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View Full Version : So much for no cheating in FB



XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 08:50 PM
http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=forum&action=topic&id=1087

take a peek.

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 08:50 PM
http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=forum&action=topic&id=1087

take a peek.

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 08:53 PM
Posts: 1

Registered: 19.6.2003


I think it is better to take it with a grain of salt... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 08:56 PM
Yep..

But wouldnt hurt if Oleg got a peek of it and tighted the rope around programmers, true or not I dont think files should be allowed to leak..

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 09:26 PM
Now this is a hack.

http://www.geocities.com/fennecb17/vid3.avi (guncam footage using wireframe hack)

Wireframe view allows you too see through your cockpit, and allows you to spot aircraft as soon as they are visible (10km). It also eliminates clouds, muzzle flash and every other form of sprite. In full-real, this renders you essentially invincible.

I'm not going to post a link to the program, but you can see how it would affect an online war.

This program works for all openGL and D3D games (all the ones I have tried), so its not just a FB exploit. Its just a method of forcing various settings in your video card driver.

Normally this hack would not be of much use, because it also corrupts the GUI text, and makes it impossible to find out which plane you are choosing. But in a coop mission it would work well, as you do not have to read anything. Someone using this exploit would not be able to read chat messages.


Message Edited on 06/19/0302:32PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 11:46 PM
VOW post was there one minute, gone the next.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 05:37 AM
Neither of these links go anywhere, well, the first one does but it's a blank page in that VOW room.

This doesn't sound a bit good however. What is this all about?

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:15 AM
Hmm that is what many others have used in FPS games.... They call it wall hacking in this case i guess it would be called Pit hacking

Dispicable indead...!

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:27 AM
The page in the VOW forum was related to the test-release of the new graphics DLLs. These files provide a bit better performance with noticeable stutterfree flying.

They are released with the patch. If you need more information (from a technical view), there is another thread in VOW handling this issue. Here is the link, no downloads included:

http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=forum&action=topic&id=1053

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:28 AM
the upper post explains it i guess..

edit the no needed speculation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Message Edited on 06/20/0309:33AM by alarmer

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 02:57 PM
What's next? Aimbots?! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 04:46 PM
What stutters are they talking about? I've never had them, and I'm using the default .dlls.

Harry Voyager

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 09:17 PM
Never dowload programs that aren't official.

For all you know these "mod" dll's could be scanning your computer or doing other nasty things.

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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 10:58 PM
As a box sim. Its the best I have seen. As an online sim. It is a complete POS. The level of cheating that goes on is astonishing. I am not talking about some exotic hack. I don't expect a developer to be able to guard against a determined, and skilled hacker. I am talking about dumb stuff, that was fixed in all the real online sims years ago.

Let me count the ways.

No killshooter. This is so stupid it requires no explanation, for any experienced flight simmer.

Friendly collisions are enabled. Worse then no kill shooter, in this, so called, game. You shoot a guy down a few times. He gets mad. Switches sides. Then rams you. No only does it ruin your sorti. It cost YOU 500 points (Equivalent to shooting down 5 fighters). And yes. You can go into minus points. I have had friendlys ram me, reenter the game, just to catch up on points. If this turkey was release as an online game. This by it self would have insured that it would have never gotten out of beta.

Enemy collisions. You want to bring down a bomber. Just ram it. It don't matter if he sees it on his FE our not.

"Cheating has been detected" In spite of what they like to say, over on the UBI BBS. It often means exactly what it says. Some of the old, silly, cheats are alive and well in FB. Things that where fix years ago in WB, AH, etc. Things like the old screen shot cheat. You pull onto the 6 of a bad guy. There is a fifty, fifty chance he is going to develop a sudden interest in photography. Can you say rubber bullets? warp. I new you could. Maddox answer, when it was pointed out that this ruins the game. "I am not going to fix it. People like to take screen shots" This cheat is well known, so I am not talking out of school. I wont go into the others that work. All are simple. And, all have long since been fixed in the real online sims.

