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Monson74
06-20-2004, 09:52 AM
"PILOT BIAS

Although it was never widely realised during the war, fighter pilots had a slight left hand bias. The reason for this was that the pilot generally flew with his right hand on the control column and his left hand on the throttle. His right hand was therefore central and his left hand was off to the left. It was therefore slightly easier for him to glance behind over his left should(er) than his right.
In addition, if a sudden evasive manoeuvre was wanted, it was easier for him to push the stick to the left than to pull it backhanded to the right. This was of course in the days before powered controls. This slightly offset seating position ensured that an attacker approaching from astern would stand a slightly better chance of remaining unseen by coming in from slightly to the right. As the golden rule is to break into any attack, the defending pilot would be at a disadvantage here also which may give the crucial edge to the attacker. An interesting point is that British fighters carried the reflector gunsight centrally, whereas the German 109 had it offset to the right to suit the pilot's right eye.

Mike Spick"

Quote from the book "Battle of britain", Salamander Books 1990.

(Note how many times he uses the word "slightly")

S!

Monson


"So when Diogenes perceived that he was greatly excited and quite keyed up in mind with expectancy, he toyed with him and pulled him about in the hope that somehow he might be moved from his pride and thirst for glory and be able to sober up a little. For he noticed that at one time he was delighted, and at another grieved at the same thing, and that his soul was as unsettled as the weather at the solstices when both rain and sunshine come from the very same source."

(Dio Chrysostom "Discourse" 4.77-78)

[This message was edited by Monson74 on Sun June 20 2004 at 10:26 AM.]

Monson74
06-20-2004, 09:52 AM
"PILOT BIAS

Although it was never widely realised during the war, fighter pilots had a slight left hand bias. The reason for this was that the pilot generally flew with his right hand on the control column and his left hand on the throttle. His right hand was therefore central and his left hand was off to the left. It was therefore slightly easier for him to glance behind over his left should(er) than his right.
In addition, if a sudden evasive manoeuvre was wanted, it was easier for him to push the stick to the left than to pull it backhanded to the right. This was of course in the days before powered controls. This slightly offset seating position ensured that an attacker approaching from astern would stand a slightly better chance of remaining unseen by coming in from slightly to the right. As the golden rule is to break into any attack, the defending pilot would be at a disadvantage here also which may give the crucial edge to the attacker. An interesting point is that British fighters carried the reflector gunsight centrally, whereas the German 109 had it offset to the right to suit the pilot's right eye.

Mike Spick"

Quote from the book "Battle of britain", Salamander Books 1990.

(Note how many times he uses the word "slightly")

S!

Monson


"So when Diogenes perceived that he was greatly excited and quite keyed up in mind with expectancy, he toyed with him and pulled him about in the hope that somehow he might be moved from his pride and thirst for glory and be able to sober up a little. For he noticed that at one time he was delighted, and at another grieved at the same thing, and that his soul was as unsettled as the weather at the solstices when both rain and sunshine come from the very same source."

(Dio Chrysostom "Discourse" 4.77-78)

[This message was edited by Monson74 on Sun June 20 2004 at 10:26 AM.]

archermav
06-20-2004, 10:19 AM
Interesting point. I've just read a book called carrier combat where this point of pulling to the left in an emergency was mentioned. The author reckons thats why islands on aircraft carriers are mainly on the right of flight line.
Mind, the japanese had them on the left.

OldMan____
06-20-2004, 10:22 AM
Probably english would make the other side too...

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Sam_the_greek
06-20-2004, 10:53 AM
Now that ya mention it, in many guncam film you see the attacked plane break left (if it still has the chance that is)

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Galland: "Jawul Herr Feldmarschalk, geben Sie mir ein Staffel Spitfires!"
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huggy87
06-20-2004, 11:22 AM
It is even worse for carrier pilots. We are used to flying hundreds of passes in a left hand pattern to land. It just makes you uncomforable to have to land in a right hand pattern. More often than not carrier pilots will try to turn left at a merge.

TD_Klondike
06-20-2004, 11:24 AM
The reason may also have something to do with an airplane's left-turning tendencies. It's possible that because of those big engines, the airplanes just turn a bit easier to the left.

Xnomad
06-20-2004, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monson74:
An interesting point is that British fighters carried the reflector gunsight centrally, whereas the German 109 had it offset to the right to suit the pilot's right eye.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might be thick, but does someone who understands what the above has to do with the tendency of looking over your left shoulder and left turns as I don't get it?

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

DeBaer.534
06-20-2004, 03:29 PM
um no, its just an additional information i guess. not really worth mentioning/questioning this though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BennyMoore
06-20-2004, 04:15 PM
No, but I don't see a reason to get snarky, Xnomad.

