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pilas-
07-08-2004, 07:28 AM
Hello everyone
Will the 109 elevator heaviness be revised in the upcoming patch?
S!

Pilas

pilas-
07-08-2004, 07:28 AM
Hello everyone
Will the 109 elevator heaviness be revised in the upcoming patch?
S!

Pilas

LeadSpitter_
07-08-2004, 10:44 AM
they can out turn almost all aircraft by just trottling back, and combat flaps.

f2 f4 g2 g6 with 50-75 fuel no 108 cannon in the g6 can seem to outturn the p40 lagg3 mig la5 7 hurricane p51 and spitfire so easily just by trottling back. Even tho all the sustained turn rates are spot on to the test charts. The max turn ability seems strange bleeding E and being able to accelarate quickly is why the 109s are able to do this.

I dont know how fast a 109 suppost to be able to decelerate to be honest but it seems wrong. Noway a 3 bladed prop can slow an aircraft down that much just by trottling back.

If we had carriers you can succesfully land a 109 on a carrier deck no problem without any hooks the way it can trottle back, its short landing ability coming to a full stop so quickly. Maybe they will address the 109s trottle back ability. As you know online flying the 109 or against it got a plane on your tail trottle back and you got the kill. Every person uses this who flies the 109 including myself. Go fly online and take 10 tracks and see my point http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ask any good 109 pilot the trottle back turn ability is what makes them do so well and they have the ability to out turn most aircraft. Except when carring the 108cannon and 100 fuel.

this is why the vvs are doing so horable in VEF becuase of the 109s super deceleration ability and accelaration. The la7s controlls lock up much worse then the 109s elevator at speed but the la7 cant trottle back so fast the 109 can which is why its beating it in turnfights below 5000m

The 109 is an ultimate turn fighter in this sim downlow and up high, it actually seems to do better as a turn fighter then a bnzing aircraft in this sim.

I feel 190s should have more elevator effectiveness just by design. Its elevator is almost identical to the p51 small long thin narrow elevator which was good for high speed manuverability and low speed handling.

Something is seriously wrong with the p47s drag you bleed off 990+kmph to 460kmph from a 90 degree straight down dive gradualy recovering to 15 degrees with nose nose slightly pitched down with trim. Using full power 110 trottle wep 100 pitch.

If you use 0 pitch which is producing no trust your able to maintain the higher speed longer and not bleed it off so quicky. CEM is very strange in this sim.

you can basically tell an aircraft flight characteristics by weight, wing lift, aileron, elevator and rudder size.

large wide ailerons and C elevator design offered great low speed handling but high speed they reduced significantly.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Thu July 08 2004 at 09:55 AM.]

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2004, 04:16 PM
Leadspitter, he's not talking about yanking and banking, but simple DIVE RECOVERY. Just going from nose down to nose up. No sideways involved.

The 109 has been singled out for having an especially hard to move, low response elevator in this sim. The effect is that, even if you throttle back and dive shallowly, you very quickly hit the concrete elevator point of about 420kph (just over just 250mph) you can't recover from a dive nearly as quickly as all your adversaries can. They simply pull up into you to escape. Provided they're much lower on energy and your dive is not a power-on, high angle dive, that should be a recipe for disaster. But, it's just an easy escape in this sim.


Also, since you waste precious seconds just getting your nose pointed upwards again, you lose much more of your energy advantage that you had from the altitude you dove from. Many times, you're either forced to "loop fight" (in which the enemy holds all the cards), forced into a turnfight (ditto), or you find yourself recovering under a now-alerted enemy.

====================================
Leadspitter wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Something is seriously wrong with the p47s drag you bleed off 990+kmph to 460kmph from a 90 degree straight down dive gradualy recovering to 15 degrees with nose nose slightly pitched down with trim. Using full power 110 trottle wep 100 pitch.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you talking about here? A full power, plus WEP dive in a P-47 with nose DOWN trim is a recipe for an uncontrolled lawndart. That must be what the deceleration is...impact.