Track IR. I think this was an honest mistake. People that bought it got a WB type of 6 view. You cant get it any other way. They fixed it as far as the new release of drivers. However, guys are still posting the drivers for the 6 view on different boards. Its not hard to come by.

You have the intentional auger. Even when you have been hit. I have shot up a 109 to the point that it was smokeing. It crashed. No kill message. No points. In a real online sim. You would get a proximity kill.

I could go on, but whats the point. I have reached the point I dont think they are going to bother makeing the online game work.

I wont go into the FM, or guns/damage model. They are arbitrary non-sense. And, there is a patch that is suppose to come out to fix them.

So. If you like boxed sims. I highly recommend FB. The eyecandy is the best. Bar none. What passes for an FM, is complex enough to be entertaining. If you have played Fighter Ace, in FR, it is about the same.



If you like online play. Spend the extra money, and get into a real one.

I will admit to having a lot of fun, in FB, figuring out how to out-cheat the cheaters. For example, when I am closing fast on a fighters 6, I fire over their heads at long range. By the time I have closed to real killing range, they have stopped hitting the screen shot buttons, and BANG! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another one I have been having fun with is killing bombers. There are a couple of bombers in the game that are next to impossible to bring down, even if they don't cheat. They usually cheat anyway. So what I do is put a half dozen 37MM cannon into them, just to put my name on it. The I ram them (remember you can do that in this game)
with just a wing tip. Losing just a wing allows me to bail out. Eventually they have to stop hitting the screen shot button, and BANG! I get the points.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:43 AM
I tried to warn you folks about this a couple of weeks ago, but no one took much notice. The reason Oleg is so secretive about the DM and FM may be because it's so easy to hack. Games with good security have open DM/FM code. Of course, as always, no one listens - they have to learn the hard way.

The only way to prevent online hacking is to have the DM/FM code OPEN (so that offline players can modify it to suit their playing style) and to make sure there's good security in place to make sure modified FMs can't be used online. Buried FM/DM code only says to hackers that the security is probably poor or nonexistent. Merely hiding FM/DM code is not 'security' - there must be safeguards.

Of course I may as well talk to a brick wall as try to get this through the thick skulls that seem ubiquitous on this forum.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:51 AM
I'm thinking there is some truth here.And that screenshot trick is total B.S.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 03:25 AM
It might be time for the game to do checking of the OpenGL or DirectX settings during start up, and periodically during the game. If someone is using hacked settings while online, then a text message would broadcast to everyone who the cheater is, and proceed to kick the cheater.

--r

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 03:31 AM
who is easymo, and w tf is he talking about?

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When Erwin Rommel that British fighter-bombers had shot up my tanks with 40mm shells, the Hermann G¶ring who felt himself touched by this, said: "That's completely impossible. The Americans only know how to make razor blades." and the above was Rommels reply.


--lbhkilla--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
When Erwin Rommel that British fighter-bombers had shot up my tanks with 40mm shells, the Hermann G¶ring who felt himself touched by this, said: "That's completely impossible. The Americans only know how to make razor blades." and the above was Rommels reply.


--lbhkilla--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
When Erwin Rommel that British fighter-bombers had shot up my tanks with 40mm shells, the Hermann G¶ring who felt himself touched by this, said: "That's completely impossible. The Americans only know how to make razor blades." and the above was Rommels reply.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 03:34 AM
Guess i need to keep a close eye on the missions that I am hosting on Ubi.I haven't seen much in the way of so called "Cheating" there....but after reading this post I'll be sure to keep my eyes open. It is really a pity that some so called pilots think that the score is so important that they have to lower themselves to such a level. Thanks for the good info in this thread....

TX-Cuda on UBI
TX-Cuda on HyperLobby

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 07:33 AM
What ARE you guys talking about? The first link is to a thread about new .dlls that would get rid of stutters. how is that a cheat?
The second link doesn't go anywhere. what is that about?

