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View Full Version : Dueling Reveals Terrible Dynamic



SmugJagerMain
02-11-2017, 05:35 PM
I'm not going to be playing the dueling mode now that I'm against players who exclusively sit passively and wait to parry and spam guard breaks.
If this is all that there is at higher skill tiers then you need to seriously rethink your combat system, devs. It's not only boring, but getting punished for trying to win instead of trying to not lose is just bad design. Every player in duels is just sitting on their hands and waiting for that easy "press T to do a ****load of damage now" which isn't even remotely difficult considering that you're going to block that direction anyways and 2/3rds of the classes are always blocking in one of 3 directions.

Vakris_One
02-11-2017, 05:49 PM
Hey there,

What character are you using? Have you tried guard breaking them? Have you tried feigning your heavy attacks?

SmugJagerMain
02-11-2017, 10:46 PM
The problem I have isn't with any character/chaarcters. Generally speaking I have been using such tactics when I can, but even then my point remains. It's something that looks beyond skill considering that I'm seeing it a lot in "strict" skill brackets and adapting to it would only emphasize the issue I have with it.

Standing still for 5 minutes and drawing every round isn't very fun or engaging, but that's what the current parry system and guard break spamming rewards and encourages right now.

To further expand on that, I had one match against a warden who used heavy attacks to bait light attacks which he could then instantly feign and parry. Even though a feign would still put a delay on the next attack, you can instantly block out of feign and thus instantly parry.

I should also note that while I find dueling to have a serious issue here, I haven't had much issue in brawl since you can punish a passive player by attacking his teammate.

SmugJagerMain
02-12-2017, 06:37 PM
I see as soon as "git gud" was thrown off the table everyone ignored the topic.

Brave_Thunder
02-12-2017, 06:53 PM
If they wait for the parry,faint a heavy,do a light and Gb them.Or try to let them fail the parry with mind games.I'm annoyed too by those who play passively,luckily with my PK i can harass them to no end,even if they use warden/conq.

Jammytots
02-12-2017, 07:09 PM
Well, I know this is a comment that people hate to hear, but I believe you're just bad and not using the right mechanics correctly. If all they're doing is waiting to parry you, then you need to use feints. To parry, they need to use a heavy attack. If you feint, this leaves them completely open. Why would you think this is all there is to higher skill tiers when you're not even up there yourself?

Your point does not still stand when the game offers you a mechanic to solve that exact issue. You're encountering players who do this because of people like yourself who do not feint. Guard break more often, get better at countering guard breaks, use feints and unpredictable attacks.

Waiting to parry and guard break only works against noobs who don't know what they're doing.

Brave_Thunder
02-12-2017, 07:11 PM
and what hinders someone to just guard the other direction? if you would make a bot that only guards and gb counters, you would not win. you could feint all you want.

The fact that they usually want to parry the attack,not simply block.If they simply guard,they are not doing any damage.

Niamak
02-12-2017, 07:25 PM
In order to play aggressively against defensive players, you need to use feints. If they only only block/counter gb and never parry (nobody does that btw), you will kill them with chip damage.

sayi50
02-12-2017, 07:34 PM
Feats are disabled in Duels by default unless it is a Custom Match. There will be no block healing in Duels. As for Revenge, you can simply stop attacking for a bit and wait it out as it will empty quickly if they are really "passive".

Niamak
02-12-2017, 07:37 PM
If you are talking about skill/feat then it's probably dominion or elimination match which opens up a lot of possibilities. For example, have someone in the team with unblockable attack (raider, many feats are unblockable, etc...).

DrExtrem
02-12-2017, 07:42 PM
So ...

Atm, we have three "skill levels"

- level one:
Players, who can not counter guard break (reliably) and who are able to parry now and then. Those matches are decided or dominated, by who GBs first. Mixed bag of fun and frustration.

- level two:
Players, who managed to parry and counter GB reliably. Two players, waiting for their opponent to strike first m.. or blinks. Like watching paint dry.

- level three:
Players, who are very proficient and can counter, faint, parry and make fresh coffee and their laundry, while pulling off epic battles. The usual top 1-5% of the player base.


The first two levels might quit after a short period of time or start to play vs. bots only. Not the best outlook ...

sayi50
02-12-2017, 07:47 PM
It's called "neutral game" or "footsies" in Fighting Game Community, my friend. You pace back and forth and test the opponent's defenses to see if there is an opening or catch them. And it should not last "all the game". Eventually one side will run out of patience and make a move.

I understand your worry about it being boring but that's how mid/high level goes. Mid-skill level tends to drag the footsies out for a long time because of their own lack of confidence. High-skill levels don't even last 10-15 seconds before someone is done reading and makes a move.

It really is just another wall. First wall was "people who keep spamming attacks or GBs", the second wall is "people who play defensively". Once you get through that, you will reach the third skill level where things get really, really messed up with Up feint into Side feint into Light Attack while you stare at the screen, saying "what the hell just happened?" and probably call them a hacker.

