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zugfuhrer
03-27-2004, 01:21 AM
When I fly german planes, I am surprised that I dont hit.

When I fly russian planes I am surprised that I hit.

I think that you must go up to the next size of gun in a german plane to get the same effect as a russian gun.

zugfuhrer
03-27-2004, 01:21 AM
When I fly german planes, I am surprised that I dont hit.

When I fly russian planes I am surprised that I hit.

I think that you must go up to the next size of gun in a german plane to get the same effect as a russian gun.

Sana_HvJ
03-27-2004, 01:30 AM
True, true

although I seem to better hit with german planes. I find much easier to hot with a 109 than a yak ot la5 (lagg3 works better for me).

The russian guns really seem to hit harder than german rounds, especially the ShVAK 20mm compared with the MG151/20 20mm.

If you try to compare 7.62mm ShKAS and 7.9mm MG17 you have need to know that ShKAS uses incendary ammunition while MG17 only uses AP rounds. MG17 and MG131 seem to be very underdeveloped. any 12.7mm gun hits harder than the 13mm mg131. this sucks!!!!

Tully__
03-27-2004, 01:35 AM
The Russian & German weapons have different ballistic properties and require slightly different approaches to aiming to get similar results.

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tenmmike
03-27-2004, 01:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sana_HvJ:
True, true

although I seem to better hit with german planes. I find much easier to hot with a 109 than a yak ot la5 (lagg3 works better for me).

The russian guns really seem to hit harder than german rounds, especially the ShVAK 20mm compared with the MG151/20 20mm.

If you try to compare 7.62mm ShKAS and 7.9mm MG17 you have need to know that ShKAS uses incendary ammunition while MG17 only uses AP rounds. MG17 and MG131 seem to be very underdeveloped. any 12.7mm gun hits harder than the 13mm mg131. this sucks!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> shVAK 20mm mv 860 m/s vel mg151/20 depending on round from 640 to800m/s on the 12.7mm vs 13 mm ....13mm=710-750m/sec(9,000 joules of energy and12.7mm(m2) 890 m/sec(approx) with 17,000 joules of energy

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Xnomad
03-27-2004, 01:55 AM
Yeah I remember first time I flew a Red plane online and a Bf 109 crossed my sights from really far away and I thought I would just shoot for the hell of it. After a very quick burst to my surprise off came his wing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I didn't even expect to hit him.

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Lt.Davis
03-27-2004, 02:00 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tully__:
The Russian & German weapons have different ballistic properties and require slightly different approaches to aiming to get similar results.

&gt;&gt;&gt; Please tell me how? Thanks!

Speed is the KEY.

Tully__
03-27-2004, 03:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt.Davis:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tully__:
The Russian & German weapons have different ballistic properties and require slightly different approaches to aiming to get similar results.

&gt;&gt;&gt; Please tell me how? Thanks!

Speed is the KEY.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the larger calibre weapons (ie: cannon) Russian weapons mostly have higher muzzle velocity, hence they require less lead and are easier to hit longe range targets with.

It can be done with the German aircraft, but the lower muzzle velocity means more deflection is required for lead shots. It also means more allowance for bullet drop is required if you're shooting at distances greater than your convergence settings.

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WWMaxGunz
03-27-2004, 03:46 AM
Find a copy of Olegs Guns and Ammo Table.

Notice how for the 151/20 and some other german guns the shell weights and muzzle velocities are different. 151/20 MG shells weigh 10% less than the AP and HE rounds and has 20% more muzzle velocity than the AP/tracers. 775m/s for the MG's and 705m/s for AP/tracers, 710m/s for the HE with same shellweight as the AP. This means that the MG will start out with a higher trajectory and later drop faster than the others.

Why should it start out higher? The guns are set to not only converge at the set range but also the shells should cross the sight hairs at the same range. So the barrels point up some degrees. The same barrel fires all the shells so the fastest one lobs higher at least initially. that is the MG rounds which not being tracers you don't see where they are going unless they strike! Not only does the MG's go higher, they go faster and out of sequence in time. But they slow down faster too so they drop faster in time.

This is with firing level or near level shots.

Why should it drop faster? At muzzle velocities above sound the drag is high and the loss of speed with time occurs quickly. Not as quick for cannon as for rifle but still quick enough. The inertia of weight is all the shell has to fight this and with 10% less weight the battle is against the MG shell more than the others including the tracers. The paths of all rounds cross in time, probably less than a full second and proabably not at the same distance. The MG rounds are by then slower than the others by a good bit. After that the drop of the MG path is going to be wider and wider from the others. By itself it's still a very effective shell but knowing where the MG's are going to try and aim them isn't going to be good and your rounds will not all hit the same target very far out unless it is long or wide in the direction of the spread, like across the wings or along the fuselage from above or below. Also, firing much in the vertical from up or down will reduce very much the dispersion!

It would be very good to know all the crossing points for any range of convergence. There is obviously one or really two golden ranges to fire at where the rounds from any one gun will all hit a small area.

Short of all that, firing from close up like 200m or less the different paths won't be seperated by much if the convergence is not set for long range. There just won't be time for the rounds to diverge that much! Regardless, firing at vertically thin targets like the edges of wings from right behind may still see one or two types of shells getting hits while the other(s) go high or low.

Firing from deflection will get you wider or longer profiles and better strike angles. From above or below is your best bets and from the side or combined deflections (high and 4 or 5 clock position) is best of all.

If you think the 151/20 rounds seperation is bad then go check out the Mk 108's.

These shell masses and velocities are supposed to be historic. I'd think twice about arguing that with Oleg, he's spent major time on it and didn't just Google up the numbers. If the gunnery is too hard then there's always a toggle for that. Don't count on experience in other sims to help or begin to try and compare them to Il2, hehe!


Neal