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 07:44 AM
Pentallion wrote:
- What ARE you guys talking about? The first link is
- to a thread about new .dlls that would get rid of
- stutters. how is that a cheat?
- The second link doesn't go anywhere. what is that
- about?
-

I really don't know. The screen shot trick was fixed, ramming an enemy aircraft is supposed to bring it down, and the various kill point bugs are just difficulties in counting kills. As for the complaints about flight and damage models, they are mostly from people completely ignorant on how aircraft handled or weapons behaved during WWII.

As has been pointed out many, many times before hat "Cheating Detected" blip is triggered by lag, only. Saying that it is an accurate indication of cheating is false.

Finally, Beery, if you belive that the dm and flight models are so easy to hack, then do so, and post it for all the world to see. You seem to have built up a solid reputation as a fm modder in RB3D, so it should be childs play for you.

Harry Voyager

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:33 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
-
- Beery, if you belive that the dm and flight
- models are so easy to hack, then do so, and post it
- for all the world to see. You seem to have built up
- a solid reputation as a fm modder in RB3D, so it
- should be childs play for you.

Modding and hacking (and cracking) are two (three) completely different things. Besides, even if I did know how to hack a DM or FM (which I don't), why the heck would I want to crack it? Also, let's get the terminology right - hacking and cracking are NOT the same - you're talking about cracking, not hacking. Cracking is for losers who are obsessed with getting a high score online - it's the ultimate loser trip.

I'm primarily a mod developer and producer. My expertise with Red Baron was in producing a quality product from code that was already open. The minor hacking I did resulted in a few bugs being found and squashed, but hacking is not my thing by any stretch of the imagination.

The point is this - if the game is ever cracked, it won't be caused by open DM or FM code. Hiding the code or making it accessible is irrelevant to security. Good security should prevent even open DM/FM code from being manipulated for online play. If it can't do that, the product can't be even reasonably secure.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 09:17 AM
I will visit this topic once more.

I have witnessed some strange stuff during the reign of IL-2 and FB. Most of it was probably due to lag issues and client or host pc's that were way over extended and running the game poorly causing all sorts of strange things to happen.

I picture someone sitting there running these games on an old Pentium 100mhz, getting 1fps in single player and joining someones online server. Even if his internet connection is the best in the world what would the results of this be? I'm not an expert on this but it seems he may cause some problems with the gameplay.

My PC is starting to show its age. I am running an athlon 1.2ghz. I have a decent vid card and sound card, oodles of ram and a 1.5mb cable internet connection. But I have to stick with the small maps when hosting or playing on someone elses server simply because I can't run the big ones without a big hit in system performance.

I have been autokicked from servers despite the fact that my ping was showing below 100ms. Now on this particular occasion my frame rate had dropped to a horrible crawl. If I hadn't been kicked I probably would have left the game. The problem here may have been the hosts PC as well as mine? Maybe the connection was not stable? who knows?

As far as blatent cheating, I have made my suspicions known in the past but have been told that it is impossible to cheat in IL-2 time and again. This is a bold claim to make considering the fact that cheating is rampant on just about every other game out there. Where there is a will there is a way. I'm not PC literate enough to know how to cheat. I wouldn't cheat even if I knew how. But, the world is not a perfect place. There will always be someone who cheats for whatever reason.

I am concerned about two methods mentioned in some of the responses. The "wire frame cheat" and the "screen shot cheat".

I have played on some servers where everything was running smoothly for me until I was near a particular player whom I won't mention. My plane suddenly acted like it was stuck in glue and my control surfaces became unresponsive. I could not evade this player and was shot down three times by he or she before I said something was not right. The player promptly left the game. Was this a cheat? I guess until more players notice this it will remain a mystery. Could this have something to do with the screen shot cheat or some variation of it?

