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View Full Version : Balance. From someone with over 50 hours across 4 playtests (counting this one).



randomjoe123
02-12-2017, 12:14 PM
Greetings!

The first thing I have to say is that I have very noticeably and meaningfully improved over every hour I have spent in the game so far. That is an incredible win for the team. You will have a successful game. Notably, I mostly restrained judgement on balance too much, because so much of the game really requires you to be good at it before you can understand it. The interactions between the characters are intricate, and the interactions between the various abilities (Dodge, Block, Parry, Feinting, various attacking, combos, special moves, super special snowflake stuff like hidden stance, etc) are also quite intricate.

Today I can't say I mastered feints, but finally was in an MMR range where they were required and meaningful and I feel like I have an understanding of that game now. In particular I was forced to do this because I learned that Raiders have no guaranteed heavies (None of the throws, even wall throws, will guarantee it, and GB doesn't guarantee side heavy like it does with every single other char in the game). After doing that for a while, I tinkered with Berserker, whom I played a great deal in a previous beta, but not against anyone good enough that feinting was correct. My parries are pretty good (100% heavies, low percentage lights. Maybe 10-20). My deflects are good when I am practicing them, but deflects are only key in certain matchups in my opinion, so I don't practice them super often. Dodges near perfect. GB tech rate probably 90ish%. Depends on how familiar I am with the matchup/animations. All of this is just for context.

I will disclaim one more time, it's really hard to talk about balance because everything is contextual and skill matters so much more than balance does. It's not until you get to the really high level (Which, admittedly, I might not even be at, but I think I am close enough to see it now) that power of chars is impacting outcome more than player skill.

That said, it just feels so much easier to kill people with Assassins. My skill and time played is roughly equivalent between Berserker and Raider (Lots) with 8+ hours of Conqueror/Warlord/Nobushi. When I play the conqueror I feel like I win with an average amount of work. When I play Raider.... I have to hustle for every win. It's very very tough when the only safe time you have to throw heavies is when your opponent is exhausted and you aren't. You have to work lights all day long, and play perfectly in order to win with Raider (in comparison with other chars). Berserker on the other hand, does a ton of damage, is super nimble, and his dodge mix ups are incredible. From neutral you can feint into a light attack, or you can feint into a dodge slash, or if you think they are on to you with the dodge slash you can dodge and then parry their counter to the slash you passed on. His mind games are crazy. Raider has his tap feint/dodge and dash/GB, but his capitalization on the GB is.... a light. His capitalization on the tap is... a blockable attack (assuming they can see through stun, which most good players will.)

The number of actual balance issues I see are these:

Warden zone attack feels like it just needs fixing. It tricks you by double signaling, it's insanely fast... it's just dumb.

Warden top light speed is not in and of itself busted, but as part of her kit it's really problematic. If you want to try and parry the top light, you have to immediately react. If they mix up by doing a heavy occasionally, you will parry early and they will just hit you. It's so fast that if you want to act on reaction, you can't wait long enough to make sure it's actually an attack (as opposed to a feint or heavy) before parrying. This functionally means that I think every char just has to only block top against Wardens. Feels a little rough that she has a safe zone to attack in, as long as she mixes up at least a tiny bit. I don't know exactly what I would change here.... just some comments.

Peacekeepers second light in her combo chain is unblockable. Her move set doesn't say it, and as the opponent it doesn't necessarily look that way, but test it. As long as she switches directions between the first and second light, the second light hits you. Don't know if this is intentional or not, but it's frustrating as hell to play against, because all the indicators tell you you could block/react/parry/dodge/whatever to this hit, but actually you can't.

That's the egregious stuff I know about.

Other stuff to look at is Warden/Conq bashes. They are both good, and really hard to dodge (although I know it is technically possible). I don't think Warden bash should be cancelable into GB, especially if Storm Rush/Warlord Head Butt/Everything else in the game that looks like that can't be.

Lastly I would say that Raider probably needs something. If he had better stamina drain to get the opponent exhausted, he could heavy more often. Or maybe make his side heavies fast enough that they land on a guard break. Kinda open to whatever (although stamina drain sounds more interesting to me personally). I would rather not gimmick 3 stunning taps in a row right now in order to exhaust someone so I can swing a heavy at them without planning on dying :). Buffing the stamina drain on the knee strike (When you stampede throw someone into a wall) might be good enough.

