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View Full Version : Frustrations regarding game design for Deathmatch/Elmination



Mace007
02-12-2017, 03:36 AM
Encouraged 3 friends to try the open beta and consider purchasing For Honor, but sadly, all three found themselves very frustrated due to some design issues. Thought I'd share them.

1. Sprint speed when retreating/losing a fight: It is very frustrating to have absolutely dominated a high speed hero like the Peacekeeper only to have said hero sprint away indefinitely until they either receive back up or find a "boost/pickup." Please consider decreasing sprint speed as the hero takes more damage, and/or having sprint drain stamina so when the character is out of stamina they can no longer sprint. Currently, the rounds often turn into these goofy chase sequences, and I'm waiting for Yakety Sax to start playing.

2. Revive Speed/Health: Fighting a lengthy battle with an opponent only to watch all of that progress be wiped away within seconds is incredibly disheartening. Please consider significantly decreasing revive health and/or lengthening revive times.

3. Pick ups/boost: I've noticed the more experienced players actually completely ignore their immediate opponent and instead run away/retreat to the closest attack/defense boost before entering combat. Was it your intent to have a mad dash for boost/pick ups be this significant in the early game? The game does a great job of creating this intensity and immersion during the start of a round, but that is completely lost when your opponent runs away from you and picks up the best boost putting you at a drastic disadvantage. Please consider delaying "pick up/boost" activation to mid or late game, and/or making it take longer to pick up/activate a boost.

Exterium
02-12-2017, 03:37 AM
To be honest, this game is designed around the 1v1 fights, absolutely everything else is there to fill the screen.

This is one of the main reasons I'm not going to buy the game, I won't pay full price for a dumbed down Tekken.

Mathonn
02-12-2017, 03:54 AM
While I can certainly understand where you are coming from, I disagree with them being issues with the game to be fixed, but rather "problems" to be solved by the players. They are the challenges that really set the mode apart.

Sprinting: if you still have teammates, pursue and ambush. If you're both solo revive a teammate or wait near his. If you've both cleared everyone, find the speed icon and try to out think them. Keep in mind you have feats like traps, range weapons, and strikes that end these chases quickly.

Revives: Make a habit of executing your opponent. I try to as much as I can, and hope others catch on. Also, stake out a downed opponent until his timer clears if you're that concerned.

Pick Ups: I find the truly experienced players make short work of their opponents, execute, and then move on, unless there is a power up right there. Of course plenty of players still bolt, but smart players don't because the advantage gained from the power up is nothing against the advantage you get by grouping up and killing a their teammate while they play pick up. If they run, either chase with knowledge that they will stop for an advantage, get a power up of your own, or make their teammates pay for the tactical decision.

SeanBaker9889
02-12-2017, 03:56 AM
Me and my friends keep getting put up against people way beyond our skill level. The "searching for skill" bar seen during matchmaking is completely useless and broken and I'll definitely be returning the full version of the game if I can't get a solid match every round. I want a casual game, not to get crushed repeatedly.

tcs1991.ts
02-12-2017, 03:56 AM
To be honest, this game is designed around the 1v1 fights, absolutely everything else is there to fill the screen.

This is one of the main reasons I'm not going to buy the game, I won't pay full price for a dumbed down Tekken.

Lmao dumbed down Tekken that is the best joke I have heard all year. That is like saying sky vodka is watered down aristocrat vodka! Hahahahahhahaha

Mace007
02-12-2017, 04:10 AM
While I can certainly understand where you are coming from, I disagree with them being issues with the game to be fixed, but rather "problems" to be solved by the players. They are the challenges that really set the mode apart.

Sprinting: if you still have teammates, pursue and ambush. If you're both solo revive a teammate or wait near his. If you've both cleared everyone, find the speed icon and try to out think them. Keep in mind you have feats like traps, range weapons, and strikes that end these chases quickly.

Revives: Make a habit of executing your opponent. I try to as much as I can, and hope others catch on. Also, stake out a downed opponent until his timer clears if you're that concerned.

Pick Ups: I find the truly experienced players make short work of their opponents, execute, and then move on, unless there is a power up right there. Of course plenty of players still bolt, but smart players don't because the advantage gained from the power up is nothing against the advantage you get by grouping up and killing a their teammate while they play pick up. If they run, either chase with knowledge that they will stop for an advantage, get a power up of your own, or make their teammates pay for the tactical decision.

