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View Full Version : Is deflection/counterattack a viable mechanic?



Sanctus_9
02-10-2017, 07:03 AM
I come at this mainly from the perspective of being an Orochi player. I'm aware that peacekeeper has a deflection ability as well although I'm not familiar with its mechanics.

That all being said, I feel like the deflection ability may need a rework or some fine tuning. I didn't participate in the alpha but I learned that the ability was nerfed after Orochi players were apparently having too easy of a time spamming their counterattacks. It seems to be just the opposite now; every good Orochi player I've ever come across never even attempts to use it, instead resorting to parry/block/early dodge.

Now, I've played since the closed beta and I certainly don't consider myself a great player but I'm definitely competent and have a good understanding of this hero in particular, and with that said I often find myself in one of two scenarios;

A: consciously attempting to make use of deflection, and ending up getting hit 9/10 times and losing utterly.
B: following my instincts, forgoing deflection entirely and ending up being far more successful.

In my opinion the main problem here is how much they shortened the window to deflect; their way of nerfing it. It's now far more difficult to deflect than it is to block, dodge, or even parry. As a result the ability becomes more of a risk/reward mechanic in which the risk far outweighs the benefit. Sure, sometimes you'll end up dodging too early, and you'll simply end up doing a normal dodge and avoiding the attack anyway. However because the timing is so late and so exact, more often than not you'll end up dodging too late, in which case you're getting hit. On top of that, if it's against an overhead attack, if you dodge too late or too early you're guaranteed to be hit because you're literally just dodging into their attack. Factor on top of this the issue of even the most minor latency delays, as well as characters with extremely fast light attacks such as peacekeeper, and you'll probably find this tool is more of a hindrance than helpful.

I'm fine playing Orochi without it, but to be honest this was really the guy's main claim to fame, the 2 counterattacks being the only thing in his kit that really makes him unique - otherwise he's really just quite vanilla. And I can't help but feel cheated, and somewhat at a disadvantage to other heroes with my pool of options and tools being reduced than what is was meant to be, crippling my ability to be dynamic and unpredictable. In order to improve it, I would have to say to either increase the damage of the light counterattack, rework how it's used entirely, or just get rid of it and replace it with a more usable ability.

And no, I'm not *****ing out of nerd rage or screaming OROCHI SUCKS NEED BUFFS. Orochi is still viable, I still like playing him, and I think this game generally speaking is pretty tightly balanced. It's just something that irks me and I'd like to know if others feel the same.

SethUnleashed
02-10-2017, 07:45 AM
i had the same problem during the closed beta but tried some stuff in the open beta yesterday and i feel way more comfortable using deflects now allthough my timing still needs practice (but im also trying to get used to the xbox elite controlles paddles, which is a HUGE change of playstyle and re-learning the mapping and getting it into reflex isnt easy and will take time).

deflect is basically the EXACT same thing as a parry from a timing perspective.

you have to dodge when the enemies red guard flashes (right the same time you would initiate a parry)

i do think that deflects FEEL harder to execute, but just from a timing perspective, they are not.

the thing i have the most problem with is trying to deflect very fast attacks (esp from the top guard).

also what helped me somewhat in getting the timings right is learning how to "stutterstep"
basically:
A) never stand still (always do something with your left analog stick, to train your muscle to be ready all the time)
B) switch movement directions frequently to not fall into the habit of going the same direction all the time.

to hit the deflect you just need to flick the analog stick in the correct direction and instantly press the dodge button when the enemies guard flashes... same as parry, this should be trained to be all a split-second button-combo (direction + A + light/heavy attack depending on what deflect you want or can do).

i would love to make a tutorial video on this, but for some reason my shadowplay doesnt record for honor xD

Sanctus_9
02-10-2017, 08:13 AM
Oh trust me I know HOW to deflect. But to say that it's as easier as parrying is just wrong. With parrying you have about a 1 second window after looking a certain direction as an assassin, and doesnt have to be timed in an exact manor. The deflect window, when the red bar is highlighted, is maybe 1/4 of that time, and it's arrival is dependent on the type of attack. Even if you could land it 50% of the time, I still don't think it would be viable because I can block/parry at least 90% of the time if it's physically possible and even a small margin of error will turn the tide of the fight with a more squishy character.

KisskerVenwrath
02-10-2017, 08:19 AM
playing only deflect/parry heroes, I can say firmly that Deflect seems wrong now. It does in fact happen less often, even though everything feels timed properly. EG: It's harder. The staggers now last longer, and something is odd about the whole flow of combat now, and deflecting is now basically off the table as an option. The 1 deflect I managed to do today, seemed to do significantly less damage, and not be worth it at all.