NO plane of this vintage dives 100 throttle+WEP at 90 degrees down. Even a Stuka pulls the throttle all the way back and engages the dive brake before going that far nose down. And P-47s, even though they were rugged, excellent divers, would auger in if pushed too hard in a dive. Those Wasps were heavy engines and the Jug itself was a pretty thick piece of machine. Early on, the Brits were scared silly of diving that thing, and were glad the Yanks had them. Of course, that was before they had the impact they did on the daylight bomber escorts.

[This message was edited by Stiglr on Thu July 08 2004 at 03:26 PM.]

NorrisMcWhirter
07-09-2004, 07:05 AM
Hi,

Aye....I've never flown a 109 IRL but it sure has a heavy elevator for a BnZ beast and it seems to have become worse as time has gone on.

P51 and 190 have good elevator response (both having that unusual flop effect, easily felt with FFB) but 109 just keeps it's nose down.

Function of design/cockpit tightness or porked?

Cheers,
Norris

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Kurfurst__
07-09-2004, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
they can out turn almost all aircraft by just trottling back, and combat flaps.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is not the question. The question is wheter they will correct the 109`s high speed elevator response, which is gives ~50% worser turn rates at high speeds than historically should be. I guess everyone here seen the thread where this was shown very well, and I think 98% of the Allied-fans are convinced as well - save those few die hard types.

So not that I am saying you should outturn the opposition also at high speeds with the 109s, but you should fare much, much better than with it in (high speed) turning than currently - it`s a rightful question wheter this will be fixed. After all, being 50% worser is a HUGE disadvantage.

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

geetarman
07-09-2004, 11:16 AM
Stigler's right - you want to get away from a 109 if he's behind your Mustang? Put it in a steep dive, pick-up speed and then yank back. You may black out a bit, but, the 109s can't follow - no way, no how. You'll be way up above them in no time. Then simply roll your plane and you'll come out above and behind him. Now you control the fight.

I have no idea if this is accurate but, that's the way it is in the game.

HQ1
07-09-2004, 11:51 AM
now i seldom fly 109 because i cannot do BZ in it .in this game its a pure crapy turn fighter.

pilas-
07-09-2004, 06:12 PM
Thx for the really nice tips leadspitter, S!, but the question was really about 109 elevator response at high airspeeds. It seems a bit exagerated the compression efect on the elevator.

S! All

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2004, 08:48 PM
Actually, I'm not sure if it's just that the 109 is overly penalized, or that other planes just get a "pass" on the concrete elevator effect until much faster, but the 109 gets all the effects and then some.

ALL planes of this vintage were subject to needing high control surface forces to pull them out of power dives. But some planes in this sim will raise the nose if you just think about backstick, no matter what the speed is. I'm here to tell ya it isn't so.

Now, the 109 would get a really stiff stick past a certain speed; I'm just not so sure the effect started at just 420kph (which is just over 250 mph).

That's the problem: when the 109 begins losing its elevator control authority many other planes are still well in their dogfight comfort zones. They just merrily loop away with no ill effects, and rob the 109 of its ability to B&Z, it's ability to recover from an attack dive, and often, it's option to climb away (simply because it ends up beneath the enemy it just dove on when the enemy pulls up into the attack).

LLv34_Flanker
07-10-2004, 12:33 AM
S!

The elevator isuue on Bf109 is odd, but I've had to learn to live with it. It will never change no matter what, any other plane than Bf109 and P38 will enjoy the EZFlight(tm) FM http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

About reducing throttle in turns. After talking to some Finnish vets about it became clearer. Ky√¬∂sti Karhila, with over 30 kills on his credit, said that he throttled back in his Bf109 to tighten the turning. He said that when using full power of the DB605A-1 the plane just pulled itseld ahead so strongly thuis reducing turn. Flaps were NOT used, too slow and risky according to this gent.

IMO the FM is stretched to it's limits and we will be sufffering of the anomalies until BoB comes out with it's new FM engine. Before that we have to take what the developer gives, sad but true.