I understand there are ways to 'work around' certain issues like quick revives and indefinite sprint, but my request is for the community and the developers to think at a 'design level.' Questions like: why would taking a significant amount of damage not effect sprint speed? What would be the harm of reducing sprint speed for wounded characters versus the benefit? Personally, I see wounded players having a reduced sprint as not only logical, but beneficial from a gameplay perspective to avoid the risk of goofy and lengthy chase sequences. Do lengthy chase sequences increase immersion? Intensity? Enjoyment?

My larger concern is that indefinite sprint coupled with quick revives has a nasty synergy that I would strongly prefer doesn't make it to the launch.

Mathonn
02-12-2017, 06:30 AM
The design of the classes, disparity in player ability, and use of team strategies will inevitably lead to players being overpowered, leaving flight as the only viable option for some. Damage based stamina loss removes the option and leads the game into a one dimensional existence. Dying becomes the other option. Revive speed and timer alleviates some of the frustration from losing in those situations.

Without one or the other, and likely both, players will quit matches early on, which isn't good for anybody.

These mechanics give, at the least, the illusion of hope in dire situations, and at most a chance to comeback.

I believe the design choice to allow us to best pick strategies is better than forcing us into a very linear engagement.

Exterium
02-12-2017, 06:39 AM
Lmao dumbed down Tekken that is the best joke I have heard all year. That is like saying sky vodka is watered down aristocrat vodka! Hahahahahhahaha

Oh, so you think for honor is more complex than Tekken? seems like you've never seen high level fighting gaming, we have at best 6 combos in this game, (oh, yeah, the stances, so complex, is not like every fighting game has 3 stances, standing, air, and crouch, those have been replaced by the amazing left, right, up), are you people going to understand that this game is not "hard to master" in absolutely any way?

It is hard to learn, but once you learn, that's it, there's little to none more complexity involved, maybe getting better at reactions, but that's it, add that to the fact that since this beta, the game feels slower/less responsive, and what you have is, in fact, a fighting game dumbed down for the common public, but dressed as a complex game.

Where is the complexity on this game? trying not to get killed by a random arrow? I'll assume we are talking about 1v1, because the rest is just nonsense. Avoiding guardbreaks? guardbreaks are extremelley slow compared to grabs in common fighting games (and if you want to be good, you need to reverse grabs) let's not even talk about guardbreaks not working correctly, sometimes you need to counter it as soon as the guy moves, and sometimes you need to counter it when it hits you (yeah, much skill required). Deflecting? Extremelly slow compared to crouch to avoid a hit in a common fighting game. Parrying unblockables? don't make me laugh, either they are really unblockable, such as the two overhead hits orochi can get after a parry or a guardbreak, or they are so slow that you can make a coffee before you just parry them.

So tell me, please, where is the complexity of this game?

Now go ask tekken players about learning how to play a character, you can learn how to play every character in this game before learning how to play some characters in tekken/soul calibur/any decent fighting game.

Mace007
02-12-2017, 10:16 PM
The design of the classes, disparity in player ability, and use of team strategies will inevitably lead to players being overpowered, leaving flight as the only viable option for some. Damage based stamina loss removes the option and leads the game into a one dimensional existence. Dying becomes the other option. Revive speed and timer alleviates some of the frustration from losing in those situations.

Without one or the other, and likely both, players will quit matches early on, which isn't good for anybody.

These mechanics give, at the least, the illusion of hope in dire situations, and at most a chance to comeback.

I believe the design choice to allow us to best pick strategies is better than forcing us into a very linear engagement.

So the argument is: The synergy between quick revives and indefinite sprint mechanics increase player satisfaction by serving as a comeback mechanic? And this comeback mechanic is necessary because of disparities in player skill, classes, and team strategies? And quick revive + indefinite sprint prevents "one dimensional" gameplay...Respectfully, I honestly have no idea what you're going for with that last one, and I could not disagree more strongly with the first two.

From a developer stand point: The answer to individual player and team disparity is a functional matchmaking system. When games have high levels of skill disparity and steep learning curves, matchmaking systems are the best solution to this problem. You have to treat the origin of the problem. Creating 'gameplay mechanic work arounds' often creates its own issues like I've previously mentioned. Think of the way the revenge mechanic is now creating its own issues.

From a developer stand point: The answer to class disparities is to release frequent patches post launch to balance the gameplay. Again, nothing else will solve this issue. Again, treating the origin of the problem...the fact that class disparities exist... is the most efficient way to solve the problem.