Toast_Addict
02-10-2017, 08:59 AM
Deflect is still a guaranteed hit. missing it sucks though, since many R1 combos will hit before the step attack does.

SethUnleashed
02-10-2017, 09:12 AM
Deflect is still a guaranteed hit. missing it sucks though, since many R1 combos will hit before the step attack does.

only if you use the orochi's deflect->heavy combo ... the light one will hit against everything but i think 1 or 2 fast comboed attacks in the whole game (at least thats what my experience was so far)



deflect window is also the same as it has been during the closed beta, but it is just timing and training.
i've gone from a ~10% success-chance in the closed beta to a 50-70% success chance now and i still feel im early in the training with it.

the thing with deflect is, you need to know WHEN to use it... just trying to deflect every attack isnt worth it. (and when i try doing that, i mostly fail hard and get destroyed xD)
for example: top-light attacks are so fast, that hitting that reaction time is hard as hell, so better block it and deflect the follow up.

deflect can be great if you combine it with normal blocks (not parries), because lots of players attack at least twice from the same direction, so block the first and be ready to deflect the second.
this works way easier than trying to deflect any initial attack where you dont know if/when/what is coming.

i said from a "TIMING perspective" its the same as a parry but it feels harder due to the different buttons that have to be pressed. (at least thats how it feels to me).

it could be easier, but then it would be abused again as it was during the alpha. its a high-risk/high-ish reward thing.
the damage is average at most, but the big thing is, that it will interrupt an enemies chain (be VERY carefull with deflects against berserkers though)

THEPH0NECOMPANY
02-10-2017, 09:39 AM
I play berserker and i only use my deflects when i want to go for a push into a wall for a free top heavy, its not worth going for it any other time imo, it is less riskier than parry because if you time it early you dont get hit and can go for a side attack.

With a parry you lose if your too late or early, even if your so late you throw the heavy after it might not hit or you could get parried. but if you do parry you get a free GB> Heavy except against nobushi, she ends up too far away to GB :( so i wouldnt parry her, otherwise i risk them all the time for free side heavies to chain combos

hmm havent played orochi since broken alpha roach, compare the damage on the side attack and unblockables that you would do with a deflect and the top heavy from guard break to the risk factor, its a personal prefrence thing .

Also i would say the strongest tool orochi has are his spacing moves... i think its called riptide strike and storm rush both when mastered are pretty amazing counter attacking moves

Shukr4n
02-10-2017, 10:28 AM
well
one thing is to time correctly your mouse movement to attack pattern of opponent.

another thing is to point mouse in the direction of the attack, press the direction with the WASD + pressing space all simultaneously.

to me remove the mouse direction would help.-

xLeapingLizardx
02-10-2017, 10:48 AM
Honestly, let's think of how broken it would be if it were fairly easier.. Example would be the Alpha Orochi.. You basically could not attack him at all. If deflects were easy you basically would not be able to attack an assassin without a risk involved on your end.
As a player who has played all 3 assassins in a mix from most of the tests, they all are pretty viable if done successfully.
Peacekeeper applies bleed, which is really nice
Orochi, gets an unblockable attack? Haven't played him in a while so not sure what has changed.
Berserker gets an automatic guard break, which i have been using in this open beta and boy is it lovely.

Another thing is that none of us have a huge amount of hours in this game. From the closed beta to the open beta I have definitely gotten better at my deflects. so think about what playing this game for a few weeks could do for your deflect improvement.

Definitely a good tip from 'sethenraged' is to not exactly focus on deflects exclusively. Use it when your opponent throws a very predictable attack etc. Orochi storm rush, Bezerker zone attack, Peacekeeper dash top attack, and slow heavy stacks are easier to predict thus easier to deflect. that has been working for me so far.

Good Luck

Shukr4n
02-10-2017, 11:01 AM
Honestly, let's think of how broken it would be if it were fairly easier.. Example would be the Alpha Orochi.. You basically could not attack him at all. If deflects were easy you basically would not be able to attack an assassin without a risk involved on your end.
As a player who has played all 3 assassins in a mix from most of the tests, they all are pretty viable if done successfully.
Peacekeeper applies bleed, which is really nice
Orochi, gets an unblockable attack? Haven't played him in a while so not sure what has changed.
Berserker gets an automatic guard break, which i have been using in this open beta and boy is it lovely.

Another thing is that none of us have a huge amount of hours in this game. From the closed beta to the open beta I have definitely gotten better at my deflects. so think about what playing this game for a few weeks could do for your deflect improvement.