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BfHeFwMe
07-10-2004, 02:35 PM
Don't know how many times I've got to say it, but your all still barking up the wrong tree. It needs to get the movable stab modeled that it historically had. There's a reason why all of the heaviest airlifter types in the world have both movable tail stabs along with their regular elevator trim.

Trim via an elevator tab compared to a moveable stab is not the same, neither are all it's effects. There's a reason why they stuck with the movable stabs over tab in many of the later designs.

Guess which one has better economomy and flight efficiency, allows greater center of gravity control for hauling massive weights, and has more overall pitch setting control and without inflicting any heavy control forces from the elevator itself as a fully trimmed tab will do.

LeadSpitter_
07-10-2004, 03:46 PM
even speeds of 700+ with the 109s in a dive i just trottle back hit combat flaps and you instantly slow down and can pull up. Looks at the la7 and la5 now they have almost twice the elevator stick force high speed the 109s have and cant slow down to instantly get out of the dive like the 109s. Flaps and trottling back help the la5 la7 but noway near how effective the 109s can trottle back and decelerate even in a dive to counter the heavy elevator.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-10-2004, 08:05 PM
Instantly slow down and pull up? Nonsense. Pure, unadulterated, bull****. Or horse****, pick your animal.

For one thing, at 700kph, any flaps you have down will stay that way for the rest of the sortie, if not ripping away.

Secondly, you can get the concrete elevator effect even if you dive in the *right* way, e.g., throttle way back and dive in shallowly.

It simply doesn't work the way you describe, Leadspitter. And after your comments about break turns (irrelevant to this discussion) and P-47s at full power in 90 degree dives, I'd think you might just want to stop embarassing yourself by imparting your "knowledge".

LEXX_Luthor
07-10-2004, 10:02 PM
FB's MiG~3 has the same mid to high speed elevator issue as 109.

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crazyivan1970
07-10-2004, 11:15 PM
Ok, i know it sounds rather scary, But... i tend to agree with Stigler...cough cough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I think other planes are overdone. 190s, Mustangs, Spits, P-47, TA152 to some extent. I fly them all and i think 5+ tons plane at 500+ km/h should not be as responcive. But that just me...

V!
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NN_Tym
07-11-2004, 12:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:

For one thing, at 700kph, any flaps you have down will stay that way for the rest of the sortie, if not ripping away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Utter lie. You can deploy combat flaps at any speed with no adverse effects, at least on my version of AEP (2.1)...

Kurfurst__
07-11-2004, 04:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
even speeds of 700+ with the 109s in a dive i just trottle back hit combat flaps and you instantly slow down and can pull up<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh, Lead, again the issue is not that you can slow down and pullup. Butchk2 already showed quite a couple of sources which show it wasn`t nearly as bad, or happening so early than it does in the game. And certainly not one of these show the need to slow down, drop flaps and do other tricks. Yes, the 109 had worser elevator authority than many others, but the point is that this is vastly overdone currently. Also I agree with Ivan that on the other hand, some planes are greatly overdone in their elevator effectiveness at high speeds - namely the FW 190 and P-51. These planes loose absolutely no effectiveness at high speed, which is greatly suspicious to me - in view of the respective battlefield and pilot reports on them.


For christ`s sake, realise at last that you SHOULD NOT need to slow down in order to have some elevator authority! You are right in the Soviet planes being very heavy as well at speeds, but that`s fairly irrevelant to the subject until someone comes up with test and show this is incorrect, TOO.

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

LeadSpitter_
07-11-2004, 06:11 AM
it works for me stiglr, and as you all know i fly all 109s alot and do extremely well in them.

Also im suprised someone whos played that long doesnt know combat flaps dont ripp off at any speed in fb or jam.

By far the 109s and 190 aircraft are the easiest to get kills in 1 shot 1 kill. The only time i reached over 5000pts in warclouds was in the 190a9 no vulches in short time. 109s i get around 3000+ with the p51 im able to break 1000 but you have to work so much harder to get a kill. Im still able to get high points in the stang but it takes almost twice as long to achieve that.