Thanks!

randomjoe123
02-12-2017, 12:26 PM
I probably should add Berserker: Throw into wall top heavy probably does a little bit too much damage. Compare to Peacekeeper grab and stab (which is about to be heavily nerfed). My observations are that wall top heavy is in the same ballpark or more than current PK grab and stab damage.

It does require a wall, but there are walls everywhere. Nerfing the amount of stun time at the wall just slightly so that only side heavies can hit would be reasonable, in my opinion. That means you don't have to wall slam someone, and the pace continues as it would normally with any other matchup (A GB happens, a side heavy happens, then you are either in offensive combo or neutral, depending on whether that char has a heavy combo starter or not).

Niamak
02-12-2017, 01:20 PM
You can cancel Storm Rush.

Good write up though.

Etpi_Ezrael
02-12-2017, 01:33 PM
Nice overall warpup. Tested the peacekeepr ligth attacks with my bro and have to tell you: the second one is blockable, even if the first connects (and you alter from side to side).
It has a good range though.

Gunner11Mendez
02-12-2017, 01:39 PM
Nice overall warpup. Tested the peacekeepr ligth attacks with my bro and have to tell you: the second one is blockable, even if the first connects (and you alter from side to side).
It has a good range though.

I second this guy.

Brave_Thunder
02-12-2017, 01:41 PM
Probably it's just me and my lack of experience with the game,but I feel that with Pk is hard to fight a heavy,mainly because she lacks range.While with orochi I manage to beat a warden/conqueror,with her i feel too weak.Granted I don't spam lights or Gb, I prefer to wait for an attack,parry it and then hit with my heavyes,but many times after a parry they are too far away,and my dash attack is too predictable to be usefull.
They need to fix the spam,everyone should be able to block attacks if they have the reaction time to do so.But aside that...I don't see how play assassins is easyer than play heavyes.

LordKaterchen
02-12-2017, 02:15 PM
Good writeup :)

I am playing in the same ballpark both from an MMR standpoint and hours played and I find nothing in your post that I would disagree with.
In particular Raider's inability to use heavies except for staminadrained opponents feels crippling to play and the raider overall bit weak for it (despite his ability take someone up, run a lap around the map and then throw them into a pit xD). And I don't even really play Raider, I only play Kensei and Conq decently. But a friend of mine has a raider for main and is fighting the exact same issues. Reduced to lights and GBs unless the enemy makes a big mistake.

I also cannot tell you how much I appreciate the calm non-agressive tone of your post. Not every ...... balance-related thread reads that way, as you might know ^.^

Godsplitter1991
02-12-2017, 02:39 PM
After playing conqueror for hours one end, it has gotten to a point where I don't lose matches. One slip on the guy I'm fighting and he's at the mercy of the shield slam infinite. I'm not supporting this at all, I honestly think the conqueror is just too safe to pump out all the damage he does with all that defense. At first I thought i was just a god, then when I played as berserker and fought conqueror i realized how much of a pain he is.

He is a HARD counter to a berserker. The fight is a complete snore fest. Literally just dodge and light attack and pray he fails to stop a guard break so I can actually get a heavy. Also, the berserkers stagger animation seems way too long. Something I could easily block with a conqueror is impossible as a berserker. Other than that everything is alright for the most part. I agree on the raider not being able to land heavies.

TTVPappusGaming
02-12-2017, 02:42 PM
The raider doesnt have more problems getting a heavy in compared to any other class. Nobody gets a heavy in period. Now if we are talking punish, then with a wall the raider does get a heavy in.

The real problem of the raider though is the stunning tap. It always is a top block which is unique to all other sidestep-attacks. Additionally it is rather easy to react to and counts as a light in terms of parry punish. Which translates into -> Enemy can get any punish he wants after he parries it (often even after just evading it).

He doesnt have a zoneattack compared to warden, warlord, peacekeeper, nobushi etc etc since that is his ultra-slow unblockable. That it itself isn't a problem because it has great value in a 2vs1 situation, but combined with the inability to use the sidestep-attack on anything besides enemy unblockables (miiiiisaro) it forces you to play defense like nobody else.

