I'm not top tier nor do I claim to be. However, anyone with even the slightest level of skill can see that the Orochi hardly put any effort into it.
There's a reason why you don't see top tier players in this thread defending the OP's point. Because there is no issue in the top tier. The top tier players are probably laughing at all of you right now given that they would even waste their time reading this nonsense.

Eji1700
02-14-2017, 05:33 AM
Let's clear up the ******** being spread around this thread. The whole Flatlander v Eiffle discussion - That Orochi (Flatlander) was barely trying to break the Warden's defenses. Before you try to speculate that you would or could for that matter, implement such a pure defensive tactic in top tier; let's see you reach top tier first. Sure I'm not top tier nor do I claim to be. However, anyone with even the slightest level of skill can see that the Orochi hardly put any effort into it.
There's a reason why you don't see top tier players in this thread defending the OP's point. Because there is no issue in the top tier. The top tier players are probably laughing at all of you right now given that they would even waste their time reading this nonsense.

Who's a top tier player I can watch then?

Sanscion
02-14-2017, 05:44 AM
Let's clear up the ******** being spread around this thread. The whole Flatlander v Eiffle discussion - That Orochi (Flatlander) was barely trying to break the Warden's defenses. Before you try to speculate that you would or could for that matter, implement such a pure defensive tactic in top tier; let's see you reach top tier first. Sure I'm not top tier nor do I claim to be. However, anyone with even the slightest level of skill can see that the Orochi hardly put any effort into it.
There's a reason why you don't see top tier players in this thread defending the OP's point. Because there is no issue in the top tier. The top tier players are probably laughing at all of you right now given that they would even waste their time reading this nonsense.

How could the Orochi put more effort into breaking Eiffle's defense?

Pariah695
02-14-2017, 05:47 AM
How could the Orochi put more effort into breaking Eiffle's defense?

His only real viable option would be to try to bait high parries and punish with GB. From there it turns into R/P/S. Maybe one or two feints into zone attack would land. That's about it.

Roxefeller
02-14-2017, 05:57 AM
Who's a top tier player I can watch then?

Can't rely on the leader boards posted in the forums because the system is quite skewed in that it doesn't calculate ALT+F4 matches as a loss. In fact, it just doesn't record them at all. However, you can watch players like 'euphoric_shadow', Youtube name TrU3Ta1ent. This player displays top tier skill, plays all heroes and performs exceedingly well with them. Also watch the players he fights as he has a high MMR, so is placed against top tier players.

Roxefeller
02-14-2017, 05:59 AM
How could the Orochi put more effort into breaking Eiffle's defense?

This has already been answered earlier in the thread. Please read.

GregoryMcFlint
02-14-2017, 06:39 AM
Let's clear up the ******** being spread around this thread. The whole Flatlander v Eiffle discussion - That Orochi (Flatlander) was barely trying to break the Warden's defenses. Before you try to speculate that you would or could for that matter, implement such a pure defensive tactic in top tier; let's see you reach top tier first. Sure I'm not top tier nor do I claim to be. However, anyone with even the slightest level of skill can see that the Orochi hardly put any effort into it.
There's a reason why you don't see top tier players in this thread defending the OP's point. Because there is no issue in the top tier. The top tier players are probably laughing at all of you right now given that they would even waste their time reading this nonsense.

Well, the game's out now. You guys have a grand ol' time with your p2p, never attack first, 3D "fighter."

Enjoy your 3 months until the game dies! ;)

Pariah695
02-14-2017, 06:47 AM
Well, the game's out now. You guys have a grand ol' time with your p2p, never attack first, 3D "fighter."

Enjoy your 3 months until the game dies! ;)

I still think it's worth supporting this game. The last lesson I want Ubisoft to learn is that people don't want new original games that are cool and clearly have an actual vision. They'll just use that as an example to justify shoving more Assassin's Creed down our throats. The game can be fixed. With the huge torrent of complaints that are no doubt to come, I think it's only a matter of time before the game becomes playable. Hopefully.

Sanscion
02-14-2017, 07:23 AM
This has already been answered earlier in the thread. Please read.

All answers have been rebutted. Most people here with even a modicum of fighting game knowledge have already come to the same conclusions, without true 50/50s, and with parry being the most effective way to deal damage, defense will reign supreme.

Knight_Raime
02-14-2017, 10:43 AM
Let's clear up the ******** being spread around this thread. The whole Flatlander v Eiffle discussion - That Orochi (Flatlander) was barely trying to break the Warden's defenses. Before you try to speculate that you would or could for that matter, implement such a pure defensive tactic in top tier; let's see you reach top tier first. Sure I'm not top tier nor do I claim to be. However, anyone with even the slightest level of skill can see that the Orochi hardly put any effort into it.
There's a reason why you don't see top tier players in this thread defending the OP's point. Because there is no issue in the top tier. The top tier players are probably laughing at all of you right now given that they would even waste their time reading this nonsense.

Just because it's possible for a player to beat someone who's playing defensive doesn't mean there isn't an issue. attacking comes with risk. defense does not. Parrying would if you couldn't immediately feint your failed parry attempt. It doesn't also refute the fact that in top tier gameplay is 100@ reactive based. which Trutalent said himself in a stream I was personally watching. He doesn't have an issue with it. But others do.

There is only one actual 50/50 in the game. If you have any decent amount of knowledge on how other fighting games work you'd both know and understand how important it is to have 50/50's. To reiterate. myself one last time for you (since repetition is one method of teaching)

The video that was shown was to give evidence on how safe it is to be defensive. Not that it's impossible to break a defense. and the problem we are having is that parrying and teching guard breaks are safe. Defense trumps offense. all we're asking for is more 50/50's and slightly toning down how powerful defense is. Nothing is unreasonable about either request.

Vault_Traveler
02-14-2017, 12:41 PM
Well, the game's out now. You guys have a grand ol' time with your p2p, never attack first, 3D "fighter."

Enjoy your 3 months until the game dies! ;)

You add nothing to anything.

GregoryMcFlint
02-14-2017, 01:34 PM
you add nothing to anything.

Okay! Thanks for sharing! :o

Stankyfoot
02-14-2017, 02:36 PM
Being able to feint light attacks will do a lot to help this issue and would make for a more interesting game. Being able to play with rhythm is a huge part of landing shots in fighting and a huge part of playing with rhythm is the feinting game. In an actual fight you can feint with absolutely anything; right now, the core mechanics in for honor allows for only 3 feints. If you double that to 6 by allowing light attacks to be feinted we would get MORE than double the options given that the two types of feint can be played off each other.

chateae
02-15-2017, 11:22 PM
I think the battle UI needs to be removed for high tier competitive plays. Sure you can have battle UI for noobs and people who dont want to play competitively. But if you're climbing leaderboard, I think the UI has to go. This will make defensive play more difficult and you actually have to read your opponent instead of just react to the big red glowing arrow all day long, which is easy as hell.

ExSiNz
02-16-2017, 03:25 AM
Who's a top tier player I can watch then?

https://www.twitch.tv/tru3ta1ent He played vs the winner of feb12 1vs1 tournament (I believe he actually won 1 game too). I also believe he is fairly good.

LunarMammal369
02-16-2017, 04:06 PM
I think the game is fine as it is. Ubisoft should just remove the blinking arrows that helps notify us of incoming attacks, GB etc.

This should make blocks and parries more difficult and should encourage more attacks.

There will still be people who are able to parry and imho those will be the masters of the game.

Zerlias
02-16-2017, 04:10 PM
I think the game is fine as it is. Ubisoft should just remove the blinking arrows that helps notify us of incoming attacks, GB etc.

This should make blocks and parries more difficult and should encourage more attacks.

There will still be people who are able to parry and imho those will be the masters of the game.


Like in story mode, with realistic difficulty ? I really like it, i didn't check if it is possible, but it should be a setting for some multiplayer modes that we can turn off if desired. And maybe watching competitive play without indicators could be even more thrilling.

Pariah695
02-16-2017, 04:11 PM
I think the game is fine as it is. Ubisoft should just remove the blinking arrows that helps notify us of incoming attacks, GB etc.

This should make blocks and parries more difficult and should encourage more attacks.

There will still be people who are able to parry and imho those will be the masters of the game.

No level of mastery of a competitive game should make you nearly untouchable. Because when two of these masters face each other, literally nothing happens.

TruBmp
02-16-2017, 08:41 PM
something needs to be changed. when you fight an enemy really good at counter guardbreaking and blocking the game becomes so incredibly slow, basicly just 2 chars staring eachother down.
i wouldnt even mind if you got a guaranteed GB after X of your attacks got blocked (number adjusted to character attack speed). after all its usually just one guaranteed heavy and you can still make it risky for the enemy to get close.

you can still parry fine but you cant just wait 2 minutes for the enemy to make a mistake just blocking.

that or quite heavy changes to blocking and chipdamage.