I agree with you that the high speed handling without trottling back should have slightly less stick pressure or add it to all aircraft but at slightly higher speeds for the mustang me262 190 which had better high speed handling. I also think oleg needs to make the 109 trottle back alot slower, you can land on a airfield and come to a complete stop within 4 109 aircraft lenghts. Thats shorter then a carrier and every 109 pilot knows we trottle back when an aircraft is on us and usually get in a advantage point.

jg53s 335th jv44 wuafs which are some of the best german pilots i think and really know how to handle thier aircraft do this everytime.

Same with the soviet aircraft. I always "whined" about having heavier stick pressures/compressibility on all aircraft not just a few.

From what I read past 750-900 in dives 190s mustangs p47s could overspeed and felt like the control surfaces where concrete "two hands on the stick" aircraft having to trim out of exceeded dive speed. I seen alot of people say even past 1000kmph the aircraft has uneffected controls which is noway true in my eyes even 600kmph teh aircraft should experience stick lighter pressures faster they go should expeirence heavier pressure in the elevator.

Looking at the roll charts you can see when the aileron stick pressures start effecting the roll at what point it starts to reduce im sure the elevators are experiencing the same forces

Im not a big fan of the mustang wing falling off at as low as 520 from giving it rudder, I know it happens to the 190d and ta152 but never as low as 520 i can stick yank like crazy and its fine unless over 700kmph+ using alot of rudder

It seems they did that to the p51 190 me262 the aircraft that had such unrealistic elevator effect at speed of 900kmph+ I rather see them just slow the elevator effect down at those speeds which seems to be possible seeing the 109 and russian aircraft.

But its not our game its oleg and teams and they have the final say in what ever opinion he has and books he read to think its the way it is. Even tho its all the community making ubi get its money

Just by the airfoil of the wing weight aileron size elevator size and rudder size and fuselage shape. You can tell how an aircraft reacted at speed and slow handling.

Another thing I'd like to see is dive accelaration worked on and energy bleed with certain ac. P47 for example and how much bombs and rockets effect some aircraft p47 me262 190 bf110 p51 p38 but others like the p40 109s and russian aircraft dont seem to be affected much at all by bombs rockets and drop tanks.

oh well nothing we can do about it but enjoy the game how it is.

Remember the p40 p47 b239 in 1.0, they use to be the only realistic feelin ac to me, how they simulated stick pressures seemed perfect but seems they got changed to match the other aircraft becuase they couldnt compete with the 109s, jug was dogmeat for a 190 still is even with a 4000m adv and the b239 stood absolutly no chance vs the i153 and i16.

Maybe for BOB they can add in some other mode we can change fm performance from in game, climb, roll, dive accelaration, stick pressures, dms within certain limits, only in that mode the hosts settings will be what everyone uses using SFS so olegs stuff cant be touch for stock games.

If the user has customs the gametype will say custom settings and show them.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Sun July 11 2004 at 05:34 AM.]

WWMaxGunz
07-11-2004, 07:04 AM
Game the game where the game ain't right, but it ruins the sim and theer's a word that
begins to apply -- ar-tic? noooo ar-madillo? nooooooo

I'm sure that whatever problem there is it is made worse by people who don't use the sim
as a sim. They don't bother to learn the ins and outs of CEM, which hey has one or two
holes big enough to allow major exploits anyway. Ditto the flaps, the props, the games
with throttle/engine to allow well, watch the tracks of the "world championship".

So we have a sim that models things no one else does but not only allows misuse but rewards
it and then we have complaints in two or more directions.

And LS, I can slow a CSP plane down pretty well by cutting power with pitch at 100 and not
worry in the slightest about blowing the engine. But it's not like a drag chute. Please,
how fast can you go from 500kph down to 200 while maintaining flight and with what model
109? Don't compare, just show what is done and how for the one wrong.


Neal

pourshot
07-11-2004, 07:19 AM
Now dont shoot me down in flames here as I really dont know how this works, but is it true that the 109's elevator trim was in fact the entire horizontal stabilizer?

If so when you trim up and make a dive do the stick forces get lighter or stay the same even though it is pulling up with ease, does that make sence?