Lord_Binz
02-12-2017, 07:56 PM
Another one of these guys.... "I cant figure out how to play, so Im going to go to the forums and complain".

Like many of the above people have said, no defence is unbreakable, there are no feats in duel mode, congratulations you have progressed to the 2nd tier of skill and have now gotten yourself stuck there. Since you have an unwillingness to learn further, I guess this is where we part ways.

Good luck in your future games!

Crudesco
02-12-2017, 08:03 PM
Well, I know this is a comment that people hate to hear, but I believe you're just bad and not using the right mechanics correctly. If all they're doing is waiting to parry you, then you need to use feints. To parry, they need to use a heavy attack.

To parry, they need to use heavy attack? Seems like you havent even tried parrying light attacks. What smugcosmonaut said is completely true. Unless you are a pk, going on the offense is usually detrimental since there are so many ways to punish.

Niamak
02-12-2017, 08:12 PM
Also, there are gear items and feats that increase chip damage.

Flatlander57
02-12-2017, 08:16 PM
Also, there are gear items and feats that increase chip damage.

Not for 1v1 or 2v2s, Gear is not counted in these modes.

Here is a video of me and a friend showing how powerful Defensive play is:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

There is literally no way to get past it, other than using a unblockable attack. But, all Unblockable attacks are slow and can easily be parried, therefor there is no way to get through this.

Snow901
02-12-2017, 09:42 PM
If they wait for the parry,faint a heavy,do a light and Gb them.Or try to let them fail the parry with mind games.I'm annoyed too by those who play passively,luckily with my PK i can harass them to no end,even if they use warden/conq.

To be fair, I'll say that Conquerors have very weak offensive game. Their entire kit is very reaction based because they don't have feint like all other characters, instead they have the all block stance cancel which eats up a ton of stamina to do and I don't even know if it shows the hit indicator to make someone try to attack them like other characters can when feinting. To me, Conq play is mostly sitting and waiting for your opponent to attack, and when they don't attack you have to anticipate when they will try to guard break you and that is how you get your damage in to punish them if they wait for you to do something. The only exception of course is the peacekeeper's lights which are usually too fast to react to and the warden's threatening zone attack which is hard to react to when mixed up properly.

Snow901
02-12-2017, 09:49 PM
So ...

Atm, we have three "skill levels"

- level one:
Players, who can not counter guard break (reliably) and who are able to parry now and then. Those matches are decided or dominated, by who GBs first. Mixed bag of fun and frustration.

- level two:
Players, who managed to parry and counter GB reliably. Two players, waiting for their opponent to strike first m.. or blinks. Like watching paint dry.

- level three:
Players, who are very proficient and can counter, faint, parry and make fresh coffee and their laundry, while pulling off epic battles. The usual top 1-5% of the player base.


The first two levels might quit after a short period of time or start to play vs. bots only. Not the best outlook ...

You missed one. Level zero: a day one player that just bought the game, trys out their first duel with the warden, and gets obliterated and wonders how people are this good already. Eventually stops playing the game altogether if they can't progress to level one :)

Ryumanjisen
02-12-2017, 10:05 PM
another one of those that canīt read. i asked how to counter. so far nothing. chip damage is no counter.

thats why you go to a forum, to ask for help. ****head.

They already told you: against a very defensive player, feint your heavy attacks. Mix your game and, in due time, he will do a mistake. Capitalize on that mistake, rinse and repeat.

That's on 1v1. In Dominion or Deathmatch, there are multiple ways to deal with a defensive player, namely feats and, of course, ganking.

DrExtrem
02-12-2017, 10:21 PM
You missed one. Level zero: a day one player that just bought the game, trys out their first duel with the warden, and gets obliterated and wonders how people are this good already. Eventually stops playing the game altogether if they can't progress to level one :)

Fair enough.

But every hero is going to obliterate a totally new player. The tutorial does not prepare you remotely for real pvp. I hope, that the duel against the kevel one bot is mandatory to join multiplayer matches in the final game. Otherwise, they will get slaughtered.

If you can beat bot-1, you are at least able to face off other new players or bots in coop.

TCTF_SWAT
02-12-2017, 10:26 PM
The tutorial is good. But it's best to spend some time in practice mode first. Get the hang of things, THEN dive in multiplayer. It's like that in every fighting game.

Bangsteel
02-12-2017, 10:39 PM
I think if have a little stamina loss when defend attacks this will be resolved

Vikko2
02-13-2017, 10:08 AM
As a Warden, I've had some success with using the zone attack incessantly when they clearly aren't defending their left.
It's Warden's fastest attack, but only ever comes from one direction, meaning all they have to do is guard the left side.

Because of this, they've begun diverting attention to defending from the zone attack on the left, giving you a higher chance of successfully getting an attack through the other sides- otherwise in comes another zone attack.