Also, when flying in a full real server, some players seem to be able to home in your aircraft wherever it is on the map. This was strange also as I was not the only one to notice it. I was hosting the game and was the target of this player more than a few times. I went out of my way to fly in different areas far away from the action and was located every time? The same thing happened to one of my teammates and he said something about it in chat to me. The guy seemed to also be able to move quickly about the map. If he was shot down or crashed he was immediately back in the vicinity of our planes in a short time. Too short.

Oh well, until some definate proof is produced all we can do is point fingers. I hope that if there are legitimate cheats they are dealt with and not swept under the table. It is a shame if players are using cheats and exploits to gain the upper hand. Even worse if these guys call themselves aces.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 09:58 AM
Some people do cheat. From what i know, very few people do so.

IL-2 would have been great if it had a mod enabeler program. Pilots and modelers would be able to make and test their own aircraft, then share it with their pals and use it together online. From games I have played in the past, I know that some "unofficial" add-ons that were accepted as default by the community. It would give players a way to have some fun offline or with pals when flying their "dream" aircraft. The program would prevent players from useing non-stock aircraft on stock only servers. If a host starts a game with a mod plane enabled, players would need the same mod to join, and would be informed of what was running on the server.

The DLL files the post was started about appear to be from software developers or testors leaking files.

EDIT: Spelling/Grammar



Message Edited on 06/22/0309:00AM by VOL_Jon

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:24 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:
-
- The screen shot trick was
- fixed-
- Harry Voyager



NO Harry the Problem still exzists I see people using it everyday I fly about 4 to 6 hours every day & its alwayes the same guys doing it as if it isint so easy to see that as soon as there on your six they have no lag @ all but get on there six & there making demos & taking screen shots & you can bet yer azz on that, Untill Oleg gives the Servers the capability too disable these things in dm play theres alwayes gona be these ignorants doing this

I like your solution take a few long range shots.... watch them lag/warp away & then when they return too normal Bang Dead Cheat!!! I realy love it when people get on the forums here & say Ummmm uuuuuu errrrrrrrrrr duuuuuu cheating ?? No that dosent never happen in FB or IL2 its Imposible its been fixed... thoes are more than likley the same folks that are doing the cheating imo (not callin you a cheat either Harry)

The sad thing is that alot of it Could Be illiminated if Oleg would give us the server Side Carves we Need



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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:38 PM
The screenshot exploit was mostly fixed. The game now will only allow you to take one screenshot every 15 seconds while online. The problem is, there are 3rd party screenshot utilities that allow someone to take multiple screen shots in an extremely short period of time.

The wireframe cheat is a hack that every 3D game is vulnerable to.

However, do not discount fast finding as a cheat. If someone plays full real exclusively, and has a high quality monitor, they can get extremely good at navigating by land, and spotting planes at extreme distances. I know that I personally can spot aircraft when they are only about three pixels wide. If I could run online at 1600x1200, then I could spot aircraft from extreme distances while online. I even manage this in the early model P-47's, by switching between normal and gunsight views, and rolling at strategic times.

It strikes me that alarmer is living up to his callsign.

Harry Voyager

Message Edited on 06/22/0308:56AM by HarryVoyager

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 06:45 PM
Beery wrote:
- I tried to warn you folks about this a couple of
- weeks ago, but no one took much notice. The reason
- Oleg is so secretive about the DM and FM may be
- because it's so easy to hack. Games with good
- security have open DM/FM code. Of course, as
- always, no one listens - they have to learn the hard
- way.
-
- The only way to prevent online hacking is to have
- the DM/FM code OPEN (so that offline players can
- modify it to suit their playing style) and to make
- sure there's good security in place to make sure
- modified FMs can't be used online. Buried FM/DM
- code only says to hackers that the security is
- probably poor or nonexistent. Merely hiding FM/DM
- code is not 'security' - there must be safeguards.
-
- Of course I may as well talk to a brick wall as try
- to get this through the thick skulls that seem
- ubiquitous on this forum.