Triplash
02-16-2017, 08:53 PM
Wow. 18 pages boiling down to "we want there to be an attack for which there is no defense" and coming up with 100 examples of how there is a counter to everything. That's the point of the game. For every attack there is supposed to be something the defender should have done, and that's the whole basis of the game, who executes these rocks/papers/scissors, who uses their classes strengths better and minimizes their classes weaknesses more. "Add a GB that is impossible to react, dodge or counter to" is literally one of the suggestions here. You can't have rocks, papers, scissors and introduce a 4th that beats them all and not ruin the system. I'm really glad Ubi understands this better than the forum.

Reapy54
02-16-2017, 09:25 PM
That is not what people are asking for at all. The thing is you have 3 directions to block on attacks that all come out really slow compared to many games that might involve reactions to an event, games that fit your standard esports genera like fighting/LOL/DOTA/Counterstrike. We know what people can do timing wise. There are only 4 things to worry about, 3 attack directions that are simplistic to block consistently and a guard break that takes a bit of work to get the timing down.

There are then a few classes that have one or two unblockables that you have to dodge. Once you have perfected this, an easy feat for many, many average gamers. Sure some guys will get it in a few hours, but in a few months the average for honor player will be blocking everything, teching guard breaks, and dodging away from charges.

This is the issue, and if you actually read a lot of the posts not many people aren't saying give them something that is impossible to hit. They are saying give some offensive options that won't be ridiculously punished so you can actually attack someone who is good at the game without losing.

GartenInc
02-16-2017, 10:05 PM
I like the idea of CGBs getting harder the more defensive you are.
With every consecutive block the window to counter a guard break gets shorter until it's a guaranteed guard break. Offensive actions reset the window.
Normal gameplay remains basically unaffected by this, but hyper defensive playstyles are punished.

TruBmp
02-16-2017, 10:34 PM
Wow. 18 pages boiling down to "we want there to be an attack for which there is no defense" and coming up with 100 examples of how there is a counter to everything. That's the point of the game. For every attack there is supposed to be something the defender should have done, and that's the whole basis of the game, who executes these rocks/papers/scissors, who uses their classes strengths better and minimizes their classes weaknesses more. "Add a GB that is impossible to react, dodge or counter to" is literally one of the suggestions here. You can't have rocks, papers, scissors and introduce a 4th that beats them all and not ruin the system. I'm really glad Ubi understands this better than the forum.

the game shouldnt be a snailspace game of chicken of who attacks first. 2 chars staring at eachother is not fun period.

and even with no counter guardbreak at all ( i suggested something that only punishes overly defensive play) you could still try to control your distance to the character and counter gbs with light attacks etc cause they dont work once a attack animation started.

fact is when my brother came over to fetch something i quickly shoed him the game. WEll he saw a duel vs a completly defensive player that perfectly countered 95% of gb attempts and just blocked evrything. the duel lasted forever and my brother reacted with a "well that looks damn boring. where is the counter to that?" and i had to tell him that you basicly can only hope he ****s up. at which he laughed and noped out.

This is not the kind of game people want to play. and we need to talk about this problem before half of the population learns to counter guardbreaks and block well enough...


I like the idea of CGBs getting harder the more defensive you are.
With every consecutive block the window to counter a guard break gets shorter until it's a guaranteed guard break. Offensive actions reset the window.
Normal gameplay remains basically unaffected by this, but hyper defensive playstyles are punished.

yeah i like that better then my basic idea. instead of a counter just reducing the window with each block is a great solution, reset on succesful guardbreak against or a hit on the enemy. just needs to be balanced around the classes attacks so you cant reduce the window 5 times as fast with an orochi then a lawbringer for example.

JimHatama
02-17-2017, 12:01 AM
this needs to be fixed

Altair_Snake
02-17-2017, 12:51 AM
How about making making the timing of GB techs much earlier, so that you have to commit/guess more?

hazeion1
02-17-2017, 12:55 AM
Allow us to feint light attacks. have the light attack feint cost more stamina than a heavy feint. To be honest though.. I can't see this problem changing without a pretty drastic fundamental change.

XORaptor0
02-17-2017, 12:57 AM
I'm not even particularly good at this game, but I've come to realize that it kind of does devolve into staring matches - especially Lawbringer v Lawbringer.
I won't pretend to be an expert on game design, and while I've read through a lot of this threat I can't read all of it. So if I repeat someone else I apologize.



I don't really know what could fix this. If parries are nerfed, buffed, or removed it could pose a serious problem without really fixing anything. Turtling would become a bigger problem if parry is changed in any way.

The only possible way I can see to resolve this problem would be to look at other fighting games. I only have experience with SSB, so that's my only reference.
In SSB shield beats attacks, grab beats shield, and attack/movement beats grab. On top of that your shields deplete the more you hold them, or when they get hit.

The only thing I can think of to resolve turtle meta is to make grabs over powered, like they are in SSB. Meaning, once you're grabbed your opponent is guaranteed a hefty yet reasonable punish. The closest thing we have to grabbing is guard break. So, perhaps the way to fix this would be to make counter guard breaking impossible, but attacking can still get you out of being guard broken. It might also be a good idea to nerf guard break tracking so you can dodge it, but then it might indirectly buff assassin classes too much. So in this instance it might be a good idea to make dodging cost stamina. Actually, dodging probably should cost stamina anyway. Failing to connect a guard break should result in you being open for a light punish (not a punish that is equal to or greater than the reward of connecting a guard break).

Another solution that could possibly fix this would be to make blocking drain a regenerating resource. When the shield 'breaks' it could allow for an extremely pricey punish that might cost the game if the defender is weak enough. How would this work? I have no idea. Because in this game blocking is innate, and can't be turned off.
Assassins already kind of have this in that they can only block 1 attack in the same stance, but experienced players can negate this by swapping stances.

Perhaps another fix would be to make ublockable attacks unparryable as well. But in that instance I wouldn't be surprised if people just spammed them... more than they do now anyway. Honestly this one is my least favorite.

Another thing SSB does is that it allows certain moves to 'poke' shields - meaning if the defender holds shield for too long, parts of their body will stick out of their shield allowing certain moves with smaller hitboxes to hit the defender even if they're holding shield. The key to this is that it requires insane precision on the part of the attacker. Even though I don't really wanna poke their shield when I'm using Yoshi's d-air, I wanna break their shield, dammit! But that's neither here nor there.

How does that translate into this game? Beats me, I'm just suggesting ideas, because I love this game, and would like to see the meta thrive.
In the end I'm glad people who know more about game design are in charge here, because I'm at a loss for ideas that wouldn't change the game's mechanics too much.

SeeNoWeevil
02-17-2017, 02:46 PM
How about making making the timing of GB techs much earlier, so that you have to commit/guess more?
Like every other fighting game on the planet?

I don't see how the game is going to work at higher levels with GBs that you can react to.

Xanthus730
02-17-2017, 05:15 PM
fact is when my brother came over to fetch something i quickly shoed him the game. WEll he saw a duel vs a completly defensive player that perfectly countered 95% of gb attempts and just blocked evrything. the duel lasted forever and my brother reacted with a "well that looks damn boring. where is the counter to that?" and i had to tell him that you basicly can only hope he ****s up. at which he laughed and noped out.

This is not the kind of game people want to play. and we need to talk about this problem before half of the population learns to counter guardbreaks and block well enough...

This. So much this. Even if your opponent isn't perfect. Even if they only defend 80% or 75% of your attacks, their defense, if they're parrying, puts them in a position to do MUCH more damage than the attacker. There's no benefit to attacking against a competent opponent. The risk v reward doesn't pan out.

I think the fixes don't need to be as drastic as people think though. I made a suggestion/poll thread here if anyone would like to contribute:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1579355-Summary-of-Defense-v-Offense-Imbalance-and-Possible-(Easy)-Fixes

e.Ryzekanzler
02-17-2017, 05:25 PM
Just play warden. They are too fast, so you can attack as first as much you want.

- Ryze

SpazzMaticuz
02-22-2017, 10:45 PM
http://memestatic.fjcdn.com/pictures/Dark_1f9041_6178920.jpg
Smells like DS

Zyrusticae
02-23-2017, 11:42 PM
Wow. 18 pages boiling down to "we want there to be an attack for which there is no defense" and coming up with 100 examples of how there is a counter to everything. That's the point of the game. For every attack there is supposed to be something the defender should have done, and that's the whole basis of the game, who executes these rocks/papers/scissors, who uses their classes strengths better and minimizes their classes weaknesses more. "Add a GB that is impossible to react, dodge or counter to" is literally one of the suggestions here. You can't have rocks, papers, scissors and introduce a 4th that beats them all and not ruin the system. I'm really glad Ubi understands this better than the forum.
That's a nice thought, but how about actually addressing the elephant in the room that is completely impenetrable high-level players who provide no openings and thus stare each other down until the clock ticks over?

The fact is that there are too many ways to deal with attacks in this game, most of which are more effective than the attacks themselves, which creates a combat situation that is, quite frankly, incredibly boring to play and equally boring to watch. If we kept all the defensive systems the same we'd have to boost everyone's attack speed beyond human reaction speed, and where would that leave us?