On many parries you get a heavy in aswell, but as always the rule is: Parry a light -> get whatever parry a heavy -> you get a light.

However the stunning tap stamina exhaustion is nothing to sniff at.

The raider is meant to carry you to an obstacle and then wall pressure you. However that is truly difficult in the current state of the run away meta.

TTVPappusGaming
02-12-2017, 02:43 PM
After playing conqueror for hours one end, it has gotten to a point where I don't lose matches. One slip on the guy I'm fighting and he's at the mercy of the shield slam infinite. I'm not supporting this at all, I honestly think the conqueror is just too safe to pump out all the damage he does with all that defense. At first I thought i was just a god, then when I played as berserker and fought conqueror i realized how much of a pain he is.

He is a HARD counter to a berserker. The fight is a complete snore fest. Literally just dodge and light attack and pray he fails to stop a guard break so I can actually get a heavy. Also, the berserkers stagger animation seems way too long. Something I could easily block with a conqueror is impossible as a berserker. Other than that everything is alright for the most part. I agree on the raider not being able to land heavies.

There is no shieldslam infinite outside of revenge.

Godsplitter1991
02-12-2017, 02:48 PM
Yeah I know, what I meant to say was if he shield slams you into a wall he can land 2 more shield slams with heavies in between. When that happens you literally have nothing to answer for. Just get dazed all day and die

GewaltSam
02-12-2017, 02:51 PM
When I read the thread title, I was totally expecting something like "after 50 hours of playing: That character is way too stronk. Reduce dmg by 50% and speed by a third. Take out revenge, it's a bad mechanic. ..."
But I have to say, very nice write-up, and I'm jealous that you got a better grip on the game after 50 than me after a good 100 ;)
By the way, Raider and Berserker player here, too. Shoutout to the Underdogs, Bro!

RaidoKnight
02-12-2017, 03:15 PM
Peacekeepers second light in her combo chain is unblockable. Her move set doesn't say it, and as the opponent it doesn't necessarily look that way, but test it. As long as she switches directions between the first and second light, the second light hits you

Thanks!

This is not even true... Maybe it's because of the server issues, I can block the 2nd hit every time (well not always, but it's not unblockable)

Knight_Raime
02-12-2017, 03:52 PM
60 hours here. (5 from closed 55 from open.) Only thing I agree on is your raider points.
Raider (from what i've seen) is very hard to play with and pretty weak compared to everyone else.
Warden charge cancel I agree with. Unblockables in general shouldn't be cancelable (save kensei and raider because they are slow enough to be parried on reaction by even a novice like me.)

"Peacekeepers second light in her combo chain is unblockable..." Not true. do it with my conq more often than not.

Warden zone attack is fine. There are other attacks that look like they come from one direction but come from another. Orochi has a few. it's just something you need to learn.

Warden is about that upper hit game. to be fair so is orochi. a lot of characters have their own unique "thing" you basically just don't go for over heads when fighting her and guard up if needed. Look at it this way. Since you know both will try to do mainly upper hits you should be able to learn their patterns easier.

As a conq "main" The shield bash is punishable and you can escape it. assassins have the dash distance and speed. Nobushi has the dash distance and speed. but she also can hidden stance to avoid it and punish you. If you are a vanguard you're best bet is to parry my attacks and GB me.

storm rush is cancelable into a GB. The warlord headbutt used to be cancelable but that was patched out. Think the only reason you can even cancel wardens is because it's got a slow enough wind up to reasonably react to. where as the warlord headbutt isn't.

Knight_Raime
02-12-2017, 03:59 PM
After playing conqueror for hours one end, it has gotten to a point where I don't lose matches. One slip on the guy I'm fighting and he's at the mercy of the shield slam infinite. I'm not supporting this at all, I honestly think the conqueror is just too safe to pump out all the damage he does with all that defense. At first I thought i was just a god, then when I played as berserker and fought conqueror i realized how much of a pain he is.

He is a HARD counter to a berserker. The fight is a complete snore fest. Literally just dodge and light attack and pray he fails to stop a guard break so I can actually get a heavy. Also, the berserkers stagger animation seems way too long. Something I could easily block with a conqueror is impossible as a berserker. Other than that everything is alright for the most part. I agree on the raider not being able to land heavies.