What a joke.

These so called hacked dll files do not change the FM/DM is any way.

Only the graphics/sounds are modified for better gameplay.

The same as the Best DLL pack from the Check Six guy.

X Files is not real you know. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 10:16 PM
Come to think of it...

I was again on a full real squad server once and was using my hat switch to scan for aircraft and with cockpit on of course this is sometimes not an easy task in certain aircraft.

Every stinkin time I got in a good scrap, BAM!!!, I was shot down rather abruptly.

Well this may sound like I am just a poor excuse for a virtual pilot. But during some maneuvers that should have obscured me, allowed me to evade further detection for a moment, or put me on their six for a good shot did none of this.

Now, these guys appeared to be seasoned virtual pilots. But it did seem they had some kind of edge over me as far as visibility from their cockpit. Wireframe cheat?

Now I am not a great virtual pilot and mostly get shot up before I inflict any damage. But I have been known to hold my own on occasion.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:42 AM
I've had one flight where I killed three aircraft that I didn't see (one of them was a friendly though). The trick is to guess when they are going to pop up, and shoot then. The only catch is, if you happen to have a wingman, who is also coming up from underneath you at the same time, and right on the enemy's tail, accidents tend to happen.

It's a tight furball and I'm expecting an enemy 109 to come up under my guns any second now, and burder-durp. Ah I missed him. I look up (or down, when you consider we were flying inverted by then), and see one of my wingmen in a 109 falling away with three feet off each wing. I wonder how that happened? Ploosh. "HarryVoyager has Teamkilled So-and-So." Oh.

Harry Voyager

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:26 AM
S!


Cheating is always there and will be. Sad but true /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I've encountered a few fishy guys online who are able to shoot a plane from extreme deflection and distance into a cloud even I had changed direction there...*sigh* And usually 1 shot per kill with these VVS big gun Yak's. I consider myself as a pretty good virtual pilot having the head on a swivel in online games /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The warping thingmie is very usual when getting to someone's 6. Most excuses are that these pilots have poor connection etc. In my experience even at 300ms ping the gameplay is smooth and not too warpy, so a sudden warp-o-rama EVERY time when on their six is fishy IMO. Most of them have been out of our games after making the autokick very tight.

This wallhack is another thing...What if these guys fiddling with these things evovle a hack that gives them same ability with still usable GUI etc? It is very dumb to underestimate what these hackers and crackers can do. So far there are almost no game they haven't hacked or cracked...IL2 would be no exception.

I do take any hints that my plane is warping seriously. Can be that my system is running out of resources and I need a reboot or the cable modem is once again acting up. Therefore I try to reboot and relog. Usually it helps.

About entering the combat arena fast after shot down. For me it is easy since I usually know the map inside out where I fly, in this case Gulf Of Finland. Navigation there is painless and very easy. Some complain that the distances are too great, but IMO that is just historical and denies these "I use only 25% fuel to win"-guys..makes pilots to use closer to real tactics. Case closed for me.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheating to just get most score is childish and stupid..no respect for so called "score w-hores". That name is widely used in many sim communities so do not get offended /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Flanker
Training/Tactics Officer
Lentolaivue 34
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34

"Let Chaos entwine on defensless soil"
-Dimmu Borgir-

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:31 PM
I suppose as long as people have to manipulate their system (trough network lag, screenshot programms, graphic drivers etc...) and can not manipulate the sim software itself, then it's quite cheat proof.


TCPA and "Thrusted Computing" will soon be upon us, and then that kind of stuff can be stopped. Until then, every software is only secure in itself, not against external manipulation.

As for people raming, flying into the ground, etc...well, that's why you can boot them. There will always nbe game exploits or simple lame gameplay which cannot be automatically detected. That's why you want an admin to be present.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:57 PM
Nowi_JG54 wrote:

"I suppose as long as people have to manipulate their system (trough network lag, screenshot programms, graphic drivers etc...) and can not manipulate the sim software itself, then it's quite cheat proof.