Parry isn't even necessary to the health of the game - if anything, it's entirely detrimental. No defensive measure should be SO POWERFUL that it completely eclipses all methods of attack in usefulness. How did we ever get from there to here? It's a terrible design flaw in a game where you should be encouraging players to be aggressive and actually try to kill each other.

Gojema
02-24-2017, 01:05 AM
I don't think parry is the problem. I think the major problem is that guard break doesn't break the defense. It is basically just another type of attack that can be defended on reaction like the other attacks.

There is just no rock/paper/scissors system.

Xanthus730
02-24-2017, 01:12 AM
I don't think making guard break the ultimate answer to this is a good...answer.
I think the previous post on parry is more spot-on.

Parry, right now, is literally the best damage combo starter option, in terms of risk and rewards, AND risk vs rewards, for nearly every character in the game...
...And it is a DEFENSIVE option.

That shouldn't be a thing.

YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 01:28 AM
Agreed with the above two posts. The real issue is that parrying can be led into with an untechable guard break.

Parrying: Stops unblockables, makes you take no damage, stumbles your opponent and causes heavy stamina damage.

That mechanic simply does not need to reward a free guard break that can not be teched. If you can follow it with a guard break, i'm ok with that. If you can tech it. If you can follow it with an attack, i'm also ok with that, if it can be blocked.

the current state of parry makes playing defensively the best offensive option. Not enough characters have tools to actually play around parry. The only character that can really output enough pressure is the warden with his shoulder bash mixup and safe light attacks. Any character that relies on heavy attacks in any form can **** off.

Xanthus730
02-24-2017, 02:01 AM
The current state of parry also makes attack chains/combos basically a noob trap. Anyone who actually attempts to go into a chain is basically BEGGING the opponent to parry them, as their next attack is now 100% predictable.

I feel like if they either lowered the stagger from parry so you could block/tech after being parried, or raised the recovery from parrying, to accomplish the same, they could maybe raise the stamina damage from parrying someone to compensate and it would be a better state of affairs.

Not sure what they can do to fix combos though - they're just worthless.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 04:20 AM
Not sure what they can do to fix combos though - they're just worthless.

Been thinking of ideas for this with a friend o' mine.

A good start would be to prevent normal blocks from interrupting combos. Currently, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, but they never should.

Blocking could consume stamina (more than attacking), which would eliminate a pure defensive meta. Heavies should do chip damage on top of stamina drain from the block, which would encourage parries.

Parries, in turn, could require much more precision than it currently does. It really is insane how easy the timing is for parrying.

GregoryMcFlint
02-24-2017, 07:34 AM
Oh damn! This thread is still going strong? Well, MAKE THE PARRY WINDOW MUCH SMALLER or reduce the hit-stun on parry so it can be blocked at the very last second. Also, both work too! ^.^

droper66
02-24-2017, 03:18 PM
I like the idea of CGBs getting harder the more defensive you are.
With every consecutive block the window to counter a guard break gets shorter until it's a guaranteed guard break. Offensive actions reset the window.
Normal gameplay remains basically unaffected by this, but hyper defensive playstyles are punished.

This rewards spamming attacks and them guard breaking for the win. Quicker more mobile units will have an advantage as well.

Kotourachan
02-24-2017, 06:33 PM
I think parrying shouldn't be an immediate stun, instead it should transition into a stunning heavy or light attack depending on what the initial parry was. The opponent should also have the chance to re parry which resets the fight. This would reward riskier parries and gives the opponent the chance to save theirselves. There still wouldn't be much incentive to attack first in case you get parried but at least if you are as skilled as they are then you might be able to negate the damage. I think the lack of free damage from the parry would make it a lot less scary to attack.

Another interesting solution might be to make parries a charged ability that is unlocked after so many blocks/attacks (the amount depending on the class). This way the game starts quickly and without fear of free parries, it also will alert you to a full "parry bar" which will indicate that your opponent has the ability to parry now. The pace might slow down as the player with the parry tries to bait a heavy, but even if he does bait one the opponent would still have the chance to reparry. I think the only problem I can forsee with this is that the player with the parry might be able to force his opponent into a low stam situation where he is unable to cancel his parry attempt and as a result is punished simply for having low stam, although if he is allowed a free reparry attempt (like above) then this shouldn't be a problem.

I would like it also if there was a PTR server where they could try these things out with actual players.

Munktor
02-24-2017, 06:47 PM
After reading the entirety of this thread, I have come to the conclusion that hyper-competitive video-gamers are easily the worst type of video-gamer out there.

GenLiu
02-24-2017, 08:44 PM
I disagree with this entire topic for two reasons:
1/ I truly don't think that defending is that strong in For honor. It's totally possible to win by attacking due to a lot of tools to your disposal (feints, dashes, GB...) which are completely reliable if you use them properly.
2/ Because I think it's kinda fresh to finally have a game that reward defense to a reasonable degree when almost the entire fighting game panorama is filled with games that highly encourage aggressive play (KoF series, Blazblue, Soul calibur, Tekken...). Not that I don't like game that are more attack oriented but it's just cool to play something different for once.

It's also funny to see people arguing that defense is too strong because of parries when For Honor is one of the game that have the less punishing parries in pretty much any game that featured this mechanic before...

Xanthus730
02-24-2017, 09:20 PM
After reading the entirety of this thread, I have come to the conclusion that hyper-competitive video-gamers are easily the worst type of video-gamer out there.
Define worst? For that matter, define best.

It's totally possible to win by attacking due to a lot of tools to your disposal (feints, dashes, GB...) which are completely reliable if you use them properly.
2/ Because I think it's kinda fresh to finally have a game that reward defense to a reasonable degree when almost the entire fighting game panorama is filled with games that highly encourage aggressive play (KoF series, Blazblue, Soul calibur, Tekken...). Not that I don't like game that are more attack oriented but it's just cool to play something different for once.

It's also funny to see people arguing that defense is too strong because of parries when For Honor is one of the game that have the less punishing parries in pretty much any game that featured this mechanic before...
The problem is that feints, dashes, and GB are NOT in any way reliable against good players. But that's really not a HUGE problem. They don't need to be 100% reliable. If they were 100% reliable, defense would be worthless. Which I don't think anyone wants.

The problem people have with Parry right now is that it's NOT rewarded to a reasonable degree. Punishes from Parry are easily the most damaging things in the game for the majority of classes. Meaning, your best option to damage your opponent is to parry an attack and punish them - not to try to attack them. If you want to play 'smart' - you don't attack.

GenLiu
02-25-2017, 10:49 AM
The problem is that feints, dashes, and GB are NOT in any way reliable against good players. But that's really not a HUGE problem. They don't need to be 100% reliable. If they were 100% reliable, defense would be worthless. Which I don't think anyone wants.
Defending isn't a 1OO% reliable tactic either, I fought against some really good players who used feints and mix ups at a ridiculous degree, making defending a really hard task.
Besides attack and defense are both all relative as it depends on the character you're playing (a Warlord doesn't have the same defensive/offensive tools than a Warden for example).


The problem people have with Parry right now is that it's NOT rewarded to a reasonable degree. Punishes from Parry are easily the most damaging things in the game for the majority of classes. Meaning, your best option to damage your opponent is to parry an attack and punish them - not to try to attack them. If you want to play 'smart' - you don't attack.
Or you be careful on how and when you use your attack. It's funny how people think that top players are basically robots capable of parrying every incoming attack no matter what. It's completely possible to bait even the best player in the world if you have enough skill.
Also, parry are the most damaging option....provided you do it close enough to land a GB. If you play clever and get parried far enough your opponent will just get a light to punish you, at most.

G0BackT0G0
02-25-2017, 02:56 PM
There is a simple tactic to destroy the hiper passive guys:faint.I was losing every time against conq/warden that just waited till I dashed in.Then i started to dash and faint my heavyes,they fail to parry,you can do a light/Gb them.Fainting is useless against aggressive opponents,bit it's perfect in those situations.

i do not think feints help AT ALL. you can only feint VERY early into the actual attack. there is really NO reason for the opponent to fall for a feint by trying top parry.


I disagree with this entire topic for two reasons:
1/ I truly don't think that defending is that strong in For honor. It's totally possible to win by attacking due to a lot of tools to your disposal (feints, dashes, GB...) which are completely reliable if you use them properly.
2/ Because I think it's kinda fresh to finally have a game that reward defense to a reasonable degree when almost the entire fighting game panorama is filled with games that highly encourage aggressive play (KoF series, Blazblue, Soul calibur, Tekken...). Not that I don't like game that are more attack oriented but it's just cool to play something different for once.

It's also funny to see people arguing that defense is too strong because of parries when For Honor is one of the game that have the less punishing parries in pretty much any game that featured this mechanic before...

i explained above why i think feints are nearly worthless. idk why you think dashes are in ANY way suitable to break someone's defense. they are not. and guard breaks are literally useless against someone who is playing defensive because the window to counter guard break is so long its almost impossible to fail. your last sentence also is just false.

i encourage everyone to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4wuB6SiDqQ&feature=youtu.be&t=936
those are all veterans in fighting games and they agree that defense is WAY too strong.