Comboing shield bash with a heavy to do that chain until you run out of stamina while strong isn't unbeatable. Nobushi has the ability to hidden stance to avoid the bash and she could then attack or parry your next heavy for a GB and punish you. assassins can also dodge away from the bash easily. Really grabs are the conq's weakness. and if the player isn't patient.

If a person is good enough at parrying they can easily stop your combo as well. and since his attacks are slow and easily read it's not hard to do. You probably were not fighting top players. I did watch one match up in the top tier where the conq was able to tech every grab attempt and block every attack that the guy tried to throw out after dashing to avoid the bash. but the guy was on a peace keeper. Which is a bad matchup against the conq.

Nobushi and berzerker are the 2 best people against him. Berzerker mainly because of all the mix up potential due to being able to feint lights and heavies and being able to easily chain into infins. but it requires a LOT of brain work and a lot of controller work.

GewaltSam
02-12-2017, 06:00 PM
To the Conqueror shield slam - heavy chain: Simple dodge. Pretty easy actually.
You guys should really find a mate for sparring and trying mechanics (Custom match - no round time - no damage. Try it!). If you can't handle something in particular, you probably haven't found out how to handle it - ESPECIALLY if you haven't even 50 hours of For Honor under your belt.

At the moment, most people are very new to the game and don't know Jack about mechanics and counters. I am far from being a really good player, although I'd say through enough practice, I'm decent in the present meta (got something like 70+% win for dominion and deathmatch, less for duels though, because I try a lot and look for better opponents). And when I am able to do or counter things on my level of play that people complain about in a dozen of different threads, I can only guess that those people don't realize how green they really are in this game.

randomjoe123
02-12-2017, 08:10 PM
Given the responses, It sounds like I was wrong about PK second hit. I tested it some, but not significantly. Sounds like my data was incomplete.

Storm rush is cancelable, but it used to be cancelable mid dash. So you could use it to close and then GB as they go for the parry. If the warden goes for a shoulder bash the *only* thing the defending player can do is dodge. If they dodge, the warden just cancels and GB. That means the shoulder bash is totally unpunishable, and is guaranteed to gain value, unlike literally every other move in the game.

The issue with Warden zone attack is that it activates from two directions *faster* than a stance switch happens. So they will see one zone, shift to it, and be guaranteed to get hit by the other side. You have to practice *not* instantly reacting to a red indicator so that you can make sure of where it's coming in before you switch stance. I do not think this is good gameplay, personally. It would be slightly less bad if it didn't double tap indicators, because it would still be stupidly fast for no reason, but at least it wouldn't *also* trick you.

The Warden top light issue has more to do with the fact that you can't really react/punish. Yes you know the warden is going to play a top game, yes you know/learn their rhythms pretty quickly... but you can't really punish them. As I said, I might just be bad, but the attack doesn't give you enough time to read it. You have to parry so early to catch a top light, that if it isn't a top light you get nailed by the heavy.... and you can't wait long enough to make sure it's a light. That means that you have to just block, and gives them a safe attack zone. Parrying is risk/reward in that scenario, rather than the safe value it is in basically every other parry situation. And yes, I have parried Warden top light any number of times :).

Niamak
02-13-2017, 10:37 AM
Warden has the only vortex in the game with shoulder bash combo cuz why not \_(ツ)_/

TheMalakith
02-13-2017, 10:59 AM
Given the responses, It sounds like I was wrong about PK second hit. I tested it some, but not significantly. Sounds like my data was incomplete.

Storm rush is cancelable, but it used to be cancelable mid dash. So you could use it to close and then GB as they go for the parry. If the warden goes for a shoulder bash the *only* thing the defending player can do is dodge. If they dodge, the warden just cancels and GB. That means the shoulder bash is totally unpunishable, and is guaranteed to gain value, unlike literally every other move in the game.

The issue with Warden zone attack is that it activates from two directions *faster* than a stance switch happens. So they will see one zone, shift to it, and be guaranteed to get hit by the other side. You have to practice *not* instantly reacting to a red indicator so that you can make sure of where it's coming in before you switch stance. I do not think this is good gameplay, personally. It would be slightly less bad if it didn't double tap indicators, because it would still be stupidly fast for no reason, but at least it wouldn't *also* trick you.