Definitely a good tip from 'sethenraged' is to not exactly focus on deflects exclusively. Use it when your opponent throws a very predictable attack etc. Orochi storm rush, Bezerker zone attack, Peacekeeper dash top attack, and slow heavy stacks are easier to predict thus easier to deflect. that has been working for me so far.

Good Luck

what is the point of having such feature on assassins, removing then something else, if a fair 80% of times i try to "parry+free attack move" (dont remember now the name of skill) i get instead a dodge?
i mean , OK, i am still learning. but i often try to focus to things instead of just winning,. i try to dodge+counterattack....et voilat, i just dodged the attack with the slide movement instead of parrying and hitting .

Azrakel2
02-10-2017, 10:52 PM
I agree that timing is a key part of defense and blocking same goes with parrys and attacks. but at this point in time within the open beta it seems as if the dodge and delflect mechanic is indeed messed up. I don't know how many times ive seen the other players guard flash and have initiated the deflect only to doge into the attack. and if that's happening when such mechanics are used / initiated then something is wrong same goes for basic dodging. don't no how many times ive dodged out of an attack or initiated the mechanic then boom ive ended up getting hit. having watched the closed beta and videos of the beta it seemd it was far more balanced in the beta then it is now. the deflect / parrying and dodging mechanics. require to precise timing in my opinion it definatly needs to be alterd asap

sbqaz
02-10-2017, 11:37 PM
The thing that was suppose to seperate the Assassins from the rest, seem to have been rebalanced to a point where nobody uses it.

Through closed and now open beta - The Orochi's are plentiful, but no one uses deflect. Parry seems to land easier and you can do double High light + GB + High Hvy... Why use deflection when parry offers so much more, eventhough at a "higher risk".

But if the deflection is not rewarding enough, no one will use it. As seen in closed and open beta playthrough so far...

Olikorn
02-11-2017, 12:21 AM
Same here, the only use I can think of for deflect is when you're not close enough for a parry + GB combo, or when you unintentionally deflect just because you had decided to dodge anyway.

I also feel like it's harder to execute than a parry, though it may be mostly because I'm used to using blocks more than dodges (due to the heros I played before), so I suspect I'll eventually master it with enough practice.

I'm not sure they need to change the mechanics, but maybe a solution would be for a successful deflect to grant more original rewards than a free hit / GB (which you get already from parry). Maybe something that drains your opponent's stamina or slows down its regen? That stops his health regeneration when at critical health? That slows down his movement? There are lots of options to provide some cool effect, that should not be universally better than parry, but at least provide an advantage in some situations that make it worth performing.

Azrakel2
02-11-2017, 02:16 AM
Same here, the only use I can think of for deflect is when you're not close enough for a parry + GB combo, or when you unintentionally deflect just because you had decided to dodge anyway.

I also feel like it's harder to execute than a parry, though it may be mostly because I'm used to using blocks more than dodges (due to the heros I played before), so I suspect I'll eventually master it with enough practice.

I'm not sure they need to change the mechanics, but maybe a solution would be for a successful deflect to grant more original rewards than a free hit / GB (which you get already from parry). Maybe something that drains your opponent's stamina or slows down its regen? That stops his health regeneration when at critical health? That slows down his movement? There are lots of options to provide some cool effect, that should not be universally better than parry, but at least provide an advantage in some situations that make it worth performing.

I agree here with your reply I do feel both parrys and blocks deflects should be equaly effective. as it is in some ways a fighter ould base it off more player skill in that method

xLeapingLizardx
02-11-2017, 02:27 AM
If you think deflects should be easier you must have not played the alpha against an orochi lol.
Again, we don't know what will happen after people are able to practice deflects for months.

@Olikorn: Now that is a good idea! Instead of making it easier, add an additional effect to it to make it more worth it.

SerArthur-Dayne
02-11-2017, 02:49 AM
Just to bring some figures to the table here, playing as peacekeeper against a LVL 1 bot I killed it a few times using only deflects and only light attacks.

It took me 10 successful deflects with the deflect stab to kill.

It also took 11 light attacks to kill the same enemy.

Draw what conclusion you will from this, but to use this in your playstyle seems entirely pointless to me. Given varying lag and such its extremly hard to pull off in multiplayer. And given the fact that if you successfully dodge a player as peacekeeper you can safely get in one light attack, its pointless.

Too dificult for mere mortals to consistently pull off in a multiplayer environment, wayyy to risky, and at 110% the damage of a stock standard light attack there is no reward to balance out the huge risk. Cool animation though...