Stankyfoot
02-25-2017, 05:58 PM
One thing we can do to negate it is stop crying for the Wardens vortex to be removed and ask for other characters to get similar mechanics instead.

EnderAtreides
02-25-2017, 06:27 PM
I agree with the general consensus here that defense is currently essentially impenetrable at high level play. The supposed solutions to turtling are:

Mixing up attack directions (good players can block fast attacks 100% on reaction)
Feinting heavy attacks (good players can either block or feint attempted parries, 100% on reaction)
Guard break fully defensive people (good players can be counter-guard break 100% on reaction)

Especially egregious is Guard Break being used solely as punishment following a parry because it's infinitely counterable, alongside the ability to parry light attacks, which rewards perfect defense over perfect offense.

I think the best mechanic for dealing with this is integrating with stamina. If countering GBs cost more stamina than GB itself, GB would serve a function to eventually open the opponent up to attacks. Light attacks could also be made impossible to parry or feint-able. Add a stamina cost to dodging (possibly more costly to go backwards than forwards) so that characters can't simply safely run away and wait for stamina recovery. Then you just have to make it so someone that's exhausted is unable to 100% defend. Perhaps make exhausted players take chip damage from heavies, not build revenge, and/or whatever conditions make them much more vulnerable but not automatically dead.

Altogether, full defense is no longer safe, guard break is no longer useless, and at its core it doesn't require particularly difficult changes to the game, mostly a couple of stamina cost tweaks.

GenLiu
02-25-2017, 07:53 PM
i explained above why i think feints are nearly worthless. idk why you think dashes are in ANY way suitable to break someone's defense. they are not. and guard breaks are literally useless against someone who is playing defensive because the window to counter guard break is so long its almost impossible to fail. your last sentence also is just false.

i encourage everyone to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4wuB6SiDqQ&feature=youtu.be&t=936
those are all veterans in fighting games and they agree that defense is WAY too strong.
Dashes are helpful for offensive strategy because they allows you to create a reaction from your opponent and also give you the ability to surprise them. If you stand at mid range and then dash forward>attack/GB you can trick your opponent, for example. Besides, it allows you to work on your positioning and push your opponent in tricky parts of the environment (which is quiet easy if your opponent is turteling) and that's also part of the offensive strategy.

Also, no offense to anyone but Ultradavid and James Chen are not what I consider "top players". I'm not saying that their opinion doesn't count and I'm not saying that defense isn't very strong in the game. I just say that it's entirely possible to build up a strong offensive strategy in this game and I'm pretty sure some "real" top player can go through any defense if they work their character.

Now, speaking of which and as I said, talking about defense and offense is all relative because it also depend on the character you're playing. For example I truly think that a good Warden or a Berserker can kill even a very defensive player with their offensive options. Sure if you're talking about the Orochi or the Lawbringer for example, you'd better stay on defense but it depends on your character and saying that basically defense is OP and offense is useless sound very off to me.

What sentence is false? That For honor has one of the less punishing parry among any game that uses this mechanic? What game are you refering to to back up your argue then? Because every single game that come in my mind (SF3.3, Souls Calibur 5, Samurai shodown series...) can close up a game out of one successful parry. This is definitely not the case with For honor, unless you take it at close range.

Zyrusticae
02-25-2017, 09:25 PM
It really would be easy to fix. Here's some simple mechanical changes they could make to change things up:

1. Make guard breaks almost impossible to interrupt. Basically, you should have to anticipate when they do it and hit it at the same time they do (within, say, a 1/6th second window - 5 frames at 30 FPS or 10 frames at 60 FPS). Otherwise, the safer way to interrupt should be to attack.

2. Make environmental kills impossible unless the target is exhausted. Bam, suddenly being exhausted is actually really scary, matches aren't decided on a single button press, AND guard breaks are not totally OP now that they're almost impossible to interrupt without attacking.

3. Make parries no longer grant a free guard break, have a window of activation about as small as guard break interrupts are as noted above, and cannot be performed against unblockables. Parries are thus more useful as tools to create spacing and reset the match than to reverse offense entirely, and unblockables can actually be used to pressure opponents and mix them up. (They still need charge time changes, but that's a character-specific balance issue that needs to be addressed on its own.)

4. Make blocking use up stamina and cost more stamina for heavy attacks. Make chip damage more effective (even at max block damage the current damage is completely ignorable). Again, parries (and dodges) are then useful for preventing you from having to eat chip and stamina damage. Also, the light attacks of heavier weapons shouldn't be deflected if blocked unless they hit a shield. As light attacks for slower weapons are really rather weak right now, this would give them something to help even them up against the peacekeepers and berserkers of the world. It also means you can actually pressure an opponent with your light chains, as opposed to having them interrupted with ease every time.

5. Make dodging use stamina and the i-frames limited to the very beginning of the dodge (half a second, or 15 frames at 30 FPS/30 frames at 60 FPS), allowing players to catch dodge-spamming players out with properly timed light attacks or heavies. Dodging should require at least some level of skill instead of being as braindead as it is now. In addition, dodge attacks (for assassins and the kensei) should lose their i-frames as soon as the attack starts up and should still be vulnerable to guard breaks. The whole function of dodging should be to avoid predictable attacks and counter attack, not to be bloody invincible the whole time.

With these changes, suddenly deflects are now really important for an assassin player to properly maintain their offense, as parries no longer guarantee huge offense and dodging alone can be risky. Heavies can no longer turtle so reliably because they can't 100% interrupt all guard breaks and they'll run out of stamina eventually anyway.

There's a whole list of class-specific balance changes that would need to be made, but that's true no matter what the underlying mechanics are. I'd love to address them after they perform an overhaul of the base mechanics, but not until then. They really need to do it if they want this game to have any future at all.

solho
02-25-2017, 11:56 PM
Esto se podria solucionar facil para que ambas partes tengan la posibilidad de hacer algo y que la meta no sea solo esperar al que el otro ataque, como ? en el momento que se recibe el ataque y se produce el parry que produce que el defensor saque ventaja de eso, se podria sacar el parry actual para que entre en modo de disputa por ambas partes como seria esto? dejo una unica imagen que encontre que lo representa claramente:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uFtvVsoaKI0/hqdefault.jpg
Entonces en este momento las dos partes tendria que volver apretar por ejemplo romper guardia, entonces seria cuestion de velocidad para que ambos tengan las mismas oportunidades y no solo sea ventaja para el que defiende.
Pienso que el parry es algo bueno pero solo tendria que aplicarse a los ataques rapidos que son mas dificil, que los ataques pesados entonces quedaria el parry actual con los ataques ligeros y los ataques pesados con el parry que acabo de proponer, creo que esto haria que los duelos dejen de ser tan pasivos y defensivos.

PD: por favor si alguien que habla español entiende mi idea, que la traduzca claramente jajaja

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 04:09 AM
Everyone is trying to think of these elaborate complicated fixes for defense being better than anything else, where as the solution is so incredibly simple.

This is something I just assumed happend all the time without ever checking actually, and I've played this game ~30 hours already.



Just make blocking take chip damage.


Easy.

It took 11 pages to bring this to light. Wow.

Easy fix: Chip damage (5-20%), unique to each class based on a series of variables.

If this alone doesn't fix the problem, extend the window in which you can feint. Actions after late feinting should be delayed more than early feints.

Felis_Menari
02-26-2017, 04:49 AM
It took 11 pages to bring this to light. Wow.

Easy fix: Chip damage (5-20%), unique to each class based on a series of variables.

If this alone doesn't fix the problem, extend the window in which you can feint. Actions after late feinting should be delayed more than early feints.

I can definitely see a slight increase for fronting windows (sometimes I try to feint before my amweapon is swung, but doesn't stop it). But the chip damage on all attacks...I think that will just make the light attack spam worse, since it is much more difficult to parry lights than heavies.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 04:56 AM
I can definitely see a slight increase for fronting windows (sometimes I try to feint before my amweapon is swung, but doesn't stop it). But the chip damage on all attacks...I think that will just make the light attack spam worse, since it is much more difficult to parry lights than heavies.

Light chip damage would not be equal to heavy chip damage, and classes capable of spamming should have lesser chip rewards. You're underestimating how dramatically chip damage will change the game. It subtly diminishes the incentive to block just enough to bring it back into the realm of active exchanges (how the game is meant to be played). This can be supplemented further if need be with a larger feint window.

I think incentivizing light parries would be a good thing, not a negative.

I recommend reading through Kav0rk4's posts. He nailed it.

Zyrusticae
02-26-2017, 07:14 AM
Chip damage does not help prevent parries from being the #1 most optimal action at all times, nor does it stop guard breaks from being virtually impossible to land against decent players, nor does it fix the problem with guard breaks needing to be easy to interrupt because of their instant-kill property.

There are fundamental issues with the way the game plays right now and a half-assed "fix" like that won't fix anything for long.