I mean why would the stick get lighter if the trim tab is not attached to the elevator it self?

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BfHeFwMe
07-11-2004, 07:18 PM
It wouldn't change stick forces, ever, the force will be speed dependant solely, it's the only thing affecting the elevator force.

The stab set for slightly positive pitch at higher combat or cruise speeds should self pull out of the higher speed dives automatically. This doesn't happen in game, your locked nose down and must actively trim your tabs like the rest. None of it's advantages are modeled.

XyZspineZyX
07-11-2004, 11:47 PM
Leadspitter wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>oh well nothing we can do about it but enjoy the game how it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true. Some fanbois call it whining...but others of us just call it "calling Oleg on his BS". Fact is, for all the good stuff that's in this sim, there is also a lot of spotty fact checking, out and out inaccuracies, and a sprinkling of b-, uh, b-... I can't seem to spit it out, but you know what I'm saying. And although Oleg has dug in his heels on a few things, like muzzle EXPLOSIONS, and the FW190 cockpit view, there are some other things, like the "banana peel stall" that moved between the 109F's, 109G2 and whichever 109 model the team wanted to pork at the moment; the p*ss-stained canopy glass (since well toned down if not removed from all late models of 109s); and other things that we 'whiners' complained about long enough to get changed. If you have some facts to stand on, or can simply uncover the fallacy behind something that's wrong in the sim, it *may* get changed. That, to me, is a good enough reason to bring these things up, and keep harping on them until they get fixed.

Yes, you can just take what's shoveled to you, and just learn to game the game. I don't look at it that way. There were many lessons to be learned in WWII about flying, and I use them; and I expect the game to validate them, not teh other way around. Some work, others don't according to this sim. And I'll continue to point out the ones the sim doesn't allow to work.

===================================

Also, I don't know what sim you're playing, but if I don't retract flaps in a 109 during a dive before a certain speed, they stay down (trust me; I have that godd*** "sub klaxon" sound to remind me for the rest of the sortie). It might not be at the maneuver setting, but they jam and they stay jammed. That's a plain and simple FACT.

NN_Tym
07-12-2004, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:

Also, I don't know what sim you're playing, but if I don't retract flaps in a 109 during a dive before a certain speed, they stay down (trust me; I have that godd*** "sub klaxon" sound to remind me for the rest of the sortie). It might not be at the maneuver setting, but they jam and they stay jammed. That's a plain and simple FACT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Fact ?

Okay, take AEP 2.1. With the quick mission generator choose a Bf109G2 (for example), set initial altitude to 10'000 m.

Choose full realism settings. Start the mission. Dive to the ground, deploy combat flaps... Wait till the speed makes the plane shake, now try to retract the flaps.

According to you, it should not be possible. Everyone will be able to replicate the experiment and see that the flaps just DON'T jam.

All the planes I have tried so far exhibit the same behaviour : combat flaps never jam due to speed. They used to in Il2, I am sure...

OldMan____
07-12-2004, 05:05 AM
have to agree that at least for me they never jammed in combat mode, but I only fly FW190.so could be differente with other planes.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

WWMaxGunz
07-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Maybe if you drop em well over jam speed they don't jam but if you drop em below that
speed and then go faster to above it checks and jams em? Code works like that sometimes,
when a check is only made in one circumstance but not another. If this is the case then
you're probably not supposed to be able to drop flaps above some speed but the code to
keep that from happening isn't. So, you all might be right. That's the trouble with
mixing up sim reality with actual working material things, the sim only does what the
code makes it do where the real things behave by the default full set of actual physics.


Neal

NN_Tym
07-13-2004, 08:36 AM
Whatever the way you deploy them, they won't jam. Only if you go for take-off flpas will they jam. Combat flaps never jammed in any of my tests.

It is clear that someone out there said something untrue, without taking the pain to test it beforehand.

If I was paranoid, I would ask why ?

dadada1
07-13-2004, 08:52 AM
Take away these exaggerated handling characteristics from all aircraft and you're going to end up with all aircraft feeling the same.

