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der_Skorpion
02-25-2004, 08:17 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Just wondering why the Luftwaffe spent so much time on detailed camo for different situations and then plastered http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifCANARY YELLOW on such huge portions of their planes?? Kinda defeats the purpose of having camo doesn't it????

der_Skorpion
02-25-2004, 08:17 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Just wondering why the Luftwaffe spent so much time on detailed camo for different situations and then plastered http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifCANARY YELLOW on such huge portions of their planes?? Kinda defeats the purpose of having camo doesn't it????

Extreme_One
02-25-2004, 08:23 AM
HaHa! Good point.

There is probably a good reason though...

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the RAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html).

Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html). *NEW* Updated for FB 1.21

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/raf_sig.jpg

der_Skorpion
02-25-2004, 08:31 AM
Right EXTREME. I guess they did have some sort of "logic" behind it. I was thinking of unit ID or something like that, but for the most part you see alot of yellow on a beautiful camo pattern. More specifically the nose or other engine cowling areas. Seems the yellow would totally cancel out the camo.

Extreme_One
02-25-2004, 08:36 AM
I seem to recall reading something about a change being made during/ just after the BoB as a means of improved recognition. Could be my memory playing up though.

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the RAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html).

Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-9.html). *NEW* Updated for FB 1.21

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/raf_sig.jpg

Rajvosa
02-25-2004, 08:38 AM
If you look closely, you see that yellow is mostly present on undersides. I think it was a sort of quick recognition system to avoid firendly fire from ground troops.

Just my thought!


Regards,

Jasko

http://www.maidenfans.com/imc/pictures/aces_pda.jpg

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-25-2004, 09:51 AM
It just was for some quick recognition. I dunno about the system involved but, I'm pretty sure you get a whole bunch of sites when you google "WWII Luftwaffe markings".

Anyways, anouther story I heard that late in the war, the cammo wasn't so standard anymore. Units and Jasta's figured out cammo patterns themselves, with the available paint.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/JaVAPlatypus-1java.JPG (http://www.1java.org)

Zeus-cat
02-25-2004, 10:18 AM
IMO the camo hides the plane at medium to long distances even with all the yellow on it. When you get within firing range the yellow identifies the plane as German to avoid friendly fire. The best of both worlds!

Zeus-cat

MandMs
02-25-2004, 10:25 AM
Is not Jasta a WW1 word? The LW used staffel and gruppen in WW2 did they not?

At the end, the stocks of paint were 'in a mess' so that some paints were mixed to get as close as possible to the RLM coclors.



I eat the red ones last.

Gershy
02-25-2004, 10:32 AM
Those markings were used by different AF to recognize friendlies. The Germans used yellow in the east, as far as I remember they had red markings before in BoB. I think the Allies put the black and white stripes on their overlord planes for the same reason. Just a guess.

Avi8or
02-25-2004, 02:11 PM
Yea, eastern front luftwaffes had yellow band on them, while mediteranian planes had white bands. And I'm guessing blue band was western front??

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"

MandMs
02-25-2004, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Avi8or:
Yea, eastern front luftwaffes had yellow band on them, while mediteranian planes had white bands. And I'm guessing blue band was western front??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yellow can be seen on ETO a/c &gt; under the cowl and on the rudder. The early RD band color was red.

Further reading http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/jgmark2.htm



I eat the red ones last.

Zyzbot
02-25-2004, 02:39 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Avi8or:
Yea, eastern front luftwaffes had yellow band on them, while mediteranian planes had white bands. And I'm guessing blue band was western front??

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Try this link and scroll down:

http://users.hol.gr/~nowi/


It shows White for Africa and Yellow for Eastern front...but nothing about blue.

EPP-Gibbs
02-25-2004, 02:41 PM
It started during the BoB as a directive to reduce friendly fire incidents. The RAF pilots initially thought they were the markings of an elite unit, and variously called them 'Abbeville Boys', 'Yellow nosed b@stards' etc. As a result, they probably ended up crediting many ordinary LW pilots with more skill than they actually possessed.