ARZVEL
02-26-2017, 07:24 AM
Delete or remove the hit-stun from Parry.

This move alone, along with the infinite combos that Conquerer, Warden, and Warlord have, make the game Blade Symphony 2.0. Haven't heard of Blade Symphony? There's a reason you haven't! :o

These factors alone make the most viable form of play hyper-passive only. I had my fair share of staring contests in which my opponent never attacked first and always tried to bait a parry in 1v1 to boot!

Also, to mention the obvious here, the p2p makes reacting to this hyper-boring meta even more intolerable.

Long story short, this game is Blade Symphony, so go ahead and buy it from steam to get the same exact experience!

It's only $5!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are BAD AS SHT,AND WORST YOU ARE PRETENDING TO INSULT GOOD PLAYERS. I attack first allways, it is the best way to test a new oponent. If you parry, i know im in front of an experienced player and probably loose, if you runs and attacks me to at start, I know that you do not know how to play againts a WARLORD. And I am aggressive as fk, i like to beat crying ladies like you. And I have lost much times to. Like everybody. I hate the crying ones like your self.
Get out of here,if you are not a skilled player your "experience" will be lame. just do not insult the ones that are good at this, your commnets are pointless.

Gubermensch
02-26-2017, 07:24 AM
Chip damage does not help prevent parries from being the #1 most optimal action at all times, nor does it stop guard breaks from being virtually impossible to land against decent players, nor does it fix the problem with guard breaks needing to be easy to interrupt because of their instant-kill property.

There are fundamental issues with the way the game plays right now and a half-assed "fix" like that won't fix anything for long.

Yes it does. Think this through. An attack/ feint is substantially more threatening with chip damage in play, which in turn encourages parrying, and feinting parrying, which in turn opens up feint punishes.

Currently a player can reduce the game to blocking, counter guard breaking, and looking for one attack to parry. This is the meta. Chip damage changes everything.

Guard breaking isnt an insta-kill dude what are you talking about? Though I'd agree with a smaller counter gb window to raise the skill ceiling.

GenLiu
02-26-2017, 12:47 PM
errrrrr....Please no chip damage in a weapon based game. When it makes sense in a game where people fight with their bare hands (because it actually hurts to block an attack with your own limbs) it doesn't make any in a game with words and shields.

If you really want to give offense more room the best way to do it imo is to fasten the game in general and reduce the block and parry windows.

Gurkburk92
02-26-2017, 01:39 PM
errrrrr....Please no chip damage in a weapon based game. When it makes sense in a game where people fight with their bare hands (because it actually hurts to block an attack with your own limbs) it doesn't make any in a game with words and shields.

If you really want to give offense more room the best way to do it imo is to fasten the game in general and reduce the block and parry windows.

There are many things in this game which does not make sense. Chip damage would be the least problem. Chip damage is needed in this game. There''s no other way to fix without majorly breaking something else in the process.

Felis_Menari
02-26-2017, 01:55 PM
There are many things in this game which does not make sense. Chip damage would be the least problem. Chip damage is needed in this game. There''s no other way to fix without majorly breaking something else in the process.

Adding chip damage to light attacks would require more than just the tweak to make that work. To make it believable, we would need new light attack blocking animations for all characters. As it currently stands, each blocked light attack looks like it is handily defended, with no possible ability to cause harm.

lulbringer1337
02-26-2017, 01:58 PM
errrrrr....Please no chip damage in a weapon based game. When it makes sense in a game where people fight with their bare hands (because it actually hurts to block an attack with your own limbs) it doesn't make any in a game with words and shields.

If you really want to give offense more room the best way to do it imo is to fasten the game in general and reduce the block and parry windows.

Theres already chip dmg in the game...just barely noticeable. I don't think it is ever a good idea to give up balance for realism in a game.Also, is it not realistic that weapons get chipped in battle? If you really want to go the realism route, sure have weapon durability that goes down when u block. Once u reach zero your weapon breaks and u cant attack anymore lol.

But srsly, just up the chip dmg on heavy atks (light atks debatable"). Most importantly, get rid of using feint to parry attacks. If you go for a parry and the opponent feints, you should be punished for it. This way you either actually take a risk going for a parry or play safe with just blocking and sacrificing a bit of health. I am not gonna take gb into account cause lets be real, come next patch I would be amazed if anyone still gets grabbed. They can just keep that for punishing or whatever. GB is gonna be a nightmare to balance taking into account how punishing it is for new players + hazards and ofc lol warlords + hazards. After that, they can start nerfing mixups of certain characters. Every character should be able to fight one another at the most basic level without absurdly fast atks or gimmicks to break defense.

NiceBoatUS
02-26-2017, 02:07 PM
After that, they can start nerfing mixups of certain characters. Every character should be able to fight one another at the most basic level without absurdly fast atks or gimmicks to break defense.

... so every duel becomes exclusively about one fast poke and one fast zone attack? Why would you even suggest such a thing? It'd be awful. This game needs more mixups, not less. The options are already too limited and the neutral game is definitely the worst part of the overall experience.

lulbringer1337
02-26-2017, 02:23 PM
... so every duel becomes exclusively about one fast poke and one fast zone attack? Why would you even suggest such a thing? It'd be awful. This game needs more mixups, not less. The options are already too limited and the neutral game is definitely the worst part of the overall experience.

Umm... did u just quote 2 sentences of mine and not even read it? I literally just said "without absurdly fast atks " and your first response just ignored it. I suggested it to give characters without strong mixups a way to deal with turtling. You really think ubisoft is gonna go back and give the all the other classes warden/warlord level mixups? The only reason options are so limited is because parrying with feints is extremely low risk vs high reward. They can start balancing that risk vs reward by removing the feint os parry. But ofc people can still sit there and turtle cause parrying becomes risky, which is where the chip dmg comes into play. Honestly, I am just trying to throw out realistic changes that can be made without an overhaul of the system or completely redesigning characters cause they probably won't do that.

NiceBoatUS
02-26-2017, 03:19 PM
Umm... did u just quote 2 sentences of mine and not even read it? I literally just said "without absurdly fast atks " and your first response just ignored it. I suggested it to give characters without strong mixups a way to deal with turtling. You really think ubisoft is gonna go back and give the all the other classes warden/warlord level mixups? The only reason options are so limited is because parrying with feints is extremely low risk vs high reward. They can start balancing that risk vs reward by removing the feint os parry. But ofc people can still sit there and turtle cause parrying becomes risky, which is where the chip dmg comes into play. Honestly, I am just trying to throw out realistic changes that can be made without an overhaul of the system or completely redesigning characters cause they probably won't do that.

What you don't seem to realize is the fact that almost all characters seem to have those "absurdly fast attacks" and that they aren't really all that fast. Furthermore, more characters have "Warden level mixups" but they either haven't been explored or the characters are considered extremely underpowered (Valk, Lawbringer). You remove those mixups instead of bringing the underdogs up to speed, you destroy the identity of those classes. Your solution is basically "axe everything, let's stick to poking and some chip damage here and there". That'd make for some absolutelly abhorrent gameplay, way worse than what we have now.

I mean, just look at what they did to Warlord by removing the grab cancel. The class could've been overpowered, yes, but now it's still overpowered and boring, at least compared to what it used to be - fewer options, less outplays, less yomi layers.

For Honor is in an extremely volatile state right now. It's struggling to establish itself as a serious fighting game. Some mechanics (like running away on some maps) are literally obviously broken and need a fix ASAP before we have a cash tournament with people running away forcing a tie every time they drop below 50% HP. If it gets kicked in the teeth with awful changes that make for even more boring gameplay, it's literally guaranteed to turn into a downright flop. So I really hope that whatever the devs do, it makes the game more complex instead of dumbing it down. The potential is there, but there are so many people pushing for stupid, simple-minded changes (all the cringe-worthy threads about nerfing mixups or dodges) that it really is possible for FH to turn into a trainwreck that no competitive player will ever want to touch. And we don't want that, right?

EnderAtreides
02-26-2017, 06:03 PM
Again, Guard Break is supposed to be the counter to a 100% defense strategy. Currently it's useless at high level because it can be 100% counter guard broken on reaction. If Guard Break actually does something beyond hoping they fail to counter, then you'll suddenly have a dynamic game that rewards being at least a little offensive.

The simple version of the resulting chart would be Block/Parry > Attack > Guard Break > Block/Parry. I'm not saying that it alone would make the game perfect, but it would at least give offense a tool against someone 100% defending. I propose that the easiest effect to add to GB's to make them effective would be a stamina drain - draining more defender stamina than attacker stamina even if countered.

twitch-PogoPoro
02-26-2017, 06:34 PM
I cant fix the matchmaking, so meeting inexperienced players are a really shame , not only for me but for them aswell because im ruining their game experince. I still think that turteling is a problem in for honor, right now i meet way to many warden player who are turteling/ top light zone attack spam. But honestly if they want to play like that thats fine with me.

lulbringer1337
02-26-2017, 07:40 PM
What you don't seem to realize is the fact that almost all characters seem to have those "absurdly fast attacks" and that they aren't really all that fast. Furthermore, more characters have "Warden level mixups" but they either haven't been explored or the characters are considered extremely underpowered (Valk, Lawbringer). You remove those mixups instead of bringing the underdogs up to speed, you destroy the identity of those classes. Your solution is basically "axe everything, let's stick to poking and some chip damage here and there". That'd make for some absolutelly abhorrent gameplay, way worse than what we have now.