Functio
07-13-2004, 09:30 AM
The way that the 109 elevators start to lock up at around 400kph is IMHO a little overzealous, seeing that this speed is pretty much it's cruising speed. Thus one would hope that it would still be able to manourver effectively at such a speed - not so in FB/AEP.

WRT the 109s decelerating into low speed - remember that their automatic systems adjusted the prop pitch on the fly - other aircraft have to do this manually when going into lower throttle settings and any situations that need them. Any Allied plane can take advantage of teh way this system works in this sim when trying to get out of the fight, because the auto system is slow to react to throttle increases. This is another thing that needs to be looked at IMHO - the way things are at the moment, aircraft with manual pitch control don't have to really do much and their aircraft are fine in most speed and throttle regimes. Thus, they have an advantage over the more advanced automatic systems. You don't have to think much at all about prop pitch with manual planes, and they respond much better to throttle input - which is not how it should be.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2004, 11:29 AM
It may be that, because I use all three stages of flaps during fighting, that I may be jamming "takeoff" flaps... and the combat flaps *by themselves* won't jam. Naturally, if you jam a higher level of flaps you can't get back to combat flaps, since they're jammed.

I don't know how *true* or *accurate* it is, but perhaps that's why they're called combat flaps, since you can use them at high speed and they won't jam. As opposed to the takeoff and landing flaps, which are only *supposed* to be used for those operations... but do come in handy tactically for stallfighting, and for hammerhead reverses at low speed at the apex of a climb.

Functio
07-13-2004, 03:21 PM
The fact that people use flaps in such a way (i.e. landing and take-off flaps) just goes to show that how they work and any penalties they do or don't incur just isn't right in this sim. The way they work, and the way energy is modelled in this sim really needs adressing - or, at least, one hopes the whole system gets overhauled in BoB.

Atzebrueck
07-13-2004, 03:48 PM
Regarding the combat flaps: As far as I can tell, every plane can lower them without jamming.

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NN_Tym
07-14-2004, 01:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
It may be that, because I use all three stages of flaps during fighting, that I may be jamming "takeoff" flaps... and the combat flaps *by themselves* won't jam. Naturally, if you jam a higher level of flaps you can't get back to combat flaps, since they're jammed.

I don't know how *true* or *accurate* it is, but perhaps that's why they're called combat flaps, since you can use them at high speed and they won't jam. As opposed to the takeoff and landing flaps, which are only *supposed* to be used for those operations... but do come in handy tactically for stallfighting, and for hammerhead reverses at low speed at the apex of a climb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nice (and sad) example of "gaming the game"...

LLv34_Flanker
07-14-2004, 04:28 AM
S!

Well..all this flap-discussion is like a pot blaming the kettle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif All use them to some degree because the flakey FM allows it so why argue over it at all?! We won't see any big enhancements in the FM department until BoB, BeSure(Tm) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

---------------------------

Flanker
1.Lentue p√¬§√¬§llikk√¬∂ / TO
Lentolaivue 34

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Alexander Kyzminykh
07-14-2004, 04:37 AM
Leadspitter I am curious to see how a Me can outcurve anything singel-engined.
Give me a trackfile to se how you do.

Lets get things right, this game is done to satisfy pilots that fly Allied planes in general and russian planes in particular.
The design is biased against LW planes.
Look at FW cockpit, ammo-effects, damageprofile of Me109, how could the FW 190 A2 dominate the skies over France during 1942 against spitfire V, etc etc.
Look at the thruth of losslist during the great patriotic war. They can give you a hint about how it was.

And stop call the people with different point of view whiner you licker.

dadada1
07-14-2004, 05:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
they can out turn almost all aircraft by just trottling back, and combat flaps.

f2 f4 g2 g6 with 50-75 fuel no 108 cannon in the g6 can seem to outturn the p40 lagg3 mig la5 7 hurricane p51 and spitfire so easily just by trottling back. Even tho all the sustained turn rates are spot on to the test charts. The max turn ability seems strange bleeding E and being able to accelarate quickly is why the 109s are able to do this.