If I had all the money I'd spent on drink..I'd spend it on drink!

herzam
02-25-2004, 02:58 PM
i read in someplace , this yellow marks were use for recognize and not shot thenselves , this begin in battle of britain

sorry for my english is poor

JR_Greenhorn
02-25-2004, 03:16 PM
I've also read that the yellow was for recognization, especially by ground units. The size of the portion of the aircraft painted yellow reflects the degree of air superiority the Nazis enjoyed at the time. Earlier schemes had the entire cowl painted nearly up to the cockpit, while, as the war wore on, the yellow was reduced to just the under-engine portion of the cowling.

While I don't know for certain if the Luftwaffe actually did this, one can see that the yellow portion of the engine cowling would be easy to cover on the ground. I'm sure we've all seen pictures of grounded aircraft with blankets covering the engine cowling and cockpit canopy to keep the elements out.

Another bonus of the chromate yellow paint that was certainly not part of its design consideration is the preservative effect it has on the aircraft parts it covers. Remember the pictures of the 109 removed from a Russian lake a little while back?

Bristolboy
02-25-2004, 03:20 PM
Perhaps the camouflage was so good they would never have found their own aircraft without it.

DJKruse
02-25-2004, 04:20 PM
I remember reading somwhere the yellow noses where to help when attacking head on with the sun behind them. As far as I know attacking from the sun was a tactic the Luftwaffe liked to do.

RaiderSix
02-25-2004, 04:36 PM
EPP-Gibbs, that is exactly what I have just read in "the most dangerous enemy" Battle of Britain book. Wish I could find it so I could quote it word for word.

horseback
02-25-2004, 09:03 PM
If you take a look at the a/c and their histories, you'll see that there was a certain amount of method to the yellow ID madness. At the outset of the war, there was a spate of 'friendly fire' incidents, at least partially due to the LW's failure to indoctrinate their fighter pilots in aircraft recognition even to the paltry degree that the Allies did. This resulted in oversized national insignia on the fuselage & wings during the Battle of France and the early stages of the Battle of Britain.

At the same time, the Jagdewaffe were also changing their camoflauge schemes to reflect what they'd learned in 18 months of air combat on the offensive, so units that were farther along in their conversion to the gray schemes sometimes had problems IDing other LW 109s or 110s in the blur of combat. This led to the application of temporary "distemper paints" on the nose of white or yellow (easily noticed from a good distance).

This way, the darker colored RAF fighters were more easily distinguished from 109s using a mix of greens or green and 01 grau upper camo schemes.

As the BoB tapered off, things heated up in N. Africa, and preparations were made for Barbarossa, theater markings and bands came into play to help identify not only other LW units, but those of other Axis AFs in the theater. In the Mediterranean area, the wingtips and fuselage bands were white(although there were still a lot of yellows under the chins), and in the East, the wingtips, fuselage bands, and sometimes all or parts of the nose were painted yellow. On the Kanalfront, they generally eschewed fuselage bands for yellow under the nose and on the rudder, with some gruppe taking on some individualized gruppe or staffel markings.

Flight leaders were also sometimes distinguished by white tails in some outfits, the most famous example possibly being Grislawski's G-6. By early '44, the Reichsdefense fuselage bands were brought into it, but that's too complicated for me to get into, and may have been more about esprit de corps than identifying friendlies.

The Germans were not the only ones to use yellow or white for 'distemper' markings. The RAF adopted yellow strips along the leading edges of the outer two-thirds of their fighters' wings, Mustangs and Thunderbolts had their outlines broken up with white nose bands and stripes on wings and/or tails, and the Japanese had yellow along the inner half of their fighters' wings' leading edges. In the Southwest Pacific, Allied fighters had white tails and wing leading edges for a long period of time, and in the Med, Allied fighters all had red noses.

Generally speaking, camo is decided upon by the Defense Ministry or Department, and the contractors building the aircraft paint it according to the customer's wishes (I just spent two work days adjusting drawings and documentation to reflect an Air Force change in requirements for a radar system's paint scheme, so this is close to home). In theater, identification markings were added, and sometimes, the original camo scheme stripped off or modified to adjust to local conditions.

Now hopefully, this has thoroughly confused you all and you'll say "To hell with this, I'm going to go shoot something down."

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944