There are only 3 characters with sub 15f atks warden,orochi, and pk, how you reached the almost all chars have that I have no idea. Warden level mixups - probably warlord,lb, valk and sure maybe 1-2 characters with undiscovered tech but thats still like half the cast. This stuff is not the point of my post, we can stop arguing about it.

You seem to be hooked on the idea of more mixups and thats fine. I also enjoy mixup characters, but the game is broken on a fundamental level. Do we want a game where characters can only be competitive if they have SF4 Akuma or Viper mixups? Where is the variety in that when you lack competitive characters focused on more fundamental or basic gameplay? There is no point building on top of a foundation that is not already solid. My commment about nerfing mixups of characters was an afterthought. Whether they nerf or buff others doesnt matter to me, but it should come after they fix the basics.

Now to the main points that you don't address in your posts towards me. I already stated that problems are parry and blocking. Parrying at the moment is way too low risk. Reading some of your past post, we seem to agree on that by nerfing the feint os. Blocking has literally no downside and how to fix it is where we disagree (chip dmg change vs gb change). You suggested making gb like traditional fighting games where u have to anticipate/predict it. That would be fine if hazards weren't a thing in this game. I am sure you're aware that like 70% of the dueling areas are hazards. In a play to win situation, is there any reason not to just pick warlord and environmental kill all game with unreactable gbs? I just feel gb balancing is going to be way too hard without going into the extremes of either end.

TLDR: Can we focus on layer 1 yomis all characters have access to before we worry about layer 2 3 or 4? AKA focus on jump ins, footsies, throws, overhead balancing before we worry about frametraps, vortexing, unblockable setups, triple OS on jumpins?

GenLiu
02-26-2017, 07:51 PM
There are many things in this game which does not make sense. Chip damage would be the least problem. Chip damage is needed in this game. There''s no other way to fix without majorly breaking something else in the process.


Theres already chip dmg in the game...just barely noticeable. I don't think it is ever a good idea to give up balance for realism in a game.Also, is it not realistic that weapons get chipped in battle? If you really want to go the realism route, sure have weapon durability that goes down when u block. Once u reach zero your weapon breaks and u cant attack anymore lol.

But srsly, just up the chip dmg on heavy atks (light atks debatable"). Most importantly, get rid of using feint to parry attacks. If you go for a parry and the opponent feints, you should be punished for it. This way you either actually take a risk going for a parry or play safe with just blocking and sacrificing a bit of health. I am not gonna take gb into account cause lets be real, come next patch I would be amazed if anyone still gets grabbed. They can just keep that for punishing or whatever. GB is gonna be a nightmare to balance taking into account how punishing it is for new players + hazards and ofc lol warlords + hazards. After that, they can start nerfing mixups of certain characters. Every character should be able to fight one another at the most basic level without absurdly fast atks or gimmicks to break defense.

I'm agree with you guys and I know that there is already chip damage of some sort but I think going this route is just unnecessary and will kinda break the mood of the game, making it closer to a regular fighting game and less unic.
As I previously said, I love the fact that this game rewards defense other offense because it's just different from most other fighting games that favored aggressive play.

Now, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to give more room for offense if the dev find it necessary but chip damage would be the lazy way of doing it, this game definitely don't need that.

Besides what seem to be the problem is the parry and chip damage are not the solution for that kind of mechanic.

There is so many ways to make offense stronger without taking this route (as I said, increasing the speed of the game, reducing the window for blocking or parrying...).

Another way of making offensive play strong without affecting the game too much would be to give different effect to parries depending on which attack it lands, just like in SF3.3).
So for example you could make some move "resistant" to parry (most light attacks and even some strong attacks for characters who need then to develop their game properly like the Raider). Of course not all of the attacks but for example the first R2 of the Raider could be parry resistant for instance.

Making parry significantly more difficult to do during block string could also be a good idea.

LostAugur
02-26-2017, 07:52 PM
Why not just increase block damage? Takes care of the block problem, and leaves you with dodging or parrying instead, both of which cost stamina; and if you're exhausted, you can't option select a parry-feint, so it's a coin toss on whether you want to block or attempt a parry and potentially get punished hard.


Edit: didn't realize that this had just been suggested. It's an obvious fix for such a glaring issue. The chip damage doesn't even have to be increased that much, just enough so that you can't be a turtle and tie a game. They could easily do testing, make it so that if the players are engaged for 85, or so, percent of the match and one player is blocking everything and the other is just light attacking, the latter will kill the opponent before time is up.

Zyrusticae
02-26-2017, 08:05 PM
Again, making guard breaks more difficult to tech would be perfectly fine if they made environmental kills impossible on non-exhausted opponents.

Exhaustion as it is hardly means anything anyway - making exhaustion a prerequisite to environmental kills would certainly go a long way to fixing that.

NiceBoatUS
02-26-2017, 08:32 PM
There are only 3 characters with sub 15f atks warden,orochi, and pk, how you reached the almost all chars have that I have no idea. Warden level mixups - probably warlord,lb, valk and sure maybe 1-2 characters with undiscovered tech but thats still like half the cast. This stuff is not the point of my post, we can stop arguing about it.

I was talking about 15f attacks, because Warden's overhead is 15f and apparently that's considered "very fast". Almost every character has something like that. There's also characters that have tremendous reach on top of that. I'm not inherently against poking, but if there's nothing more than that, the game simply isn't worth playing.


You seem to be hooked on the idea of more mixups and thats fine. I also enjoy mixup characters, but the game is broken on a fundamental level. Do we want a game where characters can only be competitive if they have SF4 Akuma or Viper mixups? Where is the variety in that when you lack competitive characters focused on more fundamental or basic gameplay? There is no point building on top of a foundation that is not already solid. My commment about nerfing mixups of characters was an afterthought. Whether they nerf or buff others doesnt matter to me, but it should come after they fix the basics.

I'm not really "hooked" on that, some of the characters are essentially all about footsies (PK, Orochi), we even have a rather healthy zoning character (Nobushi). I think the designs are fine and shouldn't really be touched, it's the core gameplay that's problematic. So we kind of agree here.


Now to the main points that you don't address in your posts towards me. I already stated that problems are parry and blocking. Parrying at the moment is way too low risk. Reading some of your past post, we seem to agree on that by nerfing the feint os. Blocking has literally no downside and how to fix it is where we disagree (chip dmg change vs gb change). You suggested making gb like traditional fighting games where u have to anticipate/predict it. That would be fine if hazards weren't a thing in this game. I am sure you're aware that like 70% of the dueling areas are hazards. In a play to win situation, is there any reason not to just pick warlord and environmental kill all game with unreactable gbs? I just feel gb balancing is going to be way too hard without going into the extremes of either end.

You might have a point. I'm not even inherently against buffing chip damage a lot. It's a sound idea that doesn't really wreck the entire structure of the game.


TLDR: Can we focus on layer 1 yomis all characters have access to before we worry about layer 2 3 or 4? AKA focus on jump ins, footsies, throws, overhead balancing before we worry about frametraps, vortexing, unblockable setups, triple OS on jumpins?

That's where we disagree... or maybe there's been a misunderstanding, since you mentioned that your mixup comment is just an afterthought. Yes, we should focus on layer 1, because that's where the problems are. The conceptual framework and deeper yomi layers are fine or almost fine. So let's fix the layer 1 issues without bringing down the entire structure in the process. Cause if we take that approach, we might end up with the basics finally working fine and no deeper game to back them up. Would you play that? Would I?

And you know, that's not an unrealistic outcome if you consider how modern games are patched. We really might get a patch that fixes all of the issues and butchers every advanced mechanic based on scrub whine. The last thing we need is seasoned fighting game players calling for mixup nerfs and oversimplified gameplay due to basic framework ******** that simply has to be fixed, even when it's just an afterthought. I hope you understand where I'm coming from, because I think I see your point now and I think we agree, it's just that we both didn't communicate what we meant properly.

LostAugur
02-26-2017, 09:54 PM
Or, why not more stamina damage on block; that makes sense. Then more chip damage on exhausted block. Problem solved, and its realistic.

lulbringer1337
02-27-2017, 12:02 AM
And you know, that's not an unrealistic outcome if you consider how modern games are patched. We really might get a patch that fixes all of the issues and butchers every advanced mechanic based on scrub whine. The last thing we need is seasoned fighting game players calling for mixup nerfs and oversimplified gameplay due to basic framework ******** that simply has to be fixed, even when it's just an afterthought. I hope you understand where I'm coming from, because I think I see your point now and I think we agree, it's just that we both didn't communicate what we meant properly.