I dont know how fast a 109 suppost to be able to decelerate to be honest but it seems wrong. Noway a 3 bladed prop can slow an aircraft down that much just by trottling back.

If we had carriers you can succesfully land a 109 on a carrier deck no problem without any hooks the way it can trottle back, its short landing ability coming to a full stop so quickly. Maybe they will address the 109s trottle back ability. As you know online flying the 109 or against it got a plane on your tail trottle back and you got the kill. Every person uses this who flies the 109 including myself. Go fly online and take 10 tracks and see my point http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ask any good 109 pilot the trottle back turn ability is what makes them do so well and they have the ability to out turn most aircraft. Except when carring the 108cannon and 100 fuel.

this is why the vvs are doing so horable in VEF becuase of the 109s super deceleration ability and accelaration. The la7s controlls lock up much worse then the 109s elevator at speed but the la7 cant trottle back so fast the 109 can which is why its beating it in turnfights below 5000m

The 109 is an ultimate turn fighter in this sim downlow and up high, it actually seems to do better as a turn fighter then a bnzing aircraft in this sim.

I feel 190s should have more elevator effectiveness just by design. Its elevator is almost identical to the p51 small long thin narrow elevator which was good for high speed manuverability and low speed handling.

Something is seriously wrong with the p47s drag you bleed off 990+kmph to 460kmph from a 90 degree straight down dive gradualy recovering to 15 degrees with nose nose slightly pitched down with trim. Using full power 110 trottle wep 100 pitch.

If you use 0 pitch which is producing no trust your able to maintain the higher speed longer and not bleed it off so quicky. CEM is very strange in this sim.

you can basically tell an aircraft flight characteristics by weight, wing lift, aileron, elevator and rudder size.

large wide ailerons and C elevator design offered great low speed handling but high speed they reduced significantly.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Thu July 08 2004 at 09:55 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course you can decelerate quicker in a 109 than any of the above mentioned, it has auto prop pitch, the others don't. If you use CEM it's more complex to throttle down and adjust pitch at the same time.

NN_Tym
07-14-2004, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Flanker:
S!

Well..all this flap-discussion is like a pot blaming the kettle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif All use them to some degree because the flakey FM allows it so why argue over it at all?! We won't see any big enhancements in the FM department until BoB, BeSure(Tm) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I see it the other way round. Most people that post here, post to make there favourite ride get the best out of the game.

When something is fishy as the flaps, the trim, and all the problem that plague the simulation, not that many poeple will complain, if it can give their favourite ride an adge, or if there are used to used this trick from another simulation.

I think the first thing to do is to make sure that the imput devices (throttle, prop pitch, trims, flaps, joystick, brakes and rudder) are accurately moddeled and then you can give the planes their true characteristics.

But, what I see is too many poeple whining for their own plane, and some planes get very weird handling if you exploit all the inaccuracies of the inputs modelling...

I am pretty sure that if everybody asked for a better modelling of the inputs, Oleg Maddox and his team would spend more time on the topic, rather than trying to fix all the so-called problems raised by whinners.

NorrisMcWhirter
07-14-2004, 10:40 AM
hehe..

109 has a fast pullout at 700+ ?

cobblers. What I like about the FFB joystick is that it tells you what the difference is between aircraft with that thump when you pull back on the stick in a dive. Do it in a FW190 or P51 and there is a little thump and the nose comes up. Do it in a Bf109 or P38 and there is no thump...and no nose coming up.

I also disagree about it being easier to get kills in the 109 or 190 than any other aircraft. You can get one shot kills if you are not flying against a P47 or P63. Besides, if this were true you would hear claims of them being noobish all over the place whereas you don't. In my experience, it's easier to get kills in a P51 or P40 just because I can disable most planes by giving them a quick squirt on a slashing attack.

Cheers,
NOrris

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Snuff_Pidgeon
07-15-2004, 09:50 AM
In high speed dives i read that the trim was often used on the elevator to pull out of the dive as the stick was way to heavy.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2004, 05:43 PM
NN, if you think dropping full flaps at the top of a hammerhead is gaming the game, you need to learn a bit more about the maneuver.