The Warden top light issue has more to do with the fact that you can't really react/punish. Yes you know the warden is going to play a top game, yes you know/learn their rhythms pretty quickly... but you can't really punish them. As I said, I might just be bad, but the attack doesn't give you enough time to read it. You have to parry so early to catch a top light, that if it isn't a top light you get nailed by the heavy.... and you can't wait long enough to make sure it's a light. That means that you have to just block, and gives them a safe attack zone. Parrying is risk/reward in that scenario, rather than the safe value it is in basically every other parry situation. And yes, I have parried Warden top light any number of times :).

Wardens zone attack always comes from his right hand, so your left. It's the only fast attack he can use as a surprise and it costs half his stamina. I don't think this one needs to be changed.

As for the light overhead, you can actually block it quite easily. You just needs to watch out for a heavy overhead faint, because if he parries it you'll take a lot of damage. Warden actually seems really balanced to me. His lack of combos makes him pretty tough to play offensively on higher levels.

To_Obi
02-13-2017, 11:07 AM
I really hope dev's are aware of how bad Raider is. As long as you land heavy attacks he is fine... So he is basicly just a noob stomper.

His knee to face move looks badass... So it should deal some DAMAGE!!
Also, since Raiders are 100% depended on light attack damage, why not apply the unblockable damage buff mechanic to his light attack? The next combo light attack should deal increased damage.

DrExtrem
02-13-2017, 12:01 PM
The wardens zone attack is indeed fast but also very expensive. The damage it deals is not very high though. I thing of it as a "oh crap!"- button, to interrupt unblockables. Remember, that the warden sidesteps are really weak and that they basically have to roll away to get out of harms way - this costs stamina.

The upper light attack is indeed very fast and should be blocked. Imvho, parry should not be the answer to every attack.

I agree on the cancelable shoulder charge. It really is annoying and a bit unfair.

On the hand, the warden lacks certain tools, because of the limited moveset. I think, the warden needs a blinding, weakening or disorienting attack, like a pommel/crossguard strike to the head. This should be added, to even out the needed adjustment to the shoulder charge.

Vikko2
02-13-2017, 12:27 PM
The wardens zone attack is indeed fast but also very expensive. The damage it deals is not very high though. I thing of it as a "oh crap!"- button, to interrupt unblockables. Remember, that the warden sidesteps are really weak and that they basically have to roll away to get out of harms way - this costs stamina.

The upper light attack is indeed very fast and should be blocked. Imvho, parry should not be the answer to every attack.

I agree on the cancelable shoulder charge. It really is annoying and a bit unfair.

On the hand, the warden lacks certain tools, because of the limited moveset. I think, the warden needs a blinding, weakening or disorienting attack, like a pommel/crossguard strike to the head. This should be added, to even out the needed adjustment to the shoulder charge.

This I can agree with so very much. There are a lot of complaints about the zone attack, but the damage isn't very high and it uses a ton of stamina to perform. It helps counters enemies who have managed to perfect reaction-based actions like parrying/deflecting/GBcountering and keeps people like that on their toes instead. I haven't fought many other Wardens who use it (for some reason) and didn't notice the double signalling- that sounds pretty unfair, but just that. Simply block left and you'll be fine against it. Blocking left will deter a Warden from using it because of the stamina cost.

I've found that people block my overhead lights just fine. Don't try to parry the overhead, and if anything, block it then go for a parry if they do it again or if they change direction to one of their slower attacks. It's like asking to be able to parry all of Orochi's attacks consistently. If I can't react fast enough to parry, I just don't bother and wait for a potential second attack after the block. No harm in that.

I don't like this mentality that parrying should be possible to every attack, especially when it applies to a light attack that generally has enough time to be blocked normally. I do agree it's pretty darn fast though, but I found that Kensei have generally faster light attacks then the Warden does and nobody complains about that (must just be me, those lights alone could beat me). Am I really the only one who has trouble with how fast Kensei light attacks are?