Trust me, I am all for buffing the offensive options of the lower tier chars since a lot of them just need polishing on their follow ups or just one fast poke to give them decent mixups. But the priority should be in fixing the framework like you said. The mixups are there to add depth to the game, not to act as a crutch for a broken core as it currently does now. I sincerely hope that ubisoft understands this. Like christ dude, theres fking 3 post complaining about warden mixups that comes out everyday so I hope they take those with a grain of salt. I made that comment cause I have no idea where ubi wants this game to stand on the scale between casual and competitive. But yes, If I had a choice I would definitely like it to be more towards the competitive side. Also, I probably don't have to mention fk gear or give us a 4v4 no gear mode.

Edit: I guess I will further clarify my reasons for the changes I suggested.
Parry and Block attack dmg change Right now for parrying....I dunno is there really any thought into it? See red indicator parry os feint. Making it not option selectable would increase the amount of risk assessment the defender has to make. Do I have a solid read on my opponent to commit to the parry or play it safe, block and eat a bit of chip dmg? With people less likely to commit to parrying every atk, this opens up the ability to use heavies and combos for your mixup game. Cause right now that **** is borderline useless besides the once in the blue moon throwing of heavies and hope the other person chokes on their parry timing. With chip dmg, it ensures that one person cant just sit there and afk block/gbc all day, you're gonna eventually have to go on the offense if u don't want to die. Lastly, while feints become more powerful, they also become a bit riskier to toss out if you cant just instantly block/gbc so if u are the defender and read a feint u can punish him for it. I purposely avoided gb changes because making parrying riskier inherently reduces the amount of gb environment cheese. That can be the once in a blue moon catch your opponent off guard move instead of how heavy atks currently are. These changes allow at least a basic level of mixup made available to every character. Cause honestly the footsie neutral game in For Honor right now is basically a QTE game of reflex and not as much thinking as I would like it to be. Before I forget being out of stamina will become a lot more punishing with chip dmg as you have to take a gamble with parries if u want to alleviate the pressure from your opponents atks. Right now u just block/gbc when out of stamina. It is more of an inconvenience than a oh boy I fk'd up hard.

GenLiu
02-27-2017, 12:18 AM
Or, why not more stamina damage on block; that makes sense. Then more chip damage on exhausted block. Problem solved, and its realistic.

I actually like this idea a lot. It should be done accordingly depending on the character (so characters with low stamina don't get completely f#$%@ed) but it would work imo.

Maaci
02-27-2017, 12:49 AM
Hey havent read alot of posts here. Just got here. I see you want to change the core of the game.
Here are my suggestions, please give thoughts.

GENERAL CHANGES:
- Blocking should not interrupt attacks anymore. Not even for conquerer.
- Parrying should switch the initaitve. Meaning, you become the agressor if you parry someone while still 100% defendable.
- No chip damage
- All free damage gone

Sidestepping+attack should be removed/tweaked so it doesnt do "free" damage. Initiative as attacker should feel encouraged, right now alot of classes is auto-lose if you attack into the assassins for example, since they simple dodge and attack. So the game needs better interaction overall, this is one step in the right direction.

MORE CLASS SPECIFIC:
Could see myself removing dodge from some classes and to make them able to defend vs charge-attacks they simple defend with guardbreak button and feint button. Perhaps time them after one another or something~, point is its possibel to make them able to defend in other ways(i think).


Something i would think could be great, is if assassins could not feint with the normal button, instead the dodge mechanic makes them able to trick their opponent when they combo, in a faster way than normal. What i mean is, to feint, you interrupt your attack in current game. But when assassins would do it, they dont interrupt it they just change direction of their attack(not 100% fast) but still fast.



I could seemyself removing parry from all assassins and instead have deflection for them. While deflection does something unique for them.
First it interrupts the attacker, but still doesnt do free damage.
Second the assassins could have something unique for them.

For example, lets say berserker when he deflects, he moves around the enemy so he positions himself to his back. Now, to defend against this you simple press "alt"(target button)+"s"(backwards". This doesnt work in the game right now so ubisoft would have to fix that.
While deflection do something else for the other assassins.

I guess some other classes should have a different parry as well(meaning, it works different than in the general section).


Pretty sure defending against specific classes could still be to easy, but changing the combos for some and let the combos have more variation, unique attacks involved could fix that potential issue.

Would like to implement a new mechanic:
- Hold down the "left" mousebutton->release and something happens. Maybe an attack for some classes, can start a combo for others and so on.

Also with these changes(the class specific ones) there are more stuff to do, i will give an example:
Not PK, Not berserker but the third assassin, cant remember his name rigtht now.

You know when he "S" ->dodge->press mousebutton. That could be harder to parry for example and he should be able to change where to attack and not one spot. Or can he change spot already? Anyway he should in either way be able to change it while he charges as well.

Just an example. More class specific things like that and so on.

WITH ALL THESE CHANGES, EVERYTHING SHOULD BE able to BE DEFENDED 100%.

Thoughts?

lulbringer1337
02-27-2017, 01:15 AM
WITH ALL THESE CHANGES, EVERYTHING SHOULD BE able to BE DEFENDED 100%.

Thoughts?

Um... I think the problem people have with the game is that 95% of the things in the game can be defended at the higher level of play. I am not sure pushing it to 100% is moving in the right direction.

K Ill give a more thorough opinion of your post starting top to bottom with the game as is.
General: Not sure what to think on the no interruption on block. Would really buff pk and hurt conq more than it should. Ppl will still probably parry ur combos if u continue them. Parrying already kinda switches initiative since it removes stamina and puts u at frame advantage. Took me a while to notice there was chip dmg in the game when I first played so I doubt no chip dmg would change anything. Free dmg part is vague, but I am gonna assume no gb off parry or stuff like that. Then there would be no point risking a parry. They already lose stamina from attacking and gbing while u don't for blocking, so sure why not just sit there and wait for your turn.

Class specific: I would assume the heavies lose the dodge since you didn't specify and that would make the most sense. Uh I guess I'd just pick warlord if I know I am against a warden or other charge characters and remove all their mixups lol. Interesting idea but perhaps too punishing for charges. Then again if there is no free dmg, I don't know how it'd work out. They would all just be lawbringers shoving each other with no follow up. Next part basically describes canceling lights into zone atks "feature" right now. Think most people agree its not the greatest. Deflection loses pretty hard to feint gbs, not sure if removing parry from assassins is a good idea. Berserker deflection I would just park my butt in front of spikes or a ledge but not quite in throw range. If he deflects hes in a bad position and he cant parry with your previous change. Changing combo variations probably wouldn't do much as its very easy to just block in this game, aka look at berserker with his infinite combo. Holding mouse down for additional effects I can get behind, that would add more attack options. Yes I agree with orochi change to storm rush as its a very predictable parry/block and he already suffers from opening opponents up. Closing thought: How are you going to deal with turtles or people who wants to just stall the round timer out every round?

Maaci
02-27-2017, 01:20 AM
Um... I think the problem people have with the game is that 95% of the things in the game can be defended at the higher level of play. I am not sure pushing it to 100% is moving in the right direction.
What a **** post by you. Did you even read the post by me? Holy **** sir. Anyway i wont bait any further on posts like this.

Fuqbois
02-27-2017, 01:39 AM
Yeah turtling its anoying, some people just never attack first, feiting can do the job but after sometime they can't adapt the strat.

GregoryMcFlint
02-27-2017, 03:26 AM
I'm gay.

Gubermensch
02-27-2017, 05:07 AM
Meta Snapshot, 1v1 tournament today, Top 16 finals

Warden did absolutely nothing, reduced the game to waiting for an attack to parry from one direction. This strategy works against every class but Warlord, Warden, Shugoki and to a lesser extent Conqueror. Match resulted in 2 ties due to time running out. Warden ended up winning. See KingRichard's other matches from this tourney on his channel - the Warden initiated and maintained the passive play style (And won).

https://clips.twitch.tv/kingrichard15/AmusedGrasshopperRuleFive

See more of KingRichard @ https://www.twitch.tv/kingrichard15

SlinGnBulletS
02-27-2017, 09:13 AM
i've played against my fair share of these warden players abusing the mix up and just focusing on blocking. i mainwarlord so it was a bit of an annoyance. only way i won some of them was having to spam guardbreaks and headbutts. like i hate having to rely on one ability just to deal damage but damn it i want to win. chip damage needs to increase significantly so that they cant just sit and block for days or make it to where blocking actually drains stamina which actually makes alot of sense and was how dark souls was balanced as well.

GenLiu
02-27-2017, 10:25 AM
Meta Snapshot, 1v1 tournament today, Top 16 finals

Warden did absolutely nothing, reduced the game to waiting for an attack to parry from one direction. This strategy works against every class but Warlord, Warden, Shugoki and to a lesser extent Conqueror. Match resulted in 2 ties due to time running out. Warden ended up winning. See KingRichard's other matches from this tourney on his channel - the Warden initiated and maintained the passive play style (And won).

https://clips.twitch.tv/kingrichard15/AmusedGrasshopperRuleFive

See more of KingRichard @ https://www.twitch.tv/kingrichard15

Ironically, if you look at the rest of his vids some players manage to win by playing more aggressively.
As you said, 2 ties by playing too defensive...probably not the best way to do then.