TCPA and "Thrusted Computing" will soon be upon us, and then that kind of stuff can be stopped. Until then, every software is only secure in itself, not against external manipulation.

As for people raming, flying into the ground, etc...well, that's why you can boot them. There will always nbe game exploits or simple lame gameplay which cannot be automatically detected. That's why you want an admin to be present."


------------------

Admin to be present?

I find currently they make as many mistakes and miss as many pilots doing these things as one finds hanky panky in the game. Hosts accuse pilots of cheating, etc.... falsely as much or more as this actually occurs. This has always been the case in sims to a certain degree when playing with less well known pilots.

Much of this here is due to complexity of this program and the interface which makes identifying problem pilots difficult compared to other programs of this type where it was generally easier to keep an eye on potential problem pilots.

In my view it's far better to have a program that scores and reports such incidence as collisions, and team killing properly. As well as the program itself being stable enough with the proper interface to allow smooth gameplay that makes identifying these pilots much more reliable so they can be accurately reported to the host/admin, etc..... Unlike the current situation.

For instance, it's very difficult to distinguish between join and respawn stutter compared to intentinal connection hanky panky on a dogfight server. This problem could be easily eliminated with the modeling of a ready room in conjunction with a required kill tally that would prevent new pilots from joining a game until the next game starts if the host so selects, like current coops and other sims.

On the flipside even in coops, since home computers are being used as servers, frequently hosts are overloading their server which causes all sorts of strange lag and stutter occurences.

It has become rare of late for me to find acceptable online games, since I cannot host. I would say 1 game out of 15 is currently acceptable from a lag and stutter perspective. Most of these problems can be directly related to the number of players allowed in the game, the inexperience of the host/number of objects loaded, as well as the complexity of the program itself.





--------------------------------------

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:03 PM
"Enemy collisions. You want to bring down a bomber. Just ram it. It don't matter if he sees it on his FE our not."

The Taran is not only an effective technique against bombers and fighters, it's historically correct for the VVS.


It's a fine art, actually, to slice another plane with your own and live to bail out!

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 02:42 PM
BA_Dart wrote:

"Enemy collisions. You want to bring down a bomber. Just ram it. It don't matter if he sees it on his FE our not."

The Taran is not only an effective technique against bombers and fighters, it's historically correct for the VVS.


It's a fine art, actually, to slice another plane with your own and live to bail out!

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A fine art?

Such suicidal tactics were and are only used by certain country's, and cultures. Most western cultures consider such tactics that potentially include suicide other than honorable.

How does one score such a kill? Since the program doesn't have a method or the sophistication to distinguish between a ram kill and bail out, and ram kill and death to the performing pilot.

That's the problem with sims and the lack of death consequences.

The program currently lacks the sophistication in its scoring system to allow such real world tactics of desperation.





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"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

Mark Twain

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 07:50 PM
Most Western countries might look down on ramming, but the Soviets did not!

(cue the Internationale)

It was a sign of sacrifice to the Motherland!

So bold our boys, so resolute in halting the advance of the Fascist Invaders, that they made their very aircraft weapons against them!

(music fades)

In fact, there were many that became aces with three and four rams....one pilot managed to take down both at JU-88 and a 109 on the same mission by ramming and landed!

As far as points go, never look at them.

The idea, of course, is to perform it in such a manner as to either survive with your aircraft more or less intact or in such a state that you can bail out.

This requires far more skill than you can appreciate.

Now, the caveat - head on rammers are just silly, and real killjoys. The Taran, as a maneuver, is a whole different thing, as it requires a lot of prep and thought, especially against fighters.

Sneaking up on low six, getting the approach speed just right, staying out of sight, and gently rising so that your prop strikes just in front of the rudder without digging all the way to the spinner.....ah, now that's flying!