I agree 100% with the cancellable shoulder charge being unfair. If I were to change it, the cancel window would be smaller and should only be cancellable into Guard Break and not back to nothing. This way, you can't just do it and stop to scare people, and you'd have to decide to cancel into Guard Break before you can see what you opponent is going to do and commit to whatever happens- instead of being able to see what their opponent's going to do before deciding.

I'm glad you mentioned the step and limited moveset, because I think a lot of people calling 'OP Warden' are forgetting that Warden have a weak step, and on top of that are relatively predictable aside from the unfair shoulder charge cancel shenanigans which I do have a problem with.

samsy19
02-13-2017, 05:20 PM
The raider doesnt have more problems getting a heavy in compared to any other class. Nobody gets a heavy in period. Now if we are talking punish, then with a wall the raider does get a heavy in.

No. The raider doesn't get a free heavy if they are pushed into a wall, the opponent still has enough time to block even if they are out of stamina

He also can not get a heavy in after a parry, it's too slow.

Plus, Nobody gets a heavy in period? Have you played against Oroichi, bezerker, peacekeeper, warlord or warden at all? They can all get free heavy attacks in after guardbreaking and guardbreaking can be done for free after parrying.

RatedChaotic
02-13-2017, 05:39 PM
Every thread that i have read coming from someone claiming they have 30 plus hours or more in the game, assume they know everything. But when there is wrong info in their post. All you recieve from me is...good job you can play alot.

droper66
02-13-2017, 06:00 PM
My problem with assassins is they sometimes seem like quick attack spammers that take advantage of others being slower attack and disabling them with spamming. I think their second and third attack should have no effect on the attacked players swing and they should be forced to react rather than stand in front of you spamming away.

RoosterIlluzion
02-13-2017, 06:26 PM
Haha, no, the warden doesn't need any tweaking. The warden is the simplest fighter to pick up and they're not over/under powered, yet they're devastatingly good fighters in the right hands.
I have play time with all three factions as well, and feel the knights have the best balance between classes. Vikings are a close second, and all samurai (Assassins stab also) simply do too much damage for their movement speed. I believe the Orochi, Assassin, and Berserker should absolutely be the fastest classes because they have the lightest weapons and very little armor, but should also have a slight decrease in damage to balance this advantage.

RoosterIlluzion
02-13-2017, 06:34 PM
Knee to face should damage? Isn't that his throw move after a GB? Everyone's throw does zero damage.

DrExtrem
02-13-2017, 07:40 PM
That's strange.

Whenever I fight AI with my warden, they mare sometimes able to block heavy attacks. Especially the two shield classes.

It might be possible though that this is a shield class specific thing.


@ tyrrelduckard

I do have some nice ideas. ;)

Hitting your enemies head / helmet with the cross guard or pommel, is exactly the kind of move and mechanic, the warden needs. In addition, people would stop flipping out over the shoulder bash.

Vikko2
02-13-2017, 11:38 PM
That's strange.

Whenever I fight AI with my warden, they mare sometimes able to block heavy attacks. Especially the two shield classes.

It might be possible though that this is a shield class specific thing.


@ tyrrelduckard

I do have some nice ideas. ;)

Hitting your enemies head / helmet with the cross guard or pommel, is exactly the kind of move and mechanic, the warden needs. In addition, people would stop flipping out over the shoulder bash.

The only problem I have with removing Guard Break Cancel is that after any step, Warden is forced to use shoulder charge if they press Guard Break. Often times I want to Guard Break and not charge, so the charge begins but I immediately do a Guard Break instead. I'd be happy if the Guard Break Cancel is removed so long as there's still a way to Guard Break immediately after a step like a lot of other classes can do.

Imp-C-Bravo
02-14-2017, 02:29 AM
Peacekeepers second light in her combo chain is unblockable. Her move set doesn't say it, and as the opponent it doesn't necessarily look that way, but test it. As long as she switches directions between the first and second light, the second light hits you. Don't know if this is intentional or not, but it's frustrating as hell to play against, because all the indicators tell you you could block/react/parry/dodge/whatever to this hit, but actually you can't.


You are incorrect. The second light is blockable (and parryable if you are super on the ball) on her basic attack chain. I put a bolded underline in your quote to explain what you are missing as you said it yourself. This is the same for any and all characters. Hers is super fast so its very difficult to react to it -- but it is not unblockable.