The game is very defensive based but I personally love it's defensive aspect. This is much more skill testing that way but if the majority of people want the game to be more aggressive I think losing stamina over blocking is the right way to go.

Gubermensch
02-27-2017, 11:07 AM
@GenLiu That isn't ironic... of course aggressive players can and will win. They're playing the game how it was made to be played. Has nothing to do with advantage being found in a broken playstyle.

2 ties, 2 wins: does the job. The game should not play as shown in the clip. Stam has potential as the solution (But really doesn't address the problem, watch the clip again). I still like chip damage.

GenLiu
02-27-2017, 12:49 PM
@GenLiu That isn't ironic... of course aggressive players can and will win. They're playing the game how it was made to be played. Has nothing to do with advantage being found in a broken playstyle.

2 ties, 2 wins: does the job. The game should not play as shown in the clip. Stam has potential as the solution (But really doesn't address the problem, watch the clip again). I still like chip damage.
The problem with chip damage is that defense is only an issue at highest level of play. You have to respect less skilled players who are not good enough to block every incoming attacks. For honor isn't a game for top player it's a game for everyone.

What could be done though, is to make some change that will affect highest level of play. For example, you could make a system where if you press the button of each combo of your character at a pin point accurate timing, the attacks of your combos can't be parried (except for the last hit).
This is an idea of course, I'm not saying it's the solution but Ubi has to be clever by making the game still enjoyable for everyone without punishing players who are just decent at blocking but will take double punishment just because they take chip damage as well as damage from attacks they fail to block.

As soon as For honor starts to be played at high level and some top player are willing to make some tournament, the game enters into the category of potentially competitive game. However, the history of fighting games prove that the best game is a game easy to play but hard to master, For honor should remain like that and developers have to think about most advanced mechanics that helps players at highest level without affecting the core of the game.

What the game lack right now isn't a new core but more offensive options for competitive players. The game works perfectly well as it is but the learning curve simply needs to be improved so it doesn't end when you know how to block every attacks and tech most GB attempts.

NiceBoatUS
02-27-2017, 12:55 PM
The problem with chip damage is that defense is only an issue at highest level of play. You have to respect less skilled players who are not good enough to block every incoming attacks. For honor isn't a game for top player it's a game for everyone.

Excuse me, but what exactly would chip damage change when it comes to players who get hit by most attacks, or even 30% of them? Absolutely nothing, it'd be a really small part of the total damage they take. It'd be a change that'd impact high level play without making a huge difference in low level or even intermediate play.

Low level play = people keep getting hit by absolutely everything, intermediate play = people get hit by fast pokes they didn't predict and whenever they miss a parry.

GenLiu
02-27-2017, 01:07 PM
Excuse me, but what exactly would chip damage change when it comes to players who get hit by most attacks, or even 30% of them? Absolutely nothing, it'd be a really small part of the total damage they take. It'd be a change that'd impact high level play without making a huge difference in low level or even intermediate play.

Low level play = people keep getting hit by absolutely everything, intermediate play = people get hit by fast pokes they didn't predict and whenever they miss a parry.

Well, this is getting quiet complicated to argue because it all depends on how much chip damage you want to do while blocking. If you make them too low then they won't have much impact on highest level of play either, if they're too high they will affect intermediate players.

This is why I think chip damage wouldn't be anything but a nuisance, when implementing new offensive mechanics for highest level players would not only keep the game clean for everyone but will also make it more fun to play (because high learning curve games are just the most enjoyable game you can do imo).

NiceBoatUS
02-27-2017, 01:41 PM
To be honest, even at 50% it'd probably have a negligible impact on most fights. Like I said, casual players just spam R1 without understanding frame advantage - they don't use the block to mitigate the damage, they use it to start mashing back at their opponent. Intermediate players usually play the overhead/zone attack 50/50 or rely on bashes. In the case of the 50/50, they obviously won't attack into block, so everyone simply goes with the other option. The main difference between intermediate and advanced play is the fact that intermediate players are unable to block fast pokes, so contrary to popular belief most of this stuff simply goes in.

And I don't think anyone here is thinking about 50% chip. MK9 had about 20% chip and it was enough to make the high level meta extremely aggressive, with plenty of momentum swings. It was a great game not only to play, but also to spectate. Imagine how good For Honor would look if high level players were actually going at it instead of staring each other down.

GenLiu
02-27-2017, 04:07 PM
To be honest, even at 50% it'd probably have a negligible impact on most fights. Like I said, casual players just spam R1 without understanding frame advantage - they don't use the block to mitigate the damage, they use it to start mashing back at their opponent. Intermediate players usually play the overhead/zone attack 50/50 or rely on bashes. In the case of the 50/50, they obviously won't attack into block, so everyone simply goes with the other option. The main difference between intermediate and advanced play is the fact that intermediate players are unable to block fast pokes, so contrary to popular belief most of this stuff simply goes in.

And I don't think anyone here is thinking about 50% chip. MK9 had about 20% chip and it was enough to make the high level meta extremely aggressive, with plenty of momentum swings. It was a great game not only to play, but also to spectate. Imagine how good For Honor would look if high level players were actually going at it instead of staring each other down.
That's where our opinion diverge though. I don't want For honor to be "extremely aggressive" like MK9 for example. I really love the very defensive aspect of the game (for example I watched the tournament linked above and I found it amazing to watch) but obviously I entirely respect your opinion and the opinion of anyone here who're complaining about the game being too turtle focused.

I don't think I'm alone to like the game the way it is now though so I think it would be great to find a concensus between the two so that the game is less defensive but not too aggressive either. That's why I think that giving new offensive options/mechanics for high level player would make everyone happy rather than changing the core engine of the game as it currently is (which would disappoint players who like playing defensive).

Defending in For honor is not just about holding one button like in MK9, those peoples who see everything and block/tech pretty much everything are highly skilled, it's really hard to reach that defensive level and it would be a shame to punish them from being too talented.

Xanthus730
02-27-2017, 04:22 PM
Defending in For honor is not just about holding one button like in MK9, those peoples who see everything and block/tech pretty much everything are highly skilled, it's really hard to reach that defensive level and it would be a shame to punish them from being too talented.
I agree that people that reach that level are amazing and worthy of praise.

However, Ubisoft has stated they want to see For Honor become a competitive eSport. That won't work if the epitome of 'good play' is basically sitting there waiting for the opponent to attack.
Even if no one reaches the level of 100% defense, if you can hit a high enough level, and you know that your most damaging option is parry, why would you ever attack? Attacking means you won't be able to parry - and parry is your BEST move!

I'm fine with For Honor being a very defensive game, or even being somewhat 'slow' by fighting game standards. I just think that to get your best damaging play, you should be required to go on the offense.

I think parry's ability to completely stop and opponent AND remove a huge chunk of their stamina, AND negate all chip damage is a big enough bonus.
You don't need to add a free un-tech-able GB to that, or a guaranteed heavy attack combo.

In a WAY, I think defense should be stronger: ANY attack should be defensible, parry & deflect attacks included.
In a WAY, I think offense should be stronger: Attacking moves should always offer better reward (damage), than defensive moves. Taking the risk to attack first should be rewarded,

In ANOTHER way, I think defense should be weaker: parry & deflect shouldn't be able to be 100% of your strategy because they're the best moves in the game.
But, I don't think offense should be weaker. I can't really think of anyplace in the current game/meta save MAYBE shoulder charges/headbutts that are really 'too strong' right now, simply because everything has a counterplay, and in MOST cases, the counterplay is stronger than the play is.

GenLiu
02-27-2017, 06:27 PM
I agree that people that reach that level are amazing and worthy of praise.

I think parry's ability to completely stop and opponent AND remove a huge chunk of their stamina, AND negate all chip damage is a big enough bonus.
You don't need to add a free un-tech-able GB to that, or a guaranteed heavy attack combo..
I totally agree with that and it's why I think Ubi should fix GB asap so it works the way it should, meaning you can ONLY be GBed from a blocking position (or while being idle but nothing else).
This way you wouldn't be able to be GBed after a parry because you're in a staggering stance and it would be less frustrating for Kensei players (for example, because I'm sure some other characters have this issue) who get GBed in the middle of their attack.

Mr_Gallows
02-27-2017, 07:33 PM
The fact that defence leads directly to damage is a problem. Defence should be just that and attacks the only way to do damage.

When the game becomes centered around GB as a major damage source and much of the rest of gameplay are distractions to land a GB - then the game has a problem.

But GB isn't really the problem. The real problem is that GB is a vital trick to land heavy hits and that is a problem with the core system. If the core balance of attack and defence worked; GB, parry, deflect and dodge could be revamped and offence could be the only way to damage your opponent.

Doing a parry should not give free damage but simply shift initiative, so the defender is now on the offence.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1585011-Fixing-the-core-of-For-Honor