Some people complain about the zone attack for Wardens being too fast, but I feel that it was made to take down players who perfectly hone their reaction time like this, especially given that it only ever comes from one direction. Otherwise, I wouldn't know what to do against players who can parry/deflect/counterbreak against everything.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 10:16 AM
dude. why on earth would someone fall for a feint. just guard and you donīt lose. thatīs my whole point.
oh and to fix it either increase chip damage or stamina loss on block (to be a bit constructive here)

You are correct. After a couple of testing and the thread on the combat strategy forum, I've realized this is true: a player with good reflexes can block and counter gb as long as he wants. The 1v1 combat is, indeed, flawed.

davedxd
02-13-2017, 10:22 AM
Think of it as a game of chess, the more agressive and the more attacks without thinking you do, higher the chance of making a mistake and getting punished for it, you have to deceive your opponent and read his game style and then adapt, of course it depends on your class and some times being agressive can benefit you greatly..

DBLxxShotz
02-13-2017, 10:40 AM
As a Warden, I've had some success with using the zone attack incessantly when they clearly aren't defending their left.
It's Warden's fastest attack, but only ever comes from one direction, meaning all they have to do is guard the left side.

Because of this, they've begun diverting attention to defending from the zone attack on the left, giving you a higher chance of successfully getting an attack through the other sides- otherwise in comes another zone attack.

Some people complain about the zone attack for Wardens being too fast, but I feel that it was made to take down players who perfectly hone their reaction time like this, especially given that it only ever comes from one direction. Otherwise, I wouldn't know what to do against players who can parry/deflect/counterbreak against everything.

Yup. When they guard left i just feint top hvy if they bite i ZA. If they dont then i follow the feint with top light atk.

VillNess
02-13-2017, 10:43 AM
All these terms and I have almost no idea what they mean... "Just feint" just do what? Is there some kind of dictionary for For Honor terms :D

Aarpian2
02-13-2017, 10:45 AM
I'm not going to be playing the dueling mode now that I'm against players who exclusively sit passively and wait to parry and spam guard breaks.
If this is all that there is at higher skill tiers then you need to seriously rethink your combat system, devs. It's not only boring, but getting punished for trying to win instead of trying to not lose is just bad design. Every player in duels is just sitting on their hands and waiting for that easy "press T to do a ****load of damage now" which isn't even remotely difficult considering that you're going to block that direction anyways and 2/3rds of the classes are always blocking in one of 3 directions.

Just to clarify here - you're not wrong. Defence is overpowered as it stands and parrying into GB>Heavy is the strongest tactic.

DBLxxShotz
02-13-2017, 10:46 AM
Not for 1v1 or 2v2s, Gear is not counted in these modes.

Here is a video of me and a friend showing how powerful Defensive play is:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

There is literally no way to get past it, other than using a unblockable attack. But, all Unblockable attacks are slow and can easily be parried, therefor there is no way to get through this.

You didnt throw a single zone attack which wouldve gotten through. Just because you couldnt figure it out doesnt mean its impossible. Defense wins championships so the saying goes and in rings true in this game. There is a caveat though. If youre all defense and 0 offense sooner rather than later youll run into guys that can get around it enough to beat you. This game is Great defense/intelligent offense. If you can do that youll be in the top 5%

MonyBichesHonr
02-13-2017, 11:04 AM
The problem is not that you have to play mindgames to do damage. Having to play mindgames to do damage is a feature of pretty much every fighting game.

The problem in For Honor is that when you play mindgames, there is a defender's advantage, compared to in other fighting games where mindgames are always played with an attacker's advantage.

If we are fighting each other in Street Fighter, you can block my attacks all day long, but you are taking my chip damage and thus are only slowing down your loss until you execute a maneuver to put yourself on the offense. When time runs out, all that chip damage is going to count against you, and I will be handed the match for having a larger percentage of my health, even if I didn't actually bring you to 0. Attacks in Street Fighter, and in fact MOST fighting games, also tend to come out so fast that you would need to already anticipate it in order to block it because they are faster than human reaction times.

If we are fighting each other in For Honor, you can parry or deflect my attacks and then punish me with damage. This is like the opposite of having chip damage - rather than me hurting you less for being blocked, I am actually going to be hurt for being blocked. Attacks in For Honor also tend to come out slowly enough that most humans can react to even the faster of the game's attacks, so actually, the first person to swing in a fight is more likely to come out on the bottom.

When there is an attacker's advantage in mindgames, then people will play the mindgames. But since there is a defender's advantage in mindgames here, nobody who is playing optimally should be playing the mindgames. You will tend to lose for attempting mindgames against a defending player.

To_Obi
02-13-2017, 12:03 PM
This game should absolutly NOT try to mirror the gameplay of a real fight game. That would be terrible!
They would lose the major part of their player base if it would be like that. This Game can be really succesful because of this "light version" of a fighting game.

After watching a lot of high/top level duels, it really looks like the defense part is stronger and more important. All you see are cancelled attacks and single hits traded. Combos more or less never happen which is a bit disappointing.
Maybe there should be a bit more stamina drain on defensive actions and guaranteed guardbreaks should never be possible.