ST__Pawnee
06-20-2004, 04:58 PM
Very true Monson! Same thing with todays glider pilots. In the thermals, in average over 90% of the turns are taken to the left. Same reason as you mentioned http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Menthol_moose
06-20-2004, 04:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Quote from the book "Battle of britain", Salamander Books 1990.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of my favourite books, highly recommended http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

horseback
06-20-2004, 11:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monson74:
An interesting point is that British fighters carried the reflector gunsight centrally, whereas the German 109 had it offset to the right to suit the pilot's right eye.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might be thick, but does someone who understands what the above has to do with the tendency of looking over your left shoulder and left turns as I don't get it?

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the stick is mounted in the center of the cockpit, and your right hand is on the stick with your left on the throttle, there is a tendency to center your shoulder over the stick. This results in you leaning to your left a bit. The preference for the left turn comes from being able to 'push' the stick left more easily than you can 'pull' it to the right.

Does that help?

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

ImpStarDuece
06-21-2004, 05:03 AM
What Horseback said...

The muscular structure of the human arm and shoulder means that it is easier to 'push' to the left then 'pull' to the right when holding the control stick.

Might not seem like much of a big thing but think about it a bit more.

A WW2 fighters alierons were directly tied to the strength with which the stick was moved. Thats why pilot manuals often talk about 20,30 or 40 lbs of stick force. Now if its easier to push to the left than it is to the right and you have to mave a stick with 40 or 50lbs of force, which way are you going to push it.

Because of this strength bias the unconscious reaction of most pilots when under extreem pressure (read: combat!) was to throw the stick to the left when breaking or performing high G turns. Experianced pilots learned to adjust to this often anicipating an inexperianced opponents break or rolling right instead of left when causght in someones sights to give them a millisecond advantage.

try it yourself when in combat online. Note which way you break when suprised or force to do an unplanned manouver. Becomes interesting in a T'n'B situation if both pilots know abouthte natural tendency.

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MB_Avro
06-21-2004, 10:28 AM
When riding a motorbike....

..I find it more natural and easier to turn to the left rather than the right. I am right handed so maybe those who are left handed would find it easier to turn to the right?

Perhaps left handed pilots would naturally 'break' right?

Perhaps we should have a vote??

I hope this helps.
MB_Avro

horseback
06-21-2004, 10:38 AM
Gee...now that I think about it, maybe it's just that you guys are just Left-leaning Socialists instead of Right-thinking Amerkins. Remember, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Bula
06-21-2004, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
Gee...now that I think about it, maybe it's just that you guys are just Left-leaning Socialists instead of Right-thinking Amerkins. Remember, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And in the English language two positives don't make a negative, do they?

Yeah, right

WTE_Galway
06-21-2004, 06:54 PM
methinks the direction of rotation of the engine might actually be significant in deciding which way to turn

BlitzPig_DDT
06-21-2004, 07:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
methinks the direction of rotation of the engine might actually be significant in deciding which way to turn<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does play a role. Under test conditions where pilots have time to use both hands, it's often found that planes turn better 1 way than the other. Torque, prop wash, wing design meant to counter the above, etc, all affect this.

However, the other points made are cleary pertinent as well.

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Tooz_69GIAP
06-21-2004, 08:23 PM
It has been said a lot that 109s seemed to be able to turn far better to one side than the other (I forget which side though).

This was due to the large amount of torque generated by the engine, and the fact that the pilot had to keep the rudder pedal pushed down to keep the aircraft from rolling to much. As a result of this constant pressure on the rudder pedal, fatigue would set in the leg or whatever side it was.

When the 109 was in combat, and had to turn he would stamp onto the rudder pedal using his "rested" leg, which could push with far more force than his "fatigued" leg, and so the aircraft turned better to that side than it did to the other.

I forget where I read this, but I thought it really quite interesting.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

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WTE_Galway
06-21-2004, 08:29 PM
in game .. the huge amount of right rudder needed at speed in the original Il2 109's has been toned down substantially in FB

BaldieJr
06-21-2004, 09:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monson74:
An interesting point is that British fighters carried the reflector gunsight centrally, whereas the German 109 had it offset to the right to suit the pilot's right eye.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might be thick, but does someone who understands what the above has to do with the tendency of looking over your left shoulder and left turns as I don't get it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was mentioned because it relates to understanding the natural mechanics of human movement within a cockpit.

Most people are right-eye dominant, meaning they depend more on thier right eye than left. Most don't even know it, but realize they are once its been brought to thier attention.

Xnomad
06-22-2004, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monson74:
An interesting point is that British fighters carried the reflector gunsight centrally, whereas the German 109 had it offset to the right to suit the pilot's right eye.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might be thick, but does someone who understands what the above has to do with the tendency of looking over your left shoulder and left turns as I don't get it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was mentioned because it relates to understanding the natural mechanics of human movement within a cockpit.

Most people are right-eye dominant, meaning they depend more on thier right eye than left. Most don't even know it, but realize they are once its been brought to thier attention.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Baldie, everyone else seems to have misread what I said I was asking about. I meant the gun sight being off and not the tendency to lean left but people don't seem to read threads before they reply http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif As for the guy who said I was being "snarky"??? What are you on about?

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