The higher degree of flaps lowers your stall speed and makes the plane more maneuverable and less prone to "Oleg's Banana Peel Snap Stall" at the top of a climb.

I've already stated the drawback: if you don't retract them before you pick up too much speed, you're hosed, because they'll jam in position and be a boat anchor for the rest of the sortie.

Pilots did and could use higher flap settings than combat flaps in combat.

NN_Tym
07-17-2004, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Pilots did and could use higher flap settings than combat flaps in combat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can you point me to some sources ?

I have read about the use of some flaps in planes with powered flaps (P51, P38), use of a little amount of flaps in stall fights (still very uncommon though).

But I have yet to read about the use of a higher setting of flaps in a fight.

LBR_Rommel
07-17-2004, 11:46 PM
S!
to all of you Gents,

God know how i hate post in this place, because some ppl here have a pleasure to bash Luftwaffe pilots, but here i go.

I love this game, really love it (thats for u Oleg), and im on it since IL2, Flying BF109g6as against LA5 almost everyday, im no ww2 aircraft expert ok, but i will tell u my experience since IL2, in fact some guys like to say that NOW (because of trim and etc.)a BF 109 will turn with anything, thats a complete LIE a bigest BS that i ever heard, so if 109 do a complete turn in high speed with anything post here a track and prove it!!!!, in IL2 was possible for the 109g6as Keep a turn for a few moments with a yak or LA(in slow speed), but only if you are diving in that turn, so i think here will be the same. Now this thing of heavy elevators its a exagerated feature in this game, the claasic thing here is allied planes have a better turning habilitie and germans have to dive and climb for a KILL, but how its possible if the plane freezes on a dive and takes forever to pull up??? its my belive that some heaviness on controls its possible,but in this game only with 109? gravity works only with german planes? I dont want my plane UBER, i just want my plane correct, but not only mine, allied planes too, LA7 turning a 10cents coin and a pilot dont blackout, wich i dont try to follow because my pilot may die because of a long blackout or the DM of the P63.

I think, im not sure, that this heavy elevator report on the Bf109 maybe more a way of thinking than a fact, think about that:

what should be a impression of a REAL Yak/LA7 pilot in the controls of one Bf109 in a turn???
well, he may say its a flying brick.

And for those who like to say that german made **** planes and because of this german planes must suck in this game let me remind you about some high tech of that time: V1(first missel?), V2(First rocket), Me262(jet), He 162(jet),one bomber that i forgot the name(jet), guided bombs and this guys took almost all european countries and took almost half world to stop them, thank God they were stoped.

The war in the air was important, but the REAL victory, to me, was possible only because of mens like Patton, Montgomery, Mcarthur, all those 18/19 boys who gave their lifes in the name of a better world etc.

Now can we come back to game and fix this elevator thing in the bf109?

Major LBR=Rommel

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kubanloewe
07-18-2004, 01:05 AM
Quotation Oleg Maddox: _Users were crying for non-realistic and non-historical and finally they got it...(01.07.04)

Oleg, you will convert this in the Patch 2.04 ?

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OldMan____
07-18-2004, 08:53 AM
Calma Rommel.. um dia eles entendem.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Gravity works only with german planes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's about what it amounts to. Not only with elevators, but with 20mm ballistics too.

Any mid- to late war plane can shake a 109 simply by pulling up and beginning a series of what I call "Yeltsin loops". A 109 with any kind of speed cannot stay with this because his elevator is compromised in comparison to most others.

ASH at S-MART
07-18-2004, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LBR_Rommel:
And for those who like to say that german made **** planes and because of this german planes must suck in this game let me remind you about some high tech of that time: V1(first missel?), V2(First rocket), Me262(jet), He 162(jet),one bomber that i forgot the name(jet), guided bombs and this guys took almost all european countries and took almost half world to stop them, thank God they were stoped.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, actually the Germans should be thanking God they gave up before we showed them the FAT BOY! (First Atomic Bomb) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ASH HOUSEWARES GROOVY (http://www.garnersclassics.com/wavs/army/groovy.wav)
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